Robert Howard

The Day Kennedy Was Shot by Jim Bishop On page 192, immediately after Bishop's account of the assassination, he writes..... In newspaper offices across the United States, a small bell began to tinkle. In the wire rooms, the UPI machine was chattering about a murder trial in Minneapolis, Minnesota: DETECTIVES WERE THERE AND THEY "ASKED HIM TO LOOK IN THERE (THE BRIEFCASE) FOR SOMETHING." THE CASE WAS OPENED AND AN ENVELOPE WAS FOUND CONTAINING 44 $100 DOLLAR BILLS, THE WITNESS SAID. THE STATE HAD SAID IT WOULD PRODUCE THAT PIECE OF EVIDENCE BUT DEFENSE HAD IMPLIED IT WILL TAKE THE LINE THAT CAROL'S DEATH AFTER A SAVAGE BLUDGEONING AND STABBING IN HER HOME WAS THE RESULT OF AN ATTEMPTED MOREDA 1234 PCS UPI A 7N DA PRECEDE KENNEDY DALLAS. NOV. 22 (UPI) --- THREE SHOTS WERE FIRED AT PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S MOTORCADE IN DOWNTOWN DALLAS JT1234PCS Robert: Now don't misunderstand me John, I am not advancing the premise that William Manchester's woman stabbed in Dallas at 10:40 C.D.T., was really an account of some murder trial that took place, gosh knows how long before November 22, 1963, but the above is as close as I have come to any kind of possibility exempting a real event which took place namely a fatal stabbing of a woman in Dallas the same day that JFK died....... FWIW, I did find out who CAROL was, she was Carol Thompson Apparently it was one of the most famous murders in Minnesota history See http://174.123.24.24...LWAR1-1950-1985 On the morning of March 6, 1963, Carol Thompson was beaten and stabbed to death in her St. Paul home. Evidence collected at the scene of the crime led to the arrest in Arizona of one Dick W. C. Anderson. Anderson confessed to the murder and implicated several other parties, among whom were Norman Mastrian and respondent. Anderson's testimony at the trial was that he was approached by Mastrian on March 3, 1963, and asked "if he was interested in killing a woman"; Anderson also testified that when questioned Mastrian admitted that "insurance was involved." Richard Sharp, one of the men implicated in the conspiracy, testified that Mastrian had earlier offered the job to him, describing the victim as "a churchgoing woman with four children" and "heavily insured." At any rate, if anything else comes out on all of this, I will not place it on this thread, since it is supposed to be about the motorcade..Apologies

That is really good advice John. And to prove it is really good advice, when I searched the newspaper archives for fatally stabbed, among other variations, there were newspaper articles under "fatally stabbed" in circa 1961 and 1962 none for 1963, at least none that were listed and 1964-65; for some strange reason almost all of them were African-American's. As far as another county jurisdiction, I don't think so..because as I was mentioning earlier, such a heinous type of murder, almost beyond multiple stabbings; should have produced a plethora of newspaper, judicial and year in review types of accounts......In which my searching experiences showed no results whatsoever..... Having said all that, [and irrespective of what the following leads one to believe, I am still going to attempt to follow this through to a definitive conclusion;] I have run across a possible explanation, and when I say possible I mean it in the loosest sense of the word.....This, I do not believe is in The Death of A President, but in the other early era somewhat definitve The Day Kennedy Was Shot by Jim Bishop On page 192, immediately after Bishop's account of the assassination, he writes..... In newspaper offices across the United States, a small bell began to tinkle. In the wire rooms, the UPI machine was chattering about a murder trial in Minneapolis, Minnesota: DETECTIVES WERE THERE AND THEY "ASKED HIM TO LOOK IN THERE (THE BRIEFCASE) FOR SOMETHING." THE CASE WAS OPENED AND AN ENVELOPE WAS FOUND CONTAINING 44 $100 DOLLAR BILLS, THE WITNESS SAID. THE STATE HAD SAID IT WOULD PRODUCE THAT PIECE OF EVIDENCE BUT DEFENSE HAD IMPLIED IT WILL TAKE THE LINE THAT CAROL'S DEATH AFTER A SAVAGE BLUDGEONING AND STABBING IN HER HOME WAS THE RESULT OF AN ATTEMPTED MOREDA 1234 PCS UPI A 7N DA PRECEDE KENNEDY DALLAS. NOV. 22 (UPI) --- THREE SHOTS WERE FIRED AT PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S MOTORCADE IN DOWNTOWN DALLAS JT1234PCS Robert: Now don't misunderstand me John, I am not advancing the premise that William Manchester's woman stabbed in Dallas at 10:40 C.D.T., was really an account of some murder trial that took place, gosh knows how long before November 22, 1963, but the above is as close as I have come to any kind of possibility exempting a real event which took place namely a fatal stabbing of a woman in Dallas the same day that JFK died....... Like I said earlier, I am going to pursue the story as long as it takes to satisfy my curiosity......I know I have seen a lifetime of stuff right out of Ripley's Believe It Or Not researching the JFK assassination, nothing really surprises me anymore..... Except perhaps a Texas Governor running for President whose "qualifications" include slashing 4 Billion dollars out of the State of Texas Budget slated for "school education."

