David Josephs

QUOTE (David Josephs @ Jun 7 2010, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. No one saw him do it Even Fritz is obviously disappointed when he says that they cannot place him (Oswald) in the window with a rifle at the time of the shots while the one witness, Brennan, in his book "Eyewitness to History" says: I said brusquely, “He looks like the man, but I can’t say for sure!” I needed some time to think. I turned to Mr. Lish, who had detected my resentment and said, “Let’s go back to the office. We have some talking to do.” As we went, I commented that the man in the lineup wasn’t dressed the same way the man in the window had been. Brennan was the one and only witness putting Oswald in that window and he refused to ID him... for a variety of reasons... but this left the DPD with no one to ID Oswald. As I wrote... "No one saw him (LHO) do it" Unless you have something to add to the thread other that insulting attacks Interesting how you put that "for a variety of reasons" I wonder if his reasons included the fact he felt betrayed by the DPD, or possibly was in fear? How about this from Brennan's own book: "The officer walked over to me sticking out his hand to shake. He greeted me by name and I knew if he knew who I was and what my connection with the case was, then others must know. He asked me, “Does the second man from the left look most like the man you saw?” He was talking about Oswald and I knew what he wanted me to say. I felt even more angry and betrayed. I hadn’t agreed to make an identification to the local authorities. I knew that there were ways my identity could become known though the leaks in the police department and I didn’t want any part of it. I knew that they had Oswald on enough charges that he wasn’t going anyplace. He had been charged with resisting arrest and carrying a firearm without a permit. There was overwhelming evidence that he had killed Officer Tippit and so my identification in that moment wasn’t absolutely necessary. If they needed me later, I knew I could identify him." I knew I could identify him, if they needed me later! Sounds like Brennan saw Oswald in that window. Now I wonder why you did not elaborate on "for a variety of reasons" http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0085a.htm Page 145/146 of the WCR – “Although the record indicates that Brennan was an accurate observer, he declined to make a positive ID of Oswald when he first saw him in the police line-up. The Commission, therefore, does NOT base its conclusion concerning the identity of the assassin on Brennan’s subsequent identification of LHO as the man he saw fire a rifle.” While the Report admits that Brennan believes he saw someone who looked like Oswald, according to him, the only thing that can be taken as evidence is a witnesses’ positive or negative identification. Well what do you know... the DPD records HAS such a document!! {image already provided} And instead of firing back with Fischer and Edwards – who also used the term “could” have been LHO, never positively identified Oswald. Or Euins who actually saw a black man at the window and was scared into changing his story – kind of like Dr. Perry, someone considerably less shaken than a 15 year old kid, who was hounded into changing what he KNEW to be a frontal entrance into a maybe.... Proof Mikey... Evidence.... Brennan’s words are all hearsay. He didn’t ID Oswald as the shooter #1 proven – No one saw him (LHO) do it QUOTE 2. He was seen elsewhere just before and just after.. with a woman who told a researcher she was giving him change when the shots were fired. Do we really need to do the Oswald timeline again? He's seen as late as 12:15-12:20 on the first floor - and please try to remember if he was the lone assassin he has no way of knowing EXACTLY when the limo is passing... based on what the public knew JFK would pass by anytime between 11:55 and 12:25 (luncheon had public start times of both 12 and 12:30). Add to this that Williams is eating his lunch, at a 6th floor window until 12:15 or so. And then again LHO is seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:31 - maybe... the Baker/Truly/Oswald rememberance of this event is still very much at odds with each other. I wish I could find the person who posted the comment about a woman coming forward claiming to have been giving Oswald change for the Coke machine on his trip from the 1st floor to the 2nd, before he buys the coke. Maybe someone can come to my aid while I continue to look for it.... Bottom line? Oswald was not on the 6th floor when witnesses saw numerous men with rifles moving about on that floor. Mrs Reid definitely places a coke in his hand as he walks thru her office out towards the front, after the "Baker" encounter. So where was he DURING the assassination. You readily admit you have him located just before, and just after. Rowland does in fact see a dark complected man in the window at about 12:15, as I recall. He also sees a gunman, which rather fits Oswald's description, but he never sees the both at the same time. So you have Oswald accounted for till say 12:20, and then again at 12:31. This does not rule him out at all. As far as someone telling a researcher something, come on, you don’t really believe hearsay like that is going to fly do you? I am not a CT. I don’t bite that easily. Yes Mikey... If someone is seen on the 1st/2nd floor at 12:15-12:20 and possibly even 12:25 and then again at 12:31 in the exact same area... it is reasonable to conclude he never went anywhere, NOT that he ran up 5 flights of steps, assembled a rifle, built a boxed-in sniper’s lair, fired and hit 2 of three shots while MANY witnesses: civilian, DPD, SS testify to a shot coming from the right front of the limo; lay the rifle down, make a clip and paper bag disappear until needed, run down 5 flights of steps, get change for a coke, buy the coke and casually walk into a gun pointed at his stomach. All in 6-12 minutes. I can see where you’d think this scenario does not rule him out... http://karws.gso.uri.edu/PSC482g/Spring1999/ExternalComm.html Then, there is the mishandling of the Carolyn Arnold statements. Taken together, the two support her later claims that she saw LHO on the first floor at 12:25; making it unlikely that he went up five flights of stairs and ran over to the window to shoot JFK. In her hand written statement she told the FBI she saw LHO "at about 12:25 PM" (Weisberg Post Mortem, p. 333 citing Commission Document 706(d)). The FBI retyped her statement to read that she LHO "a few minutes before 12:15 PM" (Roffman, p. 185, citing CD 5:4l). On page 276 Roffman notes the dishonestly of the Warren Report which claimed "that it knew of no Book Depository employee who claimed to have seen Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30 on the day of the assassination." British journalist and author Anthony Summers provides the following summary of his 1978 interview with Mrs. Arnold: When I found Mrs. Arnold in 1978 to get a firsthand account, she was surprised to hear how she had been reported by the FBI. Her spontaneous reaction, that she had been misquoted, came before I explained to her the importance of Oswald's whereabouts at given moments. Mrs. Arnold's recollection of what she really observed was clear--spotting Oswald was after all her one personal contribution to the record of that memorable day. As secretary to the company vice- president she knew Oswald; he had been in the habit of coming to her for change. What Mrs. Arnold says she actually told the FBI is very different from the report of her comments and not vague at all. She said: "About a quarter of an hour before the assassination [12:15], I went into the lunchroom on the second floor for a moment. . . . Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly." Mrs. Arnold has reason to remember going into the lunchroom. She was pregnant at the time and had a craving for a glass of water. Carolyn Arnold sees Oswald eating lunch on the second floor lunchroom. ”Oswald was sitting in one of the booth seats on the right hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly.” ref. Crossfire, p 49; Conspiracy - Who Killed Kennedy?, p 108 http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/hasty.htm A few minutes later, Bill Shelley and Charles Givens saw Oswald on the first floor, at around 11:50. Then, ten minutes later, Eddie Piper also saw Oswald on the first floor. Moreover, as mentioned, Williams began eating his lunch on the sixth floor at right around noon and didn't leave the floor until around 12:15 or 12:20. Since Oswald was seen by Piper on the first floor at noon, and since Williams was on the sixth floor at noon to eat his lunch, the only time Oswald could have gone up to the sniper's nest was after Williams came back downstairs at 12:15 or 12:20. The motorcade was scheduled to pass in front of the TSBD at 12:25. As it turned out, the motorcade was running five minutes late, but Oswald could not have known that. Arriving at the sniper's window at 12:16 at the earliest, Oswald would have been hard-pressed to build (or finish building) the sniper's nest, arrange the boxes next to the window as a gun rest, and then reassemble the rifle. One witness, Arnold Rowland, insisted he saw a man with a rifle--an assembled rifle--on the sixth floor at 12:15 or 12:16, and Rowland said nothing about seeing any boxes being moved in the sniper's nest. Mr. BALL. Was that the last time you saw him? Mr. PIPER. Just at 12 o’clock. Mr. BALL. Where were you at 12 o’clock? Mr. PIPER. Down on the first floor. Mr. BALL. What was he doing? Mr. PIPER. Well, I said to him-“It’s about http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/PGchp7.html Jarman and Norman appeared together on the first floor again, about ten minutes after stepping outside. Because the crowds in front of the Depository were so large, the two men went up to the fifth floor at 12:20 or 12:25. To do this, they walked around to the back of the building, entering on the first floor through the rear door and taking the elevator up five stories (3H202). Obviously, Oswald could not have told the police that "Junior" and a short Negro employee were together on the first floor unless he had seen this himself.[3] For Oswald to have witnessed Jarman and Norman in this manner, he had to have been on the first floor between either 12:10 and 12:15 or 12:20 and 12:25. The fact that Oswald was able to relate this incident is cogent evidence that he was in fact on the first floor at one or both of these times. If he was on the sixth floor, as the Commission believes, then it was indeed a remarkable coincidence that out of all the employees, Oswald picked the two who were on the first floor at the time he said, and together as he described. Since this is a remote possibility that warrants little serious consideration, I am persuaded to conclude that Oswald was on the first floor at some time between 12:10 and 12:25, which is consistent with the previously cited testimony of Eddie Piper.