David Josephs

The Miller thread was what I referred to originally... I was not convinced that Hudson was in willis5 and nothing posted has shown he was either behind the other man or the lamppost... The willis crop does not extend far enough to the left to show the men on the landing imo... Biggest problem with the willis image is the lack of a white hat (unless deeply in shadows) on BDM Sure be nice if Emmett had said something about the woman/baby, or guy in an army uniform, or a mysterious guy with a rifle hanging out back there as he walked to his spot.... once again... nice chatting with ya Bernice... DJ

Thanks Bernice... I agree that Hudson does talk about the other 2 men with him.... there are no images of him sitting there with them, or the younger man, prior to willis5. Yet no one asks him how he gets from the tool shed to the stairs or if he passes anyone enroute... He'd have to walk right past BMD's position. I've also been told that he actually IS in willis5, better versions of the photo make it more apparent yet I have seen no post of any image that indicates Hudson is indeed there. Even a close examination of willis 5 in TKoaAP does not make it appear as if he's there. If Don is around, I would love to know why he concludes Hudson was not there at z202 beyond the obvious - he's not in the photo. DJ

After searching the forum and looking at John's Index I did not find a thread dealing with an issue I raised at Lancer but was not satisfied with the answers... To summerize... Hudson was at the toolshed and then he is standing up with the younger man we see in this image... yet we do not see Hudson at 202 in Willis From Hudson's WC testimony Mr. LIEBELER - Would you tell us where you were on November 22, 1963, at around noon, around the time the Presidential motorcade came by? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I was over there next to that T. & P. Railroad yard where the little toolshed was. Mr. LIEBELER - What was the nearest intersection to where you were? Mr. HUDSON - Elm. Mr. LIEBELER - Elm and What? Mr. HUDSON - Houston. Mr. LIEBELER - Elm and Houston? Do Ihave the correct tool shed?? Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was standing on those steps that came straight down to Elm there, just above that triple underpass, I was about halfway between the tripple underpass and Houston, where the steps are - somewhere near about halfway. Mr. LIEBELER - I show you a photograph which is No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. It depicts the street and the triple underpass. Can you show us on that picture, if that picture shows it the place where you were standing? Could this be the route he takes to the steps which takes him right past the BDM position? Mr. HUDSON - Well, I was right along - you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, I'll say a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and I was standing on this - that would be somewhere around along about there. Mr. LIEBELER - Let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that. Mr. HUDSON - Right along about there. Mr. LIEBELER - It was right here where I have placed this "X", is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; right along in there. >>> I could not find a single one of the CE875 photos has an "X" on it<<<< Mr. LIEBELER - So, you were standing about where I placed the "X" on photograph No. 18 of Commission Exhibit No. 875. Tell me what you saw - tell me what happened to the best of your recollection. Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side? Mr. HUDSON - Right hand. Finally, in Don's plaza graphic it shows: So unless it has changes, and I just linked to the graphic from Don's recent post, he believes Hudson was not yet there at 202... 1 - How early does Hudson actually get to the steps? 2 - is he seen in wills 5 ? 3 - Could he be the blur of BDM in both Betzner and Willis? Cause we know it was not Gordon Arnold who should be farther back to the right on his "mound" of earth closer to the fence. Could Hudson have gotten from BDM position to what we see in Muchmore? We do not see the steps or the BDM position until z282 equivilent in Muchmoore. 202 thru 282 is a bit more than 4 seconds... to walk 15 steps?

