John Dolva

Let them see what they have done Jackie and Mamies response to losing their loved ones.

I haven't done research on white russians in the Kennedy context. In this context though I can suggest a possible avenue for research (I'm wandering down this one and will let you know anything I come across) The nazi's spent quite a lot of effort in trying to set up units made up of members from the allied pow's. They had some success with the British Freicorps. The members of it were often ones who expressed an insistence on fighting the russians and were accepted on their expressed anti communist stance. Perhaps ties to white russians can be found here?

United States District Court E. D. Louisiana, New Orleans Division. March 28, 1962 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Action against the administrators of Tulane University of Louisiana and others wherein the plaintiffs filed a motion for summary judgment. The District Court, J. Skelly Wright, J., held, inter alia, that Tulane University cannot discriminate in admissions on basis of race on theory that it is a private institution and hence immune from command of Fourteenth Amendment where complete history of University indicates that it is now, as it always was, a public institution, but even if University had been transformed into a private institution as a matter of local law, the present involvement of state is sufficient to subject University to constitutional restraints on governmental action. Motion granted. Final Outcome The scorn and ostracism faced by Judge Wright and his family from members of the uptown community who resented his rulings on desegregation had made his family's life unbearable [1]. On February 2, 1962, President John F. Kennedy nominated Wright to a seat on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, and simultaneously nominated attorney Frank Burton Ellis, a former Louisiana state senator more tolerant of segregation, to the seat occupied by Wright on the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Louisiana. The newly-appointed Judge Frank Ellis received his commission on April 12, 1962, and Judge Skelly Wright's service in his native New Orleans ended on April 15, 1962 [2]. Directly upon Wright's departure, on April 19, 1962, Tulane filed a motion requesting that Judge Ellis vacate Judge Wright's judgment and retry the case [3]. This was an extraordinary tactic that bypassed the normal procedure of appealing to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. The novice judge granted Tulane's request and by that December had ruled in Tulane's favor, overturning Wright's decision on every major issue. The unusual circumstances of the entire episode lends credence to suspicions of active behind-the-scenes political maneuvering. An excerpt of Judge Ellis's opinion follows. December 5, 1962 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Defendant's position is that the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply to Tulane University because it is a "private individual" under the doctrine of the Civil Rights Cases, 109 U.S. 3, 3 S.Ct. 18, 27 L.Ed. 835, enunciating the proposition that the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply to private individuals. The source of Tulane's present policy is the act of donation of one Paul Tulane, a philanthropist and early benefactor of the University. That act, which prompted the incorporation of the Administrators of the Tulane Educational Fund on May 29, 1882, restricted the use of the funds to "white young persons." A later gift by one Sophie Newcomb included a similar restriction. The necessity of the Administrators' compliance with the terms of Paul Tulane's donation is embraced in its corporate charter as well as the statutory law of the State of Louisiana by Act 43 of 1884, LSA-R.S. Tit. 17, c. 6 note included in the Louisiana Constitution by Art. 269 of 1888. Thus, although the Administrators of the Tulane Educational Fund are on official record as desiring otherwise, the Administrators stand on the position that they are legally bound to restrict admissions to Tulane University to white persons and, moreover, that this restriction is constitutionally permissible because Tulane University of Louisiana is a "private school." - - - - - - JUDGMENT IT IS ORDERED, ADJUDGED AND DECLARED that: a The Administrators of the Tulane Educational Fund is a private eleemosonary corporation engaged in higher education. b The Tulane University of Louisiana is a private activity of the Administrators of the Tulane Educational Fund. c There is insufficient state involvement in the operation of the Tulane University of Louisiana to bring it within the privileges and proscriptions of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, ADJUDGED AND DECREED that judgment be entered in favor of defendants and against plaintiffs. From: Guillory v. Administrators of Tulane University of LA., 212 F.Supp. 674, 676, 687 (1962).

A footnote While trying to fully appreciate the conditions which the Kennedy Presidency I find that as a result of this research I had a somewhat rosy outlook. His assassination wasn't an end of an era. Much more his election was part of a process of change. His election merely offered opportunities to accelerate that change. And as such he then became the target for the reaction to that change. As Tom's emphasis on Tulane reveals, the backers of segregation hava a strong intellectual historical basis. The maneuverings involved in desegregating Tulane University are quite intriguing. A see saw of rulings and counter claims, relying on specific appointments and consequent concessions. It seems reasonable to assume that the highest thinkers in the fight against desegregation and change in the south would also be found to contain elements desirous of removing Kennedy. As such the potential influence over the less educated elements of society who would turn out to be the 'foot soldiers' was undoubtedly there.

Mark, one thing that has struck me particularly is the quality contributions from the people who have contributed to this topic. In one way it is not controversial, it's stark, bleak truth. I can continue (and will for some time) to cut and paste the writings from other authors in my posts. You and the other fine folk that actually live there can do the same:: or even more valuably, tell your OWN story. I got so much from those few words of yours. That you and the other contributors have said as much affirms to me that it's not in vain. Just how much a factor it was jumps out at me by a sentence of yours : "...my elders, upon hearing news of the recovery of the bloated body of a murdered black person from a creek, river, or lake, weighted with chains and concrete blocks, laughingly say: "Ain't that just like a n, to steal more chain than he could swim with?". If it had been just one body that would have been bad enough, but bodies in creeks, rivers and lakes... Enough bodies for an average person to become blunted in the way we are today when we see horror on the TV. In an earler post of mine : "As the intense search for bodies continued, investigators found several corpses of civil rights workers in lonely Mississippi places—but not any of the three everyone was looking for." later in the same article : “it was so difficult to obtain evidence of a crime as it was to determine what took place" and "Locals delighted in sending agents off on wild goose chases or debating agents on issues such as communist influence in the civil rights movement. Sullivan bemoaned the countless hours spent “wheel-spinning” and engaging in “jolly talks with Klansmen.” So, bodies all over the place, but no crimes, just jokes. I suspect that's how the average German got through the 30's and 40's. And we forget so quickly? So human... But as Tom says: "Despite what many think, there are honorable persons, North & South, who would be more than willing to expose those of the South who were responsible for the assassination of JFK. All of us are not immoral lawyers who's descendents have risen in wealth and position on the backs of average working class americans. All of my forefathers fought for the South. And, rest assured I despise those who abuse their wealth; position; and power, irrelevant of race; creed; color; religion; or national origin. (Yankee or Southerner) This is not what we as the human species were destined to do."

With regards to Walker and the othe right wingers he knew, is it possible to find itemised lists of their personal possessions left in their estates? I would be particularly interested in small items like war memorabilia, jewelery?

Because some of the suggested conspirators had ties to Walker I have looked at the types of symbols used by the Nazi's. The Lebenrune described above that is duplicated in the converging streets of Dealey Plaza, when turned upside down is used to denote date of death, or death. The SS Totenkopf units (deaths head) were issued with a ring that combined SS with the Tyr or war rune and the death rune. Now looking at the symbology it is even more chilling. As Kennedy was approaching Dealey Plaza it's as if he was entering a stylized version of this emblem, with his own SS in tow. Note how the right wing branch (elm street) of the upside down Lebenrune takes precedence over the 'lesser' two (main and commerce) Totenkopfring