Bernice, I would like to ask you for some help too. Some people might say that my concern over this is not really important. But my outlook is that no-one can ever know too much about the assassination of President Kennedy. Its about the alleged third murder in Dallas, Texas on November 22, 1963. President Kennedy and Jefferson Davis Tippit being the first two. Again, William Manchester is the source. Who Manchester's source for this may not be determinable.... But there are even clues about that..... Here we go. The public did not know for example that President Kennedy and Officer Tippit were not the only people killed in Dallas on November 22. At 10:40 that evening there was a third murder unrelated to the others. The victim, a thirty-two year-old woman was stabbed to death by her lover. In police language he “picked up a butcher knife and started cutting up on the deceased.” She was pronounced dead at Parkland. The Death of a President pg 414, by Manchester, William (1967) page 669 The Death of a President - William Manchester, William/Harper and Row, 1967 possible source? Lumpkin, Era, nurse’s aide, Parkland Hospital. Report of Activities, 22 November 1963”; N.D. My thoughts..... what makes it weird is that it, acc to William Manchester, it was a woman who was savagely stabbed to death by her lover and arrived? at Parkland at 10:40 CDT at Parkland...So I have done some incredibly detailed looking into this...why it is so strange 1. The death as far as criminal penalties for sentencing..apparently they had the suspect in custody, would have resulted in 3 results, more or less 1. Death sentence 2. Life in prison 3. Insanity plea remanded to a mental institution..... Looking for those type of historical reference points HAS to lead to accompanying articles legal briefs ALWAYS found on internet and books, but especially in legal journals, which are always found online....And yet I found nothing, nada, zilch. Which leads to a fundamental question or answer, either Manchester was wrong and it didn't happen...or he was wrong in saying "it wasn't related to the other deaths that day...JFK Tippit.....or he was given bogus info I know it is late in the game, but I believe any researcher worth his salt would be a literal idiot to not resolve this.... What else I discovered. Dallas Morning News, page 4 June 25, 1958 FBI Man Lauds Police of Dallas Edward L. Boyle, Special Agent in Charge of the Dallas FBI Office Officer G.L. Lumpkin Production Executive Appointed by Gulf Oil; Dallas Morning News; Date: 11-17-1959; Page: 7; Location: Dallas, Texas Named to succeed Gregersen in London as a Gulf-Eastern vice-president was T.D. Lumpkin formerly vice president of Mene Grande Oil Company J. C. Lumpkin, Rail Terminal Officer, Dies; Dallas Morning News; Date: 12-28-1959; First Aid Course to Begin Tuesday; Dallas Morning News; Date: 11-26-1965; Page: 4; Location: Dallas, Texas at the Dallas County Red Cross...Instructor for the free public training is Mrs Emma E Lumpkin Call Indentifies Nurse Who Helped Man; Dallas Morning News; Date: 06-19-1966; Page: 21; A call to the Dallas Morning News revealed the nurse to be Mrs. Fred Lumpkin Dallas Morning News; Date: 09-23-1968; Page: 4; ENNIS, Tx - (Sp) O. H. Lumpkin, 70, a retired Army Colonel and lifetime Ennis resident died here Sunday. Lumpkin, a veteran of World War I, World War II, and the Korean Conflict, was also a retired conductor of the Southern Pacific Railroad. Dallas area survivors include two brothers W.H. Lumpkin and R.M. Lumpkin and two sisters Miss Roland Lumpkin and Miss Myra Lumpkin. Funeral Services will be held at 10 am Tuesday in the Keever Funeral Chapel here Burial with military ceremonies will be held in Myrtle Cemetery Dallas Morning News, page 1 January 1, 1970 Former Chief Dies of Illness Charles Batchelor....... reacting to criticism of the IACP system Batchelor demoted one of his longtime assistants and colleagues George Lumpkin on the grounds Lumpkin impeded the switchover Miami Herald, The (FL) - October 6, 1987 Deceased Name: THOMAS LUMPKIN , EX-GULF OIL VICE PRESIDENT Thomas D. Lumpkin, an attorney and retired president of Gulf Oil Co.'s Latin American division, died Sunday of liver disease. He was 73. The Amarillo, Texas , native spent much of his career in the oil business, and much of that time in Latin America and England. He had lived in Coral Gables, where Gulf's Latin American headquarters are based, since becoming vice president of the division in 1969. Business wasn't Mr. Lumpkin's only concern. "He was very active here in Miami," said his son, Tom II. Mr. Lumpkin served on a number of community boards, including the Florida International University Foundation, WPBT-TV, Ransom Everglades School and the Fairchild Tropical Garden. The son of an attorney, Mr. Lumpkin graduated from the University of Texas with a law degree in 1936. He joined the legal department of Phillips Petroleum the following year. With the outbreak of World War II, he became a special agent for the FBI and was assigned to Colombia and Venezuela. For part of the war, he worked as a legal attache in embassies in Bogota and Caracas. Mr. Lumpkin went with Gulf in 1948. He began in industrial relations and worked his way into management. He became a world- wide coordinator for exploration and production in 1966. In 1971, he was named president of the Latin division. Mr. Lumpkin spent many of his last years with Gulf negotiating buyouts with Latin American countries, his son said. In the early 1970s, several nations nationalized the holdings of U.S. companies within their boundaries, he said. Mr. Lumpkin's role was to see to it that Gulf was fairly paid for those holdings. He retired from Gulf in 1976. In recent years, Mr. Lumpkin has been associated with the Miami law firm of Valdes-Fauli, Cobb and Petrey, P.A. In addition to Tom II, Mr. Lumpkin's survivors include his wife, Elizabeth; and a second son, Hugh. Services will be at 3 p.m. today, at the Van Orsdel Coral Gables Chapel. In lieu of flowers, donations may be made to a charity of choice. George Lonnie. Lumpkin (RIP July 15, 1994 Dallas Morning News, The (TX) - July 18, 1994 Deceased Name: Services today for George Lumpkin , 40-year member of Dallas police force Retired Dallas police Capt. George Lumpkin, 84, died Friday of cancer. Services will be at 4 p.m. Monday at Restland Memorial Chapel in Dallas. Mr. Lumpkin served for 40 years in the Police Department and played a significant role in the investigation of President John F. Kennedy's assassination, his family said. "Dad was in the lead car of the motorcade," said his daughter, Maureen Stone. "He was also one of the first to reach the hospital when Kennedy was shot." He also served 39 months in the Army during World War II, receiving the Bronze Star for taking part the capture of 30 prisoners, his daughter said. "He captured them without killing them," Mrs. Stone said. "My father believed in not using guns unless necessary." He retired as a colonel from the Army Reserves and was awarded the Legion of Merit for his service as commandant of the Dallas Area Army Reserve School. Other survivors include his wife, Katherine Lumpkin; son Michael Lumpkin of Dallas; sister Mildred Bunch of Arlington; six grandchildren; and two great-grandchildren. Sun, The (Baltimore, MD) - September 5, 1998 Deceased Name: WILLIAM G. LUMPKIN SR. 88, ADVERTISING SALES MANAGER William Garrett Lumpkin Sr., former advertising sales manager for The Baltimore Sun, died Thursday at St. Joseph Medical Center from complications of a fall. He was 88 and lived at the Edenwald Retirement Community in Towson. A longtime Woodbrook resident, he retired in 1975 after a 30-year career with the newspaper. He was born and raised in Virginia, and attended Emory & Henry College in Emory, Va. He moved to Baltimore at the beginning of World War II, and worked for the old Glenn L. Martin Co. in Middle River. An avid golfer, he was a member of the Boumi Temple and the Towson Shrine. He was a communicant of the Roman Catholic Cathedral of Mary Our Queen, where a Mass of Christian burial will be offered at 11 a.m. today. He was married in 1931 to the former Emma L. Goodwin, who died in 1955. He is survived by his wife of 37 years, the former Gertrude Hoffman; a son, William Garrett Lumpkin Jr. of Jacksonville, Fla.; two brothers, Charles Lumpkin of Tappahannock, Va., and Pierce Lumpkin of Richmond; two sisters, Inez Haynes of Charlottesville and Elizabeth Stansall of Richmond; and two grandchildren. Dallas Morning News, The (TX) - May 20, 2003 Deceased Name: LUMPKIN LARRY LUMPKIN, LARRY, 70. a retired realtor and owner of Larry LUMPKIN, LARRY, 70, a retired realtor and owner of Larry Lumpkin Realtors in Oak Cliff for many years. A graduate of Sweeney High School and a graduate of the class of '54 Texas A & M., spent 9 years in the U. S. Army with two tours in Germany. He then worked with Neiman Marcus and Helen Corbitt, and then the food industry before becoming a realtor. Survivors include his son and daughter in law; Wayne and Mitzy Lumpkin of Dallas and brother John Houston of Duncanville, and a number of cousins. Graveside services and interment will be at 11 A.M. Wednesday, May 21, 2003 at Wheatland Cemetery in Dallas, Texas with Rev. Jack D. McNabb officiating. The family will receive friends from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. Tuesday at the funeral home. West / Hurtt Funeral Home 217 S. Hampton Road DeSoto (972) 223-6314 www.legacy.com Dallas Morning News, The (TX) - May 10, 2009 Deceased Name: Lumpkin , Dr. Forrest Edward Lumpkin, Dr. Forrest Edward The life of Dr. Forrest Edward Lumpkin, Jr. ended on Tuesday May 5, 2009 as his body, but not his unquenchable spirit, failed him. Forrest was born on November 5, 1921 in Kaufman, TX at the house of his grandfather, Dr. James Walter Park, Sr., where his mother had also been born 28 years earlier. Young Forrest grew up in Terrell, TX and, in 1939, graduated from Terrell High School, as had his father. Forrest obtained his undergraduate education from the Rice Institute and the University of Texas obtaining a bachelor's degree from the latter in 1942. While a student at Texas he was an active member of the Kappa Alpha fraternity and remained close with many of his KA brothers for all his life. After college, Forrest studied medicine at Thomas Jefferson Medical School in Philadelphia. After completing his internship at Jefferson, Forrest served his country as a medical officer in the US Army spending time overseas at the US Army hospital in Okinawa. After completing military service, Forrest entered and completed a surgical residency at Parkland Hospital in Dallas. He then opened private practice in Dallas as a general surgeon. After years of life as a bachelor, Forrest settled down and married Katherine Barbee Gaines, known as Kay, on August 5, 1961. Forrest and Kay were blessed by a son, Forrest III, on August 22, 1963. Before baby Forrest turned one, the elder Forrest took the family to Houston for a year to continue his medical training. He obtained a second specialization in peripheral vascular surgery in July of 1965 and then returned with his small family to Dallas in July where he again resumed his private practice. The family almost doubled in size when Forrest and Kay were again blessed with children, twin daughters, Katherine Pendleton Gaines Lumpkin and Vera Elizabeth Park Lumpkin, on December 3, 1966. Forrest, Kay, Forrest III, and the twins, known as Kathy and Libby, moved from North Dallas to Highland Park in 1969. Forrest enjoyed hunting, racquetball, tennis, skiing, swimming, travel, and coin and stamp collecting. He was an active member of Highland Park United Methodist Church and regularly attended its Wesleyan Fellowship Sunday School class. He was a fellow of the American College of Surgeons. He was a member of the Dallas County Medical Association, the Texas Medical Association, the American Medical Association, and the Dallas County Society of General Surgeons. He was active in the YMCA and served for years on the Board of Directors for the Dallas YMCA's Camp Grady Spruce. He retired from active medical practice at Presbyterian Hospital of Dallas in 1993, but remained involved in the field by regularly attending Presbyterian's Tumor Board. After retirement he indulged his passion for travel and ventured to Alaska, Russia, China -- including Hong Kong, India, the Mediterranean, Brazil, Mexico, and elsewhere. Forrest is survived by his three children: Forrest III, Elizabeth Lumpkin Williams, and Katherine Lumpkin Escoe, by the spouses of his children: respectively, the former Suzanne Sawyer, Steven Williams, and Gene Escoe, and by six young granddaughters. Forrest was preceded in death by his parents, Forrest Edward Lumpkin, Sr. and Vera Park Lumpkin and by his wife Kay. Visitation will be held Sunday, May 10 from 4 to 6 at the Restland funeral home. A memorial service celebrating Forrest's life will be held Monday, May 11 at 10 o'clock in the morning in the Sanctuary at Highland Park United Methodist Church. In lieu of flowers, memorials can be made to the Vera and Forrest Lumpkin Surgical Lectureship, UT Southwestern, PO Box 910888, Dallas, Texas 75391-0888. William Bryan Lumpkin Jr., 81, passed away Sunday, Jan. 31, 2010, in a Lake Charles hospital with his loving family at his side. Funeral service will be at 1 p.m. Wednesday, Feb. 3, from St. Margaret Catholic Church, under the direction of Johnson Funeral Home, Lake Charles. Officiating will be the Rev. Bill Miller and the Rev. Marcus Johnson. Visitation at the funeral home will be Tuesday from 5 p.m. until 7 p.m., with a Scripture service at 6 p.m. The first Scripture reading at the funeral Mass will be by Lindsay Lumpkin Colvin and the second Scripture reading will be by Mark Lumpkin Jr., with the third reading by Luke Bryan Lumpkin. Entombment will be at Consolata Cemetery Chapel. Mr. Lumpkin owned and operated Lumpkin Insurance Agency for 42 years, developing the largest Kemper agency in the United States, thanks to the people of Calcasieu Parish. He was a past president of Lake Charles Life Underwriters Association and of Louisiana Association of Life Underwriters. He was named Man of the Year for Louisiana Life Leaders and for PIA of Louisiana. He was a lecturer at the LSU Institute of Insurance Marketing and a life member of the Million Dollar Round Table and a knight of the MDRT. He served as president of the Southwest Investors Club and was a commissioner of Lake Charles Little League Baseball. He was an Eagle Scout and former member of the Lake Charles Charles F. Buck Chapter of Demolay. He served in the U.S. Navy aboard the USS Huntington (CL-107) in the Mediterranean-Adriatic seas and was honorably discharged from the Huntington in 1946. As a member of St. Margaret Catholic Church, Mr. Lumpkin served as a member of the church council and of the finance committee. He was an usher, lector and Eucharistic minister. He was a 59-year member of the Fourth Degree Knights of Columbus and a past grand knight of Council 1207. In the early 1950s, as a part-time Bible salesman, he sold more than 1,100 family Bibles in the Lake Charles area. He was a convert and very proud of his Roman Catholic Church, his family and his LSU Tigers. Survivors are his wife of 64 years, Nona Carr Lumpkin; three sons, Steven Bryan Lumpkin and wife Jennifer, of Western Grove, Ark., Mark Eric Lumpkin Sr. and wife Debbie, of Baton Rouge, and William Brent Lumpkin and wife Jane, of Lake Charles; foster son, Jorge Maximo LeRoy, of Lafayette; six granddaughters, 13 grandsons, 14 great-grandsons and seven great-granddaughters. Preceded in death by his parents, brother, sister and grandson. The Lumpkin family emigrated from Ireland to Charleston, S.C., in the late 1700s. Mr. Lumpkin's mother's family, the Hutmachers, emigrated from east Germany to Illinois in the late 1800s. He was very proud of his two valiant great-grandmothers, who were successful American pioneers, Catherine Houston Lumpkin, niece of Gen. Sam Houston, of Texas, and Anna Maria Hauben Hutmacher, niece of Kaiser Wilhelm, of Germany. Pallbearers will be his grandsons, Eric, Mark Jr., Luke, Jeremy, Garrett, Blake, Casey, Brooks and Taylor. Memorial donations may be made to St. Margaret Catholic Church, 2500 Enterprise Blvd., Lake Charles, LA 70601, "de Colores" - "All in Color." "Tempus Fugit, Memento Mori" - "Time flies, Remember Death." Words of comfort to the family may be expressed at www.johnsonfuneral home.net. Littleton Independent (MA) - January 6, 2011 Deceased Name: John H. Lumpkin LITTLETON - John H. Lumpkin, of Paula Beth St. Littleton, died Sunday, Dec. 26 at Emerson Hospital, Concord. He was born in Rome, Ga., son of the late Smith and Daisy (Burgess) Lumpkin. He was the husband of the late Jean (Erikson) Lumpkin who died in 2006. Mr. Lumpkin was a twenty year Army veteran who retired in 