No kidding. Just ask Don Adams. He's got eleven shots being fired from God knows how many guns. And Bob Groden is almost as bad. Bob has 8 to 10 shots being fired from at least 3 or 4 locations. I think a better question for the conspiracy theorists who think LHO was set up and framed as a lone patsy would be: WHY would any of the conspirators have even WANTED to risk the whole "patsy" ballgame by utilizing two, three, or four gunmen in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63? DVP - what answer, if any, would you be willing to have a real discussion about rather than the eye-rolling, name calling BS you usually post? WHY anyone, or a group of anyones WANTS to do anything is and will always be pure speculation - and you know that, which is why I assume you even ask the question that way. Be like you trying to tell me WHY Oswald WANTED to do it.... you can't know for sure, even if Oswald was to have been quoted as saying, "I killed JFK because....." The only things you cannot refute are the facts and as we've seen in post after post, all you have against the facts is eye-rolling and insults. Your one sided persecution of LHO in the face of a mountain of evidence borders on maniacal. Have you never simply stepped back and began anew? Without preconception or conclusion and look at what you believe to be reasonable arguments from both sides - or are you such the LHO zealot that reason and discussion do not have a place. That objective discussion, research and investigation is simply not allowed? What concerns me most is your inability to accept that there is an opposing argument. that it is valid and well supported. while time and time again your WCR evidence is shown to be badly flawwed and in most cases inadmissable as evidence. So I'll ask you... why assassinate the president and then deny it if at each point along the process you are going to CONSCIOUSLY leave clues that lead directly back to you? Oswald orders the rifle and gun as Hidell - while keeping multiple wallets with Hidell AND Oswald identification together Oswald somehow gets ammunition for the MC Oswald goes to Mexico City and is recorded on the telephone exhibiting very suspicious behavior Oswald carries the rifle to work in a paper bag Oswald builds the rifle and sniper's nest (with an absolute minimum of fingerprints) Oswald waits until the very last second, knowing full well that JFK's limo will be late, to get into position Oswald fires three shots, 2 of which are the most incredible in the history of gun fire Oswald flees the scene but leaves behind the rifle, the shells, the clip(?) and the paper bag supposedly with his fingerprints Oswald encounters Truly and Baker, and yet, after pulling off the most daring assassination in history - is calm and unaware Oswald casually walks out the front door and within 20 minutes of the assassination is basically a free man except for the enormous paper and evidence trail he's left behind, at his own hand and with no indication of any attempt to hide or conceal his actions so this basically free man, who has in the months prior been shown to drive, practice with the rifle, get the scope mounted, shoot at Walker, talk about killing the president to a number of people, go to Mexico where even more incriminating evidence is generated by none other than Oswald himself. After all of this David, he's going to say he didn't do it, that he was a patsy due to his Russian past, and that he needs Abt to represent him. He says he didn't kill anyone. Now, if you have the sincerity of purpose you proport to have, please read thru http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/26th_Issue/2_lho.html and see how your WCR evidence is at the very least questionable, which in turn creates a thing called REASONABLE DOUBT. You simply cannot convict Oswald because you feel like it. As long as there is any reasonable doubt - which there obviously is - guilt is not an option. Unlike the others though, I will not be getting into a discussion over this, or any other topic with you for it is obvious to me you "aint gonn alearn what you dont want to know". You remind me of Ptolemy.... Ptolemy, however, claimed to have derived his geometrical models from selected astronomical observations by his predecessors spanning more than 800 years, though astronomers have for centuries suspected that his models' parameters were adopted independently of observations. (just like you DVP... independent of the facts and observation, you refuse to consider anything in opposition to your OPINION.) Ptolemy's model, like those of his predecessors, was geocentric and was almost universally accepted until the appearance of simpler heliocentric models during the scientific revolution. The prevailing theory in Europe as Copernicus was writing was that created by Ptolemy in his Almagest, dating from about 150 A.D. Through the Middle Ages it was spoken of as the authoritative text on astronomy, with its author becoming an almost mythical figure, called Ptolemy, King of Alexandria. The Ptolemaic system drew on many previous theories that viewed Earth as a stationary center of the universe. Stars were embedded in a large outer sphere which rotated relatively rapidly, while the planets dwelt in smaller spheres between—a separate one for each planet. To account for apparent anomalies in this view, such as the apparent retrograde motion of the planets, a system of deferents and epicycles was used. The planet was said to revolve in a small circle (the epicycle) about a center, which itself revolved in a larger circle (the deferent) about a center on or near the Earth. Oswald did it = the world is flat and everything revolves around the Earth Either one is easily provable, providing one does not look at the arguments against.

The CE399 in evidence was NOT the bullet identified as the one found on the stretcher at Parkland. Not a single person who handled the bullet found on the stretcher said it was the same as CE399. The fact that something is entered into evidence does not automatically give it a supportable chain of evidence nor is it irrefutable. If those who handled it can not identify it AND the chain of possession is not firmly established the value as a piece of evidence is greatly diminished. Regarding the shells, DVP, there is also testimony in evidence that the shells were bunched together when first discovered, that they were picked up and put back down prior to the photos (as were the boxes by the window). If we are to accept CE399 on face value then we must also accept other testimony that appears as evidence in the WCR, right? Please explain how one of those shells has 2 firing pin marks, or the one with a bent lip. and how the MC even came into Oswald's possession, etc, etc... A rifle fires a bullet that, when recovered, has not a single shred of evidence that it actually hit anyone - no bone, blood, fibers, nothing.... - but is proven to have been fired from a rifle that originally is found not to have ANY of Oswald's fingerprints, any means of coming into Oswald's possession and is not seen entering the TSBD with Oswald that morning. Finally, you still haven't explained why Oswald was not up at the Sniper's Nest before 12:15 since he was all alone and had no way of knowing when the motorcade would pass... It was just luck that the plane was 20 minutes late??? I am not saying evidence was faked... just that your case hinges on tying the bullets to the rifle to Oswald being in a position to use them - the evidence contradicts this at every point... or at least puts enough reasonable doubt as to question the actual conclusion.

