David Josephs

Between the half dozen or so people who claim to have "tracked down the rifle" this one appears even farther outside the box than Holmes...

Armstrong felt if Curry said it, then it has a high probably of being true... yet it may have been a way to hide the origins from where this info actually came...

Curry also only mentions this as "called in a tip" from the minister.... "that led to the mail order rifle tie-in"

This minister seems to have identified KLEIN SPORTING GOODS as the next line reads... "Fed agents contacted the Chicago dealer...."

I wonder why Curry specifically calls out South Carolina as well... I mean who cares where he's from....

51 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Have I missed something?

If Hunt was Acting Anything he’d have signed off on the Oct cables about Oswald... not Willard Curtis....  IOW the evidence from 1963 should be similar to 1960 in proving him there... I don’t see that it does nor does any of the newly found docs on MX suggest anyone saw home there....

Didnt Anne Goodpasture talk of turning the daily intel haul over to Win by mid morning every day for evaluation?

Thanks for the crypto on Hunt Bill.. I was unaware of that one too.

we need to remember that between the mafia, cia and dpd... no one told a 100% truth... 

in fact, my feel was 80/20 the other way to maintain confusion or just the fact that leopards cannot change their spots... 

Hunt as station chief puts him above Phillips...  I don’t see that making much sense.

Is there any item of evidence with Hunt or an alias signed off FROM MX CIA?

I just read that the source was Ted Szulc in his book Compulsive Spy.  

Q: If Hunt was the Acting Chief from August thru Nov, why do the Sept reports from LIENVOY not mention the Sept 27 and 28 Oswald calls as objects of interest?  Based on these contemporaneous reports, those calls did not happen.  Would Hunt and or Phillips forget such a simple detail?

If I haven’t sufficiently shown that Oswald was not in MX at this time, what have I missed?  Hunt was as good a xxxx/agent as there was... 

On Oct 8 “Willard Curtis... aka Scott” signs the LIENVOY SUMMARY REPORT and again on Oct 16 he writes to Amb Mann a memo about Oswald and Kostikov

There are CIA memos about Phillips aka Choaden coming to be Cuban desk Chief on Oct 7th..  so no secret there.   

We have the Hunt personnel file page 104-10120-10356 which shows from Jul 62 thru Aug 64 he was:

Ops Off 0136.01  Grade 15; SO: D DDP/DODS/Facilities Br/Ch,R&PSeo  at Hq

1 minute ago, Mark Lawson said:

Jim Garrison, October 1967: "... [A] member of [the JFK assassination] group is an individual who deliberately impersonated Lee Oswald before the assassination in order to incriminate him: we believe we know his identity...."

From: http://www.maebrussell.com/Garrison/Garrison Playboy Intvw 1.html

I'm pretty sure he was talking about Masen in this context Mark....

A number of authority figures including Ellsworth I believe had their eyes on Masen for that role.

We also have the story of the OTHER Oswald on a flight to Germany at the same time our Oswald is on a ship to France....

At this point I think the existence of doubles for Oswald is established....  as Jim eludes though... was it just Lee or a handful of men working together..

Personally - I think Lee had help

No problem... and thanks, never heard about the SC minister....

Left a message with Armstrong as well...  we'll track it down.

Thanks buddy.. I'll check it out...

Something to reconsider until I can upload photos again...

VAGANOV seemed to be up to no good and as it is told, was quite frantic a bit after 12:30 when he arrived there...

His WIFE ANNE tells us he is interviewed around 4pm at his apartment by 2 FBI agents....
She says he has a rifle with scope and a .38 revolver... and he is leaving for PA with these items to dispose of them.

ANNE VAGANOV gives (FBI SA?) Probation Officer LARRY HAUKE of Conroe TX (where IGOR picks his wife up on Nov 27) these items taken from his coat on Nov 22:

1. King of Spades playing card torn in half with staple holes at the top
2. 3x3 piece of paper with:
   EL 6-6111
   E. STRAZDS
   353-1539
   ARVIDS
   JZAKE
3. Long distance call receipts from Holiday Inn Hapeville GA

btw - there is a 12 6 page copied 2x - notebook on VAGANOV at the Baylor Archive  http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-arm/id/23343 