[4] Now, let us revisit the statements made by Bonnie Ray Williams. First of all, when the WC asked Williams about his FBI statement, he denied telling the FBI that he left the sixth floor at 12:05 (4:103). And, when the Commission asked Williams to give an approximate time for his departure from the sixth floor, he said he left at around 12:20 (4:103). Former WC member Gerald Ford said Williams left the sixth floor "just minutes before the Presidential motorcade reached the corner of Houston and Elm" Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was. Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it? Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe. Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there? Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes. Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there? Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes. And the testimony of Mrs. Reid Mr. BELIN. Now, Mrs. Reid, you left lunch about what time? Mrs. REID. Well, I left, I ate my lunch hurriedly, I wasn't watching the time but I wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and I called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about 10 minutes late. But I went down rather soon and stood on the steps. Mr. DULLES. Where was your husband working? Mrs. REID. He works for the records building. Mr. BELIN. Where is that located? Mrs. REID. Well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered across from our building. Mr. BELIN. The records building has one side of it on Elm Street running from Houston to Record Street? Mrs. REID. Yes. Mr. BELIN. And I believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of Elm? Mrs. REID. Yes. Mr. BELIN. Is that correct? Mrs. REID. Yes. Mr. BELIN. All right. Do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it 12, 12:15? Mrs. REID. I think around 12:30 somewhere along in there. Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls? Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone. Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom? Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all. Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there? Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that. Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do? Mrs. REID. I went into the office. Mr. BELIN. You went into your office? Mrs. REID. Yes. Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do? Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else. How does Oswald know that Williams is eating his lunch not 15 feet from the corner from 12- 12:15 so he cannot go up... and finally have you read Jack Dougherty’s testimony? http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/doughert.htm you might find it interesting. #2 Proven – he was elsewhere immediately before and after the shots were fired, no one saw him go up to the floors that were occupied until 12:20 by Williams or even later by Dougherty... and no on e saw him come down. If you can prove, with evidence, that Fritz was wrong when he said they could not put that man in the window at the time of the shots... please do. Please don’t just argue and offer nothing in support. QUOTE 3. He didn't fire a rifle that day Google the parafin tests please... 2 positives on his hands and a negative on his cheek... the hands can lead to many different interpretations, the most damaging that he fired a pistol yet the results should have been positive on the shooting hand and negative on the other unless he was incontact with substances that could cause both positives - which he was during his normal day at work. Nothing on his cheek is the most telling as to why he didn't fire a rifle that day... the fact that nobody fired THAT rifle THAT day is a whole other story... Paraffin eh? Your kidding me right? You do of course know of the unreliability of this test. Let me refresh for you by asking you to read what Cunningham had to say in WCH3p487. "And 17 men were involved in this test. Each man fired five shots from a .38 caliber revolver. Both the firing hand and the hand that was not involved in the firing were treated with paraffin casts, and then those casts treated with diphenylamine. A total of eight men showed negative or essentially negative results on both hands. A total of three men showed positive results on the idle hand, but negative on the firing hand. Two men showed positive results on their firing hand and negative results on their idle hands. And four men showed positive on both hands, after having fired only with their right hands." And then Further: CUNNINGHAM: Yes. We fired the rifle. Mr. Killion fired it three times rapidly, using similar ammunition to that used in the assassination. We reran the tests both on the cheek and both hands. This time we got a negative reaction on all casts. EISENBERG: So to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no residues of any nitrate were picked off Mr. Killion's cheek? CUNNINGHAM: That is correct, and there were none on the hands. We cleaned off the rifle again with dilute HCl. I loaded it for him. He held it in one of the cleaned areas and I pushed the clip in so he would not have to get his hands near the chamber—in other words, so he wouldn’t pick up residues, from it, or from the action, or from the receiver. When we ran the casts, we got no reaction on either hand or on his cheek. On the controls, when he hadn't fired a gun all day, we got numerous reactions. Cunningham had explained earlier why a false negative could arise with the rifle (3H492): EISENBERG: A paraffin test was also run of Oswald's cheek and it produced a negative result. CUNNINGHAM: Yes. EISENBERG: Do your tests, or do the tests which you ran, or your experience with revolvers and rifles, cast any light on the significance of a negative result being obtained on the right cheek? CUNNINGHAM: No, sir; I personally wouldn’t expect to find any residues on a person's right cheek after firing a rifle due to the fact that by the very principles and the manufacture and the action, the cartridge itself is sealed into the chamber by the bolt being closed behind it, and upon firing the case, the cartridge case expands into the chamber filling it up and sealing it off from the gases, so none will come back in your face, and so by its very nature, I would not expect to find residue on the right cheek of a shooter. I find it interesting that you would try to use something that is inconclusive, as an indication of exoneration. Note I said interesting, not surprising. And Mikey... It’s interesting you simply stop with the above and not look into the more complete examination of the paraffin casts which show higher levels on the palms of his hands as opposed to the back of his hands where the residue would be left if he ONLY fired a gun or rifle as opposed to interacting with all the elements found in the TSBD... same story with the cheeks. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/gallagher.htm Mr. REDLICH. Getting back to the hand casts, did you use the outside surface of the hand casts as a control surface? Mr. GALLAGHER. Yes; I did, sir. Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how the inside or the outside surface of the hand cast compared with regard to the elements barium and antimony? Mr. GALLAGHER. Much more barium and antimony were found on the inside of the hand casts than were found on the control specimens taken from the outside of the hand casts of the subject. Mr. REDLICH. All right. Now let us turn to the cheek casts, Mr. Gallagher. Could you tell us the results of your examination of the cheek casts with reference to the presence of the elements barium and antimony? Mr. GALLAGHER. Barium and antimony were found on the cheek casts. However, when the cheek cast was analyzed, both surfaces of the cheek cast were studied. That is, the surface adjacent to the skin of the subject and the surface away from the skin of the subject, or the outside surface of the cast. Mr. REDLICH. For our record, let us call the surface adjacent to the skin the inside surface, and the other surface the outside surface. Mr. GALLAGHER. The outside surface of this cast was found to contain--barium and antimony--actually more barium was found on the outside surface of the cast than on the inside surface. Mr. REDLICH. And as far as antimony is concerned, was there more on the outside than on the inside ? Mr. GALLAGHER. There was slightly less antimony on the outside of the cast than on the inside of the cast. Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any explanation for the presence of barium and antimony on the outside of the cast, and as part of the same question, do you have any explanation for their being more barium on the outside than the inside ? Mr. GALLAGHER. I have no explanation for this difference. And please try to remember that there was not a single fingerprint found on the rifle, nor were there the multiple fingerprints one would expect to find on all the boxes around the SL. Either he was practicing with the rifle and left prints or he never touched the rifle to begin with... there was nothing done to determine whether the rifle was fired that day... And if he did indeed clean and oil the rifle – you of all people should know that looking down the barrel or smelling the barrel would indicate whether it was fired recently. QUOTE 4. The rifle was the worst POS imaginable for a number of reasons Really Mike? If I remember correctly you are knowledgeable about weapons yes? You think a 20+ year old rifle, with 20+ year old ammo, a rickety scope, a badly damaged firing pin and a partially filled "non existent" clip shooting a round with a bent hull was a RELIABLE weapon, was not a POS that repeatedly jammed, was hard to shoot by experts and appeared as if it hadn't been fired or oiled in who knows how long? Really? Yes I have read these claims before. Pure rubbish, and spewed by people who have no idea what they are talking about in regard to firearms. To answer your question, yes, I do think a 20 year old firearm with a partially loaded clip (which is irrelevant) could have done the deed. Now I don’t know exactly what you mean by "non-existent" clip. There is documented proof the clip was in the TSBD. so why not photograph it with ALL the other stuff found up there... like the paper bag in the location it was found – NOT. There were no photos of the clip because there was no clip to photograph. I also assume in talking about the firing pin, you are referring to it showing signs of much use? Imagine that a war rifle showing signs of use. I also suppose you are going to quote that they were afraid to dry fire it because they feared breaking the firing pin. I hear this often, and it is comical. You are aware of the fact that you never dry fire a weapon with this type of pin design aren't you? The reason is, that even if the pin is BRAND NEW, you run the risk of breaking it. They were not afraid to dry fire it because it was defective, they were afraid to because that is standard firearms knowledge. Its also the reason these were made to allow gunsmiths, like myself, to test fire weapons and have a striking surface for the pin: Now a word about the scope. You do realize that it was in very good firing order on 11/27/63 when the FBI tested it? In fact they fired six rounds that made a keyhole in the target!: Of course these rounds were fired at 15 yards. Someone with no knowledge would jump all over that, but what they fail to realize is this is a strong indication that the scope was in fact zeroed in at 400 yards. More about this to come. Yet another completely useless comment by you Mikey... The FBI tests of the Carcano's accuracy showed: 1) FBI firearms expert Robert A. Frazier testified that "It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show that."