Steve Rosen

Paul, George Joannides was a CIA case officer. Assets and agents have case officers. Kent/Gupton may have had a supervisory position over Joannides, but that is not certain. I don't think Kent would be considered Joannides's case officer in any sense. From what is known about JM/WAVE, Joannides likely reported to Helms, Phillips, Ted Shackley, and Dave Morales, depending on the project. Steve

Paul, Thanks for the kind words. I always enjoy your contributions here. You'd think Angleton & Phillips might like each other, both being bright, talented writers, WWII vets, & rising stars in the early Agency years. But somehow, animus crept in. In his bio The Night Watch, Phillips describes Angleton in very unflattering terms. He also wrote that he didn't see or meet Angleton until Phillips was at HQ as Chief of the Western Hemisphere Division in the early 1970's, which is almost assuredly not true. For one, Anne Goodpasture places both of them at a retirement party for their mutual friend Win Scott in 1969 (see Jeff Morley's book Our Man in Mexico). If you read Angleton's Congressional testimonies, he says Phillips was honest but not a very good operations officer. Quite a slam putting that on the record. I found another source where Phillips warned a fellow officer that Angleton was dangerous & to be avoided. So in my view, a natural question would be: Why did these two paragons of intelligence seemingly not like each other? It could easily be attributed to personality differences. Or, it could be a work-related point of contention. Mexico City & the files of Lee Harvey Oswald appear to be a point where their professional interests could have intersected. Phillips was working on at least one anti-FPCC operation which very well might have targeted or used Oswald in some way, with DRE assets in New Orleans, or in Mexico City. Angleton and his CI/SIG office had exclusive access to both the Cuban & Russian components of Oswald's file. (See John Newman's book Oswald & the CIA, & Lisa Pease's essay on Angleton in The Assassinations for a primer there.) For me, it's hard to draw any firm conclusions on the implications of Veciana's new statement. If in fact Phillips was meeting Oswald in Dallas, it could have been an authorized anti-FPCC operation (or some other legitimate purpose). If Phillips knew Oswald was to be involved in some way with the assassination of JFK, it would be terrible tradecraft to be seen with Oswald. Phillips took accusations & heat for years for his alleged meeting with Oswald in Dallas. Whether Oswald was the source of the mutual disdain Phillips & Angleton seemed to have shared is up for debate. More research is needed on both men relative to Oswald & each other. Larry Hancock's analysis in this thread is a nice starting point & seems to make good sense to me. As for Harvey & Hunt running the JFK assassination, I'm not sure. In this Forum, David Sanchez Morales & Rip Robertson have been suggested as reasonable candidates to have run any such operation - if one actually existed. James Richards, Zach Robertson, Lee Forman, & Larry Hancock have the best posts on that speculative subject throughout the Education Forum (and Larry on his blog - I don't have the link handy). I'd definitely recommend searching their posts & reviving any threads of interest with your always on-point questions. Thanks for your interest - as well as that of Chris, Tommy, Larry & others viewing & posting on this timely & unresolved topic. Keep it up. -- Steve

Paul, Those are good observations. Phillips and Angleton did not like each other which can be conclusively verified in several written sources. Such a fallout could be personality differences, or the fact that one of them felt wronged by the other for a legitimate operation surrounding Oswald (say an anti-FPCC operation, which existed) that was later co-opted by another faction or department within the agency. All educated speculation of course and likely impossible to resolve at this date. But who knows? Many thought that the Bishop issue was hopeless and here we are with fresh information to discuss from 11/22/13. Stranger things, indeed ... We should all consider that Phillips meeting Veciana and Oswald, if in fact true, may actually cut against Phillips's knowing involvement in 11/22/63, for the obvious reason that no operations officer worth his salt (and Phillips by all accounts was a pillar) would meet an asset they knew would later be used as an assassin or patsy, depending on one's view of Oswald. The counter argument could be that Phillips was incredibly sloppy, which doesn't seem to be his style. Brash & self-motivated, maybe, but not careless & self-destructive, by most accounts. As well - we should not necessarily fault Antonio Veciana for not speaking earlier. He was shot in the head in 1976 in what was described as an assassination attempt, shortly after testifying to Congress. What would you do after that? Keep digging. Who knows what other skeletons may creep up? -- Steve

