David Josephs

For me John - and I know you refer to when between 12:30 and his arrest - but for me this reaction to his being told he was indeed charged with killing the president is THE defining moment when he realizes he's screwed. since I don't believe Oswald killed Tippit, I don't believe he ever got wind of his being hunted. The Oswald that is arrested at the Texas Theater begins to figure it out slightly - but then why walk down a main street in broad daylight if you think they're after you... and then confine yourself in a building when he had ample opportunity to just disappear - no one had any idea where he was at 1:00 except maybe those who were supposedly going to help him (or promised to help him) fly off into the sunset. "Just doing my duty as I was ordered to as a US marine" might say Oswald... just speculation here... and thanks for checking back and your encouragement. We still see that no LNer has addressed these timing difficulties and/or the evidence in support of them

David, The question about the blood amount (Duncan's thread) coming from JFK's throat is directed at Greer/Kellerman's reactions. Both of them look back toward JFK long before 313. Did neither see it because of JFK's arms.? Would there be blood on JFK's hands, reaching for his throat? The limo slows down. Greer looks back a second time before 313, does he still not see any blood? chris Okay Chris, I get you. They both do indeed look back at JFK as well as JC, who more than likely did have quite a bit of blood spreading on his shirt and was neither attended to or protected in any manner by these 2 men. This is z261... that shirt still looks incredibly white... not sure what to conclude

Or a coherent, rational assassin desiring a place in history, for that matter Bill. Nothing about what Oswald did or where he was from 11:55-12:30 is in support of his being the assassin while all the evidence is designed/manufactured and placed to make it LOOK like he was. "Lone" Nut" - neither could be farther from the truth

Hey Josephs..STFU.... Don't like what I write...DON'T READ IT! Simple enough, even for you. Wow... capitals AND exclamation points... must have hit a nerve - has it really been 30 years? If and when you ever write something worth reading, I'll take you up on your offer to ignore it As long as you continue to abuse, insult and annoy - and the mods don't want to stop you - I'll keep having my fun with ya. ...you just ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know.

It should have read: "Interesting how the assassination is timed so that a 'communist' can shoot the president on everybody's lunch hour..." Where I wanted to go with this is that the whitewash story was that Every Good American vacated the sixth floor at lunch to go see the president drive by, giving a wily "commie" his opportunity to strike. I get you David.... just a little tongue in cheek on my part. One of the stranger parts of this timeline is Jarman and Norman deciding at like, 12:25 to go back into the building and up to the 5th floor. The timing of their being where they needed to be at exactly the right time is a bit eerie too. DJ Mr. JARMAN - Then I went out in front of the building. Mr. BALL - With who? Mr. JARMAN - Harold Norman, Bonnie Ray, and Danny Arce and myself. Mr. BALL - You say Bonnie Ray Williams? Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams. Mr. BALL - Do you remember him going with you? Mr. JARMAN - No; I am sorry. Excuse me, but it was Harold Norman and myself and Daniel Arce. Mr. BALL - What about Billy Lovelady? Mr. JARMAN - I didn't go out with them. They came out later. Mr. BALL - Did you see Billy Lovelady out there? Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Where was he? Mr. JARMAN - Standing on the stairway as you go out the front door. Mr. BALL - Where did you stand? Mr. JARMAN - I was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west. Mr. BALL - Were you on the sidewalk or curb? Mr. JARMAN - On the sidewalk. Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there? Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25. …. Mr. BALL - You went in the back door? Mr. JARMAN - Right. Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it? Mr. JARMAN - Right. Mr. BALL - Did you take an elevator or the stairs? Mr. JARMAN - We took the elevator. Mr. BALL - Which elevator? Mr. JARMAN - The west side elevator. Mr. BALL - That is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it? Mr. JARMAN - Right Mr. BALL - Where did you go? Mr. JARMAN - To the fifth floor. Mr. BALL - Why did you go to the fifth floor? Mr. JARMAN - We just decided to go to the fifth floor. Mr. BALL - Was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth? Mr. JARMAN - No. Mr. BALL - Did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor? Mr. JARMAN - Well, I don't know if it was myself or Hank. Mr. BALL - When you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor? Mr. JARMAN - No, sir. Mr. BALL - What did you do when you got to the fifth floor? Mr. JARMAN - We got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. That was in case somebody wanted to use it. Then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows. Mr. BALL - Which windows did you raise? Mr. JARMAN - Well, Harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and I went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one. Mr. BALL - It would be the fourth window? (Bronson film glimpse of SE 5th floor windows) Mr. JARMAN - Yes. Mr. BALL - Did somebody join you then? Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir; a few minutes later. Mr. BALL - Who joined you? Mr. JARMAN - Bonnie Ray Williams. Mr. BALL - And where did he stand or sit? Mr. JARMAN - He took the window next to Harold Norman.