Nat A. Pinkston Obituary

Pinkston, Nat A. Nat A. Pinkston, born in Dallas, Tx, Nov. 26, 1915, passed away September 4, 2011. He was preceded by his wife Matty, and survived by sons Scott and Bob and numerous grand and great grand children. Nat received his Bachelor of Laws from SMU in 1939 and a BA from North Texas Agricultural College (UT Arlington). He was a graduate of Oak Cliff (Adamson) High School. He worked as an attorney in Dallas for a period before joining the FBI. He was a Special Agent of the FBI 28 years, retiring in 1967, a member of the Masonic Lodge Scottish Rite Shrine, the Texas Police Association, the FBI National Academy Association, the Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, and a member of the Happy Warriors, the world's only geriatric Air Force. He was listed in the International Association of Auto Theft Investigators since 1961. Nat appeared on the History Channel "Infamous Guns" program, interviewed about how he identified the Oswald rifle. He was a contributor to the School Book Depositary Museum of JFK assassination historical artifacts. His name-sake, Nat Pinkston, founded Pinkston, Texas, outside of Corsicana in the late 1800s. The site is currently a ghost town. A Memorial service will be held at 11AM at the Good Shepherd Episcopal Church in Cedar Hill, Saturday, 17th, 915 Old Straus Road @ FM 1382

He said in a 2007 interview:

Well, I had an informant who was a pawn broker and a licensed gun dealer... he said, "...they were sold in Dallas by Titche-Goettinger Company." 
So I went to them and they said, "We have no record...but if we didn't sell it, it almost had to come from Klein Sporting goods Store in Chicago...

They had closed for the day so one of the AGENTS there went pout, picked up the manager, ... and in 15 minutes they had a record that this ... particular rifle had been sold by KLEIN....""

In another thread just recently I showed how the FBI nor KLEIN could have known about that rifle before Sunday and their re-evaluation of the FELDSOTT evidence.  Up to that point, the records showed  that N2766 was shipped to KLEIN in JUNE 1962 as FELDSOTT had said, except the serial number was N instead of C.

In essence, N2766 was not in any of the contemporaneous records of the KLEIN/CRESCENT relationship.  

So they were created.  FBI SA DOLAN takes the microfilm and returns a copy to KLEIN, 2 weeks later.

=======================

Now, who the heck is this "minister in South Carolina called in a tip that led to the mail order rifle tie-in"  ???

FWIW - Wade and Alexander were TEXAN loyalists first, FBI second, IMHO...  they also helped to throw the FBI under the bus that night... for which Hoover had his men extract a recant...

I'm still trying to find the bit about the MINISTER...  all I have so far is:  this from the 23rd...

Do you have a link to the houston article?

A Nov 1963 Field and Stream ad was submitted by Harry Holmes... Given the price is as stated and not $12.88 as shown in the actual ad used...

Holmes and Curry seemed to be feeding info out to the papers....  seems CURRY was a bit miffed about the FBI not telling him about Oswald as he told REVILL

I also found the same article on 11/24 in the NY TIMES... and in LINCOLN ...  

Seems it was an UPI story...   Wonder who gave them the positive info on the parrafin tests...  

Think it was all Curry and Fritz?

BTW - from that link you gave me I found this huge list of JFK related everything links and references

https://dallaslibrary2.org/dallashistory/archives/KennedyAssassinationCollectionGuide.pdf 

Too bad there is no link to these records....

I thought I had a map showing who was where in OAK CLIFF...  but I simply cannot put my hands on it and nothing is coming up in my searches...

I do have the personnel lists though... was Oak Cliff "Northeast" or "Northwest" substation and then there are 3 platoon for round the clock coverage...

Tippit was SOUTHWEST area... so Oak Cliff would be NORTHWEST ??

I checked BATCHELOR #5002 which are the personnel lists...

There is no WENTZEL on the list at all... 

Thoughts?

On 6/25/2012 at 12:03 PM, Malcolm Ward said:

Re Tidy Laundromat.

I believe the Penningtons saw Oswald at the Tidy Lady Laundromat

in the 12:50's before one o'clock. Most people will only accept a one

Oswald involvment and will forced to choose between the modes of potential

transporation. It fits well with me with two Oswalds, in all the modes of

transportation, with one setting the other one up...then, and the days and

weeks prior which are so well documented.

Source:

http://groups.google...a0abee?lnk=raot

The Tidy Lady Laundromat was located on Davis Street as well.