[59] From 15 yards (14 m), all three bullets in a test firing landed approximately 2 1/2 inches high, and 1-inch (25 mm) to the right, in the area about the size of a dime.[60] At 100 yards (91 m), the test shots landed 2 1/2 to 5 inches (130 mm) high, within a 3 to 5-inch (130 mm) circle. Frazier testified that the scope's high variation would actually work in the shooter's favor: with a target moving away from the shooter, no "lead" correction would have been necessary to follow the target. "At that range, at that distance, 175 feet (53 m) to 265 feet (81 m),[61] with this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any lead — I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size." {so either LHO knows the scope is off - there is no evidence for this at all - and proceeds not to correct it for his killing of the president, OR he does not know its off and would us a lead. If you fired a rifle that was off 2.5-5” would you leave it that way? If you didn’t know it was off would you fire it as if it was... Mr. gunsmith??} 2) The rifle was unable to be "sighted-in", using the scope, without the installation of 2 metal shims (small metal plates) which were not present when the rifle arrived for testing, and were never found.[62] {what do you have for this Mikey?} Frazier testified that there was "a rather severe scrape" on the scope tube, and that the sight could have been bent or damaged. He was unable to determine when the defect occurred before the FBI received the rifle and scope on November 27, 1963. 59. ^ Warren Commission Hearings, Testimony of Robert A. Frazier. 60. ^ Warren Commission Exhibit CE-549. 61. ^ The Warren Commission estimated that President Kennedy was 176.9 feet (53.9 m) to 190.8 feet (58.2 m) from the sixth floor corner window of the Depository when he was shot in the neck, and 265.3 feet (80.9 m) when he was shot in the head. 62. ^ Warren Commission Hearings: 3 WCH 440-5. As for the ridiculousness of the dented shell. Of course it could not have been fired dented, but it sure could have been dented after. Its called a short cycle. I have done it many times, and have seen it done by others. It is simply, not pulling the bolt far enough back to eject the shell, then when you run the bolt forward it hits the chamber lip. So this would have to have been the LAST shot fired since what you describe would not have ejected the shell the first time – the shooter double works the bolt AFTER he sees JFK’s head blow up, and then leaves a live round in the rifle. If the Clip was found on the 6th floor of the TSBD why wasn’t it by the window and other shells since chambering the last round ejects the clip? Why wasn’t it photographed? Who shoved it back into the weapon and why would anyone do that? Try answering a few questions instead of asking for once... QUOTE 4. His .38 did not fire automatic rounds - he did not kill Tippit either 1:34 221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers) *Channel 1 Message* Might can give you some additional information. I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt, and (. . . ?). Last seen running on the north side of the street from Patton, on Jefferson, on East Jefferson. And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand. 1:34pm 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) *Channel 1 Message* The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol. What you would fail to realize is that in the day pistols were automatics, and revolvers were well revolvers. Another epic case of someone not knowing what they are talking about. People who murder with revolvers generally don’t hang around long enough to eject the shells. It is perfectly logical for the officer to assume they were autos, just because they were laying around on the ground. There is no indication that he picked them up and examined them before making the statement. I dare say, can you find the auto and the special in this illustration? I’m not as ballistics expert Mikey... but I’d venture to say an 8 year veteran, now a sergeant of the DPD is better qualified than I am... Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package. Once again – there is nothing that states he simply assumed anything as you try to point out without an ounce of proof – whereas we now have Hill stating specifically he was shown the shells... 1:34pm 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) *Channel 1 Message* The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol. And what a surprise HW Summers was never called to testify Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package. Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package? Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges. Mr. BALL. To the crime lab? Mr. POE. Yes, sir. Wonder where that third shell went..... So you see David, once you apply a little common sense, and actually know what you are talking about things become far more clear. So I would have to give you some advice, based on the advise you gave me. I do my research, thats why is it so easy to debunk foolish theories like to ones you propose. Stop parroting someone elses work, your obviously not an idiot, stop being lazy, and do your own work. Things will become clear for you as well. and you know better than what you post or at least you should. You haven’t “debunked” anything other than the fact you’re to be taken seriously. You know full well the problems with the bullets “that were entered into evidence” don’t even match the ones pulled from Tippit’s body... http://scribblguy.50megs.com/tippit.htm On the very day of Officer Tippit's murder, Dallas homicide had made a summary of all the evidence it had in the case, a most important standard police procedure. Although a number of witnesses mentioned that they had seen cartridges strewn around after the shooting and the early recorded radio messages had described the murder weapon as an automatic because of the ejector marks on cartridges found at the scene, this summary did not include cartridges of any kind. It was not until six days after it had sent the single bullet to the F.B.I. Iab in Washington that the Dallas homicide division finally added four cartridges allegedly found at the scene to the Tippit evidence summary. The cartridges were then sent off to Washington, and the Bureau lab promptly reported back that they indeed had been fired by the same revolver that Oswald allegedly purchased through the mail under the alias of A. Hidell. The Dallas police force may have been relieved to hear this result, but to me the late appearance of the cartridges only focused more attention on the Dallas homicide unit's unconscionable manipulation of evidence. I knew that if the cartridges had actually been fired by Oswald before his arrest, they routinely would have been included in the summary of evidence and sent off to the F.B.I. Lab on the evening of the murder. But these cartridges were not sent until well *after* Dallas homicide had learned that the lab could not find positive markings from Oswald's gun on the single bullet. (This evaluation would have come from the Washington lab to the Dallas Bureau office by telex within 24 hours.) It seemed clear to me what had happened. Having failed to get a positive identification with Oswald's revolver from the bullet, Dallas homicide was not about to send off cartridges with an automatic hand gun's ejector marks on them, even if these were the actual cartridges found at the scene. Instead, someone in the homicide division or cooperating with it had fired the confiscated revolver *after* Oswald's arrest, thereby obtaining the needed cartridges bearing its imprint. Then those cartridges were sent to Washington. However, competence was not the Dallas homicide unit's strong suit, even in fabricating evidence. The F.B.I. Lab found that *two* of the cartridge cases had been manufactured by Western and *two* by Remington. Since the lab had already concluded that *three* of the bullets found in Tippit's body were copper-coated Westerns and *one* was a lead Remington, these numbers simply did not add up. Worse yet, at the Warren Commission hearings it became embarrassingly apparent that the used cartridges that the Dallas homicide team had sent to the F.B.I. Lab were not the cartridges actually found at the scene of Tippit's murder. One witness, Domingo Benavides, found two used cartridge shells not far from the shooting and handed them to Officer J.M. Poe. Dallas Police Sergeant Gerald Hill instructed Poe to mark them i.e., to scratch his initials on them in order to maintain the chain of evidence. This is standard operating procedure for all homicide officers everywhere. Poe informed the Warren Commission that he believed he had marked them, but he could not swear to it. At the Commission hearing Poe examined four cartridges that were shown to him but was unable to identify his marks on them. Sergeant W.E. Barnes informed the Commission that he had received two cartridges from Officer Poe back at police headquarters and had added his own initials to them. However, he too was unable to positively identify the two shells. I can go thru the exercise of providing proof for all these statements but you’re simply not worth the time. And from what I’ve read on so many other threads on this site... I am not alone in these feelings... Good bye and good luck Mikey....