All that can be stated as fact is that JFK was assassinated by a 6.5mm Model 91/38 Short Rifle, which weapon was found on the sixth floor of the TSDB. You had me right up until that one Thomas.... I thought all we can state as fact was that bullet and bullet fragments entered into evidence were traced back to have been fired from one of the weapons found that day... while supposedly found on the 6th floor, there are numerous contridictions to that statement as well - a Mr. Weitzman comes to mind as well as numerous statements by Insp Sawyer. When those bullets or fragments were fired, where they come from as evidence and where they come from when/where purchased are still big questions. There were no fragments taken from JFK or Connally that can be traced back to that rifle In fact, the particle cloud in JFK's skull contradicts this weapon AND this ammunition... From where do we find this FACT supported? To Mark's point about the MC - wasn't there discussion of Oswald being involved in a rifle Mail-order sting which was the reason for the alias and the order in the first place? Something tells me there is some twisted back story to the M/C yet again involving spooks messing with each other... just a hunch. DJ

David, What or who do we know Oswald to have been? Just curious... --Thomas Thomas, I am referring to the general impression of Oswald being much more than the lowly clerk/book order packer compared to the other employees doing virtually the same thing. He gave the impression he was educated, strongly opinionated and involved in activities well beyond the TSBD employee exterior. I've done my fair share of reading but am definitely NOT an Oswald expert by any means. I guess I am purely trying to understand why Oswald would immediately talk about being a patsy and the Russians (thank you Jim R.) if he actually did it.... Knowing he didn't do it he must have a reason for saying what he does... maybe protecting himself (starting his defense as mentioned), maybe doing exactly what he was told to do if he was caught, Pretty risky to just blurt out you're a patsy on the belief that powerful forces are keeping the US & USSR apart and that he had seen it first hand... if he was that smart he must have know he was signing his death warrant yet at the same time he says virtually nothing in the interviews - or at least what we've read of the interviews - about this... ? Finally, as I watch the clip of his press conference, he - to me at least - is incredulous about being charged with JFK's murder... it just seems he simply can't believe it had gone that far. So I will somewhat retract the statement as speaking abit over my head on the subject... it just doesn;t seem in character given what I've learned about Oswald leading up to that moment. and Jim R... thanks for your post - I was aware of most of that and believe you are on to something with McCloy yet also get the impression that a number of "players" within our government may have also been playing a little game with each other, as spooks do, so that we'd all be doing the "who dunit" shuffle years down the road... and wind up as we are, with multiple people either at or sharing the top of this pyramid and finding it very hard to pinpoint any one without it looking like it was everyone.... and no one at all... {sigh} DJ