DVP posted: Would any amount of coercion be enough to get you to identify a man as a murderer whom you knew was really innocent? Shouldn't conspiracy theorists occasionally ask themselves the above question (as it relates to the several witnesses who positively IDed Lee Oswald as the murderer of JFK and/or J.D. Tippit)? I wonder then Mr Pein, whether LNers like yourself shouldn't occasstionally ask themselves how not several witnesses, nor a few or a handful... but many, many, many witnesses (including those closest to the scene, riding in the lead car, riding in the limo, standing beside the limo, on a motorcycle right behind the limo, in the SS follow-up car, standing in front of the TSBD, standing across from the TSBD, standing on the overpass, sitting in a little building overlooking the RR yard, etc...) who all POSITIVELY place shots coming from behind the picket fence, what type of coercion was put on them to DENY identifying the location of the gunfire OTHER than the TSBD 6th floor SE window... Coerced to change their minds and testimony about the number of shots and their direction. Brennan never ID'd Oswald... no amount of coercion, circumstance or fear could and get him to finger the wrong man, while no amount of conscious could keep him from searching out the spotlight. I am willing to hold up the list of witnesses who heard/saw a shot from the GK against the tiny number who ID Oswald as committing any crime. At least enough to create reasonable doubt... a concept that never seems to enter the conversation. and as long as there is significant reasonable doubt, LHO is innocent until proven guilty, at least in the legal system that was in place at the time

David... How is that you know that the shooters were communist - the fact they worked together and in unison for a greater cause???

Whether it was Landsdale or not... a simple question Would a policeman allow ANYONE to stroll right past him while armed and escorting these men, or any man/men into custody? Isn't that the strangest part of that first picture? Let alone the casual manner the rear policeman is carrying his weapon while seeing this man walk up and then past his "partner"... no reponse from either ??!?? Unless he was indeed known not to be a threat...

Interesting thought again Chris.... I've seen this image of the shirt.. is there a color, full frontal version of his shirt? You'd think with a bullethole just about where the 2nd letter "O" is in Laboratory, there would be blood all around that button. We'd also want to see the tie in color as well DJ

I agree with Jim that Chris' methodology of syncing all the films to search for anomolies is sound. Question for Chris though... with different/variable film rates what might be seen in one might NOT be seen in another just due to physics, right? I realize we'd be looking for Muchmore significant changes (lol). But only if frames were removed, not if they were simply painted over. and given the Nix and Muchmore films were much less likely to have been altered than Zapruder, a complete stop of the limo, is imo not realistic. I seem to remember reading though that Greer was picked exactly BECAUSE he had a tendency to hit the brakes when presented with an unexpected stimulus... soryy I can't cite it, maybe someone else can. There is no way Zapruder was shown to the public that weekend. and if you look at Muchmore's first part (my Muchmore is a part 1 and 2) it does indeed end as the limo is about to turn onto elm and there is indeed some footage in Muchmore of the limo on Elm before the shot. Yes, the limo slows down. Hey Craig! Must you always be so pissed at the entire world that everything you write has to be so caustic? Can't imagine ANYONE taking anything you say seriously or you ever getting into a normal discussion with members of this forum... Your rights, my rights, on this forum not withstanding.... how about a little people-skills training... you remove the enjoyment of open discussion with attack after attack and nothing to contribute... Must you chime in on every thread with your "I haven't had any in 30 years" attitude? Even Oscar Myer packages their baloney to look appealing. Great job dude

BUMP So none of the LNers here are up to the task of describing how LHO got to where he was supposed to be, when he was supposed to be there... How he knew to be there then and how he was not seen by anyone going or coming from there. Guess it's just like all those people, including Curry and Decker, the SS agents and Truly... who all experienced shots coming from the RR yard, west of the TSBD. They were all wrong

