Thomas Graves

Robert, Yes. Well, it's a pity that Darnell didn't continue to film Baker for a few more seconds. I guess we'll just never know for sure. All we can do is speculate and try to put together elegant scenarios, myself included. Still, if what you say is correct, then it's strange that none of the witnesses said anything about Baker's sprinting down to the corner to confer with them (or with someone else) for a couple of minutes. --Tommy

Robert, Then in all due respect to you, I'd have to ask you where did Baker run to if not up the front steps, and why did none of the witnesses say anything about his sprinting to the corner, or down the side of the building, or climbing up the fire escape ladder, or running up to them to ask them some questions? I don't think it's so strange that none of the witnesses other than Truly (who in Darnell was looking right at him and turned to watch him go by) remembered and reported seeing Baker run up the steps. And as I've tried to point out, Baker's easiest route up the steps was just to the left of the center hand railing, which would explain his last-second veering in Darnell. --Tommy

Robert, In a recent post or a PM to me (can't remember which right now), Linda shows a frame from Darnell (?) which shows that the front door was already cracked open. FWIW, if Oswald was Prayer Man, then he was innocent and regardless of when he could have seen Baker running towards or up the front steps, the fact that Baker was approaching the front entrance wouldn't have mattered to Oswald, IMHO, so the question of whether or not Oswald could see Baker coming his way is immaterial. In a PM, Linda gave me a link to her fascinating photo album page at ROKC http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/photos/album?albumid=15889118 which not only shows that Prayer Man was probably holding a twin lens "reflex" camera, but also has the interesting statement made by 17-year-old TSBD employee Roy Lewis to the FBI on 3/18/64. Lewis stated that he was watching the motorcade from inside the vestibule and that although he was acquainted with Oswald, "He was not with me at the time that I heard the shots." Which seems like a very legalistic, technically-correct kind of a statement for him to make, which, in turn, leads me to believe that Oswald was inside the building (in the vestibule) with Lewis before the assassination, but then left him at the last second and went outside (probably with his twin lens "reflex" camera, the internal mirror of which reflected some of the direct sunlight back out through the camera's viewing lens, causing that lens to glow in Wiegman and Darnell / Couch). I'm thinking that Lewis may have opened the door all the way for Oswald to get back in, out of courtesy, or that Lewis may have come outside (right after Darnell's camera just happened to stop filming that area) to see what had happened. Anyway, in either case the door could have been open enough for Oswald to scurry inside to retrieve his precious cheese sandwich or apple or Coke (Dr. pepper?) from the storage room near the front entrance, any of which which he just might have stashed there beforehand. Here is Linda's post about Lewis on her "photo album" page on the ROKC website: Here's Lewis' full statement: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317&search=roy_edward+lewis#relPageId=691&tab=page I disagree with Linda's statement: "Also, why would Lewis say: 'I stood by myself...' he was obviously with Lovelady, Shelley and others." Lewis was not standing with Lovelady and Shelley, nor even necessarily with "others" during the shooting, but Oswald / Prayer Man may very well have been standing next to him in the vestibule until a few seconds before the motorcade passed by. We know that Lovelady and Shelley were standing outside the building on the front steps during the shooting. Roy Lewis said he was standing on the inside of the front entrance (in the "vestibule") during the shooting, i.e., on the other side of the glass from Lovelady, Shelley, Frazier, Prayer Man, and others. PS Many researchers have confused 17-year-old Roy Lewis for 33-year-old Carl Jones, another black TSBD employee, who was standing on the front steps during the assassination (below Prayer Man). From Robin Unger's JFK Assassination Blog: Black TSBD employee Carl Jones is visible on the lower left edge of the steps in this Wiegman frame, taken a few seconds before the first shot rang out, but Roy Lewis isn't visible here because he's not only behind Prayer Man, but on the other side of the front door / window in the "vestibule." --Tommy

Linda, Except for the Obit. and the 6:15 links, none of the other links in this post work for me yet in Google Chrome. This is the GOOGLE message I get: "404. That’s an error. The requested URL was not found on this server. That’s all we know." I have just now looked at your 1950's photo of "Navy Guy" Sooy and the four images of "White Tie Guy / DCA Guy" next to it which you posted a few hours ago on this thread, and I'm sorry to say I'm not convinced they're the same guy, but I am trying to keep an open mind. I'm looking forward to seeing your other photos of Sooy, and hopefully we'll find a photo or two of Campbell someday, too. Keep up the good work. --Tommy

