Thomas Graves

Sandy, I wish I could somehow prove that Jacob's and Holt's sidekick, Sharon Simmons, was misidentified by Speth / Robideau / Unger as "Carol Reed". But a "fly in my ointment" is the fact that their tallish, light-blue headscarf-wearing "Carol Reed" looks a lot like Karen Hicks in HSCA's photo #39 !! IMHO. -- Tommy

Sandy, I like you're reasoning. I'm making an educated guess that "Big Girl" is Gloria Calvery. -- Tommy

Big-time correction on my part: In their FBI statements, neither Jane Berry nor Betty Thornton said they were standing down on Elm Street ("1/3" or "1/2" of the way between Houston and the Triple Underpass, or whatever). Both of them said they were standing with each other "on Elm Street [Extension???] in front of the TSBD." https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf My bad. -- Tommy Edit: And then again, there's Peggy Burney. Peggy Burney (11-23-63 first-person account published in the Dallas Times-Herald) "I saw the President die. I was standing at the curb on Elm about a third the way from Houston Street near the overpass. When the President's car made the curve around the corner, he was smiling and waving. He was not standing, as I heard some reports say later. He was sitting, but he was happy and Jackie was happy and smiling as they passed. The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot. I did not realize it was a shot; I thought it was a backfire. The President ducked; instinctively I told myself 'something is happening,' but nobody knew what. Then I heard a second shot. I noticed that Jackie didn't duck - I could no longer see the President. The car momentarily stopped, then veered slightly to the right and speeded [sic] off. People around me were screaming; some were falling to the ground. I could not tell whether they were hit, or not - or just dodging. There was pandemonium. Everybody realized that the shots were coming from up high. People were running around cars and jumping over things. Soon, all the buildings around here were locked - including ours. Squad cars converged. There must have been a hundred of them right away. My employer, Mr. (Abe) Zapruder was making a movie at the time it happened. He is still with the Secret Service men. As soon as we were inside the building before any reports on the condition of the President, Mr. Zapruder had already told us 'The President of the United States is dead.' 'We saw him die...'" (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) "'We all saw him die,' Mrs. Peggy Burney said. But neither she nor the others who witnessed the assassination of the President could believe what they saw. They thought the first of the three shots from the assassin's rifle was the backfire of a car." http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

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Ya know Sandy, I was writing from memory there. I'll have to go back and check what their FBI statements said. Don't get all paranoid on me quite yet. I probably should have said, "One of them said she was 1/3 ..." But I might even be wrong about that. Like I said, I was going from memory. Sheesh. -- Tommy PS Have you read their FBI statements? I'm talking about Jane Berry and Betty Thornton, here. https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Well that will blow my "low odds of coincidence" opinion! But I hope you've sniffed out yet another great find. But wait a second. I just realized that the so-called logic I used in my "research" on the three headscarf-wearing ladies labeled (from L. to R. in the Z-Frame) as Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney, was circular or something in nature. What I did find out is that Jane Berry and Betty Thornton both worked for the Scott-Foresman Company in the TSBD, and they said in their FBI statements that they went together about 1/3 the way down Elm Street to watch the motorcade. Peggy Burney, on the other hand, worked in the DalTex Building for Abraham Zapruder's "Jennifer Juniors" clothing company, and although she wasn't asked by the FBI to give a statement (probably because she didn't work in the TSBD), she did, many years later, release to the press what she'd written (as kinda "therapy" I suppose) on 11/22/63 about her assassination experience. In these "memoirs" she made no mention of having walked down Elm Street with anyone else or having watched the motorcade with anyone else for that matter, so I think we have to assume that she was a "singletary," or maybe that she went there with Zapruder and Sitzman and was "abandoned" by them when they went to go stand on the "pillar"?. Regardless, none of this proves that the "Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney" that Thierry "Fake News" Speth, or Don Roberdeau, or Robin Unger labeled as such (in the big color Z-frame which has been posted on this thread), really WERE ... Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney. D'oh. -- Tommy Edit: So, getting back-on-track here: What are the chances that, even though only two of the four gals in "Big Girl's" group ("Berry and Thornton") knew each other (and therefore might have influenced each other clothing-wise), all four of them were wearing head scarves? .

UPDATE!!!!! -- I've done some more "research" and have come to the tentative conclusion that those four headscarf-wearing ladies probably were not together, after all. How you like dem apples? -- Tommy PS Five? I count only four in the Z-frame.

Robin, Yes, I think the blond gal looks like she could be 19-years-old. Why? Do you think she looks younger than that? (lol) How old do you think Gloria Jeanne Holt looks in her high school photos? Westbrook? Please explain. -- Tommy

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I know Robin. The errors have been unintentionally perpetuated and compounded for a long time, haven't they. And to think that one silly little error started it all off -- The FBI's (or the girls') stating, incorrectly, that they'd been standing on the SOUTH side of Elm Street. LOL!

Robin, Do you you have a better candidate for light-skinned Calvery than the dark-complected, Native American-looking gal Thierry Speth chose back in the day. i.e. the woman on the left here? -- Tommy Conversely, wouldn't you agree that Stella Jacob's documented sidekick that afternoon, Gloria Jeanne Holt, looks a lot like Thierry's "Karen Hicks"? Scroll down to see a 1963 high school photograph of Gloria Jeanne Holt http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13242379-minor-witnesses

Yes, Robin. I realize that (Native American) Stella Jakob, and (blond-haired) Gloria Jeanne Holt, and (probably) Sharon Simmons can be seen standing together "in front of" the Stemmons Freeway sign. The big question now is: Where are Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed. Karen Westbrook. and June Dishong? But especially Gloria Calvery. Where is Gloria Calvery? -- Tommy

Thanks, Robin. I see the woman in blue now and I agree with you. -- Tommy

Robert, It looks to me as though Dishong is hanging out with Westbrook more than with the other four gals. More importantly, it seems to me that the woman labeled "Jane Berry" in the above Zapruder frame might be the same woman standing farthest to the left in this un-cropped Altgens 6 photo, below. It appears to me as though this woman I think is "Jane Berry" is wearing a headscarf in the Altgens photo.