Tom, I believe you. Perhaps a promise of redemption holds more chance of laying this matter to rest than a threat of execution? What would Kennedy want? Sure, persuing his killers is one way of honoring his memory. Implementing the world he was looking for is another. He responded with principled strength where needed, but he also was on the lookout for peace. Chris, thank you. Here is the article (after some introduction) edited by me in an attempt to shorten and to remove some of the 'colorful' nature of it that to my mind, and apparently to that of a leader of the NAACP who responded at the time with a letter to the editor, serves to mildly justify. Perhaps I'm over reacting but while expository, the article still was pitched at an audience and therefore restrained in a way that didn't entirely reveal the truth. The link to the unedited article is there. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/till/peopleevents/e_lynch.html John David Smith: "Lynching existed along the frontier in all societies and whites employed the device to control "outsiders" throughout the course of southern history. After emancipation, however, lynching and other forms of racial violence provided whites a practical means to control blacks by keeping blacks fearful and perpetually marginalized in southern society. The threat of white violence, in addition to economic and social controls, maintained the controls of slavery in the post-emancipation age." People & Events: Lynching in America For many African Americans growing up in the South in the 19th and 20th centuries, the threat of lynching was commonplace. The popular image of an angry white mob stringing a black man up to a tree is only half the story. Lynching, an act of terror meant to spread fear among blacks, served the broad social purpose of maintaining white supremacy in the economic, social and political spheres. Author Richard Wright, who was born near Natchez in southwest Mississippi, knew of two men who were lynched -- his step-uncle and the brother of a neighborhood friend. In his book Black Boy,Author Richard Wright wrote: "The things that influenced my conduct as a Negro did not have to happen to me directly; I needed but to hear of them to feel their full effects in the deepest layers of my consciousness. Indeed, the white brutality that I had not seen was a more effective control of my behavior than that which I knew." Although the practice of lynching had existed since before slavery, it gained momentum during Reconstruction, when viable black towns sprang up across the South and African Americans began to make political and economic inroads by registering to vote, establishing businesses and running for public office. Many whites -- landowners and poor whites -- felt threatened by this rise in black prominence. Foremost on their minds was a fear of sex between the races. Some whites espoused the idea that black men were sexual predators and wanted integration in order to be with white women. Lynchings were frequently committed with the most flagrant public display. Like executions by guillotine in medieval times, lynchings were often advertised in newspapers and drew large crowds of white families. They were a kind of vigilantism where Southern white men saw themselves as protectors of their way of life and their white women. By the early twentieth century, the writer Mark Twain had a name for it: the United States of Lyncherdom. Lynchings were covered in local newspapers with headlines spelling out the horrific details. Photos of victims, with exultant white observers posed next to them, were taken for distribution in newspapers or on postcards. Body parts, including genitalia, were sometimes distributed to spectators or put on public display. Although rape is often cited as a rationale, statistics now show that only about one-fourth of lynchings from 1880 to 1930 were prompted by an accusation of rape. In fact, most victims of lynching were political activists, labor organizers or black men and women who violated white expectations of black deference, and were deemed "uppity" or "insolent." Though most victims were black men, women were by no means exempt." (I'd say the vile excuse of sexuality is merely an opportunistic appeal to 'lumpen' mentality. For economic control, an excuse that would appeal to or trigger base emotions to justify brutality. This kind of manipulation through fear, greed, and craving is used repeatedly through history by people who wish to manipulate relatively unaware persons to do their bidding. Typified, for example, in the pogroms of Nazi Germany) "Many victims were black businessmen or black men who refused to back down from a fight. Headlines such as the following were not uncommon: "Five White Men Take Negro Into Woods; Kill Him: Had Been Charged with Associating with White Women" went over The Associated Press wires about a lynching in Shreveport, Louisiana. "Negro Is Slain By Texas Posse: Victim's Heart Removed After His Capture By Armed Men" was published in The New York World Telegram on December 8, 1933. "Negro and White Scuffle; Negro Is Jailed, Lynched" was published in the Atlanta Constitution on July 6, 1933. Newspapers even printed that prominent white citizens in local towns attended lynchings, and often published victory pictures -- smiling crowds, many with children in tow -- standing next to the corpse. In the South, an estimated two or three blacks were lynched each week in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In Mississippi alone, 500 blacks were lynched from the 1800s to 1955. Nationwide, the figure climbed to nearly 5,000. According to black journalist and editor Ida B. Wells, who launched a fierce anti-lynching campaign in the 1890s, the lynching of successful black people was a means of subordinating potential black economic competitors. She also argued that consensual sex between black men and white women, while forbidden, was widespread. Thus lynching was also a means of imposing order on white women's sexuality. With lynching as a violent backdrop in the South, Jim Crow as the law of the land, and the poverty of the sharecropper system, blacks had no recourse. This triage of repression ensured blacks would remain impoverished, endangered, and without rights or hope. Whites could accuse at will and rarely was a white punished for a crime committed against a black. Even for those whites who were opposed to lynching, there was not much they could do. If there was an investigation, white citizens closed ranks to protect their own and rarely were mob leaders identified. Violence against blacks would taper off during the second World War and rise again after the passage of the Supreme Court's Brown v. Board of Education decision that nullified the country's separate-but-equal doctrine. Armed with hope, blacks began to register and organize people to vote. Local NAACP chapters began sprouting up in small towns. When Emmett Till was murdered, the head of the NAACP, Roy Wilkins, lambasted Mississippi and called Emmett's murder a lynching. "It would appear from this lynching that the State of Mississippi has decided to maintain white supremacy by murdering children." The brutal slaying of a 14-year-old boy was shocking, and when the killers later confessed to the crime in an article published in Look magazine, African Americans and others who supported civil liberties realized they would have to organize en masse and risk their lives in order to bring change. The Look article (edited) Last September in Sumner, Miss., a petit jury found the youth's admitted abductors not guilty of murder. In November, in GREENWOOD, a grand jury declined to indict them for kidnapping. Of the murder trial, the Memphis Commercial Appeal said: "Evidence necessary for convicting on a murder charge was lacking." .................. On Wednesday evening, August 24, 1955, Roy was in Texas, on a brother's truck. He had carted shrimp from New Orleans to San Antonio, proceeded to Brownsville. Carolyn was alone in the store. But back in the living quarters was her sister-in-law Juanita Milam, 27, with her two small sons and Carolyn's two. The store was kept open till 9 on week nights, 11 on Saturday. .................. About 7:30 pm, eight young Negroes -- seven boys and a girl -- in a '46 Ford had stopped outside. They included sons, grandsons and a nephew of Moses (Preacher) Wright, 64, a 'cropper. They were between 13 and 19 years old. Four were natives of the Delta and others, including the nephew, Emmett (Emmett) Till, were visiting from the Chicago area. Emmett Till was 14 years old: born on July 25, 1941. He was stocky, muscular, weighing about 160, five feet four or five. Preacher later testified: "He looked like a man." (??? photos of Till shows a well built young boy, certainly not a man) Till bought some lollies. And flirted.... THE WOLF-WHISTLE MURDER: A NEGRO "CHILD" OR "BOY" WHISTLED AT HER AND THEY KILLED HIM. The Negroes drove away. By Thursday afternoon, Carolyn Bryant could see the story was getting around. She spent Thursday night at the Milams, where at 4 a.m. (Friday) Roy got back from Texas. Since he had slept little for five nights, he went to bed at the Milams' while Carolyn returned to the store. During Friday afternoon, Roy reached the store, and shortly thereafter a Negro told him what "the talk" was, and told him that the "Chicago boy" was "visitin' Preacher." Carolyn then told Roy what had happened. On Friday night, he couldn't do anything. He and Carolyn were alone, and he had no car. Saturday was collection day, their busy day in the store. About 10:30 Saturday night, J. W. Milam drove by. Roy took him aside. "I want you to come over early in the morning," he said. "I need a little transportation." J. W. drove to another brother's store at Minter City, where he was working. He closed that store about 12:30 a.m., drove home to Glendora. He pumped the pickup -- a half-ton '55 Chevrolet -- full of gas and headed for Money. J. W. Milam is 36: six feet two, 235 pounds. He is slavery's plantation overseer. Today, he rents Negro-driven mechanical cotton pickers to plantation owners. Those who know him say that he can handle Negroes better than anybody in the country. With a ninth-grade education, he was commissioned in battle by the 75th Division. He was an expert platoon leader, expert street fighter, expert in night patrol, expert with the "grease gun," with every device for close range killing. Two hours after Milam got the word -- the instant minute he could close the store -- he was looking for the Chicago Negro. Milam reached Money 2 a.m., Sunday, August 28. The Bryants were asleep; the store was dark but for the all-night light. He rapped at the back door, and when Roy came, he said: "Let's go. Let's make that trip now." Roy dressed, brought a gun: this one was a .45 Colt. They drove to Preacher's house: 2.8 miles east of Money. Roy Bryant pounded on the door.Preacher: "Who's that?". Bryant: "Mr. Bryant from Money, Preacher." Preacher: "All right, sir. Just a minute." Bryant: "Preacher, you got a boy from Chicago here?" Preacher: "Yes sir." Bryant: "I want to talk to him." Preacher: "Yes sir. I'll get him." Preacher led them to a back bedroom where four youths were sleeping in two beds. In one was Emmett Till and Simeon Wright, Preacher's youngest son. Bryant had told Preacher to turn on the lights; Preacher had said they were out of order. So only the flashlight was used. The visit was not a complete surprise. Preacher testified that he had heard of the "trouble," that he "sho' had" talked to his nephew about it. Emmett himself had been afraid; he had wanted to go home the day after the incident. The Negro girl in the party urged that he leave. "They'll kill him," she had warned. But Preacher's wife, Elizabeth Wright, had decided that the danger was being magnified; she had urged Emmett to stay. "I thought they might say something to him, but I didn't think they'd kill a boy," Preacher said. Milam shined the light in Emmett's face, said: "You the n who did the talking?" "Yeah," Emmett replied. Milam: "Don't say, 'Yeah' to me: I'll blow your head off. Get your clothes on." Emmett had been sleeping in his shorts. He pulled on a shirt and trousers, then reached for his socks. "Just the shoes," Milam hurried him. "I don't wear shoes without socks," Emmett said: and he kept the gun-bearers waiting while he put on his socks, then a pair of canvas shoes with thick crepe soles. Preacher and his wife tried two arguments in the boy's behalf. "He didn't know any better" Preacher begged. "He didn't know what he was doing. Don't take him." "I'll pay you gentlemen for the damages," Elizabeth Wright said. "You niggers go back to sleep," Milam replied. They marched him into the yard, forced him to get in the back of the pickup and lie down. They drove toward Money. Elizabeth Wright rushed to the home of a white neighbor, who got up, looked around, but decided he could do nothing. Then, she and Preacher drove to the home of her brother, Crosby Smith, at Sumner; and Crosby Smith, on Sunday morning, went to the sheriff's office at GREENWOOD. The other young Negroes stayed at Preacher's house until daylight, when Wheeler Parker telephoned his mother in Chicago, who in turn notified Emmett's mother. .............. Milam and Bryant crossed the Tallahatchie River and drove west. Their intention was to "just whip him... and scare some sense into him." And for this chore, Milam knew "the scariest place in the Delta." He had come upon it last year hunting wild geese. Over close to Rosedale, the Big River bends around under a bluff. "Brother, she's a 100-foot sheer drop, and she's a 100 feet deep after you hit." Big Milam's idea was to stand him up there on that bluff, "whip" him with the .45, and then shine the light on down there toward that water and make him think you're gonna knock him in. "Brother, if that won't scare the Chicago -------, hell won't." Searching for this bluff, they drove close to 75 miles. Through Shellmound, Schlater, Doddsville, Ruleville, Cleveland to the intersection south of Rosedale. There they turned south on Mississippi No. 1, toward the entrance to Beulah Lake. They tried several dirt and gravel roads, drove along the levee. Finally, they gave up: in the darkness, Big Milam couldn't find his bluff. They drove back to Milam's house at Glendora, and by now it was 5 a.m.. They had been driving nearly three hours, with Milam and Bryant in the cab and Emmett lying in the back. At some point when the truck slowed down, why hadn't Emmett jumped and run? He wasn't tied; nobody was holding him. A partial answer is that those Chevrolet pickups have a wraparound rear window the size of a windshield. Bryant could watch him. But the real answer is the remarkable part of the story. Emmett wouldn't be intimidated as they thought he should be. Milam: "We were never able to scare him. They had just filled him so full of that poison that he was hopeless." Back of Milam's home is a tool house, with two rooms each about 12 feet square. They took him in there and began "whipping" him, first Milam then Bryant smashing him across the head with those .45's. Pistol-whipping: a court-martial offense in the Army... but MP's have been known to do it.... And Milam got information out of German prisoners this way. Milam: "Well, what else could we do? He was hopeless. I'm no bully; I never hurt a n in my life. I like niggers -- in their place -- I know how to work 'em. But I just decided it was time a few people got put on notice. As long as I live and can do anything about it, niggers are gonna stay in their place. Niggers ain't gonna vote where I live. If they did, they'd control the government. They ain't gonna go to school with my kids. And when a n gets close to mentioning sex with a white woman, he's tired o' livin'. I'm likely to kill him. Me and my folks fought for this country, and we got some rights. I stood there in that shed and listened to that n throw that poison at me, and I just made up my mind. 'Chicago boy,' I said, 'I'm tired of 'em sending your kind down here to stir up trouble. Goddam you, I'm going to make an example of you -- just so everybody can know how me and my folks stand.'" They ordered him back in the truck and headed west again. They passed through Doddsville, went into the Progressive Ginning Company. This gin is 3.4 miles east of Boyle: Boyle is two miles south of Cleveland. Milam: "When we got to that gin, it was daylight, and I was worried for the first time. Somebody might see us and accuse us of stealing the fan." ( ahh, a well developed sense of propriety... Bryant and Big Milam forced Emmett to load the fan. Weight: 74 pounds. They drove back to Glendora, then north toward Swan Lake and crossed the "new bridge" over the Tallahatchie. At the east end of this bridge, they turned right, along a dirt road which parallels the river. After about two miles, they crossed the property of L.W. Boyce, passing near his house. About 1.5 miles southeast of the Boyce home is a lonely spot where Big Milam has hunted squirrels. The river bank is steep. The truck stopped 30 yards from the water. Big Milam ordered Emmett to pick up the fan. He staggered under its weight... carried it to the river bank. Milam: "Take off your clothes." Slowly, Emmett pulled off his shoes, his socks. He stood up, unbuttoned his shirt, dropped his pants, his shorts. He stood there naked. It was Sunday morning, a little before 7. They shot him. They barb-wired the gin fan to his neck, rolled him into 20 feet of water. For three hours that morning, there was a fire in Big Milam's back yard: Emmett's crepe soled shoes were hard to burn. Seventy-two hours later -- eight miles downstream -- boys were fishing. They saw feet sticking out of the water. Emmett. The majority -- by no means all, but the majority -- of the white people in Mississippi 1) either approve Big Milam's action or else 2) they don't disapprove enough to risk giving their "enemies" the satisfaction of a conviction. The State of Mississippi delayed filing criminal murder charges against any of the Klansmen involved until January 7, 2005 when they hauled in one old man – a Baptist “preacher” – who had avoided conviction for federal conspiracy charges in 1967. In that trial, a holdout juror said she “could never convict a preacher.” Some letters to the editor of Look... ...To publish this story, of which no one is proud, but which was certainly justified, smacks loudy of circulation hunting. Roy Bryant and J. W. Milam did what had to be done, and their courage in taking the course they did is to be commended. To have followed any other course would have been unrealistic, cowardly and not in the best interest of their family or country. Richard Lauchli Collinsville, Illinois ...Look's story of the Till murder in Mississippi carries the material covering the alleged remarks and acts of the dead boy as "facts"...Who stands behind these "facts"?* Roy Wilkins, Executive Secretary National Association for the Advancement of Colored People