1964. At the end of his career in the Army he worked as a photographer and continued working as a photographer after retiring from the Army. He leaves a son John Jr. of Littleton, two stepsons: Doug Greenaway of Florida and Tom Greenaway of Pepperell; nine grandchildren and nine greatgrandchildren. Visitation was on Monday, Jan. 3, 2011, from 4 - 6 p.m. in the Fowler-Kennedy Funeral Home, 42 Concord St., Maynard. Burial services will be private. http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/history/the_deed/Sneed/Lumpkin.html W. G. “Bill” Lumpkin Solo Motorcycle Officer Dallas Police Department “We were going fast, very fast! I’m going to say we might have hit speeds up to 80–85 M.P.H. on Stemmons… I saw the limousine behind us, and I noticed this Secret Service man hanging on the back of it with his coat hanging, and I was amazed that he could hang on… When we got to Hines, there was a railroad track, and I know that I got airborne… I knew that if I went down I’d probably get run over…” Born and raised in Avery, Texas, Bill Lumpkin worked at General Dynamics as an aircraft electrician after serving a hitch in the military. He joined the Dallas Police Department in 1953 and was assigned as one of the lead motorcycle officers in the Kennedy motorcade. ***** I don’t know what time we went to work that day. I remember having a detail with all the squads of the motor jockeys together, and we were all given our assignments. We knew the route and where we were going and approximately how long we were going to be. We were told what to do in case things happened, what hospital to go to if an emergency came up. That would be the only time we would use the siren. I was one of the people that led the parade along with Leon Gray, Ellis, and McBride. There were quite a few of us in the parade, but some of the motor jockeys weren’t assigned to the parade. Some of them were sent to stand-by stations. It wasn’t considered necessarily an honor; you just did what they told you. I escorted a lot of parades, so it was just an assignment. Probably if I hadn’t been in the parade, my feelings would have been hurt. But we used to have a lot of parades in town and there had been times when other jockeys had gone out of town on assignments, and I’d stayed in to lead a parade because I had done it so many times. I was used to doing it. There was nothing special about that particular morning. We spit and polished our equipment and our uniforms and were told to assemble at Love Field. There were a lot of folks there, a lot of folks! We had no problems with the parade except one time, I believe, the President got out of the car on Lemmon. The Secret Service got on the back end and proceeded again. When you lead a parade, you limit your speed to whatever speed they want to go. And so we really had to keep our eye on his vehicle by turning around and looking because he was slowing down. My job in leading the parade was to make sure the crowd was back out of the street in front, and then, of course, you alert the officers up on the parade route that the parade is behind you. But the main thing is, when you’re four abreast like that, you keep the street clear for the parade. You look back and try to be sure that the parade is in a group, that it hadn’t straggled out. And you can slow them down for that. But nothing stands out. It was just a presidential motorcade. We were in front of the President’s car when the shooting took place. We were stopped on Elm Street between Houston street and the Triple Underpass. There were only three of us at the time. McBride had already gone over to Stemmons to notify them that we were getting ready to come through since they were going to close Stemmons northbound. Sergeant Ellis had asked him to go on up and notify them that we were en route. But we had turned off of Main Street onto Houston for one block, then over to Elm Street, then turned back left, and we were stopped at the time before we heard the shots. When the shots occurred, I thought it was a motorcycle backfiring. The motors were running really hot because we had been going slowly for so long. They would have a tendency to backfire when they were running hot, and running slow for a long period would cause them to run hot. I heard three distinct bangs with none of them being together or anything like that. There’s been conflicting reports where all the noise came from. From where I was it was behind me. I’ve heard people say a lot of different things over the years, but when you have buildings and other obstructions, you’re going to have an echo factor and different opinions. The shots came from behind where I was and, as I mentioned, I thought it was a motorcycle backfiring at first, till I turned back and saw the commotion in the President’s convertible. I wasn’t sure at the time what it was, but it later turned out that it was his wife on the back. There was no problem seeing the car, but at the time, I jut saw a figure. Then Chaney rode up to Curry and probably told him that the President had been shot. We were still stopped at that time, and then Chief Curry comes on and says, “Let’s go boys!” I’m not sure that there was anything said other than that and, of course, we headed for Parkland because we knew in case something happened, that was where we were supposed to go. We went under the Triple Underpass and took the entrance ramp to Stemmons Freeway. At that time, Sergeant Ellis stopped there at Stemmons. Leon Gray, Chaney, and myself escorted the parade on to Parkland Hospital by way of Stemmons to Industrial, Industrial to Hines, Hines to the entrance into the back of Parkland. We were going very, very fast! I’m going to say we might have hit speeds up to 80–85 M.P.H. on Stemmons. We were going just as fast as we could get the car to go. I saw the limousine behind us, and I noticed this Secret Service man hanging on the back of it with his coat hanging, and I was amazed that he could hang on. When we got to Hines, there was a railroad track, and I know that I got airborne. I’m sure that I was out front and Gray and Chaney behind me. More than likely they got airborne, too. You didn’t have a lot of space over on the other end, and when you land to turn, I knew that if I went down I’d probably get run over. But you train and you know that you can drag your footstand without going over as long as you don’t go over too far. Oh, you’re going to get some sparks and some noise when you go over that far, but unless you get on some oil or sand or something like that, you can stay up. But it was a fast ride! Nothing much goes through your mind at a time like that. You know that you’ve got a job to do, and you want to do your job well. When we came off of Stemmons, we were supposed to turn into Market Hall. Sergeant Striegel and some other officers were there, including some other jockeys, and he came out into the street waving because we were going too fast and that we were supposed to pull in there. I guess he hadn’t heard that the President had been shot, and you have to worry about him not getting too far out into the street. But you’re concerned with just doing your job when something like this happens. After it’s over, then you have time to think about it. When we turned into the hospital, there was only a certain amount of parking space back there. Since I was in the lead, I stopped to get off my motor to make sure that cars that didn’t belong there didn’t come in because I was in a better position to react. So I stopped probably a couple hundred feet from the emergency entrance. When the last cars that I knew and the last jockeys came in, I stopped traffic. We had to get all that secured. I was the only one right then. Later some people came up to help me, but it wasn’t any big problem then. You just stepped out and stopped them. That was the main thing you wanted to do was to just get more cars in there so you could maneuver the other vehicles. I was probably still in the process of just getting off my motor when the limousine came by. I saw the President slumped down, and I saw Lyndon Johnson. Johnson was like a ghost; I thought he was shot. He came by after the President riding in a different vehicle, if I remember right. His face was familiar to me because I had had some problems with him in the past back when he was running the year Kennedy got the nomination. Leon Gray, at that time, was my partner. Our assignment was that we were to ride on each side of his vehicle for his protection to keep people from rushing it. On this occasion, it was already past our time to get off, but we had to go ahead and finish the escort. Johnson didn’t have any good things to say about motor jockeys, and he told his driver to force Gray back to the side of his car, which he did. He forced Gray into the curb on a bridge on Zang and nearly caused him to wreck. I had some words with his driver, so I guess that’s why I knew Johnson pretty well. Anyway, I didn’t see much of the President other than he was just slumped down and that he had been shot, and that his brains had been blown out. I must have seen that somewhere along the way. I know they kept wanting to know whether Kennedy was going to make his speech at the Market Hall, and finally this three-wheel officer came on and told them that his brains were blown out, and he wasn’t going to be there, and this kept coming over the radio: “Well, is he going to be able to make the speech?” We knew that he was dead. We stayed out at Parkland for a long time, and then they sent us downtown to guard Oswald. We were on the third floor where they had him. There were quite a few of us up there and, of course, there were newspaper reporters and cameramen from all over. The scene up there was wild! Absolutely wild! Forcefully, you had to keep them back. It was hysteria! Just asking them to stay back wouldn’t do. They weren’t responding! I can remember the cameras back then had big battery packs that looked like they weighted eighty or ninety pounds. I imagine they probably weighed a lot less than that, but they were big things, and their TV cameras were monstrous. Anyway, I can remember this guy that must have weighed over four hundred pounds who wouldn’t stay back, and finally, I just had to put my fist into his stomach because I weighed only abut 160. Manners were a thing of the past, or courtesy. You could ask our own people to do something and they would try to cooperate with you. In fact, we knew quite a few of them personally. But the national people, a lot of them just didn’t want to do what you asked them to do. They decided that they knew how close they could get a lot better than you did. But there was such a rush and, I guess, everybody wanted a story. I’ve been involved in escorts for Elvis Presley and the Beatles, and those were wild. But the crowds were young. These were adult people that you expect more out of. I saw Oswald a few times. He was screaming and hollering and all this. He was like a wild man claiming his innocence. I don’t remember what all he was saying, but I think he was talking about conspiracy. They didn’t move him any more than they had to, I’m sure, but they brought him out of Captain Fritz’s office, Homicide Division, and down a private elevator where I think they took him down to the lineups or details. I think I got home around midnight that night as we stayed fairly late till they got some of the photographers out. I was off duty the next day because I had Saturdays and Sundays off then. Fortunately I wasn’t there when Oswald was killed. That was an hellacious mistake! It should never have happened even though I can see how it did happen. To me, that was a lot worse to Dallas than the President being killed. I knew Jack Ruby, and I know that a lot of officers knew him. He owned nightclubs, and if you were in his place you didn’t have to worry about the establishment. If you wanted to arrest somebody, you did not fight the establishment; you only had to worry about the person you were arresting. I had made some arrests up in his places and knew that you didn’t have to worry about him if you were given a hard time by his enticing the crowd of people in his club not to let them arrest this person; in other words, trying to turn the crowd against you. He liked officers. I think he appreciated the job that they did, so I can see how he could have gotten down there and shot Oswald. But I didn’t know him that well and didn’t know that much about him. I’d been in the Vegas Club out on Oak Lawn and the Carousel downtown, but I didn’t drink, so I didn’t go into those type places other than to make arrests or on some police matter. Like I’ve said, City Hall was a mess that weekend, which definitely contributed to what happened to Oswald. Jesse Curry probably was responsible for that, but he had bosses, too, and any chief has a certain amount of politics to play. I’m just speculating, though, because I was just a patrolman. They gave me a job to do and I did it. But City Hall belonged to the public, and I guess they were trying to let the public have as much freedom as they could. Personally, I’d like to have seen the press cleared out, but I do know that you have to let the press know. It would have been a whole lot easier if we could have just stood at the door and not let anybody in and had all the fighting there instead of having this whole hallway full of people pushing and shoving and trying to get room for more. I think the Dallas Police Department handled it about as well as any department would have. Regardless of where it happened, you’re going to have to let the press have access, and then you have to let more in than you really like. But I think Dallas did as well as anybody would have and maybe better than a lot. Looking back, the motorcycle patrolmen were an independent bunch back then. When I went into the Motorcycle Division, you were voted on before you got in. If the other jockeys thought you had an attitude that they thought was going to create problems, you wouldn’t get on motors. That way the people knew you. You had to have a vote of confidence for you to get on. And you had good and bad motor jockeys just like you have in anything else. But it was like a club, and we were real close. I don’t think that closeness prevailed in Radio Patrol. I know we had some jockeys that would kind of brag to the Radio Patrol about how great it was, and I chewed a lot of them out for that because, if you’ve got something good going, if you’re going pretty smooth, don’t rock the boat and brag to somebody else that you’ve got it made a whole lot better than them. But we’re like kinfolks. Some of the new motor jockeys I don’t know, but I still have coffee with some of the older ones today. A couple of asides… Officer J.D. Tippit and I were from the same Red River County up in Northwest Texas. I knew him, but I never worked with him. Tippit was in Radio Patrol, and since I stayed on Radio Patrol only about nine months and then went to Traffic Division, I never worked with him. I went on a three-wheeler then, from there to solo, and I knew a lot of these people because we didn’t have substations back then when I went to work, so we all met at the same place. But you’d just speak to them and that was it. Some of them you knew better than others. Some of us were loudmouths, and some were pretty quiet. Tippit was fairly quiet. When I heard that Tippit had been shot, we had a traffic hit and run investigator named Tippitt, and I thought that’s who it was that got shot. But you just wonder how he got shot because he was a pretty strong guy. I also knew Mary Moorman. She and McBride went to school together, I believe it was. That’s how I met her, and she was down there with another lady named Jean Hill, so I knew them both. Mary took a picture of me sitting on my motorcycle there in front of the Triple Underpass just before Kennedy arrived. Then she took a picture of Kennedy and received a cash settlement for quite a bit of money. I’ve seen her a number of times since then. She gave me the Polaroid picture of me straddling this motorcycle, but I don’t know where it is now. I knew where it was for a long time, and some years ago, somebody wanted to look at it, and now it’s misplaced. I’ve been asked about that picture a number of times, but I just remember it had me being on a motorcycle. It didn’t show anything suspicious that I recall. I didn’t pay that much attention to it since I don’t care much about getting my picture taken. I retired in 1981 after twenty-seven and a half years on the department. When I retired, another man and I had a business selling and repairing lawn mowers, chain saws, garden tractors, and tillers. We sold that business, and now I’m helping raise grandchildren. Bill Lumpkin now works on a part-time basis as a bailiff for the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department and lives with his wife in Mesquite, Texas. END