Source:

http://www.jfkassass...p?topic=5830.24

The light-colored Rambler station wagon that was seen with someone who was practically a double for Lee Harvey Oswald passed under the triple-underpass at 12:40 P.M.

A few blocks beyond that overpass is the Commerce Street Viaduct, leading directly into Oak Cliff. It is practically certain that after the Rambler with an unknown driver and a “Oswald impostor” left the Depository it crossed the viaduct, and after turning left on Sylvan Street drove 12 blocks further going south on Davis St. Three blocks away was the Tidy Lady Launderette. The drive from the Texas School Book Depository, would have taken 7 or 8 minutes. It is at the launderette where the car stopped. It would have been within a minute or so of 12:47 P.M.

The Tidy Lady (1227 Davis) was at the corner of Davis St and North Clinton St. There were only two people in the laundromat, at that time John Wesley and Oda Pennington. The car with the two fugitives parked on the east side of North Clinton St., by the side door of the laundromat. The young man who exited the car passed the laundromat and then turned around and entered, making a beeline towards the payphone. A brief pause and the Pennington’s heard the caller speaking in Spanish, in the FBI report, the Pennington’s felt that the man acted as if he was in trouble, under the circumstances, the Pennington’s were no doubt, accurate in their were perception. What happened to the driver is not certain but he may have left the scene as soon as he parked the car, which is what the Oswald impostor did as soon as he finished his call. He was last seen walking South on North Clinton St.

The car had been abandoned. When the couple were shown a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald, they said he “appeared” to be the same person.

Just as compelling is how close the laudromat was to Jefferson Street, the location of the Texas Theater, and on the other side of Jefferson St. in the distance was the apartment of Jack Ruby. The Tidy Lady Lauderette on Clinton Street was only five blocks south away from Jefferson Street.

paraphrased from pages 831-832 Harvey and Lee - John Armstrong

So if you are trying to ascertain if another person was "in play" on Jefferson Street besides Lee Oswald, this scenario definitely seems pertinent. End of account. Yes....End of story? Definitely not.

There was also a Clarence Otis Pennington in W. Virginia who was interviewed by the FBI, at this point it is not known whether the individual Oda Pennington was related to Clarence Pennington. However there is a very sophisticated genealogy website and Family organization named Pennington Research Association, that almost without question makes mention of an C.O. Pennigton and “his wife Ida!”......If you surmised that the Pennington’s are interesting you would be right....

Source:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3128&st=150

Is there a connection here that I am assuming or am I circling it?

West Davis Street....

At the same time Tippit is sent to Oak Cliff, Call # 87 - Patrolman R. C. NELSON - is also sent to Oak Cliff

So here we are with one of the DPD men assigned to Oak Cliff with Tippit, yet within 10 mins of his shooting, NELSON is back at the TSBD...  ???
When he is ordered to 4340 W Davis  (corner of W Davis and Cockrell Hill Rd.) and just under 3 miles WEST of the TIDY LADY

Since the TIDY LADY sighting is put prior to 1pm, and EL CHICO is around 2pm is it possible that this white wagon (Rambler?) and the FALCON are connected?

From JFK and the Unspeakable – Why He Died and Why It Matters by James Douglas

      This is about 2:pm while Lee Oswald sits in the Dallas lock up
Convinced of his duty, T. F. White took Wise into EI Chico’s parking lot and walked him step by step through his “full face” encounter with Oswald. Wise realized the car had been parked at the center of Oswald’s activity in Oak Cliff that afternoon: one block from where Oswald got out of the taxi, six blocks south of his rooming house, eight blocks north of his arrest at the Texas Theater, and only five blocks from Tippit’s murder on a route in between.

Taking notes on his luncheon invitation, Wise said, “I just wish you had gotten the license number.”

“This is it,” he said.

FBI agent Charles T. Brown, Jr., reported from an interview with Milton Love, Dallas County Tax Office: “1963 Texas License Plate PP 4537 was issued for a 1957 Plymouth automobile in possession of Carl Amos Mather, 4309 Colgate Street, Garland, Texas.”
 