Linda, I have some bad news, and then I have some really bad news. First, the bad news. The only links that work for me are the newspaper's obituary and the DCA video. The six "googlephotos" links don't work. Try clicking on them to see what I mean. Now for the really bad news. I disagree with you when you say the guy at 6:15 in the video is not the same guy who is standing on the "island" during the assassination with his arms crossed and a white handkerchief in his breast pocket. There are too many similarities. The handkerchief, the suit, the lighter-than-its-hatband hat, the white tie. The faces are close enough for me. He was smiling on the "island" and practically frowning at 6:15 in the video. It's understandable that his face would look different because of the facial contortions he's going through. So we don't divert this thread any farther from the question "Where was Truly right after the last shot," I'm going to start a new thread and call it "White Tie And Handkerchief Guy -- ONI Officer David Aubrey Sooy?," or something like that. Please feel free to put your posts on my "6:15 Guy" and your Sooy there. --Tommy bumped for Linda re-bumped for Linda can anyone help her post the photos she's trying to post?

No, I'm afraid you don't. It's not the exclusive domain of one person. I've seen the same tactics used by people on all sides of the JFK assassination debate. It's simply that one person comes to mind much more quickly than the others because the full spectrum of logical fallacies is employed. Others, on both sides of the debate, seem to specialize in one or two or three of them. [emphasis added by T. Graves] Yes, Mark. One certainly does come immediately to my mind -- D. J. ! At least DVP can spell. LOL --Tommy

I'm a bit confused here, Sean, with Mr. Campbell's stories. Did he "race" back into the building following the shots or did he "run" towards the grassy knoll? bumped Robert, As Linda and I have come to believe and have tried to point out in your "Where Was Truly Immediately After the Last Shot?" thread, Truly and Reid are visible in this Darnell frame, and probably (Big Boy?) Campbell, too. Reid (with the big black purse and wearing a light-colored dress or coat) is already walking towards the front entrance; Truly and "Big Boy" start walking in that direction in another second or two. Baker is not visible in this frame (he's hidden behind Stetson Hat Man), but is sprinting in the general direction of the front steps in this frame. What's fascinating is that Oswald / Prayer Man is still just outside the front door. EDIT: I just noticed in the super enlargement that Truly has his mouth open as though he's saying something to Baker (behind Stetson Man) or to "Big Boy." In this context it's important to remember that Campbell told the New York Herald Tribune on 11/22 or 11/23 that "We entered the building shortly after the shooting and saw him in a storage room on the ground floor." Credit Robin Unger's photo collection on JFK Assassination Forum. Click to super-enlarge. The question is -- Is "Big Boy" the same person as the big guy who is visible at the very far right of this enhanced clip from Wiegman? If so, then "Big Boy" is probably O.V. Campbell. --Tommy

I'm a bit confused here, Sean, with Mr. Campbell's stories. Did he "race" back into the building following the shots or did he "run" towards the grassy knoll? bumped

Glenn, Speer didn't resurrect this thread. I did. Personally, I have a hard time understanding what Speer is getting at because it seems that half the time he's not presenting his point of view but trying to explain his opponent's arguments. --Tommy PS I "resurrected" this thread by bumping and writing about Greg Warner's post #13 which I've copied and pasted, below: Regarding the presence of military intelligence officers in Dealey Plaza, James Richards recently offered a bit of information (and this photo) that was previously unknown to me. David A. Sooy was an ONI officer stationed in Dallas. He was photographed with another ONI man named Frank Krystinic. Krystinic was close friends with Michael Paine. Sooy was in his car parked in front of the TSBD when the shots were fired, a fact which is referenced in his obituary. Just another coincidence? Edited by Greg Wagner, 22 November 2014 - 06:40 AM. Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3252"This isn't right; this isn't even wrong." ~Wolfgang Pauli

Yes, Robert, I'd already read his obituary (which new member Linda posted a day or two ago on the "Where Was Truly Right After the Last Shot?" thread. Did you miss it there? Not sure I understand what you meant when you said I seemed to have a "premise." I hope you didn't mean that I seemed to have "an agenda." LOL If you mean that I got from Sooy's obituary the idea that his car must have been visible near the TSBD, you are correct, sir. After all, I did write at the beginning of my last post: Sooy's obituary says that he was in his parked car near the TSBD during the assassination. I wonder if the older model green car that was parked on the side of the TSBD at the intersection of Elm and Houston could have belonged to Sooy? The car I'm talking about is visible in the background of this photo: FWIW, Linda thinks the guy wearing the white tie and white handkerchief near the end of Robert Hughes' film was ONI regional chief David A. Sooy, and I thought it would be worthwhile to pursue that idea. Unfortunately, Linda has been unable to upload here some photos she says she has of Sooy so that we could compare them with the white-tie-and-handkerchief guy visible in the Hughes film at 6:15 in the video I posted in my first post, this thread Something I'd really like to know is -- Was Sooy ONI? Greg Parker said "Sooy was ONI" to James Richards on this forum a few years ago, but didn't elaborate as to how he knew that. Perhaps he will do so here. If ONI Special Agent Robert D. Steel were still alive here in San Diego, I would ask him about Sooy. All I know is that A.C. Sullivan was a "very good friend" of Steel's, and was head of the Dallas ONI office. --Tommy PS Thanks for the de facto "bump."