Tom, Yes. .......................................................... Just to take the symbology issue a little further: to elaborate on one aspect of the symbolism and to indicate how it may have been an element of deception. Note : I recognise this thread may belong in 'pure speculation' , but the simplicity of it lends it a certain credibility as per occams razor. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Number Symbol : 336 Traditional Use/Origins : Numbers Hate Group/Extremist Organization : Ku Klux Klan (KKK) Background/History : Thirty-three is 3 times 11. Since the eleventh letter of the alphabet is K, three Ks signify KKK or Ku Klux Klan. The "6" signifies the sixth or current era of the Klan. 33/6 is also used as a greeting by Klan members. ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: I theorise that: Given that in 2005 we are in the 6th era of the Klan, 1. The first was at its founding until 'disbanded' 2. from disbanded till 1915 when "Birth of a Nation" was shown in the White House 3. resurgence in 1915 till 1930 when the leader was convicted of rape and murder. 4. 1930 till the resurgence at the birth of the modern civil right movement. 5. the civil rights era. 6. till today So, the greeting in 1963 would have been 33/5. 5 means 'I have nothing to say' 33 is 3 times 11, 11 being the letter K. 11.22 at 12.30 : 1/2/3/0 : 11/22/33/5 : assassination of Kennedy. Klansmen, keep your mouths shut. Or : Kennedy was killed on the 11th of November at 12.30 by the KKK. Is it possible that this approach can pinpoint the first 'shot' as happening at 12.35? Could that be why it missed? Maybe for the first one it was more important that it happened at 12.35 than that it actually hit Kennedy. Maybe the report of this bullet streiking the road is correct and it struck the road because it was aimed at the road? Also one mustn't forget that this may be just another layer in the 'orchid camouflage' alluded to by Angleton. ie. anyone who chooses to wander down this particular road will find this. While it may actually point to a set of individuals who organised the shooting, they themselves may have been manipulated by another group entirely. These Lumpen elements are well known to be vulnerable to manipulation through their own needs, that often involve base forms of greed, or they may be 'purists', who are on some kind of ideological mission. Groups that were/are into that kind of behind the scene manipulations could be these that Tom are indicating. Infiltration and Control of the vulnerable groupings went on/goes on all the time.

Mark, and under the sword Democles lies the door to the solution, the Gordian knot. Cleave the knot and set repression free and it will evaporate, allowing healing to take place. I'm probably getting a bit esoteric here for those unfamiliar with the nomeculature. A boil is most painful and repulsive prior to bursting, naturally one tends to dread it and perhaps avoid it by ignoring or papering it over with various anaesthetising endeavours. However, in nature as in the affairs of man, allowing the boil to come to the surface and reveal its poison will if studied equanimously and left to its own natural course set the stage for the real healing. I believe that a human like a moth to the light cannot help but gravitate to truth. Painful though that truth may be. Truth, Reconciliation, Redemption History forgotten runs the risk of being repeated. Tom, I believe that a bipartisan approach as outlined by Sykes endeavours will create an atmosphere wherein the evidence and investigations will emerge as something credible. The number of theories and confessions around at the moment are quite amazing. I don't know if anyone has counted but there must have been shooters shoulder to shoulder all over the plaza vying for what really only was at the most two headshots. There seems to be at the moment a set of theories that are zeroing in on the issue from apparently different angles. This is good. I can already see names and organisations being repeated in them. Perhaps a unifying thought might be, from my perspective, a realisation that economics is at the core. The central group involved I think would have quite a sophisticated philosophy, devoid of any symbology, just cold hard facts : how to stay, get, maintain, in power. From there they can safely rely on base emotion of 'lumpen' elements to do 'the dirty work' as explained by Tom Purvis.