Larry, I'm seeking Dan Hardway's permission to post further corroboration. Steve

On November 22, 2013, Antonio Veciana confirmed in writing that David Atlee Phillips was the man he knew as Maurice Bishop and who met Oswald in September 1963. Letter below courtesy of Dan Hardway and Marie Fonzi. As Dan Hardway rightly noted today - why didn't Veciana confirm this in 1978 when it could have blown the case wide open? For the nonmembers who can't view attachments, the letter says: --- November 22, 2013 Dear Marie Fonzi: You may publish the following statement from me: "Maurice Bishop, my CIA contact agent was David Atlee Phillips. Phillips or Bishop was the man I saw with Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas on September 1963." Best regards, [Antonio Veciana signature] Antonio Veciana --- This seems quite significant. It still holds true that multiple officers used the names Maurice and Morris Bishop, but Veciana's clear admission that Phillips was the Bishop he knew and who he saw with Oswald has wide implications. - Steve

Nice find, David. Shackley was the expert. - Steve

There are a few documents at the National Archives JFK Collection on Harry J. Dean that aren't on www.MaryFerrell.org. There is also one HSCA document on Dean that is "postponed in full". It is a 1977 memo to Robert K. Tanenbaum, chief investigator under Richard Sprague, about an interview with Harry J. Dean (presumably) done by Kenneth Klein, about Dean, the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and the FBI. These documents can easily be found searching the online JFK NARA database, using the expert search, for Harry and Dean and "Referred" in the Restrictions box. See http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/search.html - Steve

Dave, Yes, I read your comment about David Lifton's interview, twice now. I've also read about it elsewhere. I haven't heard the interview, and so I put no stock in it. As well, there are two possible Hurts we know of. The totality of the evidence suggests a call was attempted by Oswald, in my view. I'll remain skeptical about John Hurt's alleged drunk dialing Oswald in jail. Steve

The Raleigh call is credible and worthy of study by anyone interested in Lee H. Oswald, in my view. I have doubts about John Hurt's wife explaining it away that Hurt made a drunken call to Oswald in jail. Call me a skeptic. Here are a few links from Dr. Grover B. Proctor, Jr., who did the deepest investigation in this area: http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk80.html http://www.groverproctor.us/jfk/jfk-douglass.html Here is an article: http://m.indyweek.com/indyweek/jfk-oswald-and-the-raleigh-connection/Content?oid=3192079 And a few Ed Forum links. There is good stuff within from Jim Root (where has he been?), James Richards, and others: The "Raleigh Call": http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2278 New John B. Hurt Info: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3391&page=1 Japanese Linguist John Hurt: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2967&page=1 John B. Hurt: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=8571 John David Hurt: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3041 Oswald's 30 minute call: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2653 Indyweek article discussion: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19683

"Taney, we're in way over our heads here. And there's no Hogan to protect us." - Cliff Fenton to Robert K. Tanenbaum when Tanenbaum arrived in D.C. to lead the HSCA under Richard Sprague. Fenton was referring to Frank Hogan, a legendary New York City D.A. whom they both worked under. Quote from Robert K. Tanenbaum, J.D., "An Analysis of Government Misconduct: The House Select Committee on Assassinations", Passing the Torch Conference, Duquesne University, Pittsburgh, PA. October 18, 2013. Lecture. Cliff Fenton, streetwise and honest detective, pictured below.

Thanks, John. This was a very good talk by Professor Mellen at the Wecht Conference. She is a good researcher and she found a number of interesting details, such as a CIA memo stating that Clay Shaw was a highly paid contract agent for a number of years. And about Donald Denesyla, a CIA operations officer in the Soviet Russia Division, who reviewed a CIA debriefing report on Oswald, which they always denied doing. Worth reading. -- Steve