The question is: If Oswald didn't do it, why did whoever did it need a patsy? Doesn't it seem odd that Oswald would go out of his way to ADMIT he was a "patsy" (someone easily fooled, swindled...etc)given who we know him to have been? As opposed to simply saying he had no idea what was going on and that he did not shoot anyone? –noun, plural -sies. Slang . 1. a person who is easily swindled, deceived, coerced, persuaded, etc.; sucker. 2. a person upon whom the blame for something falls; scapegoat; fall guy. 3. a person who is the object of a joke, ridicule, or the like. If Oswald DID do it HE'D need the patsy... or he'd be proud of the fact and want the notoriety like other assassins of our time If Oswald DID do it.. announcing himself a patsy begs the question, "for who?" and deflects some of the blame immediately - reasonable doubt - that at least required investigation. If OSWALD DID do it... and he had no way of influencing the evidence... all the evidence would ultimately point to him... not to example after example of evidence tampering, destruction, creation, etc... We absolutely must assume that if Oswald DID NOT DO IT, those who organized and implemented it had to be as close to 100% confident they would not be identified or investigated in any realistic timeframe Option 1 - Kill Oswald 11/22/63 and tell the story as it needs to be told with supporting evidence. Option 2 - Kill Oswald ASAP and tell the story as it needs to be told Option 3 - No option #3... the patsy must die, because HE DID NOT DO IT. If he actually did it there's no need for a patsy... and the tautology continues round and round. Duncan, you keep going back to the word NEED. A scenario in which those that planned it/did it would NOT need a patsy... "Unknown assailants shoot the president and escape" if the motivation behind JFK's death had to do with fighting the spread of communism and the perception JFK was losing that fight... how could we hold our heads up as a leading nation if we could not even find out who killed the president? if we would not show the world how we'd uncover every rock and investigate every lead to find the killer(s). In the initial weeks, finding the killer, arresting him and convicting him was paramount for the charade but not really the plan... Oswald, the patsy had to die. All "official" evidence and documentation supports this conclusion. History is made neat and easy to digest. Asking why "they" needed a patsy is like asking a magician why he needed to misdirect your sight while making his trick work... because the trick does not work any other way. I am speculating here - I believe "The Trick" would not have worked without someone to focus the attention upon. Who "They" are, as you've said... will be pure speculation for quite some time imo....

A patsy was required... and a dead patsy at that.... so there would be no further investigation. So that those that did the deed and more importantly those who orchestrated it, would never be uncovered. Like in Body Heat when Turner supposedly dies in the explosion at the end... if she is dead AND Hurt is the patsy... the case ends and no one goes looking for the pretty women lying on the beach. The perpetrators NEEDED the greatest amount of time before anyone would get suspicious. A dead, convicted patsy accomplishes this.... But he was not dead so the investigation needed to start and end with Oswald (ala Katzenbach's letter) EVERYTHING that was skewed, distorted, falsified, hidden, destroyed, etc... was to focus the guilt on Oswald. If he had been killed prior to capture it would have taken much more time for the likes of Lane and others to not only begin digging... but to get ANY answers. Once Ruby kills Oswald, anyone with a brain has to be suspicious. Kind of like the patsies of Watergate who, imo, to this day have hidden the real reasons behind the breakin... 70+% of the world may still think there was a conspiracy... but the official line is still that Oswald did it... and Osama (or Saddam depending on who you ask) was behind 911... you think Bush and Cheney were worried about being caught??? my .02 DJ

Interesting statement BK... given the Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, etc... when was the last piece of significant legislation that actually GIVES more rights to the people - the last time significant laws were amended or upheld to GIVE or GUARANTEE individual freedoms in the "land of the free, home of the brave"...? just sayin'. preventing laws from being implemented represents unbelievable power when the LNers realize their position reinforces this power and ultimately TAKES from their own freedoms, maybe they'll get it. America is indeed great - when you are free to defend to the death your right to be lied to by the government.. and say "thank you sir", in the process. DJ

that's classic Dean... funny stuff.

Michael... because unlike THEM we feel it only right to discuss the evidence and data to support their positions, not just dismiss them. We hold true to a sense of logic... that when it talks, walks and dumps like a duck and scores of people testify it's a duck, and we have faked photos of the duck driving a car - we can come to conclusions and can test the evidence against it. Unless it has to do with a photograph, Craig has nothing to offer, nothing to say, nothing to prove but to repeat his religious mantra that is the WCR. One can't discuss anything that challenges a religious zealot for his truth is absolute without need for proof or logic. It is because it is.... Lee nailed it... the vast majority of his posts are simply to ask others to prove again what has already been proven... or to fling insults. and when he does actually present data, he holds to no conclusions as a result... there's a fold in the jacket but the fact the bullet holes all line up is of no consequence, has no bearing on his conclusion... he only wanted to prove the size of his fold... just a little fold envy I guess.... At best he is a poster child for the WCR loyalists... At some point even they have to get fed up with his inability to hold a civilized conversation, or discuss a topic and provide evidentary back-up. It's embarassing to all sides and adds nothing to understanding or critical thought. Once again CL, GREAT job!