An empty city with old buildins scoured by federal agencies? Hmmm..wondering who is monitoring what they find in the old boxes tucked away in the attics? ..........Anyone?

As far as Dealay Plaza goes on the 11/22/63, 12.30 pm, those who haven't considered it before (like myself) might be startled to find some disturbing 'clues' to the identity of the killers. Perhaps not such a crazy idea when one considers the scenario of (as outlined elsewhere): Texas as the place of the last battle (which the REBELS won, and amongst them there are those who have never considered the war over) of the Civil War, Dallas as the heart of Texas, and in Dallas, Dealey Plaza : the heart of Dallas. The question "Why Dealey Plaza?", with this in mind, plus the explanation of the above symbology, plus a realisation of how important these symbols were to send messages, could perhaps be extended to "Why 12.30?"... a conscious regulating of speed? and "Why 11 November?". Insistence on three shots, three bullets neatly in a row : III : II_ I_I _II : KKK? 311 Mamas and the Papas : "I used to live in New York City,everything there was dark and dirty. Outside my window was a steeple with a clock that always said twelve-thirty. Young girls are coming to the canyon, and in the mornings I can see them walking. I can no longer keep my blinds drawn, and I can't keep myself from talking. At first so strange to feel so friendly--- To say good morning and really mean it--- To feel these changes happening in me, But not to notice till I feel it. Young girls are coming to the canyon, and in the mornings I can see them walking. I can no longer keep my blinds drawn, And I can't keep myself from talking. Cloudy waters cast no reflection, images of beauty lie there stagnant. Vibrations bounce in no direction, and lie there shattered into fragments. Young girls are coming to the canyon, (Young girls are in the canyon) And in the mornings I can see them walking. (In the mornings I can see them walking) I can no longer keep my blinds drawn, (Can no longer keep my blinds drawn) And I can't keep myself from talking..." I have a friend in the Blue Mountains who has a clock on the wall of his lounge room that always says 12.30. He never dusts it. Its old, and cob webs glue it to the wall. I think that if the motorcade hadn't reached Dealey Plaza by 12.30 (12.33?) there would have been fireworks set off to mark 12.30 or possibly 12.33. 11/22, 12.33 11 22 33 KKK. To live and work in Dallas in the 40's, 50's, and 60's with the type of organisations around at that time, the similarity of the configuration of Main Street and Dealey Plaza and the Nazi Lebenrune from the 30's would not have gone unnnoticed. Particularly by those who had fought in Europe in the second world war. Similarly, the is the Tyr rune, (arrow) used by Hitlers Sturmabteilung, since then adopted by White Supremacists. Tyr being the Norse god of war and battle. The similarity between the Celtic cross so prominently used by the KKK and other White Supremacy groupings and the sight through a scope is obvious. In the middle of the KKK cross there is also traditionally a graphic of a drop of blood. (an explanation for those unfamiliar with the images : Kennedy was shot around 12.30 in front of the Texas School Book Depository, where on the roof was a large sign showing the time as one approached "the gateway to Dallas', the triple underpass, and on into Dealey Plaza. Dealey plaza was built in the 1930's. This place was the site of the first settlement in Dallas. the first building and later all the important buildings stood here. Disastrous floods that cut Dallas in half led to the construction of what is essentially a series of directional structures and waterways bridged by a sturdy bridge to maintain transport links should floods come again. Entering the Plaza one enters on a set of roads that fan out into Dallas. Leaving Dallas one is funneled down into the underpass. Greeting Kennedy entering Dallas was the Battle Flag at Lovefield airport. Farewelling Kennedy leaving Dallas at Dealey Plaza was the sniper.) or...just another set of coincidences? BTW I suspect that hose who read this lightly, take time to re-read and go to the site mentioned to read about hate symbols. It is a subject taken quite seriously by rational people. The interpretations here are mine, and I have no doubt that others can be made. In a world where toast with pics of virgin mary gets attention, it's difficult to have a serious discussion around such a subject. This is an attempt by me to do so.

Do you really think that another HSCA will solve any mysteries surrounding JFK's murder? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Tom, I certainly recognise your point. But, Yes I do. With a qualification. Just a voluble agitation for it hopefully leading to such will bring the general public up to speed on where the investigation is today. Also it would provide a Forum where the current thinking and evidence can be aired. Also the slow implementation of the release of documents order may get on the agenda and speeded up. Money would be allocated. And yes, another round of obfuscation no doubt initiated. But....