Not exactly sure what the significance of 4340 W Davis is yet....  or whether this even relates to Tippit/JFK...  I simply find it odd that 87-NELSON disobeys orders, returns to the vicinity of the TSBD and then is sent on a seemingly wild goose chase many miles from where the activities occurred... While the EL CHICO was a known meeting place for Cuban groups and only blocks from all the activity...  the TIDY LADY is only just around the corner from where IGOR VAGANOV and girlfriend were shacked up that day...  at 815 Sunset.

VAGANOV looked a lot like OSWALD - enough so that driving by in a car he could easily be mistaken for him....

*If the car LEFT THE STATION I'm at a loss for why DISPATCH would ask him to see if he can find the car....  HOW WOULD HE DO THAT???

..... But the info changes a little just 8 mins later...  If we remember, Mr. T F WHITE told us that he saw an OSWALD LOOK-ALIKE in a RED FORD FALCON at the El Chico with license plates PP4537 vs the PE3435 ... 5317 Goodman is only 2 miles from this gas station...

My interest is whether the description of this car and license was used in place of the car WHITE saw... at 2pm back at the CHICO...   Abandoning a car makes sense if it was stolen... too bad we don't have a license plate from the witnesses given the car was just sitting there...

They do make 4 door Ford Falcons...  yet with the direct connection to CARL MATHER of COLLINS RADIO.... 

From JFK & the Unspeakable:
FBI agent Charles T. Brown, Jr., reported from an interview with Milton Love, Dallas County Tax Office: “1963 Texas License Plate PP 4537 was issued for a 1957 Plymouth automobile in possession of Carl Amos Mather, 4309 Colgate Street, Garland, Texas.”

Agent Brown then drove to that address. He reported that the 1957 Plymouth bearing license plate PP 4537 was parked in the driveway of Mather’s home in Garland, a suburb of Dallas. Thus arose the question of how a license plate for Carl Amos Mather’s Plymouth came to be seen on the Falcon in EI Chico’s parking lot, with a man in it who looked like Oswald.

The FBI had also discovered that Carl Amos Mather did high-security communications work for Collins Radio, a major contractor with the Central Intelligence Agency. Three weeks before Kennedy’s assassination, Collins Radio had been identified on the front page of the New York Times as having just deployed a CIA raider ship on an espionage and sabotage mission against Cuba.

Mr. SCOGGINS. Right near. They had a stop sign there and someone had had a wreck previously, I don't know, the sign was down. It was laying there, it had been bent over. 

If we can trust this....  I should have looked here first...

Thanks Steve...

I'd imagine there would have been a DPD report from the patrolman who would normally work that area... right?

and does that stain on the sidewalk where the shooter passed by have anything to do with it...???

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184765/m1/1/zoom/?resolution=1.5&lat=1512&lon=750

If I was a betting man, I'd say Lee, Wilson, Masen and Vaganov cover Dallas, Santa Ana/El Toro, New Orleans and the training camps in Florida...

and would be "involved enough" to keep quiet...  

I truly think we forget how PRIVATE things were unless the FBI wanted to know.. and if that was the case I'd have to assume that ALL the intel agencies would be interested...

As for "loose ends", the threat of the military kept scores quiet for decades... it was the civilian witnesses who were the "loose ends" like Yates, Bolden, and the scores of people accidently suicided or mysteriously killed in oh so innocent ways...

(BTW - do you know hpow to use Google Drive links here?  I paste the "link" address yet the image does not appear????)

What are your thoughts on this?  Accurate?

Alternatively, the question may be, “how many of these men.”.. not which of them...

if indeed you implied only one.

Edit, and thx for not including Mexico City... dj

9 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It strikes me as quite a coincidence that Tippit's killer apparently looked like Oswald, although he really couldn't have been the fellow already in the Texas Theatre.  What luck, eh?

I like your satirical use of "coincidence" given the number of people who bore a sticking resemblance to little Harvey...

Also, let's remember that without the digital world as it is you couldn't compare these images ad nausea...   If I fleetingly saw Wilson or Vaganov or Wayne shoot someone and then see Oswald on that oh-so-sharp-and-clear 1960's TV, given the news and accusations I'd say it was Oswald too...

you as well?

8 minutes ago, Rick McTague said:

David,

Maybe a little OT, but why would the evidence from SA Drain only contain (2) 6.5 cartridge cases from TSBD, when there were supposedly (3)?  Any ideas?  If there were only (2), that means only (2) shots unless I'm missing something here.  Plus, I recall that one of the cases had a dent in it that made it impossible for it to have been fired.  I wonder why that wasn't called out.