I have been reviewing William Manchester's Death of A President & noticed something that continually surfaces in descriptions of the military personnel carrying JFK's casket the day of the funeral and before after JFK's body was brought back to Washington, D.C. and after the Bethesda autopsy, and that is the fact that all of the men carrying the casket could barely carry it. Manchester makes note of this several times and also mentions how it shouldn't have been a problem, and yet..... I don't know what to make of it......but anything unusual that hasn't been delved into to, should be made note of...... Also, I wanted to bump this thread since Deep Throat Dave seems to have a possible interconnection to Terri Pike.

Chief Curry confronted George Butler and Butler denied that he was cooperating with Lively, but admitted that he had met Lively.: http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=701950 Thanks for that Tom, it's amazing how the meat of some of this stuff is always beneath the spin......ie Lively/Butler.... I cant help but think that whoever it was that was arrested that day was a real eye opener....Again Thanks

I probably appear to be beating a dead horse, but Walt Brown referenced this document in his book Treachery In Dallas, [Chapter Five: The FBI page 77]; while the document itself seems to suggest the person was linked to San Antonio, the location where the report was made, the fact that he is so similar to the individual described in the 12/4/67 Dallas Morning News, made me want to post this here in case there could be some sort of linkage, as well as the fact that surely there is some way to look into the Piedras Negras stolen automobile indictment...... Warren Commission Hearings Volume XVII Current Section: CE 762 - Document prepared by Special Agent Bouck entitled "Protective Research Cases, November 1961 through November 1963." U.S. Secret Service Protective Research Section, C0-2-33,998 SAN ANTONIO OFFICE DATE OF ORIGIN: November 15, 1963 ORIGIN: Information received telephonically from FBI Headquarters, Washington, D.C. DETAILS: Subject interviewed by FBI on November 14, 1963, and stated he is a member of the Ku Klux Klan; that during his travels throughout the country, his sources have told him that a militant group of the National States Rights Party plans to assassinate the President and other high-level officials. He stated that he does not believe this is planned for the near future but he does believe this attempt will be made. BACKGROUND OF SUBJECT: Subject was arrested on September 30, 1963 near Piedras Negras, Mexico with two other men for stealing three automobiles. Information developed by the FBI indicated that the subject was attempting to make some sort of deal with them for his benefit in the criminal case now pending against him. There was no information developed that would indicate there was any danger to the President in the near future or during his trip to Texas. As of January 27, 1964 subject was still incarcerated pending Federal court action. EVALUATION OF DEGREE OF DANGER: In view of subject’s incarceration, he was considered to be of no danger at this time. ACTION: No further action taken SUBSEQUENT ACTIVITY: None. An FBI report received January 31, 1964, relative their interview in jail. STATUS ON NOV 22, 1963: Subject Incarcerated https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1134&relPageId=592 It is also noteworthy that the document poses some very interesting similarities to the alleged FBI memo as described by William Walter, the one with the eight typos.

Robert, I wish I could do more. Maybe you can answer this question? Why do you suppose the FBI stressed so vehemently that witness Jess Lynch was unreliable because his fingerprint record contradicted two minor records of arrest, many years before, in his youth.... http://www.maryferre...663&relPageId=6 Jess Lynch fingerprint/arrest record and second FBI interview memo 16 July 1964 http://www.maryferre...7&relPageId=174 Lynch denied prior arrests but FBI believes fingerprint records disprove this. ....yet that same FBI canonized this ...this....woman, as some sort of a St. Mary? Do you suppose the G-men located James Eulys Bledsoe, especially given the importance of his former spouse's "testimony," but decided to conceal even his name, based on the bureau's own strict standard of determining who was reliable, at least when it suited Mr. Hoover and the WC's Mr. Rankin? Tom, I think you answered your own question..... but decided to conceal even his name, based on the bureau's own strict standard of determining who was reliable, at least when it suited Mr. Hoover and the WC's Mr. Rankin? Or you could say that any facts that didn't strengthen the official version of events was summarily discarded....I realize your comment may have been a rhetorical question, but I at least wanted to respond........

John, I am always glad to hear from you. You are one of the vets of the Forum, and your presence here is a reminder to me that I have someone who pays attention to what I post. I am sure I could have a better reputation, because of the fact that I sometimes speculate out loud or wonder about something which leaves a bit of egg on my face, but I would rather try and fail than not even try. I received a communication from Gary Mack regarding Fritz's residence at the time of the Kennedy assassination, he told me that mary ferrell and others told him that Fritz resided at the White Plaza before, and at the time of the JFK assassination. I still wonder why L.D. Montgomery said what he did. I am still looking into the murder the night of the assassination. See The public did not know for example that President Kennedy and Officer Tippit were not the only people killed in Dallas on November 22. At 10:40 that evening there was a third murder unrelated to the others. The victim, a thirty-two year-old woman was stabbed to death by her lover. In police language he "picked up a butcher knife and started cutting up on the deceased." She was pronounced dead at Parkland. The Death of a President pg 414, by Manchester, William President Kennedy was assigned Emergency Room 24740 Governor Connally was entered three spaces below at Emergency Room 24743 ibid. page 182 If you can remain dispassionate when reading a book like Manchester's....you can sift through and identify what is important, what is opinion and what are literary devices.... Here is another example of something else, I would be very interested in perusing.... page 42..... On November 15, [1963] the Department of Justice had sent [Kenny] O'Donnell a confidential, comprehensive report on Dallas......

http://www.maryferre...44&relPageId=60 ..."she had no recollection whatsoever of the two Cuban males, and examination of the register of guests failed to refresh her recollection, a record which is voluminous for the period in question 1958, and 1959. In one of these years, Mrs. Cheek said she had assisted and rented to some 365 from the Union Gospel Mission, alone..." http://nl.newsbank.c...ackval=GooglePM March 6, 2006 CHEEK, MARVIN LLOYD, Marvin was a member of First Baptist Church Dallas, Hella Shriners and Free Masons of Texas for over 50 years, passed away March 3, 2006. Survived by sons; Lloyd Cheek and wife Diana, John L. Cheek and wife Marilyn, Douglas W. Cheek and wife Marlene,... I think there is a high probability of this being the SSA record of Bertha Bogle Cheeks.: http://www.maryferre...44&relPageId=57 and http://ssdi.rootsweb...gi-bin/ssdi.cgi VAUGHN, BERTHA C 09 Feb 1920 27 Oct 2001 (V) 81 Last Address of Record: 75125 (Ferris, Ellis, TX) Last benefit: 75141 (Hutchins, Dallas, TX) State Issued By: Texas http://home.sprynet..../tymem-main.htm Submitted by John Wilkins of Oklahoma City, Olkahoma, on August 8, 2008 "I was born at Medical Center Hospital in May 1972 and was raised by my great grandparents. My great grandmother Ela Sheppard owned Flowers by Ela, across from the hospital. She owned the store for over 50 years before she sold it. The shop was where the new Medical Center Hospital building is now. http://www.google.co...iw=1320&bih=655 Southern florist and nurseryman: Volume 69, Issues 43-52 books.google.com1957 - Snippet view Inc., EA Buehring, 910 S. 3rd St. Ph. PR-3-3418. TEN AHA. TEXAS •Kinn Nursery & Florist. JB King, Jr., & Mrs. JB King ... •Flowers by Ela, John B. & Ela Sheppard. 1009 S. Beckham Ave. Ph. 4-7433. •Glcnwood Flower Shop, JR Gullcdgc, ... Earline Robert's grave, in the same Troup, Smith County, TX, cemetery as her parents.: http://www.findagrav...&GRid=28123630 Earline Doke Roberts Davie is most likely Dovie, as in Earline's and Bertha's sister, Dovie Dukes... Robert Howard's post.: http://educationforu...ndpost&p=216404 ...Please read the following: Dallas Morning News, page 3 January 10, 1966 Mrs. Earline Roberts, Oswald's Landlady, Dies "He came running like the dickens and I said to him 'You sure are in a hurry,' but he didn't say anything . . . . just ran in his room got a short tan coat and ran back out." He, was Lee Harvey Oswald and he had just killed the President of the United States. The woman who never got a reply was Mrs. Earlene Roberts, a plumpish, bespectacled widow who ran the rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley where Oswald, living as O. H. Lee, plotted the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963. Sunday, Mrs. Roberts was apparently seized by a heart attack at her home, 212 W. Woodin. She was rushed to Parkland Hospital where she died at 5:15 a.m. Both President Kennedy and Oswald died at the same hospital. Mrs. Roberts, interviewed by the Dallas Morning News just after the assassination, said "He was always in bed by 9:30 or 10:00 p.m." In cleaning his $8-a-week 5 by 12-foot room, Mrs. Roberts had noticed that Oswald was neat, read Westerns ate a lot of fruit and made sandwiches in his room. Mrs Roberts widow of building contractor, Olan Roberts was widely quoted in newspapers and magazines and interviewed numerous times on TV and radio, following the assassination. A native of Tennessee, she moved to Dallas in 1940. Survivors; Four sisters, Mrs. Dovie Dukes, Mrs. Opal Fowler and Mrs Bertha Lyles of Dallas, and Mrs. Ela Sheppard of Tyler and a brother, W. Howard Bogle of Dallas. Funeral Services will be held at 12:30 p.m. Monday in Restland Wildwood Chapel. Burial will be at 3:30 p.m in Rucker Cemetery in Troup, Smith County. According to the FBI, Bertha Bogle Cheek lived briefly in Long Beach, CA in 1958. http://vitals.rootsw...eath/search.cgi BOGLE WILLIE H 09/21/1910 M TENNESSEE LOS ANGELES(19) 03/09/1976 http://ssdi.rootsweb...n2=07&ssn3=2002 BOGLE, WILLIE 21 Sep 1910 Mar 1976 65 90801 (Long Beach, Los Angeles, CA) Robert Howard's post.: http://educationforu...ndpost&p=173699 I've located the 1910 and 1930 US Census records to support the contention that the photos above are the grave markers of the parents of Evalene and Bertha Bogle. They probably moved to Texas just before the 1920 census was taken, because I cannot find a record. In 1910, Earlene, 5 years old, spelled "Earline" and 4 years old Georgia were listed, along with a baby brother named "Davie". Tom, many thanks for posting this. Robert