So that's it? You have nothing that places Oswald in the window with that rifle? And you have the gaul to copy and paste an entire post from DVP as your basis for yet another TROLLING ARGUMENT yet you've only known of him for less than a month...? You trust his analysis that much you are willing to associate yourself with him... good or bad... and discount the continuing work of all those who are posting here... Your real profile is coming more and more into focus. One final note before I go back to the reply I've been working on Even your Mr Brennan describes what he hears as a firecraker or backfire AT STREET LEVEL. Yet thinks that it must have been someone 6 stories up throwing something out the window. Sure. MANY other witnesses describe the gunshot sounds as a backfire or firecracker - these are STREET LEVEL sounds since... wait for it... some shots were taken from street level - the GK, Dal-Tex, just not 65 feet up in the air and 120 feet behind the limo.

You're a real curiousity of nature as well Mikey... the fact that you can't see your hand in front of your own face proves how seriously blind you are to reality. 3 whole years of research... and all on your own, well alittle DVP hand holding, you've figured out how to xxxxx, Insult, Bait, Switch, and stay as far away from anything of substance in your posts... Way to go.... DVP and your family must be proud I'll ask one last time but know you have nothing... Please post ANYTHING, in ANY VOLUME of EVIDENCE that someone in a court of law can use to place Lee Harvey Oswald in that window firing that rifle. The piece of real evidence that I posted proves he did not make an identification... Brennan can claim he was the easter bunny and will "prove it later" - no one cares I am still working on the first reply... takes a little time when you have to track down sources and evidence but I haven't forgotten about you buddy.... and btw - the first words out of Chief of Police Curry and Sheriff Decker 12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there. 12:30 1 (Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry) Have Parkland stand by. 12:30 Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. "Bill" Decker) I am sure it's going to take some time to get your man in there. Pull every one of my men in there. 12:30 Dispatcher Dallas 1, repeat, I didn't get all of it. I didn't quite understand all of it. 12:30 Dallas 1 (Sheriff J.E. "Bill" Decker) Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there. Believe whatever you want Mikey - the Church of Lone Nutters is always open for business

Thanks Duncan... Please tell me that the same type of analysis was done on the image to the left, behind the tree, along the southern face of the fence. Never have seen size analysis done on that area... you?

Now I get it Mikey.... You don't actually want to hear anything, you simply want to argue. Simply want to stay wrapped up in the minutia and xxxxx.... Brennan did not ID Oswald... you can understand that statement, right? Please post ANYTHING CONSIDERED EVIDENCE that identifies LHO in the window shooting a rifle, then we can move forward. If you can't do that there's really no point in discussing this with you. finally, if we are going to use testimony as "documentation", testimony without cross-examination, then you MUST accept all the testimony. Do we also have to show you the statements of all the witnesses that place shots coming from the GK??? Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it? Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope. Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had one? Do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know? Mr. BRENNAN. I do not know if it had a scope or not. {He can tell the hieght and weight of a man 6 stories up, kneeling at a window and see MOST of the rifle but cannot testify to seeing a scope or offer positive ID to the DPD or SS... uh, okay. If anything this helps prove that the rifle used was NOT the 6.5 MC that had a scope on it... but then again some witnesses do see a scope} Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing. What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you saw--standing or sitting? Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out. Mr. BELIN. At the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see? Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I could see at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. That was previous to President Kennedy getting there. And I could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. But at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up. Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw? Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun. Mr. BELIN. Do you know what direction the gun was pointing. Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Mr. BELIN. And what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it? Mr. BRENNAN. At somewhat 30 degrees downward and west by south. Mr. BELIN. Do you know down what street it was pointing? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. Down Elm Street toward the railroad underpasses. Mr. BELIN. Now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now? Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not of any importance. I don't remember anything else except-- Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. How many shots did you hear? Mr. BRENNAN. Positively two. I do not recall a second shot-- Mr. BELIN. By a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise? Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; that is right. I don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers throwed out of the Book Store unless I did hear the second shot, because I positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously must have heard a second shot, but I do not recall it. I could not swear to it. Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor? Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10. Mr. BELIN. About what weight? Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds. Here's your FAIR complexion, 5'10" 170 lb man http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_3002.pdf Autopsy - 5'9" 150lb

My pleasure Mike... when I say something I like to have the evidence to back it. WHY he doesn't put his name to an identification is of no consequence Mike. He doesn't. Everything you've quoted is, once again, hearsay... Brennan's story. And he does this on front of Sorrells, he has his chance to ID Oswald for a Federal agent and doesn't. If you're going to believe people for what they say... a citizen to boot, why not believe an experience police officer Roger Craig? Because his story does not jive with what you believe are the facts... never mind how much substantiation is offered. Please post an actual piece of evidence that shows Brennan identifies Oswald at any time - and that Roger Craig DID NOT SEE OSWALD get into a station wagon.... And "they" didn't kill people FOR identifying Oswald, people were killed for NOT, for saying MORE than 3 shoots were fired, that shots were fired from the GK.

Working on a reply - The document above is EVIDENCE that Mr. Brennan does not ID LHO as the assassin. More to come.... DJ

I replied within 90 minutes of today's post Mikey... can't remember where you put the gloves or hoping that DVP will fight this battle for you as well? That's the story with bullies... any retaliation and off they go and I found where you pulled that quote of mine - it was the first response on a thread about what people thought the REAL story of the assassination might be We all notice you only went to the thread, took what you wanted from my post, and left... nothing original of your own nothing to add to the discussion Here is my post in full and the thread http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15980 An interesting approach Tom... good luck. So you think we have the WC with "Oswald in the TSBD with a rifle... 3 shots 2 hits... Oswald killed, story over, go home. I'd be happy if we could simply present a few... "This is why Oswald could not have done it" narratives to high school and let them decide for themselves... we don't teach modern history and we dont teach accurate 19/20th century history... can you imnagine how History since Nixon would be taught! 1. No one saw him do it 2. He was seen elsewhere just before and just after.. with a woman who told a researcher she was giving him change when the shots were fired. 3. He didn't fire arifle that day 4. The rifle was the worst POS imaginable for a number of reasons 4. His .38 did not fire automatic rounds - he did not kill Tippit either Or that shots really were fired from the GK area. Your subject of choice, global capitalism, is also a very interesting one I try to follow yet for me it always comes back to the Banks, the National, centralized banking system... capitalism at it's finest... Anyway... One simple read of Survivor's Guilt and the 25th Amendment to the Constitution... add in Military Intelligence, Naval Intelligence and you have the players, the reason and the means. All Mafia men lie, period. It all starts and ends with the Military... most every president, congressman, CIA, FBI, SS Treasury agent etc... in 1963 had been in the military, knew how to take and obey orders, had been to war and by God that young, cocky, Catholic playboy was trying to end the cold war, not win it. Americans win things... or keep them going until they do or everyone has stoped noticing. The fact that Big Texas Oil and the Fed got a free pass... my guess is those here discussing killing JFK had also been in the military. The short narrative...? 3 military trained men with rifles ambushed JFK in DP while the Secret Service not only slept but help set it up... those that remained in government covered it up to keep their phoney, baloney jobs and make lots and lots of money. 25th Amendment Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. Created, promoted and ratified under the LBJ presidency... only they did it just a little before it was officially and legally okay. And used quite a bit of more excessive force than prescribed.. My .02 DJ May not be the most correct of scenarios but I put it out there for discussion and I've enjoyed reading Cliff's comments on Harriman et al as well as Jack's regarding Dulles to name just a couple... allows my own theories to either be adjusted or confirmed or combined... that's why this is called The Education Forum and not "Fantasy World According to DVP and MW" Still waiting on DVP for answers?

Mikey - Reading thru this thread all we find is you once again copy/pasting someone elses words, thoughts conclusions with not a single one of your own.. my mistake, you do tell us how much a stamp weighs. You DONT address the issue of CE399 being a complete fabrication and only defer to the person you stole from - DVP... Mike Williams Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 769 Joined: 31-October 07 From DVP, DVP said exactly:"You can't prove any initials were "erased". You just want to believe that. And even if something was erased, you can't prove that such action was conspiratorial in nature. Can you, Bob?" --- DVP; 05/19/10 So lets see. In Harris theory the initials of Bell, turn out to be that of Fritz when turned over! Hilariously stupid error in my book You can insult real well, you can condemn others using what yet a third person wrote... but when it comes to posting something from your own little mind the best you have is "stupid error" and more quotes from your mentor DVP. How about YOU debating with Bill - bring SOMETHING to the table beyond "DVP said...." are you not able to formulate your own opinions and back them with your own research and your own illustrations and your own conclusions? As you so eloquently posted Time to put up or SHUT UP... or maybe you can have DVP write you a note - say you have a doctor's appointment or your dog ate your homework