I've named this topic ORION because it touches on a subject where a lot of smoke occurs. In the JFK conspiracy context ORION has connotations of wierdness at best lunacy at worst. A search on the internet brings one quickly to the site that claims a cosmic connection with the orion constallation. To support this an obviously distorted map of Dealey Plaza is used. Enough to turn any rational researcher off. Right? OK having been turned off one now has a ready made reaction should anyone start talking about ORION. Instant dismissal. Perhaps that is the purpose of some of the disinformation. Who would want to be associated or tainted with such stuff? In fact it hides a sinister reality. ORION stands for a traditional term within white supremacy. Our Race Is Our Nation. http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/ORION.asp "Symbol Type : Racist Acronym Extremist Meaning or Representation "Our Race Is Our Nation" is a racist slogan that emphasizes that racial ties are paramount to all else. Within the United States, for example, a white supremacist might use it to suggest that he or she owes allegiance to his or her race, rather than to the United States itself. White supremacists in other countries may use it similarly. In an international context, it can be used to suggest that all white people, whether from Europe or the United States or elsewhere, are one "nation," opposed and superior to all other races. Background/History The slogan "Our Race Is Our Nation" is used by a variety of groups. Christian Identity adherents like it because it is compatible with their belief that white people are descended from the ancient tribes of the Kingdom of Israel. There is even an Identity Ku Klan Klan group, based in Alabama, known as the "Orion Knights of the Ku Klux Klan." It is also used among neo-Nazis and racist skinheads. The Canadian white supremacist group Heritage Front adopted the slogan as its official motto" Other symbology relevant to the assassination is for example the American Flag. When Oswalds mental competence was being assessed, one yardstick used was an evaluation of his attitude towards saluting the flag when he was a boy. To me this is quite peculiar but I understand that in some countries Flags are almost like an identity. Feelings are aroused and presumably someone who doesn't publicly display such acts of worship is devoid of such feelings and therefore 'not one of the family'. The shock of seeing a trio of black athletes giving a power salute on the Olympic podium is perhaps fresh in some peoples mind? Cassius Clay throwing away his medals? The secret societies like those of the White Supremacists also use flags, and other symbols, acronyms, graphics and numerals. Anyway, perhaps, to consider the symbols that may be relevant to the assassination of Kennedy is not so crazy after all. adl.com : "Symbols are the most powerful communication tools that have ever existed. Because they have the ability to convey so much meaning, intent and significance in such a compact, immediately recognizable form, the effect that they have is tremendous. One need only reflect on the reverence or passion that symbols ranging from the American flag to the Star of David to the Christian cross to the Red Cross can evoke to be able to understand exactly how powerful a symbol can be. Unfortunately, symbols can convey negative connotations as well as positive. Some symbols are meant to convey feelings of hate or anger, or meant to instill in those who see the symbols feelings of fear and insecurity. Hate symbols, for instance, can be found scrawled on the outside walls of synagogues, churches and schools; tattooed on the bodies of white supremacists; or displayed on jewelry or clothing. These symbols give extremists a sense of power and belonging, as well as a quick way of identifying others who share their beliefs. This database provides an overview of many such symbols frequently used by neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, racist skinheads, racist prison gangs and other hate or extremist groups or movements. Users of this database should keep in mind, however, that few symbols ever represent just one idea or are used exclusively by one group. For example, the Confederate Flag is a symbol that is frequently used by white supremacists but which also has been used by people and groups that are not racist. To some it may signify pride in one's heritage but to others it suggests slavery or white supremacy. Similarly, other symbols in this database may be significant to groups or individuals who are not extreme or racist. The descriptions here point out significant multiple meanings but may not be able to relay every single possible meaning of a particular symbol. For this reason, all of the symbols depicted here must be evaluated in the context in which they are used. About the Symbols Neo-Nazis, racist skinheads, white supremacists and others in the hate movement use symbols like swastikas, "SS" thunderbolts, runes and group logos to intimidate individuals and communities. Hate symbols are more than just "signs" demonstrating racist, anti-Semitic and anti-Christian attitudes and beliefs -- these symbols are meant to instill a sense of fear and insecurity. One finds hate symbols scrawled on the outside walls of synagogues, churches and schools; depicted on fliers and literature distributed in communities; tattooed on the bodies of white supremacists, or proudly displayed as jewelry or on clothing. These symbols give haters a sense of power and belonging, and a quick way of identifying with others who share their ideology. They offer a visual vocabulary that is used by a variety of extremists including the Ku Klux Klan, the neo-Nazi National Alliance and such Identity groups as Aryan Nations and the Posse Comitatus. The ADL database contains symbols used by neo-Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, racist skinheads, established hate groups, white supremacists and racist prison gangs. Not surprisingly, there is some degree of overlap among symbols used by these various groups. Identity groups believe that white Europeans, not Jews, are the real Biblical "Chosen People," that Jews are the children of Satan, that the white race is inherently superior to others and that Blacks and other non-whites are "mud people" without a soul." ........................................................ Number Symbol 311 Hate Group/Extremist Organization Ku Klux Klan (KKK) Extremist Meaning or Representation KKK Background/History The eleventh letter of the alphabet is the letter "K"; thus 3 times 11 equals "KKK," or Ku Klux Klan. 311 is sometimes used as a greeting to demonstrate membership in the KKK or simply sympathy with the Klan and its ideology. ......................................................... Number Symbol 336 Hate Group/Extremist Organization Ku Klux Klan (KKK) Background/History Thirty-three is 3 times 11. Since the eleventh letter of the alphabet is K, three Ks signify KKK or Ku Klux Klan. The "6" signifies the sixth or current era of the Klan. 33/6 is also used as a greeting by Klan members. ......................................................... General Racist Symbol X Also Known As Confederate Battle flag Traditional Use/Origins Civil War/Old South Hate Group/Extremist Organization White Supremacists Extremist Meaning or Representation White Southern Pride Background/History Although the flag is seen by some Southerners simply as a symbol of Southern pride, it is often used by racists to represent white domination of African-Americans. The flag remains a subject of controversy because some Southern states still fly the flag from public buildings or incorporate it into their state flag’s design. The flag is also used by racists as an alternative to the American flag, which they consider to be an emblem of what they describe as the Jewish-controlled government. ......................................................... General Racist Symbol Also Known As "Odin’s Cross" + Traditional Use/Origins The symbol for the Celts of ancient Ireland and Scotland; also used as a Christian symbol Hate Group/Extremist Organization Neo-Nazis, White Supremacists Extremist Meaning or Representation International White Pride Background/History This is one of the most popular symbols for neo-Nazis and white supremacists. First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site, Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver to represent international "white pride." It is also known as Odin’s Cross. It is important to note that the Celtic Cross is used widely today in many mainstream and cultural contexts. No one should assume that a Celtic Cross, divorced from other trappings of extremism, automatically denotes use as a hate symbol. .......................................................... Racist/Extremist Group Symbol Description A cross in a circle with the "blood drop" in the center + Hate Group/Extremist Organization Ku Klux Klan (KKK) Background/History According to the Klan, the blood drop represents the blood shed by Jesus Christ as a sacrifice for the White Aryan Race. The KKK originated as a secret society organized in the South after the American Civil War to reassert white supremacy through terrorism and intimidation. Disclaimer: Nazi Germany glorified an idealized "Aryan/Norse" heritage, consequently extremists have appropriated many symbols from pre-Christian Europe for their own uses. They give such symbols a racist significance, even though the symbols did not originally have such meaning and are often used by nonracists today, especially practitioners of modern pagan religions ............................................................ Neo-Nazi Symbol General Racist Symbol Y l Symbol Description Vertical line branching at top into three smaller lines Also Known As Elhaz rune, Algis rune Traditional Use/Origins Literally "elk," the elhaz rune in pre-Christian Europe had meanings related to stags or hunting, as well as honor, nobility, or protection. Hate Group/Extremist Organization Neo-Nazis, Racist Skinheads Extremist Meaning or Representation Often called the "life rune" (from the German lebenrune), it was the symbol of the SS's Lebensborn project (see below). To white supremacists, it signifies the future of the white race. Background/History The ancient runic symbol was adopted in the 1930s by the SS's Lebensborn project, which encouraged SS troopers to have children out of wedlock with "Aryan" mothers and which kidnapped children of Aryan appearance from the countries of occupied Europe to raise as Germans. The neo-Nazi National Alliance adopted this symbol as part of their logo. Disclaimer: Nazi Germany glorified an idealized "Aryan/Norse" heritage, consequently extremists have appropriated many symbols from pre-Christian Europe for their own uses. They give such symbols a racist significance, even though the symbols did not originally have such meaning and are often used by nonracists today, especially practitioners of modern pagan religions ............................................................ Symbol Type Neo-Nazi Symbol Racist Symbol Symbol Description Upward pointing arrow I ^ Also Known As Teiwaz, tiewaz Traditional Use/Origins The Tyr rune, named after the Norse god Tyr, was the name of an ancient runic symbol. Tyr was a god of warfare and battle. Hate Group/Extremist Organization Neo-Nazis, Racist Skinheads Background/History The Tyr rune was appropriated by the Nazi Party in Germany and used as a symbol for the leadership schools (Reichsführerschulen) of Hitler's brownshirts, the Sturmabteilung. Since then, neo-Nazis and white supremacists have continued to use the Tyr rune. Along with the Life rune, it is one of the more common runic symbols appropriated by white supremacists. Nonracist pagans may also use this symbol, so it should be judged only in context. .............................................................

I agree absolutely with both of you, It's a global problem. And good people were either struggling against it in the south or were understandably afraid to do anything. As well, the history of for example the Mnemonites migrating south to Mississippi and quite quickly adopting these attitudes show it is very difficult to remain untainted. I don't 'blame' them. A number of the active parrticipants in the anti-segregation movements are today expressing relief at the fact that the truth is coming out. However, in this context, the investigation of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, I think it needs to be recognised just how much it was a reality then. And therein lie some clues as to the identity of the perpetrators, right from the 'lumpen' foot soldiers up to the Highest echelon.

A long, long time ago I can still remember how that music used to make me smile and I knew if I had my chance that I could make those people dance and maybe they'd be happy for a while but February made me shiver with every paper I delivered, bad news on the door step, I couldn't take one more step, I can't remember if I cried when I read about his widowed bride but something touched me deep inside, the day, the music, died. So... CHORUS Bye, bye Miss American Pie drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry an them good ol' boys were drinkin whiskey and rye singin this will be the day that I die, this will be the day that I die. Did you write the book of love and do you have faith in God above, if the bible tells you so, and do you believe in rock n' roll, can music save your mortal soul and can you teach me how to dance real slow? Well I know that you're in love with him cuz I saw you dancin in the gym you both kicked off your shoes and I dig those rhythm and blues. I was a lonely teenage bronkin buck with a pink carnation and a pick up truck but I knew I was out of luck, the day, the music, died. I started singin... Chorus Now for ten years we've been on our own and moss grows fat on a rollin stone but that's not how it used to be, when the jester sang for the king and queen in a coat he borrowed from James Dean and a voice that came from you and me, oh and while the king was looking down, the jester stole his thorny crown the courtroom was adjourned, no verdict was returned, and while Lenin read a book on Marx, the quartet practiced in the park and we sang dirges in the dark, the day, the music, died. We were singin... Chorus Helter Skelter in a summer swelter the birds flew off with a fallout shelter, eight miles high and fallin fast, its the land that falled on the grass the players tried for a forward pass with the jester on the sidelines in a cast, now the half-time air was sweet perfume while the sergeants played a marching tune we all got up to dance oh but we never got the chance oh as the players tried to take the field the marching band refused to yield do you recall what was revealed, the day, the music, died. We started singin... Chorus Oh and there we were all in one place, a generation lost in space with no time left to start again, so come on, Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, Jack Flash sat on a candle stick because fire is the devils only friend, oh and as I watched him on the stage, my hands were clinched in fists of rage, no angel born in hell could break that satan's spell and as the planes climbed high into the night to light the sacrificial right I saw satan laughing with delight, the day, the music, died. He was singin... Chorus I met a girl who sang the blues and I asked her for some happy news but she just smiled and turned away, I went down to the sacred store where I'd heard the music years before but the man there said the music wouldn't play and in the streets the children screamed, the lovers cried, and the poets dreamed but not a word was spoken, the church bells all were broken and the three men I admire most, the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, they caught the last train for the coast, the day, the music, died, and they were singin... Chorus They were singin... Bye, bye Miss American Pie drove my Chevy to the levy but the levy was dry an them good ol' boys were drinkin whiskey and rye singin this will be the day that I die.