To me Christopher, this thread's underlying salient area lies in the fact that Earlene Roberts and Bertha Cheek were sisters and adding to the intrigue was Bertha Cheek's pre-assassination meeting with Ruby to buy his club, and Jess Lynch's mention that she rented to 2 Cubans circa 1958, 1959. Allegedly there were Cuban's living in a shack behind 1026 N. Beckley...was that Tosh Plumlee who alleged that? I have seen a lengthy document where Warren Commission attorneys actually consider the possibility, the way I interpreted the document that Oswald was set up for the assassination in a conspiracy, the Lafontaine's seem to put a spin on this memo, making the Cheek/Roberts area part of a conspiracy involving Oswald. see Griffin Hubert memo to Rankin March 6, 1964 summary of this memo's salient points is reproduced in Oswald Talked footnote # 68, page 421. Also from Oswald Talked "Contacted by Mary [LaFontaine] in 1993, Bertha's daughter said that her mother was still living...she wouldn't give her mother's present name or whereabouts." "Ten years later, Lawrence Reginald Miller [Terrell Armory weapons theft] would die at 5917 Gaston, at age forty-three. Records show the cause of death as a heart attack brought on by acute alcohol intoxication. It isn't clear whether Bertha still owned the apartment building when Miller died. page 212. At any rate, there are two things that I am going to post here, I hope they both get attention. First, a few days ago, I discovered something rather odd, regarding Police Captain Will Fritz No More Silence page 416 interview with L.D. Montgomery. The following day, Monday, we successfully transferred Ruby to the county jail the way the other should have been handled: unannounced. Captain Fritz made the decision. Captain Fritz at that time was living in an apartment out on Gaston Avenue. Robert: when Fritz testified before the WC he simply said I live in Dallas, he was not asked his address see Mr. Mccloy. And we have had Chief Curry on this morning, as I am sure you understand, and we would like to continue our investigation through you. We understand that you were in very direct contact with this problem of investigation, and I will ask you to stand and raise your right hand, sir. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. Fritz. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please? Mr. Fritz. J. W. Fritz. Mr. Ball. Where do you live? Mr. Fritz. I live in Dallas. Mr. Ball. Could you tell us something about yourself; tell us where you were born and what your education is and what your training has been as a police officer? Mr. Fritz. I was born in Dublin, Tex., and lived there for several years. My father moved to New Mexico, and I grew up at Lake Arthur, N. Mex. And then I came back to Texas, and came to the police department in January of 1921, and have been there ever since. Robert If you will remember Bertha Cheek managed some properties from her Hillcrest Avenue address; when she testified before the WC she ostensibly had or was going to turn over the list to the WC. As far as I know the contents of the list have never seen the light of day in a JFK document. I have never seen an obit Bertha Cheek in Oswald Talked, Mary and Ray LaFontaine, if I am not mistaken made some reference to her..... Bertha Cheek....she is well known to anyone who follows the Forum, her meeting with Jack Ruby eventually brought her to testify before the Warren Commission and her records of her properties, especially those on Gaston Avenue, gave me a very, in retrospect overly optimistic attitude that "sooner or later" the reference "in 1958 or 1959 there were a couple of Cubans residing in one of her properties she rented on Gaston Avenue," would turn up by virtue of my digging through various news databases, and/or some obscure Warren Commission document. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened. It would be wise to know, that Harry Olson did rent from Bertha Cheek Washington Post, The (DC) - April 21, 1984 Deceased Name: John Will Fritz , 87, the former head of the Dallas John Will Fritz, 87, the former head of the Dallas Police Department's homicide and robbery bureau who led the investigation of President John F. Kennedy's assassination, died April 19 at his home here. The cause of death was not reported. Mr. Fritz conducted the interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald, the accused assassin of the president. Oswald was shot to death by Dallas nightclub owner Jack Ruby. In 1974, a letter was addressed to Captain Fritz after his 1970 retirement from John Nichols to Will Fritz of 1 Oct 1974, with Attachments The address was simply White Plaza Hotel, Dallas, Texas The 1963 address for the White Plaza Hotel was 1933 Main Street http://www.maryferre...110&relPageId=1 [W.H. Andy] Anderson to Manage White-Plaza Hotel; Paper: Dallas Morning News; Date: 05-26-1946; Page: Page Eighteen; Location: Dallas, Texas White-Plaza Purchased by Earlee Hotels Paper: Dallas Morning News; Date: 08-15-1961; Page: 5; Location: Dallas, Texas Opened in 1926 and formerly named the Hilton Hotel, the White-Plaza was built by the late George Loudermilk and operated by Conrad N. Hilton until 1939 when the name was changed from the Hilton to the White-Plaza Hotel. Here is the link for Bertha Cheek's WC Testimony where she mentions the specific properties on Gaston she managed. http://www.jfk-assas...l13/page382.php So, the point is why would it be such a secret where Capt. J W Fritz lived, and does the Gaston Avenue address, and, if correct, factor into Bertha Cheek's properties? Realistically being a high ranking homicide investigator for decades in Dallas, would make one a lot of enemies, so it can't be assumed that there is necessarily anything sinister about not including his address. But in light of the fact that, as far as I know Bertha Cheek's rental history for her properties, especially on Gaston Ave.,has never really been gone over by anyone other than Warren Commission investigators, and I have spent a few days trying to find one single book, article or document that references his Gaston Ave. address it would be foolish to forget about it. Of course, there is the possibility that there is just the appearance of smoke and no fire, but you know what they say about assuming..... Item 2 There was, according to William Manchester, three murders in Dallas on November 22, 1963... 1. President John F. Kennedy.....assigned the emergency room 24740, at Parkland Hospital. 2. Officer Jefferson Davis Tippit, body taken to Methodist Hospital AND Parkland Hospital http://www.maryferre...bsPageId=388489 3. Unknown. The public did not know for example that President Kennedy and Officer Tippit were not the only people killed in Dallas on November 22. At 10:40 that evening there was a third murder unrelated to the others. The victim, a thirty-two year-old woman was stabbed to death by her lover. In police language he "picked up a butcher knife and started cutting up on the deceased." She was pronounced dead at Parkland. The Death of a President pg 414, by Manchester, William (1967) Robert: As far as know, regarding Item 2, I have never seen a single reference to the third murder from any other source. Not only that, the Dallas Morning News, didn't seem to cover this story.....Some might say, well, Manchester wrote, it was unrelated to the others. My response would be twofold; 1. Manchester also was totally convinced that Oswald was the quintessential lone nut, and a total failure, as a person, not to mention the assassin of President Kennedy. While that might seem cause for endorsement that the murder was unrelated to the others, the exact opposite is at least, a possibility. 2. I can't speak for anybody else, but I am literally embarrassed that almost 50 years after the assassination, no-one has looked into this. Ask a criminal investigator if a third murder on November 22, 1963 could be important, and see what his response would be.....