Hi Robert, Good to hear from you again. I think you are probably right in your analysis -- Truly may have had an "appointment" to keep inside the TSBD regarding the assassination (But what, exactly -- to implicate Oswald somehow? To help the shooter get away?), and when he and Baker encountered Oswald (Prayer Man) right outside the front door or just inside it in the lobby / vestibule / storage closet, Campbell and probably Reid happened to be there and witness said encounter, too. If they did see Oswald in the small storage room by the front stairs, maybe Lee had stashed his apple or his cheese sandwich in there and he went there to retrieve it.... But Prayer Man is still outside the front door when Baker leaps up onto the sidewalk (and, IMHO probably runs up the steps just to the left of the center hand railing) in Couch / Darnell, and Truly and "Big Boy" Campbell turn and start walking towards the front entrance. I seriously doubt that Oswald / Prayer man ran through the front door as Baker was bounding up the steps towards it. So why did Campbell, in his 11/22/63 statement to the New York Times Herald reporter, (which was published the next day on 11/23/63) say, "We saw Oswald in a small storage room on the ground floor"? If Prayer Man was indeed Oswald, then I guess the only logical answer to that question is that Oswald would look too innocent if he was already outside the front door, whereas he would look a little more guilty if he was found inside the building in a storage room, suggesting that he was hiding there, waiting for an opportunity to escape. --Tommy

Could this be the car that Sooy was waiting in? --Tommy

Truly, you jested?

Correct, Mark. Linda and I have determined that the guy I've been calling call "Truly #1," the man who's wearing a dark suit and fedora and standing on the edge of the "island" with his arms crossed in Wiegman, is not Roy Truly. Linda and I think we have found, in an enhanced clip from Dave Wiegman's film, the real Roy Truly, O.V. Campbell, and Jeraldean Reid standing near each other on the sidewalk in front of the front steps, and we think that their actions a few seconds after the shooting, as captured in Darnell and Couch, suggest that Campbell was telling the truth when he told a newspaper reporter on 11/22/63 (published 11/23/63) that "We" (probably Campbell and Reid, and perhaps Truly and / or Marion Baker) "went through the the front door shortly after the shooting stopped and encountered Oswald in a first floor storage room." (paraphrasing a bit here) Linda and I mildly disagree on whether or not "Truly #1" is also visible starting at 6:15 in this video. I say he is, Linda says it's a different man. Yours truly, --Tommy

Sooy's obituary says that he was in his parked car near the TSBD during the assassination. I wonder if the older model green car that was parked on the side of the TSBD at the intersection of Elm and Houston could have belonged to Sooy? The car I'm talking about is visible in the background of this photo: --Tommy

Linda, I have some bad news, and then I have some really bad news. First, the bad news. The only links that work for me are the newspaper's obituary and the DCA video. The six "googlephotos" links don't work. Try clicking on them to see what I mean. Now for the really bad news. I disagree with you when you say the guy at 6:15 in the video is not the same guy who is standing on the "island" during the assassination with his arms crossed and a white handkerchief in his breast pocket. There are too many similarities. The handkerchief, the suit, the lighter-than-its-hatband hat, the white tie. The faces are close enough for me. He was smiling on the "island" and practically frowning at 6:15 in the video. It's understandable that his face would look different because of the facial contortions he's going through. So we don't divert this thread any farther from the question "Where was Truly right after the last shot," I'm going to start a new thread and call it "White Tie And Handkerchief Guy -- ONI Officer David Aubrey Sooy?," or something like that. Please feel free to put your posts on my "6:15 Guy" and your Sooy there. --Tommy bumped for Linda

As indicated on another thread, Linda thinks the guy wearing the white tie and the white handkerchief in his jacket pocket in this video at 6:15 is Dallas ONI officer David A. Sooy. (My Question: Isn't "6:15 Guy" also visible standing on the traffic "island" with his arms crossed in the Wiegman film?) --Tommy PS Here's a 1940's or 1950's photo said to be of Sooy on the right and Krystinik on the left, which was originally posted by James Richards. 10414571_650535015066813_827721137919513780_n.jpg