Thanks

That's a great question Rick and as usual has a long and complicated answer....  here are the official responses with a bit extra thrown in for effect....

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Lt. J. C. Day, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

When testifying before the President's Commission, I stated I did not remember who returned the two spent 6.5 hulls and envelope to my possession on the night of November 22, 1963. Since returning to Dallas Detective C. N. Dhority has called my attention to the fact he brought the three hulls in the envelope to me and asked me to check them again for fingerprints even though I had checked them when they were picked up on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository about 1:20 p.m. November 22, 1963 by Detective R. M. Sims and myself and placed in a manila envelope. Since talking to Dhority I remember now that he was the one who returned the shells to me about 10:00 p.m. and stated that his office wanted to retain one. He left me two shells and the envelope that Detective Sims and I had previously marked. It was then that I scratched my name on the two shells that were released at 11:45 p.m. Agent Vince Drain along with the rifle and other evidence.

Signed this 7th day of May 1964.
(S) J. C. Day,
J. C. DAY

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Detective C. N. Dhority, Dallas Police Department, who after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

The night of November 22, 1963 Captain J. W. Fritz gave me three 6.5 rifle hulls and told me to give them to Lt. J. C. Day in the Crime Lab. Captain J. W. Fritz told me to have Lt. Day to dust them for prints and return one of the 6.5 hulls to him. I took these three 6.5 rifle hulls to Lt. Day and gave them to him in an envelope which had been previously marked by Det. R. M. Sims. Lt. Day dusted the shells for prints and gave me one back. I returned this 6.5 shell back to Captain J. W. Fritz.

Signed this 12th day of May 1964. 
(S) C.N. Dhority, 
C. N. Dhority.

Before me, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared J. W. Fritz, Dallas Police Department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: I wish to supplement the evidence given by me on Wednesday, April 20, 1964, before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, as follows:

The Spent Rifle Hulls

Three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Texas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. When the officers called me to this window, I asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until Lt. Day of the Dallas Police Department could make pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected from the rifle. After the pictures were made, Detective R. M. Sims of the Homicide Bureau, who was assisting in the search of building, brought the three empty hulls to my office. These were delivered to me in my office at the police headquarters. I kept the hulls in an envelope in my possession and later turned them over to C. N. Dhority of ,the Homicide Bureau and instructed him to take them to Lt. Day of the Identification Bureau. I told Detective Dhority that after these hulls were checked for prints to leave two of them to be delivered to the FBI and to bring one of them to my office to be used for comparison tests here in the office, as we were trying to find where the cartridges had been bought. When Detective Dhority returned from the Identification Bureau, he returned the one empty hull which I kept in my possession. Several days later, I believe on the night of November 27, Vince Drain of the FBI called me at home about one o'clock in the .morning and said that the Commission wanted the other empty hull and a notebook that belonged to Oswald. I came to the office and delivered these things to the FBI. We have Mr. James P. Hosty's receipt for these items in our report.

As early as the photos the FBI took of those two empty hulls and one live one there was confusion about the 3rd apparently missing hull.

Lt Day tries to fill in the gaps with this affidavit

and then finally we have yet another statement from DAY

Steve... Amazing little Rabbit Hole we got here...no?

WESTBROOK is so FOS it's hard to see thru it all...  I posted that since it conflicts directly with other evidence that bypasses BAKER entirely.

===

I've been looking into the "K" v "Q" FBI evidence references in which FRASIER lied his butt off   https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/FrazierSpeaks/FrazierSpeaks.htm

The bottom line is that former FBI SA Robert A. Frazier offered up three differing, unreasonable, implausible “stories” for why the Limo Search evidence went into limbo for at least 3 hours on 11/23/63. It is my firm belief that Frazier knows exactly why the Limo Search evidence went into its holding pattern. The question, What really happened between 2:00 and 7:30 AM? remains unanswered.

I found a presentation about the FBI's "bullet lead" fiasco which contained a very interesting slide:  http://www.ams.jhu.edu/~seminar/seminar/20071011spiegelmanslides.ppt

34 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Mr. BELIN - When you put these two shells (DJ emphasis) that you found in this cigarette package, what did you do with them?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I gave them to an officer.