Mike... Didn't know you cared so much, now it feels like I have 2 ex-wives. There is simply no need to avoid you or your posts... Never did see this one and it must have jumped off the first page fairly quickly - but missed your direct "Call out" until your juvenille "assumption" post. Each one of these points has been made numerous times - plus I'd like to know from which post you chose this little tidbit and whether there is a context you are skipping with your copy/paste skills. a Link to the thread you took it from would be helpful. I am sure you will attempt to show us all the error of my ways and assumptions - I look forward to you addressing each of these points and my reasoning as well as offering something of substance to prove your position. or do you just randomly pick bits and pieces of posts and argue for the sake of arguing? 1. No one saw him do it Even Fritz is obviously disappointed when he says that they cannot place him (Oswald) in the window with a rifle at the time of the shots while the one witness, Brennan, in his book "Eyewitness to History" says: I said brusquely, “He looks like the man, but I can’t say for sure!” I needed some time to think. I turned to Mr. Lish, who had detected my resentment and said, “Let’s go back to the office. We have some talking to do.” As we went, I commented that the man in the lineup wasn’t dressed the same way the man in the window had been. Brennan was the one and only witness putting Oswald in that window and he refused to ID him... for a variety of reasons... but this left the DPD with no one to ID Oswald. As I wrote... "No one saw him (LHO) do it" Unless you have something to add to the thread other that insulting attacks 2. He was seen elsewhere just before and just after.. with a woman who told a researcher she was giving him change when the shots were fired. Do we really need to do the Oswald timeline again? He's seen as late as 12:15-12:20 on the first floor - and please try to remember if he was the lone assassin he has no way of knowing EXACTLY when the limo is passing... based on what the public knew JFK would pass by anytime between 11:55 and 12:25 (luncheon had public start times of both 12 and 12:30). Add to this that Williams is eating his lunch, at a 6th floor window until 12:15 or so. And then again LHO is seen in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:31 - maybe... the Baker/Truly/Oswald rememberance of this event is still very much at odds with each other. I wish I could find the person who posted the comment about a woman coming forward claiming to have been giving Oswald change for the Coke machine on his trip from the 1st floor to the 2nd, before he buys the coke. Maybe someone can come to my aid while I continue to look for it.... Bottom line? Oswald was not on the 6th floor when witnesses saw numerous men with rifles moving about on that floor. Mrs Reid definitely places a coke in his hand as he walks thru her office out towards the front, after the "Baker" encounter. 3. He didn't fire a rifle that day Google the parafin tests please... 2 positives on his hands and a negative on his cheek... the hands can lead to many different interpretations, the most damaging that he fired a pistol yet the results should have been positive on the shooting hand and negative on the other unless he was incontact with substances that could cause both positives - which he was during his normal day at work. Nothing on his cheek is the most telling as to why he didn't fire a rifle that day... the fact that nobody fired THAT rifle THAT day is a whole other story... 4. The rifle was the worst POS imaginable for a number of reasons Really Mike? If I remember correctly you are knowledgeable about weapons yes? You think a 20+ year old rifle, with 20+ year old ammo, a rickety scope, a badly damaged firing pin and a partially filled "non existent" clip shooting a round with a bent hull was a RELIABLE weapon, was not a POS that repeatedly jammed, was hard to shoot by experts and appeared as if it hadn't been fired or oiled in who knows how long? Really? 4. His .38 did not fire automatic rounds - he did not kill Tippit either 1:34 221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers) *Channel 1 Message* Might can give you some additional information. I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt, and (. . . ?). Last seen running on the north side of the street from Patton, on Jefferson, on East Jefferson. And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand. 1:34pm 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) *Channel 1 Message* The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...H24_CE_2011.pdf The chain of evidence, the inability to identify the shells in evidence, the fact that LHO pistol was completely loaded and misfired in the theater, that the shells in evidence do no match the bullets removed from Tippit, that he was actually walking in the opposite direction as the WCR states - if it was Oswald at all - which means an even longer trip in which not a single soul sees him... Your turn Mikey... make us understand how Oswald killed both men with the weapons you'd like him to have used, while leaving evidence that contradicts itself Plague on... DJ

and the crowd goes wild.....

then I'll just stay in bold - and I will edit out a lot of the repeat text for space.... I'll argue going forward that the inter-locking Harriman/Rockefeller dynasties were/are "the Management." DJ: In 1963, Harriman was an important figure in negotiating the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty between the US and the USSR. I have a hard time believing he does this on his own... pushing this Treaty sounds much more in line with Golitsyn's Perestroika declarations regarding LT Soviet strategy, I venture to say that anything that might jeapardize his relationship wioth the Soviets, or the US>USSR relationship was not in his best interest... but Management? Sounds more like following orders than creating them... CV: DJ: Let's take a look at a couple of items, one to gauge where Bundy was coming from, and one to illustrate the position of the US military in the soon-to-be hot War in 'Nam. This is from Peter Dale Scott: http://www.history-matters.com/pds/DP3_Chapter5.htm#_ftn41 (quote on) As early as January 4, 1963, Bundy proposed to President Kennedy that the possibility of communicating with Castro be explored. (Memorandum, Bundy to the President, 1/4/63). Bundy's memorandum on "Cuba Alternatives" of April 23 [sic, i.e. April 21], 1963, also listed the "gradual development of some form of accommodation with Castro" among policy alternatives. (Bundy memorandum, 4/21/63) At a meeting on June 3, 1963, the Special Group agreed it would be a "useful endeavour" to explore "various possibilities of establishing channels of communication to Castro." (Memorandum of Special Group meeting, 6/6/63). (quote off) If one of the major beefs the US military had with Kennedy was his alleged weakness in the Cold War -- and if McGeorge Bundy's loyalties were with the US military above all else -- how was it that Bundy was proposing accommodation with Castro? DJ: As the Old saying goes... keep your friends close and your enemies closer. It is no surprise that he would suggest that type of detente with Cuba, all the while the Military, CIA, et al. are planning adn implementing raids, sabotage, etc... AGAINST Cuba. Isn't there an inherent contradiction in that construction? DJ: Over time Cliff, I have come to learn, esp[ecially in this area of study, that inherent contradictions is one of the cornerstones of deniability. Espionnage is full of contradiction at the operational level and for good reason. Why does Ms. Rice say they had never ever conceived of planes flying into buildings... because that was the story being sold at the time. And what to we make of the following Richard Starnes dispatch? (emphasis added): (quote on) The Washington Daily News, Wednesday, October 2, 1963, p.3 'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE 'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam SAIGON, Oct.2 - The story of the Central Intelligence Agency's role in South Viet Nam is a dismal chronicle of bureaucratic arrogance, obstinate disregard of orders, and unrestrained thirst for power...... {edit}[/b] (quote off) I don't think this jibes with an "all-powerful" US military calling the shots. The above reference to "that man...wearing a colonel's uniform" undoubtedly referred to Col. Lucien Conein, a notorious CIA operator who happened to be in the military. I think these two citations illustrate the factional nature of the US power elite in 1963, and argues against the notion of monolithic military control. DJ: From Spartacus: When the Second World War broke out in 1939 Conein returned to France and joined the French Army. After the German invasion in 1940 Conein returned to the United States. He now joined the U.S. Army but because of his knowledge of France he was transferred to the Office of Strategic Services (OSS). The revolving door between CIA and the Military never ends... the CIA may be able to alot done yet with Military assisstance (ala Prouty's experiences) you have the difference between Cuba and Vietnam. One question Cliff... Which do you have more faith in... the Military being sidetracked by the CIA in any of its endeavours or the CIA being sidetracked by the Military... who's in control? DJ: Do we know who else was in the WH Sitroom that might have passed him this information to convey to AF1 and the Cabinet Plane? Good question. We do know that it was Harriman who let the Soviets off the hook mere hours after the assassination. And Pentagon aide Col. William Corson related the view of at least one Kennedy insider that McGeorge Bundy was more loyal to his Skull & Bones brother Harriman than to JFK. I doubt that the entire administration and the Joint Chiefs just took his word for it.... and loyalty does not equate to control or Management. I do not take anything away from the influence Harriman could exert... but pulling the strings? I'd need more evidence of that. I can see that left to the military alone, blaming the Soviets and pushing for a BIG war might have been the tact… the less world-devastating local “Wars” remain profitable and lets everyone keep playing the Cold War game while still engaging in a Hot ones. According to this site Bundy did serve… I stand corrected. McGeorge Bundy http://www.answers.com/topic/mcgeorge-bundy Deemed unfit for military service because of nearsightedness, he memorized the eye chart in order to join the army as a private and rose to become a captain by the end of World War II. {I’d say he was a very dedicated military man who understood the chain of command, and how to circumvent it ….) I'd argue that, like millions of Americans who served in WW2, Bundy returned to civilian life and resumed his primary loyalties to his family and his peers. and I continue to argue that... once in the military, always in the military. The CIA did not tell Humes and Bowsell to lie and then keep their mouths shut under order of court-martial... A military plane, military hospital, military personnel with the Secret Service along for every step of the way... imo. By 1965 the die was cast in Vietnam and Harriman had everything he wanted: a de-militarized Laos and a heavily militarized Vietnam. Johnson wasn't through with Harriman, of course, as the blue-blood was brought back for the Paris peace negotiations in '68. {edit out} Angleton was a real piece of work. Harriman was an untouchable. As a protege of the Rockefellers, Kissinger was also an untouchable. {edit out} A highly sanitized bio of the man. Left out the parts wherein Harriman helped develop the Soviet oil industry in Baku, which became one of the main targets of the German war machine, also primarily financed by Harriman interests. I am sure ALOT was left out of that bio... Hopefully I can get to more tonight... DJ A thoroughly enjoyable exchange, David! I look forward to further discussion with you on this thread, and with Monk and Bill as well. yes indeed Cliff... quite nicely done. and yes, agreed, Harriman was extremely influential and benefitted himself and his "partners" wherever they may be. But he does not spend Billions on Defense, Offense, Research, Manpower, etc... the MIC did and does, do you honestly believe they do not have a large portion of the seats available at the BIG table of World Affairs? just becasue they're the MIC doesn't mean they always get what they want as they want it... sometime you need to take three steps back or sideways to take the 50 steps ahead.... It used to start and end with the military... I think the change in world situation has made the seats at that table a bit harder to keep.... more players with more money in an ever shrinking world... 9/11 doesn't happen without Military "failures". At the core I think we are saying almost the same things... Kings and Fools... one simply need to figure out which one they are.... and proceed with caution. DJ