Linda, I have some bad news, and then I have some really bad news. First, the bad news. The only links that work for me are the newspaper's obituary and the DCA video. The six "googlephotos" links don't work. Try clicking on them to see what I mean. Now for the really bad news. I disagree with you when you say the guy at 6:15 in the video is not the same guy who is standing on the "island" during the assassination with his arms crossed and a white handkerchief in his breast pocket. There are too many similarities. The handkerchief, the suit, the lighter-than-its-hatband hat, the white tie. The faces are close enough for me. He was smiling on the "island" and practically frowning at 6:15 in the video. It's understandable that his face would look different under those conditions. So we don't divert this thread any farther from answering the question "Where was Truly right after the last shot," I'm going to start a new thread and call it "White Tie And Handkerchief Guy -- ONI Officer David Aubrey Sooy?" Please feel free to put your posts on your 6:15 guy and Sooy there. --Tommy

Bumped with a question for Linda: Is this the only photo we have of Sooy? Some of the photos that James Richards posted on another thread are gone now, but it's my understanding that in this photo Sooy is on the right and Krystinic is on the left. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that. --Tommy

Apparently this montage is viewable on the JFK Assassination Forum. I don't know who posted it there, or where it came from. I found it by googling, in quotation marks, "Betty Dragoo" and then clicking on "Images." I did not draw the red lines or write the text. I do recognize the two larger crops as coming from the Robert Hughes film. The important thing for me is that the small photo at the bottom proves that Truly #1 (who was standing on the "island") was wearing a white handkerchief in his breast pocket. Does anyone here seriously believe that the guy in the bottom photo (with the white handkerchief in his breast pocket and apparently wearing a light-colored tie) is Roy Truly? Click to enlarge. Please note that on 11/22/63, The Real Deal Truly (the short guy, below) was not wearing a white handkerchief in his jacket pocket, nor was he wearing a light-colored tie. Thanks, --Tommy

John, Jack Cason was President, Campbell was VP and Truly was Superintendant. All three were company directors of the TSBD. The TSBD covered Texas, Oklahoma. Arkansas, Louisiana and New Mexico -- same 5 states covered by 112th MIG. The article you posted from McAdams' site, you shouldn't be surprised to learn, was authored by a Warrenista named Jerry Organ. His story that the floor laying was due to oil left from previous occupant is without citation, and really makes little sense. Why, if the book cartons were in danger of damage, would they wait almost a year to fix the problem? And if there actually had been oil on the floor, wouldn't the cartons have been getting damaged all along? Lastly, in testimony, Ruth Paine said she believed Oswald worked at the old warehouse. Why then did she fear Oswald was involved when it came over the news that shots were fired from the book depository on Elm St, as she also testified to? [emphasis added by T. Graves] I came across this interesting old post by Greg Parker while I was rummaging around, do I thought I'd bump it. Supporting document: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/cason.htm --Tommy

Great work, Linda, as reflected in all of your recent posts. As to whether or not "Truly #1" has a handkerchief in his breast pocket, I think it's possible that what we're seeing is a part of his white cuff as his hand tucks under his arm. Right now it's a tossup for me as to whether it's his wrist or a handkerchief. Regardless, I don't think "Truly #1" is the guy we're looking for. His face is different (although admittedly he is smiling -- as are several other members of his "party" -- could they be reacting to the sounds of the "firecrackers?), his hat looks lighter in color than its band, I don't see anyone who looks like Reid with him, and it doesn't make sense that Campbell would be standing in the background -- IMHO, Truly and Campbell would have been standing next to each other. After all, they were allegedly on their way to having lunch together when they decided to stop and watch the motorcade.... Assuming that Truly, Campbell, and Reid were all standing near each other, then another thing that would suggest that "my" Truly (Truly #2) is the real deal is the fact that Campbell said in his WC testimony that he thought "Billy" Shelley was standing off to his right. I think there's a general consensus that Bill Shelley is man with the thin black tie at the top of the steps (behind Lovelady) during the assassination. If that is indeed Shelly on the steps, then he would be "off to the right" of Reid, Truly, and Campbell (off to their right), and off to Truly #1's left. That's all for now, I guess. Keep up the good work, Linda! --Tommy Edit: In his March 19, 1964, statement to the FBI, Campbell said that during the assassination, Mrs. Bonnie Richie, Mrs. Carolyn Arnold, and Mrs. Jeraldean Reid were "standing at my elbow" during the assassination. I guess now I'll have to try and find some photos of Bonnie Richie and Carolyn Arnold, as well as the other gals they said they were standing with (Betty Dragoo, Virginia Baker, Judy Johnson, and gals they said they were standing with...).