I've always felt that the TIPPIT evidence was manufactured from police issue items. the markings on the bullets casings, the live ammo taken from him, and even the pistol itself...  Now, we are also aware that BARNES says POE gave him the shells....  what we probably don't remember in the course of things was where did these two go AFTER the Tippit scene... one or both of these men having some of the shells with them...

Mr. BALL. Were you at the Texas Theatre? 
Mr. POE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. Did you see him apprehended? 
Mr. POE. No, sir; I didn't. 
Mr. BALL. You were out? 
Mr. POE. At the back. 
Mr. BALL. At the back? 
Mr. POE. Yes, sir. 
Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Poe. 

Not gonna ask HIM any more questions….  And what about the other guy with the SHELLS?  Sure does seem like a lot of opportune time to bring all the Tippit evidence together... just look carefully at those who were at the TSBD, the Tippit scene and the Theater and wind up in WESTBROOK'S office where the Tippit evidence was "stored" - while HILL was holding this evidence before supposedly giving it to TL BAKER.

Mr. BELIN. Did you make any pictures of the Texas Theatre? 
Mr. BARNES. I did. 

Mr. BELIN. When did you do those? 
Mr. BARNES. I did that the afternoon of November 22, as soon as I finished with the Tippit car pictures. 

On April 7th we hear from BARNES:
Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls that was turned over to me. 
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings? 
Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not sure about that. 

Mr. BELIN. Let me backtrack a minute. You may have misunderstood my question. When you finished up at East 10th and Patton Streets, you took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints. Did you try to do anything else at East 10th and Patton? 
Mr. BARNES. No. 
Mr. BELIN. Then where did you go from East 10th and Patton? 
Mr. BARNES. The Texas Theatre. 
Mr. BELIN. Before you got to the Texas Theatre, did you stop at the spot where you say this jacket was found? 
Mr. BARNES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you take a picture there? 
Mr. BARNES. Yes. 
Mr. BELIN. All right, did you take any other pictures between East 10th and Patton and the Texas Theatre? 
Mr. BARNES. I took two photos of the place where the jacket was found. 

Mr. BELIN. How many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection, did you identify out there? 
Mr. BARNES. I believe that the patrolman gave me two, and Captain Doughty received the third. 

And now the clincher... 

Mr. BELIN. What instrument did you use to place this mark? 
Mr. BARNES. I used a diamond point pen. 
Mr. BELIN. You put it on Q-74 and Q-75?

Q74 and Q77 ???

J.M.P.?

Mr. POE. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it. 
Mr. BALL. Did you make a mark? 
Mr. POE. I can't swear to it; no, sir. (April 7th 1964 compared to above in June/July)
Mr. BALL. But there is a mark on two of these? 
Mr. POE. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I

I can't seem to find the exhibit with the complete list of "Q" items... but I'm pretty sure they are not interchangeable..

Poe claims to have marked them BEFORE giving them to BARNES...  here are the marks...

On April 8th we hear from HILL:
Mr. BELIN. You went back to 400 East 10th Street? 
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun

On April 9th we hear from POE:
Mr. BALL. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given to you? 
Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package. 
Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package? 
Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges. 

This is part of WCD345 the FBI unofficial list of evidence... Interesting how someone notes that the 2 other shells were found "down the street" and not "handed to DPD in cigarette wrapper by Domingo" (they name the Davis')   one still has to wonder what HILL was thinking between the THREE hulls and the AUTOMATIC comment...

33 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

No one seems able to explain why the two witnesses closest to the Tippit shooting (Tatum and Benevides) thought the killer, wearing a light jacket over a white t-shirt, looked like the Oswald in the Texas Theatre, who was wearing a brown shirt.  If we don’t believe the brown-shirted Oswald killed Tippit, is it just an amazing coincidence that Tippit’s killer bore a striking resemblance to “LHO?”

Why would anyone assassinate a cop in broad daylight in front of numerous witnesses for no apparent reason whatsoever?

Jim...  I'm a bit confused by your post...  Benavides said he had on a DARK shirt under the Jacket... and he was not asked to ID the man and yes, the description he gives - with the detail about the hair - suggests it was not the 5'8" 135lb Oswald.

Mr. BENAVIDES - You are about 5' 10"? 
Mr. BELIN - I am between 5' 10" and 5' 11". Closer to 5' 11", I believe. 
Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what kind of shirt he had on? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - It was dark in color, but I don't remember exactly what color. 

Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't. 

Mr. BELIN - Ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and identified him? 
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes; I don't know if Ted told me, but somebody told me.

===

Tatum on the other hand does not mention anything other than a zippered jacket http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tatum.htm
so I am again a bit confused by your statement...  Do you have more from Tatum that we haven't seen yet?

Mr. Jack Tatum was not interviewed until the HSCA 15 years later.  He claims to have seen these things from Denver & 10th From his affidavit:
He evidently makes the left turn (despite not saying so) and drives up to and right past the murder scene.

"I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car."

"he next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton)."

"saw this young white man standing near the front of the squad car. Next. this man with a gun in his hand ran toward the back of the squad car, but instead of running away he stepped into the street and shot the police officer who was lying in the street."

So, given the description of how Tippit was found (as well as covered by a Royal blue coat that simply vanishes)... I wonder how the killer shoots Tippit in the right temple with a bullet moving from front to back coming to rest at the top rear of the skull?  (Eerily similar to JFK's wound)  he's on his stomach...  and Tatum remains to only person to mention this 4th shot with so much description...

Mr. BELIN - How many shots did you hear all told?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I heard three shots.

Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast.
Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.

ELBERT AUSTIN, 8317 Fourth Avenue, Dallas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was working on a construction job at the intersection of Tenth and Denver Street, Dallas, Texas. He advised he was a brick mason's helper and was assisting in the construction of an apartment house. Me stated sometime after 1:00 PM he was on a scaffold in front of the aforementioned apartment house when he heard approximately two or three shots

JIMMY EARL BURT, General Delivery stated that on November 22, 1963 he was living at 505 E. 10th Street, Dallas, Texas which is the residence of his father—in—law, DAVID SHAEFER. He and a friend WILLIAM SMITH were sitting in his brother, BILLY BURT's house located at the corner of 9th and Denver Streets, Dallas. It was some time after lunch when they heard two gunshots. He and SMITH immediately ran from the house toward his car, a 1952 two—tone blue Ford which was parked facing south on Denver Street. As they ran from the house they heard four more shots making a total of six.

Mr. BALL. What did you hear at that time?
Mr. CALLAWAY. I heard what sounded to me like five pistol shots.
Mr. BALL. Five pistol shots?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Five shots, yes, sir.

FRANK CIMINO, 403 East Tenth Street, Apartment 7, Dallas, Texas, advised that on November 22, 1963, he was residing in an apartment at 405 East Tenth Street. He Stated that at around 1 p.m. he was at his apartment listening to the radio. He heard four loud noises which sounded like shots and then he heard a women scream

The officer was lying on his side with his head in front of the left front head light of his car. His gun was out of the holster and lying by his side

Mr. DULLES. Plural? How many did you hear?
Mrs. DAVIS. Just two, they were pretty close together. (both sisters say the same thing)

Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. GUINYARD. I heard three.

FRANCIS KINNETH, 1425 Caidwell, Dallas, Texas, advised he was employed on a construction job at the intersection of Denver and Tenth Street, Dallas, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963. He advised at approximately 1:00 PM he had heard approximately two or three shots

L. J. LEWIS, 7616 Hums, Pleasant Grove, Texas, advised he is presently self-employed as a wholesale car dealer. LEWIS advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was on the used car lot of Johnny Reynolds Used Cars together with HAROLD RUSSELL and PAT PATTERSON, during which time they heard approximately three or four gun shots coming from the vicinity of Tenth and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas

Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?
Mr.REYNOLDS. I really have no idea, to be honest with you. I would say four or five or six. I just would have no idea.

1 hour ago, John Kowalski said:

David:

You wrote an essay about the rifle. Would like to read it, can you tell me where I can find it?

http://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index

i have a few... thx for checking them out John...

dj

3 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

So the cop car stops, toots it's horn and takes off.  Ozzie hears the signal, walks out to the bus stop, scopes out the area to see if anyone is watching,  long enough that his land lady sees him there, walks a half block or block and gets in the cop car.  At the Texas Theater he buys a ticket, some popcorn about the time Tippit is killed, then goes up to the balcony.  Sound logical?

Sounds right to me Ron...

 Westbrook n Croy?

Unknowns?  E Roberts was pretty blind... lol