I'm sorry but I forget which Exec Session but the commissioners were discussing how in the world he is shot in the throat from "there" - assuming they are speaking of the Sniper's window... And proceed to talk about his turning around. At no time does JFK turn 180 degrees to face the TSBD (remember the streeet is constantly turning to the left thereby making the turn farther and farther to JFK's right. Hoover mentions the turn to LBJ as he understands the shot was to the throat, not to the back and thru the throat... this is before Tague and the SBT... DJ

Umbrella dart, no. Blood soluble flechette fired circa Z190 by Black Dog Man from behind the short concrete wall in front of the picket fence, yes. This is arguably the most likely scenario. I like the flechette concept.. the BDM origination is a problem for me. Beztner, which was very close to when this shot would have been taken makes it hard to reconcile someone just standing out in the open firing a weapon. Regardless of what Hudson says I still hold to the idea that BDM was possibly Hudson since he says he walked from the Tool shed to his spot on the steps which gives him the opportunity to walk right past that spot. I realize he says he was sitting there and just stood up when the limo came but I simply do not see him in this image of willis 5. BDM cannot be GArnold either imo as the placement is wrong and the darkness of his appearance is hard to reconcile with the supposed lightness of Arnold's uniform and the fact he was much further back closer to the picket fence (if there at all) In addition, we feel pretty confident that there were shooters behind the fence... no way a member of that team puts himself between the shooters and JFK. IMO the throat shot was either from the badgeman position or from the overpass's southern side. Yet would still like to hear thoughts about the reaction we see at 223/224... I still contend this is from the back wound and NOT the throat at all. the Elbows wouldn't fly out nor would he lunge forward from a tiny throat entrance... the back shot has a direct response to that effect. DJ

David, Just for the record, my reply was tongue in cheek. I was joking about the Umbrella dart and the storm drain garbage. I was giving a ridiculous answer to a ridiculous suggestion. My bad... never know anymore. Point still remains valid though I believe... the throat shot was tiny and imo very much designed to keep him still... boggles the mind that Jackie did not pull him down after they emerge from the sign. Maybe she couldn't between the back-brace and the 2 shots. Kind of strange, if a set-up, to wait so long between 224 and 313 in the hopes he'd still be upright... quite a gamble don't you think - given how important it was for him to be killed in before he left Dallas - depending on your view as to who was behind it. that is unless we believe in the connally shot and a missed head shot (as a result of the back wound pushing him out of the way. Then there is the manhole cover shot and the Tague shot that also miss... so I may have mispoke. DJ

IMO you are confusing the reaction to the back shot with the reaction to the throat. If Duncan is correct and it was the umbrella dart... (which I have a tough time believing based on what the Perry says about the trach... the damage was to JFK's right side... the umbrella man shooting from JFK's right, from right to left, would not create damage to the right of JFK's neck but the left)... or some other kind of CIA "new" weapon... it was designed to enter with minimal pain or notice. Problem is there are very few other places that shot could have come from unless from the Overpass or a second GK shooter. What about the theory that says the throat shot was indeed when Duncan places it and is minorly in vasive yet extremely paralyzing as intended. Seems that JFK hardly moves at all after that shot EXCEPT for 221-224 when he is shot in the back, is thrown somehwat forward and his elbows raise up. Looking at his reaction as he emerges from the sign, he is in distress and his hands are starting to react. I think the back shot occurs just before he emerges, pushes him forward and we see the reaction we see. 2 seperate shots with confused reactions about the throat shot. DJ edit: not sure why the gif is not rolling... will try to post again - DJ edit #2 - guess you have to click on it to see it... thought they just ran...