I think that's the number one suspect for Truly now Thomas, the hat appears to have a short brim too, good job. Thanks, Clive. Your comment caused me to notice just now how "my" Truly either has his head tilted back in Wiegman or is wearing his hat pushed back on his head, like the real-deal Truly is in this GIF. Since he was quite short, it might have been his way of trying to appear a little taller, IMHO. --Tommy

Linda, I think you might be onto "something big" in saying that the big guy near Truly in Darnell / Crouch and in Wiegman, too, is probably O.V. Campbell. Thanks for reminding me that in Campbell's first statement, (to a newspaper, probably on 11/22/63 but not published until 11/23), he said that (instead of running down to the Grassy Knoll) he / "we" shortly after the shots went inside the TSBD, and found Oswald in a first floor storage room. I'm thinking that if the big guy was Campbell, then his actions in Wiegman suggest that he was telling the truth in his statement to the newspaper. It is interesting that the big guy is one of only two or three men who are walking towards the steps in Darnell. Another one, of course, is the Truly figure who starts walking towards them after Baker has run past him. Whoever the big guy is, I think that he and Truly are communicating from a short distance in Darnell / Couch, which could explain why he walks towards Truly and then spins and starts walking towards the TSBD, almost as though Truly told him to get inside. Credit Gerda Dunckel. Click to enlarge. Now to play a little Devil's Advocate against myself: I don't understand why "my" Reid is not wearing a coat and a head scarf in Wiegman. Somewhere in her testimony she mentions getting them from her office before going downstairs to watch the motorcade, so why isn't she wearing them? Also, I hope I'm correct in saying that "Truly # 1" has a white handkerchief in his breast pocket, and that we're not seeing one of his hands in its crossed-arms position, instead. What do you think? Keep up the good work, Linda, and thanks for the feedback! --Tommy

Ed, Thanks for the feedback and the questions. You ask if Truly "isn't farther back near the building, on the sidewalk, as Baker runs past him as seen in Darnell / Wiegman." Baker is seen running past Truly in Darnell / Couch, but not in Weigman. Weigman was already running down Elm Street (with his movie camera running) when Darnell and Couch "caught" Baker running past Truly. Darnell / Couch: Credit: Gerda Dunckel. Click on image to enlarge a bit. As regards Jeraldean Reid, all i know is that she was 51 years of age at the time of the assassination, that she gave an affidavit to Det. Jim Leavelle on 11/23/63, and that she claimed in her WC testimony to have been standing in the street (or on the curb) near Campbell and Truly during the assassination. Jim Leavelle is on record as having taken Reid's affidavit on 11/23/63. In the photo of the woman sitting with Leavelle in the Homicide and Robbery Bureau, Leavelle appears to be writing a report of some sort and the woman looks like she could be in her early fifties, so I think it's reasonable to assume that the woman is Jearaldean Reid and the report that Leavelle is writing is Reid's affidavit. The four photos / frames with red arrows are, clockwise from upper right: 1 ) A Darnell / Couch frame. 2 ) A Dave Wiegman frame, best viewed in slow motion at 1:04 of this youtube video: 3 ) ? (I'm working on it.) 4 ) Don Cook film for Dallas TV station? More importantly, I've just now found this great enhanced Wiegman clip, posted by Sean Murphy on another thread, which shows Reid's head in the middle of the frame between two other women, and Truly (!) and Campbell (?) on the far right. Campbell (?) looks tall and possibly jacket-less. Truly is visible behind Campbell and a little to our left of him. He is much shorter than Campbell and is wearing his fedora and dark suit. Reid, Truly, and Campbell are standing in the line of people behind the car. Judging by Wiegman's camera movements in his complete film, the frames in this GIF seem to have been filmed about four seconds before the first or second shot rang out. --Tommy Thanks Linda. "Truly #1" in Wiegman (standing with his arms crossed on the edge of the "island") has a white handkerchief in his breast pocket and is wearing a hat that is lighter in color than its headband. Roy SansomTruly (the short guy in the below GIF) had no handkerchief in his breast pocket that day and his hat seems to be just as dark as its hatband. "Truly #2" in Wiegman ("my" Truly) is standing about where he said he was standing https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=39#relPageId=227&tab=page and he's standing only about six feet away from a woman who strongly resembles fifty-one year old Jeraldean Reid / Mrs. Robert A. Reid (who said she was standing near him during the assassination, and whom, conversely, Truly said was standing near him.) --Tommy