Interesting statement Jack... "Irrelevent - unless it is LHO....." so, uh, not really irrelevent. As long as it is not positively identified as Lovelady... and you post "IF it was Lovelady" (my emphasis) it is very relevent that it is positively not Oswald. If NOT Lovelady it is even more relevent. WHO it is OTHER than Oswald is irrelevent - maybe. So far I've seen very little that has been "irrelevent" in this case. Respectfully DJ

I've only begun to look into the information on the thread and your post in particular Cliff... I'll start with this and get your reactions... for as I say below, I agree with much of what you present and feel that Harriman was a key player in bridging Management to Operations without disclosing exactly who "management" was/is. That’s a pretty broad statement about Bundy, Cliff. the "either" you refer to was the Mafia, and that makes sense, but Bundy and the Joint Chiefs had to be working together on many levels... why again not here? Do we know who else was in the WH Sitroom that might have passed him this information to convey to AF1 and the Cabinet Plane? I can see that left to the military alone, blaming the Soviets and pushing for a BIG war might have been the tact… the less world-devastating local “Wars” remain profitable and lets everyone keep playing the Cold War game while still engaging in a Hot ones. According to this site Bundy did serve…. McGeorge Bundy http://www.answers.com/topic/mcgeorge-bundy Deemed unfit for military service because of nearsightedness, he memorized the eye chart in order to join the army as a private and rose to become a captain by the end of World War II. {I’d say he was a very dedicated military man who understood the chain of command, and how to circumvent it ….) I see there are some different thoughts on Mr. Harriman…: I agree with your assessment of the man yet I feel that most in the LBJ government did not want to “publically” find Soviet fingerprints on the assassination. They wanted to fight the Soviets piece-meal, one country at a time and Vietnam was just the place to start. Can’t imagine the Soviets wanted to risk an all out nuclear war either – and given what I’ve read from Golitsyn the longer term plan was to deceive and encourage the depletion of resources of the US, not engage in assassination and mutual annihilation. "Well, what [Lyndon] Johnson did was, he did one thing before he expanded the war [in Vietnam] and that is he got rid of one way or another all the people [in the Kennedy administration] who had opposed making it an American war. Averell Harriman, he was Under Secretary of State, he made him roving ambassador for Africa so he'd have nothing to do with Vietnam.... He found out that I'd spent part of my childhood in the Philippines, and he tried to persuade me to become ambassador to the Philippines.... Johnson was a very clever man.... He knew who were the hawks and who were the doves. He systematically rid the top layers of the American government of the doves...." --Roger Hilsman, Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs under President Kennedy, interviewed on CNN.com/ColdWar, 8 June 1996 "The in-house coalition of conservatives who opposed the Nixon-Kissinger moves toward detente in 1972 was similar to the one which opposed the Kennedy-Harriman detente initiatives in 1963. It still included [counterintelligence chief] James Angleton in the CIA, who in the 1960s had suspected Harriman of being a Soviet spy, and who in the 1970s reportedly 'objectively' believed Kissinger to be a Soviet spy.'" Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics and the Death of JFK Harriman, W. (illiam) Averell http://www.answers.com/topic/w-averell-harriman (1891-1986) businessman and public official, born in New York City. Harriman held a variety of positions during Democratic administrations from Franklin D. Roosevelt to Lyndon B. Johnson. Harriman was Roosevelt's special representative (”defense expediter”) to Britain for the government program that provided material support to U.S. allies (1941-43). As the number-two man in the Economic Cooperation Administration, he was largely responsible for division of Marshall Plan aid among the nations of western Europe (1948-50). In 1950, early in the Korean War, he served briefly as a special assistant to President Harry S. Truman. As director of the Mutual Security Administration (1951-53), Harriman supervised the rearmament of America's allies in Europe, dispensing billions in military assistance. In 1961 he joined President John F. Kennedy's administration as assistant secretary of state for Far Eastern affairs and undersecretary of state for political affairs; in 1963 he negotiated and signed the Limited Test Ban Treaty. In the role of ambassador-at-large during the Johnson administration (1965-68), Harriman began negotiations for peace in Vietnam. Between his early and later Washington assignments, Harriman served a single term as governor of New York (1955-59). Hopefully I can get to more tonight... DJ

Yep - money...being a DJ myself I cannot argue with that....seeing as how it's right Here's that link I was referring to earlier... still haven't had the time to digest... Maybe on my lunch hour. http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html

Well then... Great stuff, indeed. I will dig it up, the link or post the essay, ... a History of Money and the importance of maintaining a nation's central banking system which partly lead us to the men and concepts that have been presented in this thread. Money gets you into everything. Those who control it, control all. Jack, excellent point about Allen... and him sitting on the Warren Commission, the "perfect" covert op. Cliff - uh, been meaning to get something off your chest there? I've read about these men and their time in History, not nearly enough to know how much your enthusiam colors your analysis, but enough to know you make some interesting and thoughtful statements... with that in mind I'd like a few days to digest, research and reply... sadly this little passion of mine gets much less time that I'd like. Very cool... this whole place makes my day DJ

Well put Greg... excellent post

Hey there Jim... I think you'll need a bit more proof to convince me... They are similiar but that's not Oswald DJ

Hi Cliff... I disagree with your assessment - and if you have the answers to your questions please post them as I see these three things very much militarily controlled. from Salandria "Tale of Two Tapes" Despite the evidence of conspiracy of which Dealey Plaza reeked, the White House Situation Room had informed President Johnson and the other occupants of Air Force One that, notwithstanding what they may have smelled, seen and felt in Dealey Plaza which spoke of a conspiratorial crossfire, Oswald was to be designated as the lone assassin. Who do you suppose was in the WH Situation room telling them this? How many non-military people are even allowed in the WH Situation room? Are you speaking of Bundy? McCone? Logged meetings/Calls or not? please explain, thanks I guess it depends on how you look at it... If guns and drugs are being run in and out of the country then those who would have the authority to order Ruby to kill Oswald may have done so at the insistence of the military who was in essence overseeing those operations... or at least turning a blind - and very well paid - eye. I made the argument before that in 1963 EVERYONE had been in the military in one form or another... everyone given any real responsibility at least. By the age of 18 you were registered, drafted and indoctrinated to the military way of things... the "pan-organization" you speak of is ultimately controlled by the military establishment... no? Business caters to them, countries are used for their resources by them, and they are intimately connected (and in most cases direct the activities of) the military and security forces of these other countries... a standing military force is one of the founding principle of the US government - been around since the early 1700's. They have the most money, loyalty, organization, reach, men/women and power. No matter where you were... CIA, NSA, Congress, Legal, etc... you came out of the military. and you followed your orders, regardless of whether you were inside or out... or else. Because there were plenty of other countries in central and south american to control... Cuba had limited land mass, hostile environment and was too close.. Vietnam was the issue not Cuba and the military/CIA/Henry Cabot Lodge knew it. Billions in drugs and weapons and no one looking over your shoulder... that's why. If not all stemming from and thru the military, then we have LBJ, the Cabinet and Congress... the 25th Amendment with the express cooperation of the Joint Chiefs I'm very interested in your explanation of the "pan-organizational" entity... thanks DJ

Mike... so it does not fall out when the last round was either chambered or ejected? Not a single person mentions it, photographs it, marks it, carries it... and it was loaded with only 4 bullets that Oswald never purchased in a clip that was never purchased. and later, after the rifle has disappeared for most the Day (pun intended) it just appears. I'm going to need a bit more than just your word for it. What leads you to believe it was still in the rifle or EVER on the 6th floor of the TSBD?? thanks DJ