I found the Wecht Conference as a whole exceptional. Dr. Robert N. McClelland, M.D., was very compelling and credible about what he saw at Parkland from just feet away. Dan Hardway, Esq. and Robert K. Tanenbaum, J.D. gave stunning presentations on how their HSCA street level investigations were stymied and stonewalled at every turn by the very government agencies they were legally charged to examine. Jeff Morley, David Talbot, Jim Lesar, Esq., Joan Mellen, Larry Sabato, and others gave high quality and useful talks on JFK's history, legacy, and too many still classified files, along with how to locate and demand them. Morley's myth shattering and NARA search techniques, and Talbot's lively preview of his upcoming Allen Dulles bio The Devil's Chessboard were highlights. Russ Baker spoke potently about the media. I missed Bill Kelly's presentation on the Air Force One tapes, but I had the pleasure of meeting Bill in person and will catch his work on the streaming video which will be made available. Dr. Cyril H. Wecht, M.D., J.D. and Oliver Stone were erudite, fiery, and very witty. The speaker order needed help, including more overview and historical context the first two days, when more students were present. There was esoteric and detailed forensics which undoubtedly lost some. By far the most interesting and thoughtful continuing education courses I've ever taken. -- Steve

Vince, what Secret Service points did Governor Ventura bring up? - Steve

Here is the link to the Smithsonian article that Larry is referring to. http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/When-the-FBI-Spent--Decades-Hunting-for-a-Soviet-Spy-on-Its-Staff-224930002.html?c=y&page=1 It's written by David Wise, who wrote Molehunt about the CIA's search for a Soviet agent within its midst. -- Steve

The preface is a good introduction to what promises to be an interesting case study. Bill Simpich writes that State Secret will focus on Mexico City, James Angleton, Anne Goodpasture, Bill Harvey, and the enigmatic David Morales. All four persons are worthy of study in the field of intelligence history generally and their relation to the JFK case specifically. The preface is packed with intriguing questions and provocative ideas from a historical and legal perspective, grounded in documented sources. It can be dense material for those not well versed in the subject. As well, some paragraphs don't quite transition smoothly which affects the readability. However, those mild criticisms aside, I look forward to delving into State Secret each week. I also agree with Bill Simpich that people need to roll up their sleeves and research hard cases like this one. -- Steve

Interesting picture of Ted Shackley courtesy of Wikipedia: Thomas Polgar (far right) takes command of the CIA station in Saigon, January 1972. At left is former Station Chief Ted Shackley, heading back to a new assignment in Washington. In the middle is General Creighton Abrams, head of the Military Assistance Command Vietnam (MACV).

