James DiEugenio

Joe: To me, that is the point that everyone seems to avoid. Its not so much what they do individually, but the fact that they seem to have found each other in that place and at that time. And they both act oddly, unlike anyone else. Especially after the shooting. I mean everyone springs into a panic mode and starts running around, most of them to the picket fence. But not those two. And that is weird. If we jump to a speculative conclusion, its almost like they knew what was going to occur so they were not at all surprised. Now, if you add in the cock and bull story Witt told the HSCA about how he got there in the first place, I mean give me a break. And then why he raised the umbrella? The fact that the WC never explored this angle at all, at least as far as I know, tells you what they were doing. Not much.

Thanks for proving my point. You have nothing of any substance to say on this case at all. So why not go back to Ufology?

LP: DVP is certainly very good at it. LOL Yeah that is why he has to edit these things to transfer to his site and give himself the last word. Can someone by Payette a set of handballs and a membership to the Denver YMCA. I mean Mike Shermer?

I did not say any such thing.

Newsweek is a left wing journal? When did that happen? Also , I guess you did not read his book before last. He called Oswald the assassin. That is how he gets printed. Same as with the late Alexander Cockburn. We will let you write about almost anything, as long as you say Kennedy was killed as the WC says it happened.

Mathias, Payette knows all the questions about that transaction. Like DVP, he is simply stirring things up all over again. DVP has already admitted that he does not have a life. Payette is retired. He apparently needs something to do. If just once, either of these guys would bring in something new from the declassified files, that would be one thing. They don't. I have little doubt that they do not read one single page. So how interested can they be in this subject, really. Like I said, I hope Payette takes up handball. With DVP, hopefully he unretires and goes back to KFC. I mean he did not make a lot of money form his book.

As per DVP, I answered this on the Litwin thread. See, in this country we have something called presumption of innocence. The WC was neither a court, nor a fact finding body. And I explained why over there. Consequently, their conclusions are worthless. So saying that Oswald was guilty based on that is sort of like peeing into hurricane Michael,

Tracy, Morley is not employed by the W Post anymore or did you not know that? And the CIA, and Brett Kavanaugh used that against him to screw Lesar out of his fees. Do you really think the Post would let him run his web site if he was still on their payroll? I mean I know Spielberg and Hanks think they were a bunch of courageous truth tellers, but that was a fairy tale. Do you also read the Grimm brothers?

Let me get this straight Lance: Are you saying that the Chicago Plot did not happen? Or are you saying that its not important? Or are you saying that it would not be allowed into court? Or all three? The other blather in your fruity post is all based on the Von Peinian idea that Oswald killed Kennedy. And he shot at Walker. Because the WC says it occurred? OMG. You cannot be serious can you? You know what happened in New Orleans when Clay Shaw's lawyers tried to introduce the WC into evidence? They brought it into court in a wheelbarrow, all 26 volumes. When they stopped in front of the judge, he started laughing. He asked, tongue in cheek, you want to introduce that into court as some kind of binding evidence? You cannot be serious. And that was that. What is incredible here is that with Parnell, he has an excuse. But Mr. Running Suit is supposed to be a lawyer. And we are supposed to think that hey, he must at least value the whole legal process. But he does not. He does not even acknowledge that the DPD did not ever consider LHO a suspect in the Walker shooting the entire time they investigated the case. Or that the evidence report says that the ammo did not come from Oswald's rifle, but a different kind of weapon. That the FBI transformed that case almost overnight. When I asked DeBrueys about this at his home in Metaire he said that he knew it was the same guy in both instances, because Kennedy got shot in the head and Walker almost got shot in the head. And he went from there. Now that is indisputable evidence right Lance? Why not take up handball in retirement? You might be good at that.

There goes Parnell and that banana peel again. In any kind of fact finding committee, there is usually a majority and minority counsel.There are too many examples of this to name. When Rankin refused to have any kind of defense counsel this became the only way that there could be any kind of adversary proceeding. Because Dulles and McCloy had already pulled a power play to kill off the guy that Warren wanted as chief counseling order to get their guy, Rankin, in there. But there was no such arrangement. The main reason being that the part of the commission that should have been that body--Russell, Boggs and Cooper--saw that the game was rigged and they essentially gave up. Russell--like Adams and Hubert--essentially stopped attending. And he then ran his own private inquiry. And BTW, the HSCA knew about this since Burt Griffin told them that. Russell came to different conclusions which he never actually revealed. But there have been papers written about this down at the University of Georgia Library, which I am sure Parnell has secured and read. We all know, thanks to Weisiberg and McKnight, how Russell and his allies, Cooper and Boggs, were betrayed by the controlling faction--Dulles, McCloy and Ford--at the final meeting. Where the Commission had an impersonator there to mislead them into thinking that there was a stenographic record of their objections, which there was not. The girl was probably playing tic tac toe on her pad. And years later, when Russell found out about this, he blew up and began to blast the commission in public. What kind of fact finding committee does that to its own fact finders? I mean you do know about this right? And you leave it out for what reason? Brevity? You don't think its important? Where you ever got the idea that at a trial of Oswald the only evidence admissible would be within the confines of the city is so bizarre, so goofy, that it really makes me wonder about you. I mean if you are not a lawyer, don't you know any, do you watch TV?