Exhibit 517 is the photo of the rifle still between the boxes. I use Boone as he specifically mentions the time the rifle was found yet incorrectly places the assassination at 1pm. "It was 1pm when we heard the shots" Simply trying to put the timeline in context. Also to put Truly's statements into context - he is fairly sure Fritz is with the rifle and Truly's gone up there not too long after 1pm Mr. BALL - The diagram on the sixth floor, as the Commission knows, has been correlated with certain pictures. I now have Commission Exhibit 517 marked, which has the figure 35 on it, which corresponds to the position of the camera at the time the picture was taken. In other words, at about point 35 on this map. And now I show you a photograph marked 517. Is that about the way the rifle looked when you first saw it? Mr. BOONE - Yes; it is. There was some newsman up there right behind Officer Whitman and myself who took movie film of it too. I don't know his name. Mr. BALL - What time was it? Mr. BOONE - 1:22 p.m. in the afternoon. Mr. BALL - 1 :22? Mr. BOONE - Yes. Mr. BALL - You looked at your watch? Mr. BOONE - That is correct. Mr. BALL - And made a note of it? Mr. BOONE - Yes; I did. Fritz arrives at 12:58 Hill with Boone and Mooney and someone else go up to the 7th and then down to the 6th floor right away Over Alyea's film you can hear someone say "Gerry Hill just leaned out the window" .. Is that Decker with Fritz walking in? .. It cuts to street cops as Fritz goes in - the shadows are very long, at this point, or so it seems .. at 24 seconds in they are just trampling all over that crime scene corner, they seem to be standing on the hulls .. at 27/28/29 seconds it appears as if Fritz is holding a hull and while talking... watch the space between the 2 men and you can see his hand - don't see much of it - wish I could work with that video - I may have the mpg and will try tomorrow I believe it is Gerry Hill who tells Sawyer when/where the hulls were found a minute or so before he radios in at 1:11pm. Hill doesn't find the hulls, Mooney does After Hill meets Fritz at the elevator - I place this about 1:07/1:08pm - he takes him over as the testimony says... The hulls were found before Fritz arrives, before Hill shows him where and before Hill gets to the ground floor to meet with Sawyer, that's got to take a couple-few minutes, no? Plus Hill takes a minute or so to speak with Lt Day... Hill's WC testimony Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route. About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right." And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay any attention. So I hope you see that I don't think they waited very long at all... just took 4-7 minutes to get up there, find it, tell Fritz, tell Day, tell Sawyer and have it broadcast at 1:11pm. the rifle was found not too long after that. Riddle me this batman If someone fired and ejected the hulls as they were shooting... where was the clip? Kidding aside... I think we can see that the hulls were found before 1:12 and Fritz may have just entered or had only recently entered the building when they were found. Truly puts the time even earlier. and then LATER, imo, boxes were stacked and moved and photographed and, and, and... it all becomes like comparing the xrays to the photos... pointless. DJ

I believe that events happened much earlier as well as much later on the 6th floor. Shells/Hulls and rifles were found in a variety of places, imo, and little by little I'd like to prove it. IMO the key players are Hill, Sawyer, Alyea, Truly, Mooney and Boone… Roger Craig is not mentioned by a single one of these witnesses! and the hulls were definitely found before 1:11 while the rifle had to have been found not much later... well before the official 1:22. I’ve tried to keep a timeline going but there is a little jump around to substantiate my {thoughts}. {Sawyer only receives the news of the hulls being found from someone who had found them... he never went up to the 6th floor. Someone came down and told Sawyer... who and when? Hill comes down sometime between 12:50 when he gets to the TSBD and 1:11 when Sawyer calls in the hulls being found.} Dispatcher 10-4. 1:11 p.m. 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On the 5th floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now. {Mike - Sawyer says the fifth, Hoover says the fifth, Alyea says the fifth, Mooney came up from the 5th to the 6th floor... it also appears that the food and soda were also down on the 5th floor} Mr. HILL. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining to the President's trip or any other function other than the investigation of police applicants. Mr. BELIN. When did you leave the city hall? …. {Hill con’t} I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure was Inspector Sawyer---but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't say for sure--- saying we think we have located the building where the shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help. At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets. The captain said, "Go ahead and go." {Capt. W. R. Westbrook, who was my commander} From the DPD transcripts 12:41 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) “We need some more men down at the Texas School Book Depository. We should have some on Main if we could get someone to pick up and bring them down here.” {Meanwhile Fritz is on route to the hospital yet I thought it only took a few minutes to get to Parkland… they left at 12:33 and still in route at 12:41??} 12:41 Ch2 300 (Captain John Will Fritz) En route to the hospital. 12:47 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2 12:47 Dispatcher Go ahead 550. 12:47 550 car 2 550/2 and 104 en route to Elm and Houston, Code 3. {Hill con’t} We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told him the President was shot. And he said, "Where are you going?" And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came from." And he said, "Could I go with you?" So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what the number was. We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left, went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston, Jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there. I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so." And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?" And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out." About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from homicide. a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy sheriffs came up. {came up as in “to the front of the TSBD” or up into the building?? In wither case we can assume this happens at 12:58} Mr. FRITZ. Well, sir; we arrived there---we arrived at the hospital at 12:45, if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at 12:58. Mr. BALL. 12:58; the Texas School Book Depository Building. Mr. FRITZ. Yes. … Mr. BALL - And who were you with? Mr. BOONE - Officer Mooney was out there, I believe, and several of the office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what have you. Ralph Walters, Buddy Walthers, Allen Sweatt, L. C. Smith. Officer Gramstaff. That is about all I can remember. Mr. BALL - What happened there? Mr. BOONE – Well, it was approximately 1 o'clock when we heard the shots. {AND THIS IS THE MAN WE ARE TRUSTING WITH THE 1:22 TIMING OF FINDING THE RIFLE??} The motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the north on Houston Street. And we heard what we thought to be a shot. And there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot and third shots--a little longer pause. And we raced across the street there. Mr. BALL - Did you go up into the building then? Mr. BOONE – I took him {Bowers} on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the ID Bureau to be developed. Placed him in the sheriff's office at that time to await somebody to take a statement from him. Then some other officers, Ralph Walters and Officer Gramstaff, and I don't know whether—I don't remember Officer Mooney was with them or not at that time they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights. They said they wanted to look around in the attic. And there were a bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and they couldn't see. So we got the lights and went over to the building. At that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor. Mr. BALL - Somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor? Mr. BOONE - Well, that is just where everybody was going. And they said five floors below that--I believe Inspector Sawyer with the city was out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being searched or had been already searched. This was after Officer Mooney found the shells. Mr. BALL - Did somebody tell you Officer Mooney had found some shells? Mr. BOONE - Not him in particular. They said the shells had been found on the sixth floor. At that time, I didn't know he had found them. {Boone places the shots at 1pm, is back at the sheriff’s office, gets back to the TSBD and knows that Mooney found the hulls, just as Hill describes… yet not nearly as late as Boone is trying to say. Mike is not so far off… Boone’s watch was 30 minutes fast!!} {Mr. Hill’s action while Fritz is “running back and forth from floor to floor”} Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? Mr. HILL. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies* and I went down to sixth. I started to the right side of the building. Mr. BELIN. When you say the right side, you mean---- Mr. HILL. Well, it would have been the west side. Mr. BELIN. All right, they moved over to the east side? Mr. HILL. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect. I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window. Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window. Mr. FRITZ. We began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors. Mr. McCLOY. Which floor did you start with? Mr. FRITZ. We started at the bottom; yes, sir. And, of course, and I think we went up probably to the top. Different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something I should know about and I ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges. Mr. BALL. That was on the sixth floor? Mr. FRITZ. That is right; the sixth floor, corner window. Mr. BALL. What did you do? Mr. FRITZ. I told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and I left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints. Mr. BALL. Which officers, which officer did you leave there? Mr. FRITZ. Carl Day was the man I talked to about taking pictures. {So this MUST occur between 12:58 and 1:11, more realistically between 1:03 and 1:09 since it takes time for Hill to get up and down to the 6th floor and for Fritz to also get to the 6th floor yet we know Hill tells Sawyer about the hulls BEFORE the 1:11 transmission} {This begins to conflict with Truly’s story about going up to talk to Fritz about Oswald BEFORE 1pm yet he does feel as if the rifle was found when he gets there} Mr. BALL. While you were there Mr. Truly came up to you? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; where the rifle was found. That was about the time we finished Mr. Truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and I asked his name and he gave me his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, and I asked his address and he gave me the Irving address. Mr. BALL. This was after the rifle was found? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; after the rifle was found. Mr. BALL. Another witness has testified that the rifle was found at 1:22 p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory? Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I might have that here. I don't think I have that time. Mr. BALL. Do you have the time at which the shells were found? Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I don't have that time. {Truly has a very hard time with the time being at least 1:22 when he went up… he went in with Baker, ran up the stairs to the roof and came back down again to learn that Oswald was gone (see my previous post for statements) met with Lumpkin and was taken immediately up to Fritz. {Hill con't} Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on the sixth floor from the sheriff's office. Mr. BELIN. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, *I believe I said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar? Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them. {At some point after the hulls are found Hill meets Fritz at the elevator after Fritz had started on the first floor to work his way up... Hill and others - Boone, Mooney and ? went to the 7th floor and worked down (supposedly Alyea was working his way up with Fritz) . } Mr. HILL:…. …When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route. {This takes a couple of minutes… so yes, Fritz is in the building when the hulls are found but is NOT on the 6th floor at the time not is he outside with Decker as Mooney claims yet as a Deputy Sheriff Mooney had to be more concerned with alerting Decker than Fritz… he could have assumed Fritz was simply with Decker yet may not have seen him.} Sawyer’s transmission at 1:11 Dispatcher 10-4. 1:11 p.m. 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On the 5th floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now. Mr. BELIN. We will call this Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B. I see here that you go on at 12:45 p.m., with this statement by your No. 9. You want to read it? Mr. SAWYER. Yes. Mr. BELIN. "From this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. Unknown if he was there in the first place." Mr. BELIN. Then it reads back here, "All the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." That is the central headquarters back to you, is that it? Mr. SAWYER. That's right. Mr. BELIN. That is at least after 12:45 p.m., and before 12:48 p.m.? Mr. SAWYER. Right. Mr. BELIN. Now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is 1:12 p.m. What does that say? Mr. SAWYER. "We have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time." Mr. BELIN. Then is there anything else? Mr. SAWYER. This was reported to me by somebody inside the building. Mr. BELIN. That was at 1:12 p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? This doesn't say anything else. It apparently doesn't go in detail much past 1:58 p.m., on Sawyer Deposition. Exhibit B, and 1:53 p.m., on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit A. Mr. SAWYER. That's right. ." From the Logs: 12:45 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On this building, it's unknown whether he is still in the building or not known if he was there in the first place. 1:11 9 (Inspector J.H. Sawyer) On the fifth floor of this book company down here, we found empty rifle hulls and it looked like the man had been here for some time. We are checking it out now. {as an aside... It's between 12:58 and 1:12 or so that Tippet is murdered} {Hill’s testimony later on} I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt. C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there that day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know what' we wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene. Mr. BELIN. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene? Mr. HILL. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could have been 19. Mr. BELIN. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill. Mr. HILL. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio {1:16 transmission} that said something to the effect that, if I remember right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the 400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead. {G.L. Hill helps find the hulls and winds up in the car with the .38 revolver in his hands, not 20 minutes before the shells he was shown provided a different result} Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is? Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver, Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle. 1:26 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 500/2. 1:26 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) I'm at Twelfth and Beckley now. Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him. 1:34 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2. 1:34 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol. 1:46 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2. 1:46 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Do you have any additional information on this Oak Cliff suspect? 1:46 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 10-4. 1:52 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2. 1:52 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Suspect on the shooting the police officer is apprehended and en route to the station. 1:52 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theater after a fight. 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2. 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 223 is in the car with us. See if someone can pick up his car at the rear of the Texas Theater and take it to the station. It's got the keys in it. 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) We're bringing the prisoner straight to the City Hall. 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) 550/2. 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Special Service unit is with us also. We're in his car, 492. 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Zangs and Colorado. 1:53 550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill) Yes, sir. Him and his gun. {On the drive back } Mr. HILL. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either. About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification." Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out. I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card. And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under. Mr. BELIN. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell? Mr. HILL. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard. Mr. BELIN. Was this the first time you learned of the name? Mr. HILL. Yes; it was. {I believe the hulls were found by 1:03 or 1:04, Mooney yells out to Decker and mistakenly says Fritz was also down there Hill looks out the window for Fritz (possibly) and decides to go down and find him... Fritz arrives at the 6th floor about 1:05/1:06 and does his thing... (I am positive there is testimony about the surprise at least one observer has to Fritz picking the hulls up... just need to find it) The rifle is found soon after (Hill says nothing about the rifle, he's on his way towards Oak Cliff) I hope I got this post correct as I've moved stuff around and been doing quite a bit of research at the same time. My memory is pretty good about detail yet I like to have the source material handy. DJ