Definitely DVP... I thought I had posted to that fact but it was a reply to a GMack email... sorry. Dawned on me just after I posted it... But the invitation has been proven authentic and Lawson does tell Curry that the timing is to be at the Trade Mart by 12:15 after landing at 11:30 or so. Peter, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one except for the "readying the trap". That is the entire point of this thread. For Oswald to "ready the trap" a number of things must occur... - rifle is assembled - Sniper's lair is built - Noone is on the 6th floor between 11:55 and 12:30 - witnesses do NOT see multiple men, in different windows, sporting rifles at 12:15 - Oswald is NOT in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 or as late as 12:25 - Oswald knows when the limo would pass by so as to have the time to "ready the trap" Since these actions are in themselves contradictory, I conclude there was no luck, or LHO involved in the actual assassination. By some means the information was relayed to those who were involved in the assassination, positions were taken, the "trap was readied" Wasn't it one of the SS agents who said it felt as if they were driving into an ambush, a shooting gallery? If anyone can present a timeline between 12:00 and 12:30 for LHO to have accomplished the "readying" please post... I believe we will find both the opportunity and evidence lacking in this respect. DJ

I don't recall it Jim.... but I remember a picture of an Oswald looking person talking to a Dallas police officer out front of the TSBD, just don't know when that was taken. then again, it does not seem so impossible to have the actual Oswald out front within minutes of the assassination given he was seen by Reid right after the Truly/Baker incident and then makes his way down to the 1str floor and out the front. I am hoping the point of this thread is to show that if we are to believe any of the wsitnesses that place Oswald eslewhere (2nd floor lunchroom) at 12:15. I like this quote from the Oliver Stones JFK 100 site: Eddie Piper and William Shelly [sic -- Shelley] saw Oswald eating lunch in the first floor lunch room around twelve. Around 12:15, on her way out of the building to see the motorcade, secretary Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the second floor snack room, where he said he went for a Coke . . . Irrelevant. Oswald's whereabouts at 12:00 or 12:15 are not an issue. emphasis added by not refuting the claim we can basically feel comfortable that the Arnold claim of 12:15 is valid albeit dismissable by this "OSWALD DID IT" site... it is indeed relevent where he was at 12:15... the same time other witnesses see people and rifles on the 6th floor. The question we are asking is not whether Oswald could have made it up, built the rifle, built the sniper's lair, and accomplished the feat... but What the heck was he still doing on the 2nd floor at 12:15 and (ala Mr. Carroll) did he know or not know about the timing of the parade...and/or the assassination? If he was there, as some say, to help prevent the assassination, he was not doing a good job by hiding in the TSBD during the parade ... leads me to conclude Oswald either didn't have a clue and was somehow out of sight exactly when he needed to be or he knew all along he was being set up and stayed in the 2nd floor lunchroom the entire time.... or he actually did run up, pulled off the most amazing shooting performance in history, and ran back down, unseen, unmussed, cold-blooded enough to buy a Coke and shrug off the crime of the century with casual glances and some mumbling.... Guess it was a good thing Williams, Norman and Jarvis (and Dougherty) did not hear anyone running up the steps, past the 5th floor, walking across the floor to the corner window above them, assemble the rifle and move the boxes... they only heard the 3 click-Booms... and no footsteps or shuffling of his escape. DJ

I hear you John... The two Oswalds (Jiffy Mart sighting) may also play into this if they both were at the TSBD at some point. One of them might have been one of the men seen on the 6th floor. The When and Where becomes much more important as well as a predicate to the How and Why. Are Oswlad's actions consistent with someone who is not exactly sure when the president he supposedly decided to kill days before, is passing by? or are the details of the assassination such that teams of people, all in radio contact, know when and where to be, are seen there (or the areas they would be in are somehow secure from unwanted visitors) and are shooting simultaneously via radio command. We know Altgens was chased away from the overpass and RR yard at 11:15 Do we believe Richard Carr seeing someone on the 7th floor at 12:00 Bowers' people and cars between 12:15 and 12:30 Rowland's people at 12:15 Carolyn Walthers sighting at 12:15 of men on the 5th floor John Powell also sees men on the 6th floor with guns at 12:15 Carolyn Aronold who sees Oswald at 12:15 on the 2nd floor Ruby Henderson also sees 2 men on the 6th floor at 12:15 BRWilliams testifies that the 6th floor is empty when he leaves at 12:20 to go down to the 5th (where is Dougherty?) 12:31 Baker/Truly meet Oswald 12:32 Oswald passes Reid heading to the front of the TSBD 12:33 Rowald see a man looks like Oswald but with different clothing run out the back of TSBD Carr sees men coming around from the back of TSBD and leave in a car parked on Houston 12:34/5 Oswald leaves thru the front door... possibly gets in the car that RCraig sees which is somewhat supported by Oswald's outburst about the Paine station wagon later on at the office. The LNers are going to have to reconcile the multiple witnesses to men on the 6th floor between 12:00-12:30 while LHO was spotted numerous times during that period on the lower floors. With those men working up on the 6th floor - when does LHO have the time to set up and be ready when he has no real idea when the limo is coming by? DJ