Pat Speer's much longer and more detailed and more extensive take down of Givens. http://www.patspeer.com/chapter4b%3A"theso-calledevidence"

Here is Meagher's fine expose of this fabricator and how the Dallas authorities used him: http://22november1963.org.uk/meagher-the-curious-testimony-of-mr-givens

From Presumed GuIlty, an appendix at the end of the book Author’s note: This is the actual report of the FBI’s first interview with Charles Givens. Givens is reported as saying nothing about the alleged encounter with Oswald on the sixth floor that he was to describe to the Commission much later. Rather, he is reported to have told the FBI on the day of the assassination that he saw Oswald on the first floor at the same time he later told the Commission he saw Oswald on the sixth floor. This FBI report was not published by the Commission or mentioned in the Warren Report. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION Date 11/23/63 CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS, 2511 Cochran Street, advised he was employed by the Texas School Book Depository, Houston and Elm Street, from October 1, 1963, to present time. GIVENS said he has worked at this same position as a wrapper on several occasions prior to this employment. On November 22, 1963, GIVENS worked on the sixth floor of the building until about 11:30 A.M. when he used the elevator to travel to the first floor where he used the restroom at about 11:35 A.M. or 11:40 A.M. GIVENS then walked around on the first floor until 12 o’clock noon, at which time he walked onto the sidewalk and stood for several minutes, then walked to the Classified Parking Lot at Elm and Records Street. GIVENS then walked to Main Street to watch the parade and after th President and the group had passed, he walked back to the parking lot, at which time he heard several shots fired from the direction of the building at which he is employed. He attempted to return to work but was told that he had been released for the balance of the day. GIVENS advised that a white male, known as LEE, was employed in the same building and worked as a wrapper or order filler. He said he saw this same person’s picture on television on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, who was supposed to have been the person being investigated for the shooting of the President. LEE worked on all floors of the building, and on November 22, 1963, GIVENS recalls observing LEE working on the fifth floor during the morning filling orders. LEE was standing by the elevator in the building at 11:30 A.M. when GIVENS went to the first floor. - - When he started down in the elevator, LEE yelled at him to close the gates on the elevator so that he (LEE) could have the elevator returned to the sixth floor. GIVENS said that during the past few days LEE had commented that he rode to work with a boy named WESLEY. GIVENS said all employees enter the back door of the building when JACK DOUGHERTY, the foreman opens the door at about 7 A.M. On the morning of November 22, 1963, GIVENS observed LEE reading a newspaper in the domino room where the employees eat lunch about 11:50 A.M. _______________________________________________________________________ JD: The important things about this report is that there is not one thing in it about Givens going back up for his smokes and seeing Oswald on the Sixth Floor. As we shall see, the 11: 50 time can be disputed, as it was later by Pat Speer. But its clear that Givens did not go up to the sixth floor at 11:55 from this.

This is what I mean about these guys. They do the things they say we do. First there was Tague. Oh he really did not say that he was too far away etc etc. Baloney. That is what he said. Now, here comes Givens, probably one of the worst witnesses you can imagine. Here is a guy who changed his story! He first said he last saw LHO on the first floor to saying he now saw him on the sixth floor. No problem though. We just erase the first testimony off the record. Sylvia Meagher first exposed this lie and how the Dallas Police predicted he could be suborned. Pat Speer then took it even further. When you have to stoop this low, then you don't have a case.

This is really fascinating and Payette just overlooks it like a leaf in the wind in Colorado: You never wonder why, if JFK is expected at the Trade Mart at 12:15, and passing by the TSBD 5-10 mins before that, our little shooter is not even up put on the 6th floor until after 12:15? You should during out the actual exhibits David and let Payette take a look at them.

Parnell is simply ridiculous. Bobby Kennedy also remained silent, which is not surprising since he was more involved with the next generation of plots than even JFK. The IG report exonerates RFK and JFK in the CIA/Mafia plots to kill Castro. And so does the interview for the Church Committee with the guy who co wrote it. Please do not tell me you are not aware of this? The last stages of the CIA plots were Roselli and Harvey, and then Cubela. Geez Tracy think Harvey and RFK were in bed with Roselli? One of the guys RFK was trying to put in jail? Plus Harvey hated Bobby's guts. Cubela wanted proof of sanction from the White House. Helms knew he could not get it so he sent an impersonator. But this is just plain silliness bare of any factual underpinning. For instance, the CIA had to brief RFK on the plots. And they said that the longer we talked the harder he was grinding his teeth. I mean, pulease. How many times does Parnell have to slip on a banana peel before he realizes he should read up a bit. I mean, Paul Hoch----- of all people!