Ron, that aspect of the motorcade procession, if I am not mistaken was related to the "Dead Secret Service Agent" affair, according to material published in the Continuing Inquiry/Penn Jones, the allegation was that somewhere in the middle of downtown someone tried to approach the motorcade, saying "I must tell you," or, words to that effect. If this really happened, it is one of the best kept secrets of the assassination. As much as I respect Penn Jones, I think he was fed bogus information, although I could never prove it. Remember, Jack Zangetty? I spent a lot of time looking into that and I decided it was one of biggest waste's of time I ever embarked upon. Having said all of that, there are definitely a lot of mysteries associated with the assassination, yet to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. For instance the "vanishing pool of blood" near the TSBD, recently I read something somewhere, where now it is being alleged there were "two" pools of blood.... I can't go into that sort of thing as a researcher, because you have so many people who you can't decide, or at least I can't, who allege things [outside of deposition testimony] decades later, there is nothing in that which can be satisfactorily resolved, IMO. There are, hopefully elements of truth in certain allegations which can be proven, Roger Craig, who, incidentally received a lot of emotional support from Penn Jones, before Craig committed suicide, alleged that he was instructed to "take no part whatsoever in the security of that motorcade." see When They Kill A President In my view a factoid like that is hard to definitively prove, especially if you believe that false testimony exists in the voluminous documents that exist, WC, HSCA et cetera. But, William Manchester in Death of A President, pages 32-33 wrote ......Conceivably the FBI and the Secret Service did do all that could have been done. Possibly Curry's department met its responsibilities by deciding to end supervision of Friday's crowd at Houston and Main, a block short of the ambush....... Even that stipulation is something of a conundrum, by virtue of the word supervision, which implies no responsibility, also Craig was in the Sheriff's Department, not the Police Department per se....... One more or less overlooked area of the assassination is the situation described by Geneva Hines as below..... Mr. Ball. On the 22nd of November 1963, did you know that there was to be a motorcade or parade come by your building? Miss HINE. Oh, yes, sir. Mr. Ball. How did 'you find that out? Miss HINE. Sir, I don't remember. I probably heard over the news but I cannot remember. Mr. Ball. You were just aware of the fact? Miss HINE. Yes; I knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that morning. Many of them, probably six, had not seen the President close. You see, I had seen him on two different occasions and I had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they couldn't go out so I spoke up and said "I will be glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and I bad previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and I thought nothing about it. Mr. Ball. Did they all go out? Miss HINE. Yes, sir; everyone went out. Mr. BALL. Was there anyone left in the office part of the building on that second floor office? Miss HINE. Only Mr. Williams and myself and he stayed with me because he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was about there. Mr. Ball. Then he went out? Miss HINE. When he thought it was about there he said "I think I will go out for 5 minutes." Mr. Ball. What is his name? Miss HINE. Otis N. Williams. Mr. Ball. He works in the office, too? Miss HINE. Yes. Mr. Ball. Did you have to change your desk over to another desk? Miss HINE. Yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row. Mr. Ball. Was there a switchboard? Miss HINE. No, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system. Mr. Ball. You don't have a switchboard? Miss HINE. Not now; we did in the other building. Mr. Ball. Were you alone then at this time? Miss HINE. Yes. Mr. Ball. Did you stay at your desk? Miss HINE. Yes, sir: I was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so I got up and thought I could see it from the east window in our office. Mr. Ball. Did you go to the window? Miss HINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Did you look out? Miss HINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. What did you see? Miss HINE. I saw the escort car come first up the middle of Houston Street. Mr. Ball. Going north on Houston Street? Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots. Mr. Ball. How many did you hear? Miss HINE. Three. Mr. Ball. Could you tell where the shots were coming from? Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building. Mr. Ball. How do you know that? Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in. Mr. Ball. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building? Mr. Ball. Miss HINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. Did you know they were shots at the time? Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific. Mr. Ball. That is when you were at the window, is that right? Miss HINE Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk. Mr. Ball. That was on Houston Street? Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm. Mr. Ball. You could see could you see any part of Elm? Miss HINE. East, yes, sir. Mr. Ball. You could see east on Elm? Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer. Mr. Ball. You mean the front door to the office? Miss HINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. That opens on--- Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and--- Mr. Ball. Steps lead down? Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company. Mr. Ball. What did you do then? Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Me, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out. Mr. Ball. On to Elm? Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass. Mr. Ball. I See. Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door. Mr. Ball. Was the door locked? Miss HINE. Yes, sir. Mr. Ball. That was which company? Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co. Mr. Ball. Did you call to her? Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door. Mr. Ball. Of your office, the second floor office? Miss HINE. Yes; and I went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in. Mr. Ball. Did they come in rapidly? Miss HINE They did come in rapidly. Mr. Ball. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid? Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then. From WC Documents it is hard to determine who this was, but John Armstrong asserts it is Mrs. [John L.] Carol Hughes... Reid is seemingly eliminated because she testified to Oswald drinking a Coke, and she was a TSBD supervisor, to boot.... below is Carol Hughes affidavit Mrs. John L. "Carol" Hughes, I, Mrs. John L. [Carol] Hughes make the following voluntary statement to Alfred D. Neely who has identified himself as a Special Agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I am of the Caucasian race, 27 years of age and reside at 510 Glenfield Street, Garland, Texas. I am employed by the South-Western Publishing Co., Room 203 Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, Dallas, Texas. On November 22, 1963, I went to south window near my desk to watch the Presidential Motorcade passing along at Houston and Elm Streets. I was standing looking out this window when President John F. Kennedy was shot. I was alone in the office as all the other people had gone to the street to watch the Motorcade pass. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time. I do not know Oswald but I had seen him in the building several times prior to this day. I do not recall seeing any strangers in the building on November 22, 1963. I remained in my office until about 1:30 P.M. when I left for the day and went home. Room 203 is listed in a JFK Document as, apparently shared between Gloria Calvery Karan Hicks Carol Hughes Carol Reed Karen Westbrook see CD 707 It should come as no surprise, she wasn't called to testify before the Warren Commission, let alone being confronted about Geneva Hines allegations, other than whats in her affidavit..... I have been considering the possibility if she could have been the female, with the Dallas policeman who is seen in the film walking away from Dealey Plaza, as practically everyone else is running towards the Depository area and the knoll area, although it seems doubtful, on the other hand just because, she said she left at 1:30, doesen't automatically prove that is when she did leave, as Richard Gilbride's book seems to demolish some "factual" testimony about who was doing what in the period before and after the assassination.....

.....I searched the HSCA Final Report Section 65.6, as mentioned above and did not find any reference to Lind or Kertz....... The link Robert provided did not work for me. Try google books, but unless you have the Lind interview, all you are going to see is what I already posted. I transcribed my copy from a newspaper article, and the link I provided never implied it was the page where it could be found. If you read what I wrote, it says the NARA SEARCH Results....... page 235, Who's who in the JFK assassination: an A-to-Z encyclopedia By Michael Benson the references to Charlie Kertz, are in HSCA Report 65:6 and if your able the New Orleans Time Picayune the August Lind 1991 interview of Charlie Kertz BTW Greg, I wasn't trying to be a comedian, I sort of understood what you were stating, but I couldn't quite figure it all out until your last post. I would hope that in all the time we've known each other, you would realize the last thing I would do is ridicule your research, I have no doubt you are right. Your initial post was just a little too ambiguous for me, I just needed a little background....

I agree, Robert, it's a shame that such great and interesting leads don't seem to be enough to generate the interest they should...Do be aware, however, that there are those of us who appreciate the hard work you and many others here DO put in... I've been away from the forum for a while, but when I come back, there are always certain tireless posters whose work I continue to read and be very impressed by...if I don't reply, its for the same reasons Mark pointed out...speaking for myself, in fact, I can feel intimidated by the wealth of knowledge shown here.... Well Steve, your comments are appreciated, and it works both ways, I know you do some very important JFK related stuff, and I guess we both know how the Forum can be a blessing and a curse. On the good part, any detailed analysis of the Kennedy Assassination that doesn't jibe with the Might Wurlitzer's of our time and the official mouthpieces of the Oswald did it school, Gerald Posner, Vincent Bugliosi, Hugh Aynesworth, always references posts on the Education Forum, on the bad side, any Joe Schmo nowadays, we used to call them trolls can come on the Forum and claim anything about the assassination, short of aliens killed JFK, without even providing any type of documentation, except citing an erroneous passage on Spartacus Schoolnet, and have an instant readership, as boxing promoter Don King once said, "Only In America." So, I decided a while back I would never personally be part of any group or persons associated with the Forum, whose Modus Operandi included extensive use of positing that the Hidden Hand of the assassination, could be lumped up as a group, whether it is LBJ, British internationalists, the Mob, Oswald alone or any other group in which, for the most part the word "they," could be substituted. Our elections may be determined by a "People Magazine," mentality, ie "he seems like a very nice man" versus "these are his qualifications and worldview for making America great again," but I damn well will do everything possible to ridicule and eviscerate the Revisionist History, that Jesus was a Republican, that our founding fathers all attended Sunday School and would have been evangelical Protestant's were they alive today. Having said all of that, I believe Richard Bartholomew's Possible Discovery of an Automobile.......as well as it stands up today as a JFK Research piece, left unmentioned a significant piece of information..... Before I posted this, I knew it would be misconstrued by the Mighty Wurlitzer's as "now they're even dragging him into the assassination of JFK," when that is not my point at all, but if you look at it from my point of view, if no one would ever know it, don't you think it demands to be made part of the record. George Romney Dies at 88; A Leading G.O.P. Figure By DAVID E. ROSENBAUM Published: July 27, 1995 George W. Romney, an automobile executive who became a three-term Governor of Michigan, a Republican Presidential candidate and a member of the Nixon Cabinet, died yesterday at his home in Bloomfield Hills, Mich., a Detroit suburb. He was 88. His wife, Lenore, whom he married in 1931, found him collapsed yesterday morning on the treadmill in the exercise room of their home, their son G. Scott Romney said. The office of the Oakland County Medical Examiner issued a statement saying only that Mr. Romney had died of natural causes. Mr. Romney was chairman and president of the American Motors Corporation when he resigned in 1962 to run, successfully, for Governor. He ran for the Republican Presidential nomination in 1968 but dropped out of the race just before the New Hampshire primary. He then served as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development in President Richard M. Nixon's first term. Mr. Romney represented the liberal wing of the Republican Party, supporting civil rights initiatives and Government social programs and opposing the war in Vietnam. His politics proved successful in Michigan, where he was elected Governor three times, by increasingly large margins. But as a politician on the national stage, he seemed wooden. He was ridiculed because of a remark in 1967 that he had originally supported the war in Vietnam because he had been "brainwashed" by generals and diplomats during a visit there in 1965. As Housing Secretary, he was outside President Nixon's inner circle and was relegated to pleading in vain for an expansion of urban and other domestic programs. Mr. Romney resigned after Mr. Nixon was re-elected in 1972 and essentially retired from public life. But he re-emerged last year to campaign actively for his other son, Mitt, who ran for the Senate in Massachusetts and lost to the incumbent, Edward M. Kennedy. George Wilcken Romney was born in 1907 in a Mormon colony in Chihuahua, Mexico. His parents were American citizens and monogamists, but they had moved to Mexico along with many other Mormons when Congress outlawed polygamy in the 1880's. His parents moved back to the United States when he was a child, and he was reared in Idaho and Utah. He served two years as a Mormon missionary in England and Scotland. He also attended several colleges but never graduated. As a young man, Mr. Romney worked in Washington as a speechwriter for a Democratic Senator from Massachusetts, David T. Walsh. He then became a Washington lobbyist for the aluminum industry and an official of the Automobile Manufacturers Association. In 1948, he joined the Nash-Kelvinator Corporation. Six years later, Nash-Kelvinator merged with the Hudson Motor Car Company to create American Motors, and Mr. Romney became president of the company. He managed to rescue American Motors from near collapse with a successful promotion of the company's Rambler as a midget mightier than Detroit's "gas-guzzling dinosaurs." He also became engaged in civic affairs, heading a citizens' committee for Detroit's schools and organizing a political group, Citizens for Michigan, to study Detroit's problems. In 1962, after weeks of agonizing and a 24-hour prayerful fast, Mr. Romney resigned from American Motors to run for Governor against the Democratic incumbent, John B. Swainson. With an appeal to labor unions unusual for a Republican, Mr. Romney won by 78,000 votes and became the first Republican Governor of Michigan in 14 years. He was re-elected in 1964 and 1966. In 1967, he became the first announced candidate for the 1968 Republican Presidential nomination. In the early campaigning in New Hampshire, Mr. Romney was a front-runner. But as the weeks went by, he was increasingly dogged by his remark about having been brainwashed. The perception grew, fairly or not, that he was a witless candidate with his foot in his mouth. Mr. Romney always maintained that his real problem had been that there was not room for both him and Gov. Nelson A. Rockefeller of New York as candidates to the left of Mr. Nixon. But Mr. Rockefeller did not enter the race in earnest until the Romney candidacy had faltered. As Housing Secretary, Mr. Romney tried to expand public housing and move some of it into the suburbs. He did increase somewhat the amount of federally subsidized housing, but others in the Administration blocked his efforts to place it in suburbs. In retirement, Mr. Romney remained physically active, walking several miles a day and playing golf. In addition to his wife and two sons, he is survived by two daughters, Lynn Keenan and Jane Romney; 23 grandchildren, and 33 great-grandchildren. http://www.nytimes.com/1995/07/27/obituaries/george-romney-dies-at-88-a-leading-gop-figure.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm More regarding the evolution of Nash-Kelvinator Mitt Romney As managing director of the Automobile Manufacturers Association, Romney became good friends with then-president George W. Mason. When Mason became chairman of the manufacturing firm Nash-Kelvinator in 1948, he invited Romney along "to learn the business from the ground up" as his roving assistant. As Mason's protégé, Romney assumed executive assignment for the development of the Rambler. Mason had long sought a merger of Nash-Kelvinator with one or more other companies, and on May 1, 1954, it merged with Hudson Motor Car to become the American Motors Corporation. It was the largest merger in the history of the industry, and Romney became an executive vice president of the new firm. In October 1954, Mason suddenly died of acute pancreatitis and pneumonia. Romney was named AMC's Chairman and CEO. When Romney took over, he reorganized upper management, brought in younger executives, and pruned and rebuilt AMC's dealer network. Romney believed that the only way to compete with the "Big Three" (General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler) was to stake the future of AMC on a new small car line.Together with chief engineer Meade Moore, by the end of 1957 Romney had completely phased out the Nash and Hudson brands whose sales had been lagging.The Rambler brand was selected for development and promotion, as AMC pursued an innovative strategy: manufacturing only compact cars. The company struggled badly at first, losing money in 1956, more in 1957, and experiencing defections from its dealer network. Romney instituted company-wide savings and efficiency measures and he and other executives reduced their salaries by up to 35 percent. AMC was on the verge of being taken over by corporate raider Louis Wolfson, but Romney was able to fend him off. Then sales of the Rambler finally took off, leading to unexpected financial success for AMC. It posted its first quarterly profit in three years in 1958, was the only car company to show increased sales during the recession of 1958, and moved from thirteenth to seventh place among worldwide auto manufacturers. In contrast with the Hudson's NASCAR racing success in the early 1950s, the Ramblers were frequent winners in the coast-to-coast Mobil Economy Run, an annual event on U.S. highways. Sales remained strong during 1960 and 1961, with the Rambler being America's third most popular car during both years. In 1963, Motor Trend magazine named the Nash Rambler as its car of the year, and the day of President Kennedy’s assassination a Nash Rambler figured prominently in the story of the events surrounding Oswald’s exit from the Texas School Book Depository, although that fact is never mentioned by mainstream news retrospectives of the assassination.....As Don King only said "Only in America." I am not inferring anything about the late George Romney, but I do find his life to have had some weird associations, but a member of a family of Mormon missionaries from Mexico, [reminds me of the Mormon Church next to where the phony assassination attempt on General Edwin Walker took place], and the fact that he was the candidate that JFK took very seriously, as opposed to Barry Goldwater, and then the Rambler thing, and this is not some doppelganger with the same name. So I guess this is all sort of the JFK assassination meets Ripley's Believe It or Not..... Cheers