Here he goes again ladies and gentlemen... the Craig Lameson, "I have nothing to back my side of the story so please find some for me" posts... If you do not believe the evidence presented, YOU need to refute it, not make us do it for you. Every question you ask goes to prove YOUR point... so go prove it. Prove that all that "speculation" is just that... or can't you? "Can you show us that this is not something that happened on a regular basis or are you just speculating???" Do a little damn research of your own and prove Jim wrong It is not up to Jim or anyone to prove the evidence presented represents a normal occurance or an exception to the rule... that would be YOUR job here Craig... something you are woefully ill-prepared to even attempt. So keep on "speculating" without providing a bit of support, research or evidence ... How about just picking ONE thing to prove... like finding out how many deliveries there were in 1963 to post offices boxes without the addressee being listed on the application allowing for deliver in the first place... Surely someone with your time and resources can do a simple thing like that... at least you could then PROVE the Post Office regularly delivers mail against its own regulations.... or NOT. and then admit it when you discover you're wrong as usual. Have at it dude... or do you have nothing but insults yet again without a shred of effort to defend your pathetic excuse for comments on this forum. Keep up that GREAT work

If they are fake then everything under Oswald's chin is not his... the black clothes, the papers, everything other than his face was not his to begin with... right? and I have to agree with Jim... the PO Box has ZERO credibility to have been the manner in which Oswald received these weapons. From "The Great Carcano Swindle" by Bill MacDowall 12. CLAIM: The Post Office in Dallas to which Oswald had the rifle mailed was kept both under his name and that of A. Hidell. INVESTIGATION: Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an A. Hidell, would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas. As with Harry D. Holmes revelations to the New York Times, the FBI could not have made this determination unless they had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form. The only conclusion it is possible to draw from this information is that Part 3 of Oswald's application still existed after John F. Kennedy was assassinated and that Harry D. Holmes and the FBI knew as much. Harry Holmes' story that Postal Regulations required Part 3 of the form to be destroyed when the box is closed was an act of perjury that attempted to hide the fact that an important piece of evidence had been destroyed sometime after the assassination. Then what??? With Oswlad dead, as he was supposed to be, the photo(s) simply add to the mountain of bogus evidence against him proclaiming a Castro loving Commie killed the president and Tippit. The fact that the clothes are gone and had never been his, along with the Jacket that was found is again, more evidence that it was a set-up. Yea, it was a Set Up all right, but they didn't go with the cover story that it was a Commie Conspiracy and switched to the Lone Nut Scenario, so then what? BK Purely to connect the rifle and pistol to the man... they conveniently ignored the newspapers and focused on the "craziness" of posing with the rifle that would kill the president and the pistol that killed a police officer... spin - what an awful man... in fact, most reproductions don't even make it apparent which magazines those even were... why would Life choose that photo for the cover.... imagery, pure and simple... Kind of like Powell telling the UN about the ficticious yellow cake... or spinning that Saddam was behind 911... in the short term, the court of public opinion was directly influenced by the lie... in the longer term, it's too late. at least that's what I think... DJ More specifically though, the rifle is not even the same one found... the shoulder strap harness ring is in the wrong place.

If they are fake then everything under Oswald's chin is not his... the black clothes, the papers, everything other than his face was not his to begin with... right? and I have to agree with Jim... the PO Box has ZERO credibility to have been the manner in which Oswald received these weapons. From "The Great Carcano Swindle" by Bill MacDowall 12. CLAIM: The Post Office in Dallas to which Oswald had the rifle mailed was kept both under his name and that of A. Hidell. INVESTIGATION: Our investigation has revealed that Oswald did not indicate on his application that others, including an A. Hidell, would receive mail through the box in question, which was Post Office Box 2915 in Dallas. As with Harry D. Holmes revelations to the New York Times, the FBI could not have made this determination unless they had seen Part 3 of Oswald's application form. The only conclusion it is possible to draw from this information is that Part 3 of Oswald's application still existed after John F. Kennedy was assassinated and that Harry D. Holmes and the FBI knew as much. Harry Holmes' story that Postal Regulations required Part 3 of the form to be destroyed when the box is closed was an act of perjury that attempted to hide the fact that an important piece of evidence had been destroyed sometime after the assassination. Then what??? With Oswlad dead, as he was supposed to be, the photo(s) simply add to the mountain of bogus evidence against him proclaiming a Castro loving Commie killed the president and Tippit. The fact that the clothes are gone and had never been his, along with the Jacket that was found is again, more evidence that it was a set-up.

