Thomas Graves

I think the four unidentified women enclosed in the yellow rectangle in one of the (reversed) Z-frames Robin posted probably came to that position on Elm Street together, and are all friends, or at least co-workers. I say this not only because they're standing close together, but because they're the only women in that photograph and the larger one below it who are wearing head scarves, with the exception of newly-ID'd Sharon Sessions at the far left, wearing the light blue one. That kinda "sticks out like a sore thumb" to me. -- Tommy

Thanks, Robin. If I had to guess which one of those four women was Gloria Calvery, I'd say she was the "broad in the beam" one. -- Tommy

All of them? -- Tommy

Sandy, On another thread you asked, in so many words, about how to start looking for Calvery in the photos. For starters, here's Hugh Betzner #3, which is almost identical to a photo taken by Phil Willis. You should also take a good look at un-cropped Altgens 6, and the frame-by-frame Z-Film. Edit: In Betzner 3, below, could the tall woman (standing "next to" a guy and visible between the farthest-left SS guys) who's wearing a dark dress and dark headscarf in the photo below be Gloria Calvery? (We know from the Z-Film that that particular woman (Ms. "L" in the color frame, below) was tall and "broad in the beam" just like Gloria Calvery appeared to have been in her high school and wedding photos.) -- Tommy PS -- Page 4 of this thread might be helpful (scroll way down it to get to the good stuff): http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/22655-re-post-from-rokc-re-baker-entering-tsbd/&page=4

Robert, I'm using windows 10 with google chrome (don't know if that matters, or not), and what works best for me is to "highlight" what I want to quote, then right "click" while it's highlighted, and then then left click on the black "quote this" thingy that pops up, and then ... away you go. -- Tommy PS This is a test. (lol)

Robert, Wouldn't it be something if it was Shelley who killed JFK, and if Calvery (at whose wedding Shelley was best man) wasn't where she said she was during the motorcade, but was helping Shelley somehow? And did double-duty by "covering" for him after the assassination? -- Tommy

Robert, Yes, it doesn't make much sense that someone (i.e., Calvery) who said they were standing on Elm Street during the motorcade would run past "Shelley and Lovelady" within 30 seconds of the final shot from that direction on (and on the far side of ?) Elm Street Extension. So that's a problem, too. -- Tommy

Robert, I'm afraid that William Miller's the best we've got, Bob. -- Tommy

In my humble opinion, Calvery seems to have been too "full figured" to have been the narrow-waisted "Running Woman" in Couch-Darnell. Regardless, was "Running Woman" wearing those (now-ugly) glasses that Calvery liked to wear, even in her wedding photograph? -- Tommy

Sandy, Yes, I believe she was referring to the north side of the street. In my original post, I think I kinda implied that a mistake had been made, and that the three's FBI statements should have said they were on the north side of the street, instead. Even if they had been on the south side of Elm Street, I believe they would have been a little farther down. Sorry, dude. -- Tommy

Thanks, Robert. And welcome back! Have a nice "vacation"? -- Tommy

Alistair, I'm personally convinced that the dark-skinned woman identified as "Gloria Calvery" in the 11/22/63 photos and films was Stella Mae Jacob, and that the blond "Karan Hicks" in those same photos and films was Gloria Jeanne Holt. So I don't feel a need to write or call either of them. But if someone else wants to do it in a polite and civil manner, they're more than welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned. If they do, I would suggest that they print out a copy of the three women ("Calvery," "Hicks," and "Reed") walking back up the sidewalk after the assassination, and send it to them so they'll know to whom you're referring when you ask them "Hey, Is that you?" I assume that whoever is wants to do it contact you for the "contact info," Alistair? I hope that whoever does it let's us know the results right away so that an additional 15,000 "researchers" do not call or write Jacob and / or Holt. (lol) -- Tommy

Alistair, She was from Wright City, Oklahoma. According to Wikipedia, 38.44% of the city's inhabitants were Native American in the 2000 census. -- Tommy

Bumped for Miller. And a question for the great photo and film analyst: Why are you so petty, William? Aren't you glad to know that I've proved, independently of your "curved eyebrow" and "nose" and "skin color" analysis, that Calvery (and Hicks and Reed) was misidentified a long, long time ago? Are you envious that you didn't prove it my way, yourself? -- Tommy PS The question remains: Where was the real-deal, light-skinned but chunky Gloria Jean Calvery watching the motorcade from? "K" and "Running Woman" look much too thin to be her, IMHO.

Dear William, Yep to the first part of the rhetorical question, and Nope to the second. Truth-be-told, I secretly started admitting to myself several months ago that "Gloria Calvery" looked too dark-complected in the 11/22/63 photos and films to be the real-deal Gloria Little / (Gloria Calvery) in the high school yearbook photos. You very recently said, yourself, that the woman labeled "Gloria Calvery" in the 11/22/63 photos and films had "black" skin, so apparently you thought she was an African American, not an American Indian, right? I'm not aware of anyone's having suggested that the person labeled "Gloria Calvery" in the 11/22/63 photos and films was a Native American. But you know what a lousy "researcher" I am, so I'm probably wrong about that, aren't I. You're welcome to take credit for it if you want to, William. And for having noticed that Stella Mae Jacob described herself in her FBI statement as being an "Indian female from Oklahoma" (not India, William), too, if you really really really really want to. And while you're at it, you might as well claim credit for noticing that one of the two girls Stella Mae Jacob watched the motorcade with, Gloria Jeanne Holt, strongly resembles, especially in her 1963 high school photo, one of the people Thierry Speth's "Gloria Calvery" watched the motorcade with -- Thierry Speth's "Karan Hicks." Congratulations oh great photo analyst! All the best! -- Tommy