http://www.people.co...0077070,00.html So what's the problem? Apart from they got everything wrong about him in order to make the dyslexic claim - nothing it all. Impulsive? He impulsively went to Russia... after 2 years in the planning Inability to stick to a task... as demonstrated by memorizing the Marine manual back to front and the favorable report given to the WC about his work in the radar unit. Not to mention that even Roy Truly seemed to like his work ethic... erratic behavior.... in some couples it's called trying to make ends meet... and the stress that puts on relationships. Or maybe what's being referenced is threatening to go and blow Nixon's head off (insert insane laughter) or waving a gun around in a foreign embassy in a foreign country... (and everyone knows that was Oswald... <wink, wink>) Well, that all sounds like a solid case for dyslexia doesn't it? Hell, Based on that, he HAD to have it, surely? The REALLY insane idea is that he had a condition which experts say can be mistaken for a condition that he was actually diagnosed as having. What was I thinking? I will go back on my meds, I promise. Then I will drink the Kool Aid. Lee and/or Harvey had Dyslexia,Lee and/or Harvey had Dyslexia, Lee and/or Harvey had Dyslexia, Lee and/or Harvey had Dyslexia, Lee and/or Harvey had Dyslexia, Ommmmmmmm ----------------------- On another front, anyone going to step up and tell me who had Ottis Media -- Lee or "Harvey"? Ok. I'm done. Where's my cup? Does it come in just Lime? Well, I certainly get your point, but are you referring to Otitis media with effusion, or serous or secretory otitis media. lol

Thanks Mark, I can be a little obsessive at times, and I guess it is unfair to expect a lot of fellow OCD'ers to miraculously appear. lol Hi Robert FWIW. Your posts fascinate me. The detail you manage to pull out of the documented record is nothing short of amazing. The problem I am faced with regarding your posts is that you generally steer clear of putting your own frame of reference on them. You regularly post a massive amount of detail but don't pull it together into a cohesive "and here's what I think this means" narrative. There are pros and cons to this, IMO. I hope what I have just said there comes across in the right way because I say it with the best of intentions but I prefer it when Robert Howard comes out fighting (like on this thread) to the beat of his own convictions concerning what he thinks is right and wrong within his own understanding of the assassination plot, and we don't see that very often. Here's the gauge for me. If someone was to ask me what Bill Kelly overarching high level view was concerning the assassination I could probably hit the sweet spot. The same with Jim DiEu, Greg Parker, etc, etc. If someone was to ask me what Robert Howard's high-level view was, I don't think I would be able to give an answer. Now I don't know whether that's because I haven't followed your posts since you became a member or whether it is simply part of your style. But I would be very interested to know what all this information means to you within some sort of Robert Howard narrative. I think it would blow mine, and many other members, socks off. The Kathy Kay/Harry Olsen stuff is a key part of the post-assassination shenanigans IMO and to know that they spent hours with Jack Ruby on the night of the 22nd is a massive alarm, as is Olsen's sham moonlighting job after taking the day off work with a dodgy leg that he could never prove. You are a researcher of the highest calibre, and I wish I had the time to pursue and look further into the type of work that you and Tom Scully put together but the harsh reality is that my time is short and I'm off looking into my own things when I do get a spare half hour. Best regards Lee Lee, I never saw this post you made until a few minutes ago, and I had come on to let everyone who saw my comments, [it may not be on this thread] about putting together everything I have on the Nash Rambler's in one cohesive post, is behind schedule, I had intended to have it posted by Sunday at the latest. To be honest, I have been battling a sinus infection, and haven't exactly in a position to do so. But it is coming soon. As to your comments Lee, I am very flattered, and I know what you are talking about when you say that you don't know what my position is on the dynamics of the assassination, who, what when where why. I used to approach the issue that until every question that is still unresolved is settled, I wouldn't have a position, but after all these years, I have definitely come to some conclusions. Some would be surprising, some would fit in rather well, with predominating views here on the forum re certain persons. For instance I do not believe the Lee Oswald who was born in 1939 was guilty of anything on the day of the assassination, I don't believe he shot Tippit, and I definitively do not believe he killed Kennedy. Going a step further, I believe Jack Ruby was guilty of involvement in the assassination, and I am not just talking about silencing Oswald, whereas I believe there are strong possibilities Oswald was trying to prevent the assassination. Those are not exactly mainstream views, but I would just add that looking extensively through the microfiche files of the JFK assassination, something completely separate from NARA, I have seen some documents that basically very few people have seen, insofar as within the "research community. John Armstrong had access to the same documents, besides a lot of other material, when he was working on Harvey & Lee. At some point I will present my views, when it gets to the end of my road. Robert

I tried to upload the document that Francesca was trying to upload, and it didn't work out. But it is at...... http://www.desclasificados.com.ar/index.php?ref=http://www.desclasificados.com.ar/i.php?i=4601&num=2

That is a very salient post Bill. There is also something very compelling about the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, and there is a book, which a fairly good chunk of is in google books, which details the history of the Presidio of Monterey It is entitled: Images of America Series Presidio of Monterey by Harold E. Raugh, Jr. http://books.google....epage&q&f=false This book reveals the Presidio was called the Army Language Center from 1947-1963, and in 1963 before the year was out, the name was changed to the Defense Language Institute. What I wanted to pointed out is related for those who believe the plotters of the JFK assassination had connections with cryptology and/or, oversaw cryptology operations, such as say, an individual who would be in charge of sending William F. Friedman, the godfather of American cryptology on a NSA mission to Europe regarding NATO and codebreaking, John B. Hurt is a name worth mentioning. On page 8 Raugh writes, "In 1940 the Presidio became the temporary headquarters of the III Corps and served as a reception center until 1944. Declared inactive in late 1944, the Presidio was reopened in 1945 and served as a Civil Affairs Staging and Holding Area (CASA) for civil affairs soldiers preparing for the occupation of Japan. On November 1, 1941 the Army established the Fourth U.S. Army Intelligence School at the Presidio of San Francisco to teach the Japanese language to Japanese-American (Nisei) soldiers in a possible conflict with Japan. War broke out in December 1941 and in 1942 the school was relocated to Minnesota and renamed the Military Intelligence Service Language School (MISLS) On page 119 mention is made of Rasmussen Hall in honor of Col Kai E. Rasmussen who served as MISLS commandant from 1942 to 1946. In the photograph pictured the plaque honoring Rasmussen reads: Rasmussen Hall Dedicated to the memory of Colonel Kai Eduard Rasmussen 1902- 1988 Rasmussen was the first commandant of the Military Intelligence Service Language School [MISLS], predecessor to the Defense Language Institute. Born in 1902 in Helsinge, Denmark, he emigrated to the United States in 1922 and enlisted in the United States Army. He graduated from the United States Military Academy in 1929 as a coast artillery officer and from 1936 to 1940 he served as a military attache in Imperial Japan. In 1941 Captain Rasmussen and Major John Eckerling established the Secret Japanese Language School at the Presidio of San Francisco with sixty-six students. When war broke out he rose to the rank of Colonel and headed MISLS as it moved to Camp Savage (1942-44) and later Fort Snelling, (1944-1946) Minnesota, until it came to the Presidio of Monterey in 1946. The school's 6,000 graduates served throughout the Pacific Theater during the war and the occupation of Japan that followed. He earned the devotion of his predominantly Japanese-American students and staff by placing great faith in their loyalty and abilities and was awarded the Legion of Merit for his dedicated leadership.He subsequently served as military attache to Norway and on General MacArthur's intelligence staff during the Korean War before his retirement in 1955. I think the aforementioned probably does not seem very important to some, but when you consider the background of the Warren Commission's John J McCloy, instrumental in the relocation of the Nisei after Pearl Harbor, Colonel Charles Willoughby served in MacArthur's Intellligence Bureau, as did Rasmussen, and in World War II there was some cryptological associations between the SIS team under Friedman with MacArthur's G-2 in Australia, not to mention JFK being in ONI in Washington before the Arvad affair resulted in his transfer to the South Pacific and the PT-109 collision with the Japanese destroyer, it might come in handy to know of the association.