A most excellent post and read.... a bit more food for thought.. and "they" said roack and roll would corrupt our youth.... guess "they" got it right http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html Pink Floyd's Animals.... Pigs, Dogs and Sheep Pigs on the Wing (Part One) (Waters) 1:24 If you didn't care what happened to me, And I didn't care for you, We would zig zag our way through the boredom and pain Occasionally glancing up through the rain. Wondering which of the buggars to blame And watching for pigs on the wing. Dogs (Waters, Gilmour) 17:06 You gotta be crazy, you gotta have a real need. You gotta sleep on your toes, and when you're on the street, You gotta be able to pick out the easy meat with your eyes closed. And then moving in silently, down wind and out of sight, You gotta strike when the moment is right without thinking. And after a while, you can work on points for style. Like the club tie, and the firm handshake, A certain look in the eye and an easy smile. You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to, So that when they turn their backs on you, You'll get the chance to put the knife in. You gotta keep one eye looking over your shoulder. You know it's going to get harder, and harder, and harder as you get older. And in the end you'll pack up and fly down south, Hide your head in the sand, Just another sad old man, All alone and dying of cancer. And when you loose control, you'll reap the harvest you have sown. And as the fear grows, the bad blood slows and turns to stone. And it's too late to lose the weight you used to need to throw around. So have a good drown, as you go down, all alone, Dragged down by the stone. I gotta admit that I'm a little bit confused. Sometimes it seems to me as if I'm just being used. Gotta stay awake, gotta try and shake off this creeping malaise. If I don't stand my own ground, how can I find my way out of this maze? Deaf, dumb, and blind, you just keep on pretending That everyone's expendable and no-one has a real friend. And it seems to you the thing to do would be to isolate the winner And everything's done under the sun, And you believe at heart, everyone's a killer. Who was born in a house full of pain. Who was trained not to spit in the fan. Who was told what to do by the man. Who was broken by trained personnel. Who was fitted with collar and chain. Who was given a pat on the back. Who was breaking away from the pack. Who was only a stranger at home. Who was ground down in the end. Who was found dead on the phone. Who was dragged down by the stone. Pigs (Three Different Ones) (Waters) 11:26 Big man, pig man, ha ha charade you are. You well heeled big wheel, ha ha charade you are. And when your hand is on your heart, You're nearly a good laugh, Almost a joker, With your head down in the pig bin, Saying "Keep on digging." Pig stain on your fat chin. What do you hope to find. When you're down in the pig mine. You're nearly a laugh, You're nearly a laugh But you're really a cry. Bus stop rat bag, ha ha charade you are. You xxxxed up old hag, ha ha charade you are. You radiate cold shafts of broken glass. You're nearly a good laugh, Almost worth a quick grin. You like the feel of steel, You're hot stuff with a hatpin, And good fun with a hand gun. You're nearly a laugh, You're nearly a laugh But you're really a cry. Hey you, Whitehouse, Ha ha charade you are. You house proud town mouse, Ha ha charade you are You're trying to keep our feelings off the street. You're nearly a real treat, All tight lips and cold feet And do you feel abused? .....! .....! .....! .....! You gotta stem the evil tide, And keep it all on the inside. Mary you're nearly a treat, Mary you're nearly a treat But you're really a cry. Sheep (Waters) 10:19 Harmlessly passing your time in the grassland away; Only dimly aware of a certain unease in the air. You better watch out, There may be dogs about I've looked over Jordan, and I have seen Things are not what they seem. What do you get for pretending the danger's not real. Meek and obedient you follow the leader Down well trodden corridors into the valley of steel. What a surprise! A look of terminal shock in your eyes. Now things are really what they seem. No, this is no bad dream. The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want He makes me down to lie Through pastures green He leadeth me the silent waters by. With bright knives He releaseth my soul. He maketh me to hang on hooks in high places. He converteth me to lamb cutlets, For lo, He hath great power, and great hunger. When cometh the day we lowly ones, Through quiet reflection, and great dedication Master the art of karate, Lo, we shall rise up, And then we'll make the bugger's eyes water. Bleating and babbling I fell on his neck with a scream. Wave upon wave of demented avengers March cheerfully out of obscurity into the dream. Have you heard the news? The dogs are dead! You better stay home And do as you're told. Get out of the road if you want to grow old. Pigs on the Wing (Part Two) (Waters) 1:27 You know that I care what happens to you, And I know that you care for me. So I don't feel alone, Or the weight of the stone, Now that I've found somewhere safe To bury my bone. And any fool knows a dog needs a home, A shelter from pigs on the wing.