Not sure where we can go with this... Maybe the fact about the 2 Oswalds (Jiffy store visits in the morning, twice) and how this other Oswald may have also been in the building at the time? The biggest problem I've always had was the set-up... if LHO was seen anywhere at the time of the shots would "they" have simply gotten rid of that witness? Oswald was supposed to have been killed and all that not even an issue... But he WAS seen after 12:15. DJ

Part of Dallas doctor Malcolm Perry, who worked on JFK and Oswald, dies at 80 by Scott Farwell, Dallas Morning News, Dec 8, 2009 Dr. Robert McClelland was the last surgeon to attend to Kennedy in Trauma Room 1. McClelland, a longtime friend and colleague of Dr. Perry's, remembered that the shock of the situation faded quickly when they entered the trauma room. "At Parkland, we're accustomed, all of us are, to treating many different cases," McClelland told the Associated Press on Monday. "Of course, it's the president," he said. Was it hard to put that aside? "No, not really. Everything was so rapidly happening that we were called on the peak of the moment." So a bit of a contradiction here.... Sorry, but this is the real SHOCK from the Parkland doctors from that day: Mr. SPECTER - Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound? Dr. PERRY - It could have been either. Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck. Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances? Dr. PERRY - Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound.

Completely Jim. Kind of like arguing about his ability to fire the rifle when in fact THAT rifle was never in his possession. This also gives more of a reason for the FBI to say "no one sees Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30" when they know this not to be true as shown above. As he is indeed seen a number of times up to minutes before the assassination and then by Truly/Baker within 90 seconds and again by Mrs. Reid within 2 minutes after... it becomes harder and harder to assume he simply "ran up at the last minute" - he'd have never known when that last minute was, who would be there, etc... We have to remember he's on his own timeline, not one that has to fit back into the 12:30 shots from 2, if not three direcetions.

Excuse my jumping in... I am sure Jim will get to you in time yet I had an observation. IMO there is a HUGE difference between the shock "and procedures" in the ER in Dallas and at Bethesda's autopsy. There were no military brass at Parkland watching over the doctors as they proceeded to see a frontal throat wound and a large right rear blow-out. No one wathcing over Hill as he looks down into JFK's head, or Jackie for that matter. Nothing could be done to assist JFK at Parkland - shock or no shock they performed the duties they were expected to perform fairly well. The same cannot be said of the Bethesda "autopists" (if they can be called that). Their shock had to be at the manner in which they were ordered to do things that evening, what was readily apparent to them and what they were ultimately ordered to put into the official record. That is the same shock and repulsion that we feel today. DJ

Hey Jim, The Invitation actually says "twelve noon" yet I am not sure who these invitations were sent to... if VIP you'd imagine they'd want to be there early to greet him while the posters say 12:30 for the rest of the people.. just a guess. I did have this from one of my own essays but would have to research the source as it's not listed: SS agent Lawson told Police Chief Curry that the Luncheon at the Trade Mart was to begin at 12:15 (45 minute ride from Love Field after arriving at 11:30) The invitation says 12 noon. They arrives at 11:39 and leaves for Trade Mart at 11:55. and this: Duke Lane Ed Forum Post http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/lofiversion/index.php/t14478.html Jun 18 2009, 05:50 PM I was leafing through old issues (is there any other kind?) of The Third Decade and came across an article by Timothy Cwiek in Volume 3, Issue 2 (January 1987) called "The Motorcade Route Stories that Never Were." Accompanying his article, reprinted on the back cover, were newspaper articles from both the Dallas Times Herald and Morning News detailing the route in print (published in the WC evidentiary volumes as Commission Exhibits 1362 and 1363, respectively). CE1362, published on November 19, indicates that the Dallas route was "revealed," indicating that: From the (Love Field) airport, the President's party will proceed to Mockingbird to Lemmon and then to Turtle Creek, turning south on Cedar Springs. The motorcade will then pass through downtown on Harwood and then west on Main, turning back to Elm at Houston and then out Stemmons to the Trade Mart. The return trip will be more direct: Stemmons to Harry Hines, to Mockingbird and on to Love Field — a distance of 4.2 miles. A couple of things stand out in these articles. First, while the Times Herald indicates that Kennedy would have a "three hour visit to the city," it does not even note when that visit will begin. The News, on the other hand, indicates that the President's plane was due to land at Love Field at "about 11:30 a.m." For what it's worth, no time for Kennedy's planned departure is given in either article. I don't see how else Oswald would have known the time to be later than that. then again the bag in Wesley's car that morning was not big enough to hold the rifle anyway... Oswald didn't seem involved in the timing needs of the assassination at all that day.