How anyone can write down what Payette did above about LHO getting to work that day and completely ignore the fact that they had a dress rehearsal in Chicago three weeks previous to the one that worked is simply and utterly amazing. This is why I compare him to Specter. That is something he would do. The truth is that JFK was not going to make it out of 1963. Its that simple. They tried to kill him three times and the last one succeeded. In a courtroom, you would be able to admit this as evidence of previous intent. Intent is important in a murder case. Can you imagine putting Vallee on the stand? And he starts talking about who he was, what he did with the exiles, and what he was doing on the day of the attempt? And it all echoes who Oswald was. Just a coincidence right? Wrongo.

BTW, I will never ever click through to any of these links to his site. Because I learned the last time that he is still using the completely discredited CBLA test to prop up the Single Bullet Fantasy. Yessiree, after he said you did not need it. The fact that he still uses it shows you that you darn well do need it even thought its been exposed as a hoax. But that is how desperate they are.

Carlier can you really buy this? This is what I am saying. In a court of law, which is what Santos is saying, you would show the Z film. You would then say: this clearly shows that JFK is hit when he emerges from behind the sign. He is then clearly struck at 313. You put Tague on the stand, and he says I heard the first shot. Then a bullet hit the curb in front of me and the debris flew up and hit me in the face. That is the missed shot. After the back shot. Which sticks you with three shots in 5.6 seconds. No rifleman has ever duplicated that feat without cheating. The WC cheated and CBS cheated, for the simple reasons that they knew it could not be done under normal conditions. The WC knew this which is why they tried to time their 2 sets of tests for six seconds. Then I would bring Craig Roberts on and he would relate what the greatest sniper of the VIetnam War said to him: Carlos Hathcock did it under real conditions and he could not do it. I would then ask Craig: How many certified kills did Hathcock have? Over 90 How many uncertified? Over 200 What did the Viet Cong do to try and get rid of him? Put a bounty on his head How long did he hold the record for the longest kill shot ever by a sniper? over 20 years How far away was he? A mile and half After that your case would be toast.

Tell that to Francois. That guy is so out of it he is up to over eight seconds. And why stop there. Its very simple, the Z film is their evidence, Kennedy is hit in the back, Tague heard that shot. Then at 313 JFK is hit in the skull. Do the arithmetic and its 5.6 seconds.

Joe: Martens was a Grade A cover up artist about the whole JFK case and his close friend Dave Ferrie. And he was that way from the very start, back in 1967. I would not trust anything he said about either subject. When a guy stonewalls you that hard, he is hiding something.

Sorry about that one about the Z film, that is what I recalled Bugliosi saying. You and the WC can do all you can to say, "but if", "well maybe", "it could be" etc etc. But Tague said he heard the first shot. We all know what JFK looks like coming out from behind the sign. He was obviously hit. Tague heard that hit. Then comes Z 313. That is your evidence. You and the WC can make up all kinds of conditionals and improbabilities, but that is what is on the film. If you say the film is genuine, and you do, you are stuck with it. Are you really going to say that JFK was hit at 167 and he did not register a reaction until he is behind the sign? That is baloney. And you know it. A major problem for the other side has always been that 6 second time frame. The WC itself used it for both sets of tests they ran. Which means they knew that was the time frame. Realizing what a problem it would pose when other people read the report, they stuck that page in it that DVP uses. Knowing that the Z film would wreck that qualification, but gambling that no one would go to DC to watch it. Because when you watch it, and when you understand what Tague said, the time frame is six seconds. And it gets even worse when you use the actual rifle--which as we know, is the wrong one.

BTW, the story that Kirk refers to above near the end should have gone viral. But not only has it not, but now people over at Politico, Washington Post Jr. are mocking the story. As Kirk says it goes to the heart of Trump's fairy tale about his success. He became extremely wealthy because he and his family cheated the government by lying about their assets. But the story just did not catch on. I have no idea why? Is this how much the media worships success?

I doubt it. At the AARC conference in 2014, Blakey did not appear on the same panel as they did.

Davey do you know how to count? Going with your scenario of three shots: No one will ever say that the shot in the back was the third shot. Not with that scenario. Now when Tague heard the first shot, which he says he did, that is the shot he heard. Which leaves Z 313 as the third shot. As you can see above, 5.6 seconds is their time span with the Tague hit included. Something Hoover did not want to admit at all. And the WC did not want to include either. Until they just could not cover it up anymore. BTW, if that WC excerpt that Davey posts, is it not incredible that those cover up artists do not refer to the Z film at all? In fact, if I recall correctly, they do not mention the film in the 888 page report. Bugliosi trying to defend that in RP is one of the unintentionally funny parts of his book. (Which is saying something, since a lot of it is risible.) But when you time this out with the Z film, that is you figure in their idea of the oak tree obstruction, then you divide the elapsed frames until the head shot, you come out with 5.6 seconds. I do not believe any of that BS myself, but I am just working in the confines of the Single Bullet Fantasy. Which traps them every time.