I can understand how echoes and such may cause different sounds to be heard in different places yet Bowers was in a spot that would have had a direct line of sound from the picket fence and possibly much less echo than those standing in the plaza surrounded by buildings.. I've always felt his description of the loudest sounds was most accurate and has the greatest amount of corroborating testimony. Surprised he is not mentioned in the above rundown of witnesses DJ Mark Lane: Mr Bowers, how many shots did you hear? Lee Bowers: There were three shots and these were spaced with one shot, then a pause and then two shots in very close order, such as perhaps (knocking on table) knock ..... knock-knock. Almost on top of each other, while there was some pause between the first and the second shots. Lane: Did you tell that to the Dallas Police? Bowers: Yes, I told this to the police and then also told it to the FBI, and also I had a discussion two or three days later with them concerning this, and they made no comment other than the fact that when stated that I felt like the third and the second and third shot could not have been fired from the same rifle, they reminded me that I was not an expert. And I had to agree (Bowers smiles sourly).

Simple questions DVP... How does Oswald know to be at the window at 12:30. When does Oswald assemble the rifle and not get a single fingerprint on it When does Oswald build the Sniper's Lair and only get his fingerprints on 1-2 boxes When does Williams leave the 6th floor When does Dougherty leave the 6th floor How many people need to see Oswald between 12:15-12:25 for you to believe them Why does Baker's affidavit specifically say "on the stairs between the 3rd and 4th floors" as opposed to "in the 2nd floor lunchroom" Who were the men seen leaving the back of the TSBD How do 57+ witnesses get it wrong when they say shots were fired from behind the fence on the Knoll Sorry David but there is no actual evidence that Oswald was at that window at 12:30, owned the rifle, knew when the limo would pass the TSBD, had bought any ammo for that rifle, had ever fired that rifle. But there is quite a bit of evidence that shows if he were the assassin his actions and whereabouts are not consistent with being in any kind of position to carry out his desire of killing JFK. And all this evidence exists within the WCR... A person needs Motive AND Opportunity... Oswald had neither

He's talking to you Craig... maybe if you actually read the tome you keep defending you'd realize how ridiculous you sound. then again, you wouldn't want the facts and the data to get in the way of your opinions. btw, your folded rug = jacket fold work is priceless. and then to post that you don't come to any conclusions regarding the shot to the back as a result of all that groundbreaking work... is brilliant. Keep up the great work

This thing is so obvious, yet "they" still march on. Are you saying Jim , that the Trade Mart Speech was scheduled at a much earlier time that we were led to believe? If so, this is very important information that has been withheld from us. So much exculpatory evidence withheld from the public. "Abomonation" is an understatement. This was TREASON. Not sure that is what Jim was saying... The Luncheon was to start at 12. (see the invitation on the first page of thread) The speech at 1pm. AF-1 was to arrive at 11:30 and arrive at the Trade Mart approx 45 min later when JFK was to have a quick lunch and then give his speech. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm The Motorcade Route On November 8, when Lawson was briefed on the itinerary for the trip to Dallas, he was told that 45 minutes had been allotted for a motorcade procession from Love Field to the luncheon site. Lawson was not specifically instructed to select the parade route, but he understood that this was one of his functions. Even before the Trade Mart had been definitely selected, Lawson and Sorrels began to consider the best motorcade route from Love Field to the Trade Mart. On November 14, Lawson and Sorrels attended a meeting at Love Field and on their return to Dallas drove over the route which Sorrels believed best suited for the proposed motorcade. This route, eventually selected for the motorcade from the airport to the Trade Mart, measured 10 miles and could be driven easily within the allotted 45 minutes. From Love Field the route passed through a portion of suburban Dallas, through the downtown area along Main Street and then to the Trade Mart via Stemmons Freeway. For the President's return to Love Field following the luncheon, the agents selected the most direct route, which was approximately 4 miles. After the selection of the Trade Mart as the luncheon site, Lawson and Sorrels met with Dallas Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry, Assistant Chief Charles Batchelor, Deputy Chief N. T. Fisher, and several other command officers to discuss details of the motorcade and possible routes. The route was further reviewed by Lawson and Sorrels with Assistant Chief Batchelor and members of the local host committee on November 15. The police officials agreed that the route recommended by Sorrels was the proper one and did not express a belief that any other route might be better. On November 18, Sorrels and Lawson drove over the selected route with Batchelor and other police officers, verifying that it could be traversed within 45 minutes. Representatives of the local host committee and the White House staff were advised by the Secret Service of the actual route on the afternoon of November 18. But the plane did not land at 11:30 nor did JFK leave Love field at 11:30 but at 11:55 pushing the parade route timing out yet leaving those at the Luncheon and waiting for the speech still on time. If Oswald the assassin was doing his due diligence he'd know about the 11:30 time and the 45 min travel time and have to be at the Sninper's Nest by 12 the latest. It's 5-8 minutes from Dealey to the Trade Mart. The radio, according to Mrs Reid, stated that the motorcade was 5 mins late. Does Oswald know this slight time adjustment is incorrect and that the limo would not pass by until 12:30 instead of 12:10-12:15... obviously not as he is seen having lunch until 12:15 or as late as 12:25 down on the 2nd floor. Only those "in the know" would be on the 6th floor at 12:15, rifle ready, windows open, books stacked... right about the time Williams is eating lunch and Dougherty is wandering around. So it is not so much that the Luncheon was scheduled earlier as much as the lack of knowledge about how late the limo would be passing by the window he is accused of being in for no real reason, at 12:30 instead of 12:10.... and the fact that WCR testimony makes it virtually impossible for him to either know this info or be at that window with enough time to do what he is accused of...