Mike/Lee... Not trying to butt in here... just enjoy the subject. Truly puts his discussion with Fritz (about LHO) and the finding of the rifle much earlier than 1:20-1:25... more like 12:50-1pm and according to Hill, the casing were found well before 1:15. In fact... before Ball helps Truly change his mind... the rifle was found earlier as well... Truly’s questioning was yet another example of leading the witness about the timing and location of key personnel… it’s appalling actually. Mooney calls to Fritz on the Ground when the shells are found – unknown configuration Decker says Fritz arrives after he does even though they are together Alyea claims he sees the shells in a small area, bunched together Craig claims he was with Mooney (Craig is not mentioned at all during Mooney’s Testimony) and also sees them bunched together... Hill has yet another story… which also includes calling down yet he is on the way down (AFTER FINDING THE SHELLS) when he runs into Fritz on the way up!?!? Representative FORD. When you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that Oswald was not among them? Mr. TRULY. I have asked myself that many times. I cannot give an answer. Unless it was the fact that I knew he was on the second floor, I had seen him 10 or 15 minutes, or whatever it was, before that. That might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because I was looking over there and he was the only one I missed at that time that I could think of. Subconsciously it might have been because I saw him on the second floor and I knew he was in the building. Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz. Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly. While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was. Mr. BALL. About that time? Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don't recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there. Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address? Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock. Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so. Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate? Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately. Mr. BALL. Immediately? Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time. Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin? Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin. Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes. Mr. BALL. Not over that? Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this." Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been. Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there? Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that. Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there? Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers. Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you? Mr. TRULY. That's right. Mr. HILL. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them. So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of us to go to the top floor and work down. We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to seven and shook it down. At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed officer up there. Mr. HILL:…. …When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator. I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route. Roger Craig’s “When they Kill a President” Luke Mooney and I reached the southeast corner at the same time. We immediately found three rifle cartridges laying in such a way that they looked as though they had been carefully and deliberately placed there--in plain sight on the floor to the right of the southeast corner window. Mooney and I examined the cartridges very carefully and remarked how close together they were. The three of them were no more than one inch apart and all were facing in the same direction, a feat very difficult to achieve with a bolt action rifle--or any rifle for that matter. One cartridge drew our particular attention. It was crimped on the end which would have held the slug. It had not been stepped on but merely crimped over on one small portion of the rim. The rest of that end was perfectly round. ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department. Date: November 23 1963 ….The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signaled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webstr, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing. {where is Hill all this time??} From Connie Kritzberg's Secrets from the Sixth Floor Window, pp. 39-46 I [followed] the search team that was on its way to the rear elevator, to start the floor by floor search. We searched every floor, all the way to the roof. The gunman could have still been in the building. Finding nothing, they started back down. After approximately 18 minutes, they were joined by Captain Fritz, who had first gone to Parkland Hospital. {the gunman could still have been in the building yet they allow “citizens” to go back to work and even ride in the elevator with the officers!!} http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...ker_Ex_5323.pdf page 461 After my first arrival at the Texas School Book Depository Building from Parkland Hospital, Captain Fritz of the DPD, Homicide Division arrived and he xxxx went on up into the Texas School Book repository Building, leaving a pair of his officers down stairs where they opened up their automobile and brought out rifles to assist them in securing the building. Shortly thereafter Captain Fritz came to my office…. Sims and Boyd say Decker went with them (and Fritz) in the same car…?!? http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1538-002.gif Curry tells Fritz to get to the TSBD…. “Sheriff Decker went with us” {first 3 lines} http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/fritz2.htm Fritz affidavit Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of building, brought the three empty hulls to my office. {kind of strange to add the line about showing where they fell – to differentiate taking pictures of the hulls after he threw them back on the floor?} Not to mention all the discussion and affidavits putting the shells on the 5th and even the 3rd floors along with quite a lot of activity on the 4th floor (where Sawyer rund up, lloks around for a minute and comes back down...). Interesting discussion DJ

I second that Bernice thank you to Mr. Nelson for a refreshing look at how the man lived amidst so much about how he didn't. Now I know they're not rare yet the ones of Dulles and JFK walking in from the helicopter at Allen's ribboning ceremony are eerie. DJ

Couple of thoughts Was there water/cleanser in the bucket or was it to scoop up "evidence" and be off with it? If anything fell out of JFK's back it could be in that limo as well and what easier cover than a bucket did the bucket remain behind? and the other is a question that I will work on researching later... Was it Dillion or thru Dillion who handed down the promotions and penalties.. who told Boring what was to be done and had Behn pay for it? If not Dillion than who ? DJ and oh yes... Blaine's book... isn't it about time for the other side to push back after IARRB? Been reading ALOT of Vince's work... Horne and Vince - what how why when and where. Boring is Interesting!!