Well, I suppose the salient points have been made and to be honest, very good points have been made by Bill and Greg and Jim that still raise the possibility that the Russian language issue in and of itself, does not definitively prove there were two different Oswald's, my fault, if you want to call it that is that the ultimate two Oswald's scenario are the ten minutes after the assassination at the Texas School Book Depository, it seems rather definitive that the Oswald who worked at the TSBD walked out after the assassination at 12:31, and then at 12:40 another "Oswald," who according to Roger Craig was the same Oswald he later in the Dallas Police office, who confusingly enough, was the Oswald who left the TSBD at 12:31. At least that is my view. The Oswald who left in the Rambler with a Cuban turned up in the Oak Cliff area and ostensibly tried to use a pay phone in a washateria, and the Rambler was apparently abandoned, although I have never read anything about what happened to that Rambler. A good question would be why wasn't there any attention given to that Rambler after the assassination. Why wasn't there an FBI Report regarding it's disposition after the assassination, why wasn't it given a WC Exhibit Number? My guess would be for the same reason it took a couple of decades to ascertain that Roger Craig was telling the truth about being in Fritz's office and that Fritz lied about it ..a case of getting a little too close to getting to the bottom of the case I would surmise. See In Defense of Roger Craig http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/01st_Issue/rcraig.html I have been working on several aspects of the Rambler area and later this weekend I am going to update the Rambler thread......Irrespective of the Russian language conundrum, ultimately I believe the events of November 22, 1963 at the scene of the crime, may resolve, or at least give a more illuminated view of what was really happening. To those who say, we know what happened, I say, there were and are significant questions still unresolved. I will have a couple of surprises in the upcoming post, the factual kind, but I still have a couple of things to transcribe.

Alaric Rosman's article on Rosaleen Quinn, [Rosaleen Quinn, A Clue to The Assassination] is required reading, and in my estimation, definitively establishes there were two Oswald's, independently of John Armstrong's work. Robert

Hi Jim, Well said above. Without going too far off topic, I was wondering what you think are the best sources for researching the origins of the Defense Intelligence Agency [DIA] and their founding director, General Joseph Carroll? I find it a little surprising that there is not much said about the DIA during the Kennedy years on this forum and elsewhere. Thanks, Zach I have found the following to be as revealing a look at the DIA as one will find, also The Invisible Government as old a book as it is, is also fairly indispensable google books results http://www.google.com/search?q=Defense+Intelligence+Agency&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1 Church Committee: Book I - Foreign and Military Intelligence XV. Department of Defense http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=148527 below is particularly good page 159-160 The Spy Book: The Encyclopedia of Espionage The man who knew too much - Page 142 books.google.comDick Russell - 2003 - 588 pages Dulles would later write of the possibility "that two such powerful and well- financed agencies as CIA and DIA will become rivals and competitors ... It was William Quinn who set up James Angleton as his man in Italy after World War II. ... First DIA head after creation during JFK Administration CARROLL, JOSEPH FRANCIS, LT. GEN. Sources: 1969 Who's Who in America; Brink: Cuban Crisis, Detzer (95); CIA: Myth & Madness, McGarvey (141, 143); Cold Warrior, Tom Mangold (391); Deep Black, Burrows (110); Farewell America, Hepburn (321); Hidden Terrors, Langguth (107); Invisible Government, Wise & Ross (215); JFK, Prouty (228); JFK and Vietnam, J. Newman (280-281, 466); Keeper of the Keys, Prados (204); The Pentagon, Mollenhoff (116); Puzzle Palace, Bamford (190); Widows, Corson & Trento (203); Who's Who in CIA, Mader. Mary's Comments: DOB: Mar 19, 1910. POB: Chicago, Ill. Son of James Michael and Sara (Kane) Carroll. Married Mary Ann Morrissey, Aug 21, 1937. Children: Joseph Francis, James Michael, Brian Patrick, Dennis Thomas, Kevin Martin. Admitted to Illinois bar 1940. Spl. agt. various field offices FBI 1940-44. Chief of general criminal sect. Washington, asst. div. chief. gen investigations dir. 1944-45. Dir. compliance enforcement div. Surplus Property Administn. and War Assets Administrn., 45-47. insp. in charge of fraud and accounting matters, FBI, May-Dec. 1947. Commd. col., USAF. Re. Jan. 1948. Brig. Gen. U.S. Air Force, Feb. 1948. Called to active duty, May 1948, now Maj. Gen. Dir. Of. of Spl. Investigations, The Insp. Gen., USAF, 1948-50. Dep. Insp. Gen. for security, 1950-59. Dep. comdr. USAFE, (REAR), 1958-60. Lt. Gen. & Dir. of Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), 1966. Recipient Chief Justice White Scholarship award, Loyola Univ. Law Sch., 1940. Legion of Merit, 1949, D.S.M. Mem. Ill. Bar Assn. Roman Catholic.

Thanks Mark, I can be a little obsessive at times, and I guess it is unfair to expect a lot of fellow OCD'ers to miraculously appear. lol

Karl, I appreciate the clarification. God knows some of these topics and subtopics can be a little maddening in all the details. I am really glad you went to the trouble regarding expounding on the two Ramblers, and hope you didn't take offense as, I only wanted to know more..... I will do what I can to find out more about this... Well, irrespective of the Rambler issue, one interesting factoid has emerged, or remembered is a better word... is from the 1996 update to Possible Discovery....... In a development that brings further importance to that Rambler's similarities to Wing's, we have confirmed that C.B. Smith's first wife, Fronia Ellen S. Smith, the mother of C.B. Smith Jr.,[ the sales manager at the time of the April 1963 Rambler sale to George Wing], was working in the third floor, TSBD office of Macmillan Publishing Co., at the time of the assassination.... Maybe this will generate someone's interest besides myself regarding Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes See my post # 16 if one believes it is of possible relevance re the TSBD. http://educationforu...pic=15323&st=15 I guess what seems like important assassination related information to me, is just minutae to everyone else. So that would mean the fact that C.B. Smith who sold THE Rambler to George Wing that may have been the car used by the "other" Oswald to leave the TSBD*..his mother working for the MacMillan Publishing Co., inside the TSBD on November 22, 1963.....is deemed not worth responding to...... Interesting * Lee Oswald could not have left the Depository at 12:31 C.D.T and also left at 12:40 C.D.T on November 22, 1963 hence the quotation marks surrounding "other." Maybe a new reference to a Rambler will awaken the Land of Nod, in this case, what appears to be a phone call by Harry Olsen to a Rambler dealership in California using Kathy Kay Coleman's telephone...... Home/Archive/Documents/JFK Assassination Documents/JFK Documents - Federal Bureau of Investigation/FBI Ruby Headquarters File (44-24016)/ FBI 44-24016 Ruby HQ File, Section 82 page 7, telephone number 735-9111 is listed to the Sands Hotel, 3717 Las Vegas Boulevard, South, Las Vegas page 8, telephone toll charges Kathy Kay Coleman Harry Olsen investigation of Southwestern Bell Records no service in the name of Harry Olsen page 45 REPORT OF LONG DISTANCE TELEPHONE CALLS Telephone Number 534-4545 Subscriber Grove Rambler Sales, Inc. 12222 Garden Grove Boulevard. Garden Grove, California Dates Called 1/7/64 end also see CD 1470 page 27 http://www.maryferre...65&relPageId=27 Commission Document 1470 - FBI Letter from Director of 08 Sep 1964 with Attachments re: Olsen Long Distance Calls pg 26 -published 10132 Malinda Lane Garden Grove California Wells and Sons 5/21/64 Wholesale Provisions 11162 Wasco Road Garden Grove California Laurentide Finance 5/18/64 Corporation 12190 Brookhurst Garden (UNDATED) Or maybe a photo, people seem to like photo's I really believe only about 10% of the Forum seems eager about following the final JFK assassination questions through to their final resolution, everyone else..........?????? well, what would you think about the response to this thread? I would think JFK's memory and why we are all members in the first place, would demand a little better, I don't plan on spending the rest of my life posting on the Forum. You might wake up one day and find the only posts here are by people who are convinced Oswald acted alone........ When the going gets tough, the tough go to Disneyland?

thank you David, Kathy, Dixie had been quite ill for some time with Emphysema, she lived in the desert in CAL.and i know the winds that seemed to blow the dust and all around almost always, did not help her breathing problems, nor the pollution, she had gone into a nursing home and died peacefully in her sleep two nights after, she was 71 in march. but you would never have guessed by her interest and love of life,and she cared for people, and that made her special, thank you for your lovely message, now you and we all ,as she would say keep carrying on...but guess what, now SHE KNOWS....WE DON'T YET, BUT SHE DOES. SHE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AND ALL ABOUT IT... I wish I had had an opportunity to meet her in person, and I am glad she died in as relatively peaceful circumstances, as she did. And I feel really bad, I think I have a lot of emphathy for all of the longtime posters, she was a real original. Requiem in Aeternam Dixie

What I have read is that Philip Graham was a manic-depressive. (Now who do I know who's like that?) He was in a mental hospital and they let him go home for the weekend. Supposedly, only Katherine Graham was in the house when he shot himself with a rifle in a downstairs bathroom. Earlier, when he was invited to the Kennedy's Oval Office, he walked in, picked up the "red" phone and yelled, "Scramble the planes." Suspicion surrounds his death. His father-in-law gave the business over to Philip, when rightfully it should have gone to Katherine Graham. Male chauvinism. Did Philip really kill himself? Would someone with foreknowledge of Kennedy's Assassination confide in Philip, who was a "mental case"? Who knows what he knew? Kathy C This man had a link to a rather famous Kennedy Assassination figure........his obituary appeared in the Dallas Morning News on October 31, 1963.... I can't help but think that face reminds me of someone..... If this isn't a conversation piece, I guess I don't understand the meaning of the phrase....

Karl, I appreciate the clarification. God knows some of these topics and subtopics can be a little maddening in all the details. I am really glad you went to the trouble regarding expounding on the two Ramblers, and hope you didn't take offense as, I only wanted to know more..... I will do what I can to find out more about this... Well, irrespective of the Rambler issue, one interesting factoid has emerged, or remembered is a better word... is from the 1996 update to Possible Discovery....... In a development that brings further importance to that Rambler's similarities to Wing's, we have confirmed that C.B. Smith's first wife, Fronia Ellen S. Smith, the mother of C.B. Smith Jr.,[ the sales manager at the time of the April 1963 Rambler sale to George Wing], was working in the third floor, TSBD office of Macmillan Publishing Co., at the time of the assassination.... Maybe this will generate someone's interest besides myself regarding Mrs. John L (Carol) Hughes See my post # 16 if one believes it is of possible relevance re the TSBD. http://educationforu...pic=15323&st=15