Bill, Thanks for the November 18 Tampa plot information, and for letting NARA know about Secret Service agent Gerald Blaine's private files. More and more when I look up a topic on 20th century intelligence history, I am lead to your website. Good work. What's the latest on Blaine's Tampa plot or Tampa advance report files? Are they available to the public yet? Do we know if Blaine turned in any Chicago plot files related to Thomas Arthur Vallee and a four man Latino sniper team? I haven't read Blaine's book The Kennedy Detail, but a search through it shows that he goes out of his way to discredit SS Agent Abraham Bolden, who tried to blow the whistle to the Warren Commission about SS agent laxity on JFK's detail, and the Chicago plot or plots to kill JFK on November 2, 1963 (Vallee and the Latino team might have been separate plots). See inside Blaine's book: http://books.google.com/books?id=ypRnkphji0sC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22the+kennedy+detail%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5fZAUrj9CtKl4APk8YGABA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAA A search of his book seems to show that Blaine dismisses the 4-man Latino sniper team - partly since Abraham Bolden was one source for that information - even though documents and law enforcement confirm it existed; downplay potential Chicago sniper and patsy ex-Marine Thomas Arthur Vallee; and either adds or confuses some of the facts of Vallee's case (not mentioning Vallee's anti-JFK statements or alleged training with Cuban exiles, while bringing forth new unverified info that a landlady discovered collages in Vallee's apartment. A landlady or maid did stumble upon the four man Latino sniper team's boarding house, but that is an entirely separate incident). I'd like to see if Blaine produced any files or information contrary to what Abraham Bolden said and wrote about the Chicago plot of 11/2/63, Vallee, and the Latino sniper team. A number of files on Thomas A. Vallee are still withheld at NARA. The best study of the Chicago Plot is the excellent article by Edwin Black, from The Chicago Independent (Nov 1975). Several versions of Black's article can be found here: http://archive.org/details/TheChicagoPlotToKillJfk The PDF is 2 parts. As noted, there is good information on both the Chicago and Tampa plots in Ultimate Sacrifice (2005) and Legacy of Secrecy (2008) by Tom Hartmann and Lamar Waldron, no matter what one makes of their JFK murder theories. And try as some might, Abraham Bolden cannot be easily discredited by claiming he was convicted of bribery (his chief witness later admitted giving perjured testimony in Bolden's case), nor can Edwin Black's meticulous, thorough reporting be attacked for lack of credibility. --- The article Four Days Before Dallas: JFK in Tampa by Frank DeBenedictis appeared in the magazine Tampa Bay History (Fall/Winter 1994). It is worth reading, though based mainly on newspaper accounts. The author sought law enforcement comment. The issue can be found on the University of South Florida Libraries website. The link directly to a PDF of the whole issue is: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdigital.lib.usf.edu%3A8080%2Ffedora%2Fget%2Fusfldc%3AT06-v16n2_94-000%2FDOCUMENT%3Fsearch_terms%3Dfeatured%2520a%2520faith%2520in%2520the%2520material%2520growth&ei=ko86UqDVMLil4APU2oCQAg&usg=AFQjCNGsNPuvwLN-qbX5UVkhCM_K5Gz5sQ Vince Palamara has the Tampa newspaper article on the threat and a part of a Secret Service Protective Research document about one John William Warrington, who sent 5 threatening letters to JFK just prior to his Tampa visit on November 18. Warrington wrote he'd be "lying in ambush." (I don't believe Warrington is significant today, unlike Thomas Vallee, but the document is interesting.) http://vincepalamara.com/2012/07/09/111863-tampa-fl-threats/ -- Steve

James, thanks for the great picture. Do you have a date or location for it? Anyone know what kind of car that is in the garage? -- Steve

Scott, Great to see you here posting on this interesting topic. Your many articles and books Cigar City Mafia and The Silent Don about Trafficante and the Florida mob scene are great. I hope you'll comment here or on other important Ed Forum threads discussing Santos' alleged involvement with or comments regarding JFK's murder, his dangerous associate Eladio de Valle, and the Tampa attempt kill JFK on November 18, 1963. Did Santos deal with any particular government operative that you know of? Cheers, Steve

Indeed, always good info to be found at Larry's site: http://larryhancock.wordpress.com Rip Robertson was also a beast in college football.

James, File this under "Better late than never" ... The tall man is Colonel William P. Grieves, aka "Pappy", aka "P", aka "Colonel Bill." Grieves was born in 1913. ... Colonel Grieves is pictured talking to David Morales in pictures 1 and 3, and likely Special Branch police, around 1969-1970. The listed source for the pictures of Grieves and Morales is: http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Essay_-_The_BBCs_Flawed_RFK_Story In the second picture, Grieves is walking behind National Police Field Forces chief Colonel Nguyen Van Dai, February 1970. Unknown individual behind Grieves. Picture courtesy Douglas C. Valentine. See: http://www.douglasvalentine.com/the_phoenix_program_11712.htm http://www.amazon.com/The-Phoenix-Program-Douglas-Valentine/dp/0595007384

James, File this under "Better late than never" ... The tall man is Colonel William P. Grieves, aka "Pappy", aka "P", aka "Colonel Bill." Grieves was born in 1913. He served as a Colonel in G-2, the US Army's Military Intelligence Corps from 1935-1965. In 1958, Grieves was the Executive Officer (XO) of the XVIII Airborne Corps Artillery (another source has him as the Commander). That year, he co-founded the US Army Parachute team and was considered a member for 1958. Grieves issued the first order which implemented the free fall parachuting club. Known as the STRAC/US Army Sport Parachute Team (SPT), it was active between 1959 and 1961. Their nickname is the "Golden Knights". It is still believed that Grieves never became a Brigadier General (BG) because of his connection to free fall parachuting. Instead Colonel Bill took on more shadowy work. Grieves came to Vietnam around 1965, on the cusp of retirement, with the mission of training the South Vietnamese Field Police under AID, where he was listed as a Security Officer and was stationed in Saigon. Grieves clashed with the CIA management and contractors like Ted Serong, who wanted the controlling hand on the Field Police program Grieves was attempting to establish. This work put him in front of David Morales, whose heavy presence in Vietnam was nominally under CIA Saigon station chief Ted Shackley (1968-1972). Grieves is pictured below in 1958 with the US Army Parachute Team. -- Steve Sources: Douglas Valentine, The Phoenix Program (2000), numerous pages. Who's Who in the CIA, Julius Mader / Thomas Bergner (1968). http://www.goldenknightsaa.com/ (Thanks as well to the inimitable Zach Robertson). See: http://www.douglasvalentine.com/the_phoenix_program_11712.htm http://www.amazon.com/The-Phoenix-Program-Douglas-Valentine/dp/0595007384