Be interesting to research the extent of the Luncheon's "marketing"... Also be interesting to get the DPD transcripts for 11am-12:30. When and where did the crowds start assembling? I am going thru the FBI statements and those that say, seem to put their deciding to go out front to watch the parade at 12:15-12:25. example: Mrs. Dragoo "On November 22, 1963 I left my office located on the second floor of tha Texas School Book Depository Bldg . and walked to the front entranco of the building about 12:20 PM, to watch the Presidential Motorcade which was to pass along Elm Street in front of the building . I was with Mrs . Bonnie Richey, 220 South Marsalis, Apt . 117, Dallas, Texas, Mrs . Carolyn Arnold, 3325 South Tyler St ., Dallas, Texas, Mrs . Virgie R . Baker, 36002 Live Oak, Dallas, Texas, and Miss Judy Johnson, 915 Sunnyside St ., Dallas, Texas, all employees of the Texas School Book Depository. Wonder what promtped this mass exodus right about 12:15??

Good to see you've honed that ability to stroke yourself into an art form. Guess with the stroking and typing, there are no hands left to slap your own back. Got a few people doing that for you here do ya...? I'll keep reading up on all your support. You da man CL... an insightful, articulate, photographic genius. No 9/11 thoughts...? well thank god for small favors.

Cover up artists like the Discovery Channel and the History Channel with their convoluted logic presented in documentary form. Can't tell you how many times I've heard, "but I saw it on Disc Ch..., why would they lie?" "I recall that shortly after the car in which the President was riding passed the Texas School Book Depository building I heard shots being fired from a point which ,I thought was near the railroad tracks located over the viaduct on Elm Street. -O.V. Campbell VP TSBD standing out front with... Roy Truly... who repeatedly said the he did not feel as if the shots came from the TSBD but to the WEST by the RR tracks. Like to see one Disc Ch documentary that simply reads the statements of the witnesses who place the shots on the GK... can ANYONE say "reasonable doubt" ??

Interesting John, Then why not just stay on the bus (if he was ever really there to begin with) or go directly to the theater (why the gun and change of clothes) - he wasn't going to shoot back if the desire was to be "protected" by being around so many people and police. and if he was supposed to be killed "escaping" when and where was THAT supposed to happen? Tippit was not a murderer although I guess he could have been put into a position where he'd have to be. He definitely was not where he was expected to be And how could Oswald have known where Tippit would be in any case... if he was the LNer he is claimed to be all coincidences?

His mouth moves His fingers type and yet again nothing comes out. You have not posted anything beyond your ridiculous rant about a 3+" fold that has no implications or conclusions to be drawn from it... you don't present information with any relevence, your posts are nothing but attacks on what you can't possibly understand nor have any data to refute. You rely on DVP and Bugliosi to make/defend your worthless points and never take a position on anything. and this is fun for you??? Whatever CL... thanks for the continued representation of nothing and illustrating the overriding mentality of those who believe, as truth, what they're told to believe, without need for questions or conscience. We who actually do want to learn, discuss, debate and enjoy this forum salute you poster child for the misanthropic, misguided and misinformed bet you could tell us exactly how all that nano-thermite wound up in all that dust, too. Good night and good luck