Assassin witness, John Templin (right next to "Big Girl" in the Z-film) and his business acquaintance, Ernest Brandt (wearing a brown hat right next to Templin in the Z-film), were standing between our "Big Girl" (aka Ms. "L") and Karen Westbrook. John Templin said he heard three shots, and that the first one occurred when the limo was 30 feet past him. He said he saw JFK splay out one of his arms at that point, and that his view of JFK's other arm was blocked by JFK's head. The 1st shot Templin heard must have been the one that hit or exited JFK's throat, which shot was pretty much captured by Ike Altgens in his famous "Altgen's 6" photograph. John Templin also said he saw JFK get shot in the head in one of the ensuing shots. In Chapter 7b: More Pieces in the Plaza, Pat Speer (who seems to believe, based on his analysis of witnesses' statements, that the first shot was heard between Z-190 and Z-224) wrote, "[The following is] [f]rom Don Roberdeau's 6-08-09 post on the alt.assassination.jfk forum, in which he [Roberdeau] recounts Templin's 6-28-95 Oral History interview with the Sixth Floor Museum -- '[...] Templin said the first blast/shockwave originated from his left, his 2nd remembered blast/shockwave came from his right towards the railroad yard and hit JFK in head and sounded different, and Templin's 3rd remembered blast/shockwave came from his left, with the total shots sequence lasting about 6 seconds... Templin thought his 1st remembered blast/shockwave was a motorcycle backfire. [...]'" Speer goes on to say, "Afterwards, Templin provided a 6-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral-histories interview and detailed that 'his' 1st blast/shockwave occurred when the limo was 30' past himself." http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

Robert, Based on what the four women allegedly said in their FBI statements, they were standing on Elm Street proper, not the Elm Street Extension. The critical phrase in Calvery's, Hick's, and Westbrook's statements is "halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass," and in Reed's case, "about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass." There's no wa they could have been talking about the Elm Street Extension. Gloria Calvery's FBI statement has her saying she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass." Calvery said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "shot". Mrs. James Daniel (Karan) Hicks' FBI statement has her saying said she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass." Hicks said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "explosion." Carol Reed's FBI statement has her saying she "was standing on the curb of Elm Street about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass." Reed didn't say where the limo was in relation to her when she heard the first "shot" or "explosion". Karen Westbrook's FBI statement has her saying she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass." Westbrook said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "explosion." Question: What is the general JFK-researcher consensus regarding where the limo was on Elm Street (and in which Z-Frame) when the first shot rang out? -- Tommy PS -- As far as I know, none of the above ladies were every officially asked how many shots or "explosions" they heard, nor the direction said "shots" or "explosions" came from. Bummer. That makes it hard to determine which "1st shot / explosion" they're referring to when the limo "was almost directly in front of" them. The shot some people believe came as early as Z-135 or so, or one that came many frames later, around frame 158, or maybe frame 190, or maybe ... ?

Dear Michael, LOL Sincerely, -- Tommy

Robert, I no longer trust most of the "ID's" of the people standing on Elm Street. For all we know, they could have been made by Thierry "Fake News" Speth! Identifying or verifying the ID's of those four headscarf-wearing gals will be a laborious process, I'm afraid. It's too bad none of them (except "Big Girl") are visible in Betzner 3, and it's too bad (in a way) that they're all wearing head scarves because ... we can't see their hair color. -- Tommy

Robert, OK. Fair enough. Unless Shelley's friend, Gloria Calvery, was much farther away than "halfway down Elm Street," and the evil FBI "placed" her and her friends close enough (in their evil little minds) to plausibly(?) be able to run up to the TSBD or the "island" in a timely-enough manner to plausibly be able to confer with Shelley and Lovelady (?) in a timely enough manner so that they, in turn, could plausibly "see" Vicki Adams when and where they claimed to have seen her -- or not. I mean, "I wouldn't swear to it." -- Tommy

Sandy, As a counter-argument I'd say that, unlike her "dress up" high school and wedding photographs, the 11/22/63 photo of Gloria Calvery was "informal / casual" in that she was probably wearing her work clothes that day, and the poor thing probably wasn't expecting to be photographed. Least of all from the rear. Another thing I've just noticed is that in Betzner 3, "big girl" has dark-colored hair and looks like she might be wearing glasses. Regardless, we know that the guy next to her was with the guy next to him (he's not visible in Betzner 3), so how do you like my theory that those four headscarf-wearing gals were together? -- Tommy

bumped again already

Robert, Which begs the question, "Did the FBI fabricate all of their statements because they, or at least one of them, were somehow involved in the assassination?" Why else would the FBI fabricate their statements, Robert? -- Tommy

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Michael, It's totally irrelevant. -- Tommy Edit: Except for the remote possibility that, through a slow and laborious process of elimination, we might be able to finally determine where Calvery was standing during the motorcade, and whether or not she was the "Running Woman" in Couch-Darnell, and whether or not Shelly and Lovelady were lying about her having informed them of JFK's being hit, etc.

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