Greenwood, FOIAs, The Mississippi Sovereignty Commission, The Citizens Councils, The Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, Guy Bannister, Lee Harvey Oswald, Senator James Eastland, and the sniper who killed Medgar Evers. "The Mississippi Sovereignty Commission, formed in 1956 by the state legislature was actually one of two groups leading the state’s official resistance to civil rights. The second group – the white Citizens’ Councils – was a private organization founded two years earlier in response to Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, KS. Both aided in maintaining Mississippi’s “closed society” by interchanging information, laundering money, tipping off the Klan and FBI to activities of civil rights activists or doing anything to disrupt the plans and activities of those working on the side of civil rights. Often working the Yazoo-Mississippi Delta, a part of Mississippi with a heritage of struggle too-often ignored in other accounts, government spies (some former FBI agents or other experienced law enforcement personnel and some veterans with multiple Purple Hearts from military days past, ) gathered whatever data they could to harm black citizens and others who “agitated” for voting and civil rights. These agents worked under the direction of the state Sovereignty Commission. The commission was intended to prevent outsiders from changing Mississippi's Southern--segregationist--way of life. It was supposed to do this by publicizing how well segregation worked and by secretly keeping watch over those who wished to overturn the system. By the time it closed in 1973, thecommission's investigators had amassed confidential files on 87,000 people, making it the largest state-level spying effort in U.S. history. Some journalists not so jokingly, referred to the Sovereignty Commission as the “Cotton” or “Magnolia” Gestapo, and for good reason: School superintendents, teachers, college administrators, ministers, doctors, bankers, journalist and any others with information to be used against civil rights advocates were vulnerable to the Commission’s pressures. Those who did “inform” were both white and black. Some were paid for their tips. Some were not. In turn the Commission was typically protective of white informations but not for blacks. The information received was passed on where ever it was needed – to town constables, police officers and highway patrol officers (some who belonged to the Klan ) or to bankers and businessmen, school board members, loan officers – Citizens Councils members who could use information to financially punish errant Mississippians and others. The information kept flowing as the Sovereignty Commission used secrets gained in a variety of ways to harm the enemy – supporters of integration and voting rights for blacks. There were journalists who took advantage of a preferred relationship with the Sovereignty Commission and Councils members, and were paid for publishing slanted news and editorials at the Commission or Councils’ request, a technique borrowed from the FBI. Only a handful were brave enough to report the whole truth rather than succumb to Commission or Council pressures. A number of good people lost their jobs along the way – their credibility, their businesses, bank loans, their insurance, their reputations or their self-respect; many were injured and even killed because of what they knew or what they wanted to do or had done, all of which contributed to Mississippi’s structural attack against the state’s best and brightest in their resistance to racism and segregation. State government, at first using public funds, fed the Citizens Councils via the Sovereignty Commission, which frequently served as a pass-through of both public and private money to the Councils and their off-shoots. Some money came through private individual donations, and then from small town and city banks, the state’s real estate board, the state bar association, private medical groups, chambers of commerce and others. Yet, most of the funding for Citizens Councils projects – and later for setting up segregated white academies – came from one resource outside of Mississippi, from the accounts and foundation of one white Northeastern millionaire with direct Nazi ties, a financier who was following his own white supremacist agenda. To even acknowledge Mississippi’s state-sanctioned racism would likely result in professional character assassination. A white history professor at the University of Mississippi (Ole Miss), Dr. James Silver, wrote about Mississippi’s closed society and eventually went publicly on record as a fierce opponent of racism and its forces in the Magnolia State. From his arrival on campus in 1936, Silver began making speeches outside of the university. One speech at the Clarksdale courthouse on wage and hour issues almost caused him unanticipated trouble – as would many of his future activities: "I am sure I was extremely cautious in my remarks about federally imposed minimum wages, not popular in the Delta even though they didn’t apply to agricultural labor. At the time, I was unaware that laborers in the…lumber mills were being paid as little as ten cents an hour, and that often in company scrip. "In any case, the next morning’s Clarksdale paper vigorously condemned my talk as a communist. A couple of days later I opened a letter from Tom Gibson, a gloomy columnist for the local press, who announced quite simply that I would be fired at the end of the year. In fact, he affirmed to several members of the Board of Trustees his belief that I was a Red.” As the Sovereignty Commission and Citizens Councils grew in strength, Silver was finally forced to leave the state in 1964 and teach elsewhere. There were so many others who were punished for trying to fix the system, trying to lift the siege: Dr. Horace Germany wrote of returning to his Northern Mississippi home in 1956. For five years, the white minister worked at starting a small Bible college, where black students would also learn to run a dairy and grow their own foods. After graduation, they would help other African Americans throughout the South. Nevertheless, as his operation grew strong, Germany was approached one day by members of the white Citizens Council of Senatobia and questioned for two hours. “Was he financed by the NAACP?” Germany was asked. “I told them we had neither asked for nor received a cent from the NAACP. Then Tillman [head of Council] asked me about a check from a woman in California, and if that check hadn’t come from an ‘NAACP source.’” It was clear that Citizens Councils members had pried into Germany’s savings and checking accounts. Several days later, Germany was ambushed and beaten severely by Tillman and several Klansmen; one witness timed the beating for 45 minutes but did nothing to stop it. Germany’s physician arranged for his hospitalization at St. Joseph’s Hospital in Meridian, far away from his home, where the Sisters hid him until it was safe to go home: “[My doctor] knew the Klan would finish me off if they knew I was still alive.” Germany finally moved his school to Texas, where it grew into a successful small college, surpassing all goals he had set for the Mississippi campus. Ironically, for an espionage organization focused on secrecy, the Sovereignty Commission left massive footprints. Thanks to the American Civil Liberties Union and others, including activist Ken Lawrence most of the Commission’s secret reports are now open to the public after a twenty-five year battle. (The privacy stance of Dr. John Salter and Rev. Edwin King delayed the opening a long time, believing that some people would be killed if their names were revealed to the public.) Some Sovereignty Commission representatives hid or threw away certain reports, memoranda and communications, rather than turn over the now incriminating documents; it is probable that boxes of documents are still stowed away in private homes and garages, as well as government and FBI offices. Copies of many files should be a part of the late U. S. Senator James Eastland’s archived (but so far inaccessible) papers, since Eastland was frequently updated by Commission directors at his own request. There are some who believe the Commission’s secret work continues through the state’s secretive Bureau of Investigations; many early Sovereignty Commission records show an alliance between investigators from both organizations and the Mississippi Highway Patrol as they formally shared information. FBI files received through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) indicate this relationship was built very early on, back in the 1940s. Where Rebels Roost emphasizes many such events occurring in the Yazoo-Mississippi Delta, the remote Northwest quarter of the state, a portion of the larger Mississippi Delta. There is particular value to understanding the Delta culture because of its major role in agricultural production, resulting in a way of life that reveals the daily terror and violence experienced by blacks that often has been “insultingly romanticized as paternalism.” As unsolved Delta crimes and murders against black Delta residents were examined, it was obvious that too many facts had “disappeared” over time – if they were ever collected in the first place, making investigation difficult at the least. Even when “official” records were available, they were often suspect because of the bias that has traditionally kept Mississippi so enclaved. This Resistance to openness too often continues. When Freedom of Information Act requests (FOIAs) were handed to police chiefs, sheriffs, university officials, FBI and court officials by this author and a lawyer, only the FBI seemed to take these requests seriously. An exception was the District Attorney of Leflore County. Most FOIA recipients would not bother to search at all for requested records. The Dean of the University of Mississippi’s law school asked if he could just show his “rejection letter written to the last person who asked for this kind of information,” and then laughed. Later, it came back that “people at the University of Mississippi were really angry” over the FOIA request. Bettie Dahmer’s father, Vernon Dahmer, was murdered outside of the Delta (1966 in Hattiesburg); she asserts the importance of tracking down records from past civil rights events. "Some things have a way of getting lost if there's no permanent record," Dahmer told Nikki Davis Moute of The Hattiesburg American. "There are people who would like to forget what we went through. Some of them are alive today. They want to forget they held those views. It would have been so easy for people in power to stop the Klan then." Dahmer was only 10 years old when the Ku Klux Klan firebombed her family’s Forrest County home, but said she remembers it as if it happened yesterday. Her story was among 4,000 firsthand accounts of the civil rights movement that in 2005 were recorded and contributed to the Voices of Civil Rights, for the U. S. Library of Congress. "I told my story because I want people to know and remember what black people actually went through in the South because it is not addressed in the history books," said Dahmer, "If there is not a record of what happened, then it will be forgotten." New investigations must be opened or reopended for possibly dozens of unresolved Mississippi civil rights murders including the murders of Birdia Keglar of Charleston in Tallahatchie County, a long-time voting rights advocate killed in 1966; and Cleve McDowell, a state NAACP leader and civil rights attorney who was murdered in 1997 in Drew of Sunflower County – both counties are in the Delta. While new investigations of “more famous” crimes have been taking place throughout Mississippi, Delta civil rights murders such as these are rarely addressed. THERE ARE MANY interesting asides to the Mississippi civil rights story but perhaps, none quite so compelling as this: Seven years before President John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Sen. James O. Eastland had met Guy Bannister (“a controversial CIA operative” and retired FBI agent in charge of the Chicago bureau later linked to Lee Harvey Oswald and Eastland through the senator’s Senate Internal Security Subcommittee or SISS.) The New Orleans Times-Picayune on March 23, 1956 reported that [Robert] Morrison [a former chief counsel for Sen. Joseph McCarthy] and Banister traveled to Greenwood, Mississippi, to confer personally with Senator Eastland for more than three hours. "Describing the conference as completely 'satisfactory,' Morrsion said, 'Mr. Banister has complete liason with the committee's staff which was the main object of our trip.'" Less than two years after Kennedy was assassinated, several high-ranking Sovereignty Commission officials considered hiring Bannister to set up an even tighter domestic spying system in Mississippi. Another Eastland operative, John Sullivan, made this suggestion in March of 1965 as shown in Sovereignty Commission records. Sullivan, also a former FBI agent and private investigator, often did work for hire for the Sovereignty Commission, the white Citizens Councils, of which he was an active member, and for Eastland’s SISS committee. When he died in the mid 1960s, the Sovereignty Commission later tried to acquire his library and files, but most of his confidential files were reported as missing by his wife." - http://emmett-till.blogspot.com/2005_04_01...ll_archive.html edit:: error on my part . Medgar Evers (NOT Emmett Till) was shot (sniper at 150 feet) by a relative of Eastland. That's great Tim, I agree. Motive's not enough. I think that means and opportunity should'nt be hard to establish. Hard evidence is going to be the difficulty. However, I can point to some places where it might be (and will do so). I do have plenty of circumstantial stuff. Un fortunately these organisations have one defining characteristic : secrecy. Loyalty bound up with collective guilt or hatred or fear. This is the scenario that fits the supposition that it was not any particular group, but rather members of groupings : FBI men, police men, ordinary folk, members of government. KKK, JBS, DCC, tCC, SISS. Sworn together by an old common cause. Well established procedures for concealment and obfuscation. (for example one of a few common 'codes' within white supremacy groupings is the code of silence : 5(words) This numeral represents "I have nothing to say." FBI Major Case Inspector Joseph Sullivan summarized the problem: “They owned the place. In spirit, everyone belonged to the Klan.” Sullivan said the usual bureau approach of convincing people that cooperation was in their own best interest did not work. “It didn’t pay to push Neshobans, because they weren’t afraid.” Locals delighted in sending agents off on wild goose chases or debating agents on issues such as communist influence in the civil rights movement. Sullivan bemoaned the countless hours spent “wheel-spinning” and engaging in “jolly talks with Klansmen.”