David, Great point. You are of course correct, and such family observations should be given due weight. I have the utmost admiration for Gaeton Fonzi and The Last Investigation. His HSCA work was passionate and his book is brilliant. I would respectfully submit that Fonzi's absolute tenacity and doggedness in pursuing Mr. Bishop had a small but important flaw: Fonzi did not consider or discover that the Bishop name was used by multiple people at the Agency. He was so sure in his heart that the Bishop as described by Antonio Veciana was in fact David Atlee Phillips. Maybe it was. Veciana was ambiguous and noncommittal on that point. I believe that Fonzi's conviction was honest, that it was based on more than just the police sketch, and that his theory encompassed a number of similarities in the Veciana-described Mr. Bishop, and the Agency positions that Dave Phillips held. But as Zach Robertson correctly pointed out on page one of this thread, there are perhaps other Bishop candidates, besides Phillips, who served in Cuba & the Caribbean, worked anti-Castro operations, associated with David Morales, and dealt with Cuban exile fighters. Again, once you consider that the Bishop name was a pseudonym used by more than one person, the incessant confusion and denial and double talk surrounding the "true identity" of Maurice/Morris Bishop actually makes sense. Good places to start investigating the Bishop name are on this forum, and at MaryFerrell.org. - Steve

James, Thanks for that great post. It seems like eons since such original and interesting information was posted on the Ed Forum. It is a welcome return to form. I do hope other researchers take note and brave these icy and dark waters. David, I'd buy a ticket to see your Bayo-Pawley Op TILT movie. Keep at it. --- Anti-Castro Cuban exiles were indeed operating in the Congo following JFK's assassination, fighting Castro's soldiers and intel officers in the Cuban DGI. One such instance was Operation Low Beam. Stories are just emerging about the Cuban pilots. Rip Robertson trained many of these pilots, presumably in covert tactics. It is probably obvious but worth stating that many of the Cuban exile pilots were very likely just that - daring, dedicated pilots. Others, who knows. See above. Dr. Frank Villafaña wrote a great study on these Cuban pilots called Cold War in the Congo, and Rip is discussed a bit. By the way, if you ask Dr. Frank nicely (and pay), he will sign and send you his book. Below are some links of interest related to this topic. - Steve --- Excellent thread: Rip Robertson in the Congo: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3406 --- "It was going to be Cuban against Cuban." http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Exiled-Cuban-Pilots-Remember-the-Congo-War.html --- Cold War in the Congo: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1412847664 --- http://www.asecretlegacy.com --- http://www.examiner.com/article/cuban-exiles-the-cia-and-the-congo ---

Count me interested, James. As such I am reviving this moribund but important topic. I believe James's original post in this topic concerned pictures taken at Main and Houston. Those pictures can be found under Rip Robertson at the fascinating site Familiar Faces In Dealey Plaza II (James please correct me if I'm wrong). http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/ Rip Robertson is vastly under-researched. Perhaps because he lived like a ghost. Among top operatives, he was a legend: soldier, trainer, covert warrior, compadre, wild adventurer. The official Bay of Pigs history noted serious discussion of unleashing Rip Robertson on Havana, as he was considered the one guy who could just maybe slip in and neutralize Fidel Castro. Interested folks should search for Rip Robertson information within the Ed Forum. There is good stuff on him.