LOL Good one, William. Check out my new thread on Stella Mae Jacob ("Gloria Calvery"), Gloria Jeanne Holt ("Karan Hicks"), and Sharon Simmons-Nelson ("Carol Reed"). It will put you in a better mood. -- Tommy

Twenty-three year-old TSBD employee Stella Mae Jacob, being a Native American, was (probably) dark-complected. Stella and two of her colleagues, Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharon Nelson (maiden name: Simmons) said in their FBI statements that they watched the motorcade together, and that they stood at the curb on the south [sic] side of Elm Street. I believe an honest mistake was made and that their FBI statements should have said "north side of Elm," instead. I base that belief not only on the fact that Jacob, being Native American, must have been dark-skinned, but also because Gloria Jeanne Holt bears a striking resemblance to the person identified (by Speth?) as "Karan Hicks." -- deleted dead photo link -- Left to Right: Jacob, Holt, Simmons "I, Stella Mae Jacob, freely furnish the following voluntary statement to Eugene F. Petrakis and A. Raymond Switzer, who have identified themselves to me as Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. I am an Indian female and reside at 508 South Marsalis, Dallas, Texas. I was born on May 31, 1943 in Wright City, Oklahoma, and have been employed at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm, Dallas, Texas, as typist in the billing department since the 1st of July, 1963. At approximately 12 :00 p .m . on November 22, 1963. I left the Depository building and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south (sic) side of Elm Street to await the presidential procession . I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs. Nelson, and [Gloria] Jeanne Holt, both employees of the Texas School Book Depository. I was still standing on the curb at the time president John F . Kennedy was shot I do not recall seeing lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and did not see him at the time of the asassination. I did not observe any strangers in the building on the morning of November 22, 1963. Following the assassination of the president, I tried to return to work in the Texas School Book Depository, but was told by other employees that no one would be allowed in the building so I did not return to work that day. I did not personally know Lee Harvey Oswald althought I recall seeing him on several occasions in the lunchroom. I have read this two page statement, initialed each page and each correction and find it true and correct to the best o£ my knowledge." /s/ Stella Mae Jacob https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf -- Tommy

Dear William, You must be kidding about Running Woman's being chunky Gloria Jean Calvery. Here she, before she got married, trying to hide her substantial girth behind a tire! (And why was she wearing that "dress suit jacket" at her wedding? To hide her embarrassing figure! LOL) All the best, -- Tommy

Dear William, Get real. Does anyone ever say they were standing "shoulder to shoulder" except, of course, at a Metallica concert? Regardless, do you really think narrow-waisted "Running Woman" was chunky Gloria Jean Calvery? -- Tommy PS Where do YOU have Reed and Hicks standing during the assassination? Up Elm Street close to "K," or farther down, you know, "about halfway between Houston and the Triple Underpass," like they said in their FBI reports / statements?

Dear William, We who? Regardless, was "Running Woman" standing with or near Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, and Karen Westbrook when the first shot rang out? Or is that just something the FBI fabricated for some unknown reason -- i.e., having Calvery, Reed, Hicks, and Westbrook say they were together down on Elm Street during the assassination? It would be nice to find some verified photographs of Reed, Hicks, and Westbrook. For example high school or wedding photographs. (I've done a cursory search but haven't found anything yet.) What makes you think lithe-looking "Running Woman" was the same person as chunky-looking (in her high school and wedding photographs) Gloria Jean Calvery? -- Tommy

Dear William, What does it matter whether or not William Shelley is visible (or identifiable) in Weigman? Do you think William Shelley might have been upstairs, foolin' around on the sixth floor? Do you think William Shelley started walking down Elm Street Extension / over to the "Island" before the first shot rang out? Or is your whole "point" that since skinny, kinda short William Shelley can't be seen (or at least ID'd) in Weigman, he must have been hidden behind some fat person, and therefore someone resembling Lovelady (i.e., your "Washed Out Man" in C - D) must have been hidden from the camera, too? What kind of logic is that? What does it matter whether or not William Shelley is visible in Weigman? -- Tommy PS Or have you "found" William Shelly in Weigman, and you're just playing another of your little time-wasting games?

Dear William, Whatever you do, don't become a stand up comedian. You'll starve. -- Tommy

Dear William, With whom was your Gloria Jean Calvery standing on Elm Street while the shots were ringing out? Carol Reed, Karan Hicks, and Karen Westbrook? Or someone else? Or you don't know / It doesn't matter? If Calvery wasn't standing with Reed, Hicks, and Westbrook, why did they all (IIRC) lie about it to the FBI, or why did the FBI "cook up" reports / statements to that effect? Thanks, -- Tommy

Dear William, Wouldn't you agree that the two-frame GIF (by Sandy} I posted is perfectly, or nearly perfectly, enlarged in that it makes the Person Of Interest (your "Washed Out Man" / our Lovelady) as large as possible without reaching "the point of diminishing returns," resolution-wise? In other words, maximizing the overall potential identification-ability of the P.O.I.? -- Tommy PS Why do you keep mentioning the little girl, William? Hmm?

Dear William, Could you please show us a photograph (or film frame) of Gloria Jean Calvery which was taken on 11/22/63? I'd like to know what you think she looked like. Thanks, -- Tommy