Here are some more extracts to indicate the type of environment that President Kennedy was entering when heading south. It's from the above document dealing witn the June 64 murders of civil rights activists called the 'Mississippi Burning ' case. "As the intense search for bodies continued, investigators found several corpses of civil rights workers in lonely Mississippi places—but not any of the three everyone was looking for. They pulled the corpse of a black boy of about fourteen out of the Big Black River. The boy, who was found wearing a CORE T-shirt, was never identified. It finally became apparent that the bodies, if they were ever to be discovered, would be found not by a search but by an investigation. John Doar was later to tell a jury of twelve Mississippians that “rarely in the history of law and enforcement” was it “so difficult to obtain evidence” (??? well, lots of crimes by the sounds of it, just not that particular one) of a crime as it was to determine what took place in the four hours beginning at 9 P.M. on June 21, 1964 in and around Philadelphia. Doar said “a thousand eyes explored every corner of Neshoba County” but “Neshoba County remained silent.” He added that only “extraordinary methods” and “the maximum effort of the FBI” could bring the conspirators “to the bar of justice of law.” The FBI recognized that solving the case would require infiltration of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of Mississippi, an organization protected both by its own insularity and the fear that it inspired in the community. Before it was over, the bureau’s “Mississippi burning,” or MIBURN, investigation would include interviews with nearly one thousand Mississippians. About half of the interview subjects were known or suspected members of the Klan. The final report was over 150,000 pages long. FBI Major Case Inspector Joseph Sullivan summarized the problem: “They owned the place. In spirit, everyone belonged to the Klan.” Sullivan said the usual bureau approach of convincing people that cooperation was in their own best interest did not work. “It didn’t pay to push Neshobans, because they weren’t afraid.” Locals delighted in sending agents off on wild goose chases or debating agents on issues such as communist influence in the civil rights movement. Sullivan bemoaned the countless hours spent “wheel-spinning” and engaging in “jolly talks with Klansmen.”

John, that's an interesting approach. Here is some more information from that time to 'flesh out' the picture. Of course, as you indicated with all the other posts and links there seems to be clear reasons to argue for a reopening of the Kennedy Murder Investigations. I hope someone might raise this issue with Sykes. I'd be interested to know what he would say. ................................................................................ ......... http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/f.../doaressay.html Bending Toward Justice: John Doar and the Mississippi Burning Trial By Douglas O. Linder extracts "Doar knew Mississippi well enough to be deeply worried. The three might be dead. Doar told King that he was concerned. He would do what he could. But, as Doar told Freedom Summer volunteers just a week earlier, there was no federal police force. He suggested that King call the Mississippi Highway Safety Patrol. After hanging up the phone, Doar alerted the FBI of the disappearance of the civil rights workers. Two weeks earlier, Doar and Burke Marshall, head of the Justice Department’s civil rights division, briefed Attorney General Robert Kennedy on the growing tensions in Mississippi. Since the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan of Mississippi formed on February 15, Doar had been getting periodic reports from the FBI on the clandestine group’s activities. An April report to Doar told of sixty-one crosses simultaneously burning across the state. KKK membership in Mississippi was exploding in response to stepped-up voter registration drives. Over 10,000 white men made up the membership of twenty-nine “klaverns,” or chapters. Equally disturbing was the lack of any political will to counter the KKK with state power. What, Doar wondered, was to stop them?" ................................................ "William Harold Cox and John Michael Doar had met numerous times in the judge’s courtroom. It would be fair to describe them as being old adversaries. A 1963 letter from Cox to Doar, written in response to Doar’s request to give the voting rights case of United States v. Mississippi immediate attention, is revealing of their relationship: Dear Mr. Doar, I have a copy of your October 12 letter… thought I had made it clear to you…that I was not in the least impressed with your impudence in reciting the chronology of the case before me with which I am completely familiar. If you need to build such transcripts for your boss man, you had better do that by interoffice memoranda because I am not favorably impressed with you or your tactics in undertaking to push one of your cases before me. I spend most of my time in fooling with lousy cases brought before me by your department in the civil rights field, and I do not intend to turn my docket over to your department for your political advancement….You are completely stupid if you do not realize that each of the judges in this court understands the importance of this case to all the litigants. I do not intend to be harassed by you or any of your underlings in this or any court where I sit and the sooner you get that through your head the better you will get along with me, if that is of any interest to you…. In a recent interview, Doar called Cox “a piece of machinery,” and remembers that the judge “would really lambast me when I came into his court with a motion.” Doar once tried to have Cox censured by the Fifth Circuit for his lawless behavior on the bench. Cox owed his position on the federal bench to his friend and Ole Miss Law School roommate, James Eastland, chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Senator Eastland had the power to block President Kennedy’s appointment of NAACP counsel Thurgood Marshall to the U. S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit—an appointment Kennedy very much wanted to make. Eastland bargained for his old friend, saying to Robert Kennedy, “Tell your brother that if he will give me Harold Cox I will give him the n.” Robert Kennedy and Burke Marshall met with Cox prior to his nomination. Cox assured the Attorney General and the head of the Civil Rights division that he would enforce federal law as it had been interpreted by the Supreme Court. Satisfied with Cox’s assurance, President Kennedy nominated Cox for the federal district bench. As soon as his robe was on, however, Cox became a major obstacle to the Justice Department. In one voting rights suit brought by Doar, for example, Cox refused to let government lawyers inspect the public voting records of Clarke County. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals overruled that and many of Cox’s other decisions, but his manipulations caused considerable delay in the progress of civil rights in Mississippi."

Yes, Tim, I appreciate your input. However this topic is about that period of time in the south when John F. Kennedy was murdered. There are clear connections between the people who murdered black people and those who were in Dallas and New Orleans in 1963. This series of posts are to remind of the environment and issues that were real then. In the early sixties. Instinctively in the first few hours before Oswald became the focus, those close to the President thought 'civil rights'. The Cubans, Oswald, the Mob and all the rest came later. There were members in the establishment like Senator Eastland who were active and intimate with killers in the KKK. Theses snipers did kill. The environment was one of violence. Nothing to do with todays Muslims in this thread context. This is about identifying the murderers of Kennedy. There were good people of all races and religions fighting the good fight. The terror of the South had clear economnic causes. Bannister was involved in spying on citizens to build up databases to identify and deal with anti-segregationists. Overall in the context of the times the people involved one way or another cannot forever obfuscate the connection between bigotry and Kennedys death. There are now coming into being avenues for reopening the Kennedy murder investigations. It would be negligent not to explore them.