thanks John... to elaborate a bit If we can show that LHO was not on an assassination timeline (bring the rifle, hide it, get to a spot to shoot him, shoot him, etc...) all these other facts about the rifle and pistol are moot. He'd have to either sit and wait at the 6th floor window starting as early as 11:45 (plane was supposed to land at 11:30 and be at the Trade Mart by 12:15)... know exactly when the plane landed and when it was expected to pass the TSBD and ALSO know that no one would be up there at the time.... be in communication with those that did know and would insure no one was in his way.... or not be involved at all, not care when the limo was passing, and be seen anywhere BUT the 6th floor as late as 12:25.... You decide: We know men were claimed to be seen between 12-12:15 at various windows on either end of the 6th floor, one on the 7th and the black guys on the 5th. The motorcade did not even leave Love field until 11:55, so for there to be 3 teams - in place - there needed to be unobstructed access to the GK, Sniper's Lair (if a shoot came from there), Dal-Tex, RR yard, etc... And these people had to be aware of the expected landing time of the plane - as you said there was an ongoing radio report of the flight and motorcade procession yet I can't imagine using that as the basis for setting up the assassination timeline... We do know that people were told to leave the GK/Overpass area well before 12pm (Altgens and Arnold(if there)) Bowers sees the 2 men at the GK fence by 12:20 after the car circles the lot - they know somehow to be there at that time and they must know they are safe from interference... isn't there a DPD uniformed officer there chasing people away? There is someone in the SW 6th floor building going in and out of the shadows as well as an older, thin Negro according to A. Rowland at the SE 6th floor window. and all this time Williams says he was alone up there until 12:15 at least... Jack Dougherty had also been on the 6th floor till after 12:20 and saw no one... ?!?! I found this testimony a little strange in that you'd think there would have been a number of radios on, in and around the TSBD, with people checking on the progess of the parade yet only when Mrs. Reid calls her husband does she find out the parade is late. I don't recall anyone else mentioning a radio braodcast while in the TSBD... any help? Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps. Some other food for thought on this 38 min timeline (limo leaves Love Field and the assassination at 12:33) http://karws.gso.uri...ternalComm.html Then, there is the mishandling of the Carolyn Arnold statements. Taken together, the two support her later claims that she saw LHO on the first floor at 12:25; making it unlikely that he went up five flights of stairs and ran over to the window to shoot JFK. In her hand written statement she told the FBI she saw LHO "at about 12:25 PM" (Weisberg Post Mortem, p. 333 citing Commission Document 706(d)). The FBI retyped her statement to read that she LHO "a few minutes before 12:15 PM" (Roffman, p. 185, citing CD 5:4l). On page 276 Roffman notes the dishonestly of the Warren Report which claimed "that it knew of no Book Depository employee who claimed to have seen Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30 on the day of the assassination." British journalist and author Anthony Summers provides the following summary of his 1978 interview with Mrs. Arnold: When I found Mrs. Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that she had been misquoted, came before I explained to her the importance of Oswald's whereabouts at given moments. Mrs. Arnold's recollection of what she really observed was clear--spotting Oswald was after all her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice- president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment. . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water. Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating lunch on the second floor lunchroom. ”Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.” ref. Crossfire, p 49; Conspiracy - Who Killed Kennedy?, p 108 http://www.mtgriffit...ments/hasty.htm A few minutes later, Bill Shelley and Charles Givens saw Oswald on the first floor, at around 11:50. Then, ten minutes later, Eddie Piper also saw Oswald on the first floor. Moreover, as mentioned, Williams began eating his lunch on the sixth floor at right around noon and didn't leave the floor until around 12:15 or 12:20. Since Oswald was seen by Piper on the first floor at noon, and since Williams was on the sixth floor at noon to eat his lunch, the only time Oswald could have gone up to the sniper's nest was after Williams came back downstairs at 12:15 or 12:20. The motorcade was scheduled to pass in front of the TSBD at 12:25. As it turned out, the motorcade was running five minutes late, but Oswald could not have known that. Arriving at the sniper's window at 12:16 at the earliest, Oswald would have been hard-pressed to build (or finish building) the sniper's nest, arrange the boxes next to the window as a gun rest, and then reassemble the rifle. One witness, Arnold Rowland, insisted he saw a man with a rifle--an assembled rifle--on the sixth floor at 12:15 or 12:16, and Rowland said nothing about seeing any boxes being moved in the sniper's nest. Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him? Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o’clock. Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o’clock? Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor. Mr. BALL. What was he doing? Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him-“It’s about http://www.ratical.o.../PG/PGchp7.html Jarman and Norman appeared together on the first floor again, about ten minutes after stepping outside. Because the crowds in front of the Depository were so large, the two men went up to the fifth floor at 12:20 or 12:25. To do this, they walked around to the back of the building, entering on the first floor through the rear door and taking the elevator up five stories (3H202). Obviously, Oswald could not have told the police that "Junior" and a short Negro employee were together on the first floor unless he had seen this himself.[3] For Oswald to have witnessed Jarman and Norman in this manner, he had to have been on the first floor between either 12:10 and 12:15 or 12:20 and 12:25. The fact that Oswald was able to relate this incident is cogent evidence that he was in fact on the first floor at one or both of these times. If he was on the sixth floor, as the Commission believes, then it was indeed a remarkable coincidence that out of all the employees, Oswald picked the two who were on the first floor at the time he said, and together as he described. Since this is a remote possibility that warrants little serious consideration, I am persuaded to conclude that Oswald was on the first floor at some time between 12:10 and 12:25, which is consistent with the previously cited testimony of Eddie Piper.[4] Now, let us revisit the statements made by Bonnie Ray Williams. First of all, when the WC asked Williams about his FBI statement, he denied telling the FBI that he left the sixth floor at 12:05 (4:103). And, when the Commission asked Williams to give an approximate time for his departure from the sixth floor, he said he left at around 12:20 (4:103). Former WC member Gerald Ford said Williams left the sixth floor "just minutes before the Presidential motorcade reached the corner of Houston and Elm" Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was. Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it? Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe. Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there? Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes. Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there? Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes. Not the first or only time the FBI recollection/recording of witness statements wound up being in favor of LHO did it as opposed to what was said. Did they ever make an error in recording a statement that FAVORED LHO? edit: It has been brought to my attention that the poster is probably a phony as it appears to have their arrival at Love Field that day as the image - which would be impossible. the VIP luncheon invite is still up for discussion - since it was a fundraiser, there is no reason to assume a noon start for luch was not correct and that the invite is legit... DJ

For all that to work... doesn't that little paper bag in the back seat of the car need to be MUCH BIGGER than anyone says it was to hold a broken down rifle? How did the bag even get back to the Paines to begin with... if Oswald made it Wed/Thur there are not enough fold marks on it to have been made small enough that Wesley would not notice it on the ride home... or was it made well before hand (even though it does not match the paper at work) And finally... given that Oswald does not know the motorcade is late by 20-30mins minutes (announcements for the luncheon range from 12 to 12:30) we are supposed to believe he waits until AFTER the earliest announced time for the luncheon to actual begin, to make his way up to the 6th floor, assemble the rifle, etc... ? Once again, facts are nice but without context and perspective to other facts they are meaningless. There are so many, "Even if's" this, that or the other happens... there are enough other facts that contradict the conclusions of the isolated fact you are discussing. Oswald was seen after 12:10 and as much as 12:20 on the 2nd floor. He had no idea when the motorcade was passing HIS window. DJ