Presidents and civil rights activists were not the only targets of snipers in them days. Here two activists point to bullet holes on their cars. At the picnic in the center activists attend a lecture on techniques to protect their bodies in case of attack. On the left a religious leader has a rest on a parkbench following an attack. James Meredith needed protection to go to classes. Some of his protectors thought wearing hard hats a good idea. Unfortunately a couple of years later this wasn't enough to stop James from getting shot in the back by a sniper in a tree. Four years earlier::: http://www.africanamericans.com/JamesMeredith.htm "1962 University of Mississippi Riot President Kennedy ordered Federal Marshals to escort James Meredith, the first black student to enroll at the University of Mississippi, to campus. A riot broke out and before the National Guard could arrive to reinforce the marshals, two students were killed. In January 1961, James Meredith, an African American, applied for admission to the University of Mississippi. Officials at the school returned his application. Mr. Meredith took his case to court. On September 10, 1962, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that he had the right to attend the University of Mississippi. The Governor of Mississippi, Ross Barnett, personally blocked Mr. Meredith from registering at the University even after the Supreme Court ruled. Finally, on September 30, 1962, a Sunday, Mr. Meredith was escorted onto the campus by federal marshals and Civil Rights Division lawyers. Stationed on or near the campus to protect him were 123 deputy federal marshals, 316 US Border Patrolmen, and 97 federal prison guards. Within an hour, the federal forces were attacked by a mob that would grow to number 2,000 and who fought them with guns, bricks, bottles, and Molotov cocktails. The marshals had been ordered not to shoot and so used tear gas to try to stop the rioting. The violence continued until President Kennedy sent 16,000 federal troops to the campus. When it was over, 2 people were dead, 28 marshals had been shot, 160 people were injured, and James Meredith became the first black student to attend the University of Mississippi." (The negotiations with the governor leading up to James' admission is an interesting insight into the Kennedy's judicious use of transcripts and taped phone conversations.)

very interestin, Lee. You sure got a good eye. Here's a contact sheet of attempt at rotgating and relocatin corner crops. a gif? I'll check out other pics. As aside I came across a statement by Abraham that indicated bushes were pruned as he commented on things looking different on pics he was shown compared to his memories. edit:: image sequence .. bottom right to top left

june 63 copy of life magazine (with article on 'space girls' by Clare Luce) with Evers and his assassin, a KKK sniper related to Eastland who had dealings with Bannister.

from above post Bannister had been seeking work with SISS. Eastland was related to the Ku Klux Klan sniper who murdered Medgar Evers. ....................................... "Seven years before President John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Sen. Eastland had met with Guy Banister (“a controversial CIA operative” and retired FBI agent in charge of the Chicago bureau and later linked to Lee Harvey Oswald and Eastland through the senator’s Senate Internal Security Subcommittee or SISS) at the senator’s Delta home. The New Orleans Times-Picayune on March 23, 1956 reported that [Robert] Morrison [a former chief counsel for Sen. Joseph McCarthy] and Banister traveled to Greenwood, Mississippi, to confer personally with Senator Eastland for more than three hours. "Describing the conference as completely 'satisfactory,' Morrsion said, 'Mr. Banister has complete liaison with the committee's staff which was the main object of our trip.'" ........................................ From a press report: January 22, 2001 Byron De La Beckwith, a white supremacist who escaped justice for 31 years before being convicted in the 1963 murder of civil rights activist Medgar Evers, died late on Sunday night in a Jackson, Mississippi, hospital, a hospital spokeswoman said on Monday. Beckwith, 80, was serving a life sentence at Central Mississippi Correctional Facility in Rankin County. He died just hours after he was taken to University Medical Center complaining of chest pains. "I can confirm that he expired yesterday at 10:12 p.m. Mississippi time Monday,'' hospital spokeswoman Barbara Austin said, adding it was not hospital policy to release the cause of death. Beckwith, a retired fertilizer salesman and decorated Second World War veteran, was convicted in 1994 for the June 12, 1963, slaying of Evers, who was shot in the back as he walked up his driveway. Evers, 37, had drawn the wrath of white supremacists for spearheading efforts by the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) to win equal rights for blacks in the once deeply segregated southern state. All-white juries at two earlier trials were unable to reach verdicts in the case despite the discovery of Beckwith's fingerprint on the deer rifle used to kill Evers. Beckwith, who insisted he was 90 miles away in Greenwood, Mississippi, when Evers was murdered, would in the years following the mistrials brag to his friends about "beating the system.'' In 1967, Beckwith ran for lieutenant governor of Mississippi, finishing fifth with more than 34,000 votes. In 1973, he was convicted and sentenced to five years in prison for possessing dynamite without a permit. He later moved with his wife to Signal Mountain, Tennessee, where he lived in relative obscurity as an ordained minister for the Christian Identity Movement, a white supremacist group. Although many Mississippians would come to accept integration and subsequent efforts to extend equal rights to blacks, Beckwith, who once referred to Evers as a "mongrel,'' would never desist from his racist views. "He was stuck in time and just could not budge,'' said Brad Bond, a professor of history at the University of Southern Mississippi, who described Beckwith as both a monstrous and tragic figure. Beckwith continued to publicly deny killing Evers, but his explanations failed to sway a new generation of Mississippi prosecutors who reopened the case in 1989 at the prompting of Evers' widow, former NAACP leader Myrlie Evers Williams. Armed with new evidence and a 127-page document alleging numerous errors in the original trial, prosecutors had Beckwith arrested again on December 17, 1990. A jury of eight blacks and four whites found him guilty of murder following a two-week trial. In 1997 the Mississippi Supreme Court upheld the conviction, which has led to the reopening of a number of 1960s civil rights crimes in the state. Although now widely regarded as a crude villain for his assassination of Evers, Beckwith was wounded and awarded a Purple Heart for valor during the Battle of Tarawa during the Second World War. In an ironic twist, it is Evers who lies buried in Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia, the resting place for many of the nation's presidents and national heroes. Beckwith will likely be buried in Mississippi after an autopsy. http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/mwevers.htm

extracts from a fascinating history of Mississippi. ( http://themiddleoftheinternet.com/RebelsRoostPrologue.pdf ) Bannister had been seeking work with SISS. Eastland was related to the Ku Klux Klan sniper who murdered Medgar Evers. ....................................... "Seven years before President John F. Kennedy was assassinated, Sen. Eastland had met with Guy Banister (“a controversial CIA operative” and retired FBI agent in charge of the Chicago bureau and later linked to Lee Harvey Oswald and Eastland through the senator’s Senate Internal Security Subcommittee or SISS) at the senator’s Delta home. The New Orleans Times-Picayune on March 23, 1956 reported that [Robert] Morrison [a former chief counsel for Sen. Joseph McCarthy] and Banister traveled to Greenwood, Mississippi, to confer personally with Senator Eastland for more than three hours. "Describing the conference as completely 'satisfactory,' Morrsion said, 'Mr. Banister has complete liaison with the committee's staff which was the main object of our trip.'" ........................................ "In the early morning hours of June 12, 1963, a courageous civil rights leader lay bleeding to death in the driveway to his home. A Ku Klux Klansman had shot Medgar Evers as he arrived home at 12:20 a.m. after a long night at work. Evers had left his car and started for the door. His wife and children jumped up to meet him, as the sniper, crouching 150 feet away in a honeysuckle thicket, fired one shot from his Enfield .30’06 high velocity rifle, then dropped the weapon into a patch of weeds and ran away. Evers was hit in his back, just below his shoulder blade; the bullet tore out the front of his chest and rippled on through the living room “to spend itself against the kitchen refrigerator.” He tried to stagger to his feet and work his way toward the kitchen door, but collapsed instead. His wife ran out to him, held his head in her arms and cried. His friends place Evers on a mattress and rushed him by car to the University Hospital, open to whites only. Evers was at first refused admission. When hospital officials realized who he was, they broke the hospital's color barrier for the first time in its history. “Turn me loose!” These were the last words of Medgar Evers; the kind and patient man beloved by many was pronounced dead one hour later. At least one person in Neshoba County knew where "the car" was located before the FBI found it. The burned-out blue station wagon that everyone in town was keeping their eyes out for was stuck in the muddy Bogue Chitto swamp. A grandmother said she saw it first and called the FBI. It surprised her that the agents were slow to arrive; it took them two hours before they responded. Two days earlier, on Sunday June 21, 1964, a dozen Klansmen, who had bombed an African American church, chased three young civil rights workers into the night before killing them. It took another forty-four days to find the young mens’ bodies – buried fifteen feet beneath an earthen dam, covered by the red Mississippi clay. On the night they were killed, the three men had been stopped by a sheriff's deputy and temporarily jailed. He later released them into a mob of Klan members who beat and shot them. The State of Mississippi delayed filing criminal murder charges against any of the Klansmen involved until January 7, 2005 when they hauled in one old man – a Baptist “preacher” – who had avoided conviction for federal conspiracy charges in 1967. In that trial, a holdout juror said she “could never convict a preacher.”