Karl Kinaski

I fear we have to: quote Prouty "The secret team": Typical of his (Dulles) method is the way in which he organized his book in 1962. The only intelligence function of general significance not covered in the language of the National Security Act of 1947 was that of collection. Characteristically, the only intelligence function given any chapter heading emphasis -- and it is given two chapters -- in his book, The Craft of Intelligence, is collection. This was so typical of the man. He would have everyone believe that if he repeated something often enough and if he pounded something out often enough, sooner or later everyone else would give up, and he would have what he wanted. His book would convince anyone that the most important Congressional mandate to the CIA was that of collection; yet that function was not named and was specifically omitted in the law. The CIA most certainly did get into the collection business and has augmented the collection capability of the military and of the State Department. It was this same bulldog ability of Allen Dulles that brought the CIA into the clandestine operations business, and once in, that made it the primary business of the Agency. Here he was, working against all of the constraints that had been set up against him. He simply worked like the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon; he eroded all opposition. close quote One of the reasons Dulles was in Texas was to promote "The Craft of Intelligence"...a book of zero value... KK

It’s complex Pat, Fetzer seems to be creeping into anti-Semitism via progressive anti-Zionism, Sid Walker, who fortunately has not posted here for a few years told us he went through a similar path and I suspect Fetzer’s friend Kevin Barrett did as well. An increase in anti-Semitism is but one of the many ill effects of Israel’s abusive policies. I don’t think Fetzer wants to own upto his true feelings perhaps least all to himself. He pictures and portrays himself as a progressive and in most cases that accurate. But anti-Semitism is incompatible with such a portrayal. With his current stance he can still tell himself and others ‘I’m anti-Zionist not anti-Semitic’ and his sycophantic followers will buy it. But even if he would admit his true feelings to himself, I doubt he would advertise it because he is not so “tone deaf” as to fail to realize that would undermine his credibility. As for him “blam[ing] it on the Jewish media”, though I don’t know him doing so himself he gave his full endorsement to “Pastore’s” book which did just that and over the years supported others making the same claim. At least since 2003 and 4 (respectively) he has hosted articles entitled “Is this what happened?” and “The Fatal Flaw”. According to the former: For at least forty years this group of traitors…has controlled the U.S. government by subversion of its democratic institutions, has manipulated a gullible American population and the political leadership of other countries by the skillful use of propaganda (with the help of shamelessly compliant — and Jewish-dominated — "news" organizations), has ruthlessly exploited the economic resources of the Earth for its own profit… […] …Thus the people of the U.S. had to be hoodwinked into supporting a new "War", and the bogeyman of "militant Arab fundamentalists" (helped greatly by a Jewish-dominated mainstream media… […] Probably she [America] should rein in the domination-obsessed Jewish supremacist elites of Wall Street and media, part company with Israeli apartheid. The latter made reference to “America's notoriously brainwashed Zionist press” and “…that Jewish claptrap hate crime against Muslims that appeared on NBC the other night” So he has been receptive to such ideas for a long time. His defense when I brought these articles up on a Yahoo discussion group was that “my web site represents many points of view on many subjects, such as 9/11, where I not only host links to criticisms of the government but also to defenses of the government, where no one could reasonably be expected to endorse them all” But he failed to further respond when I: 1) pointed out that he wrote most of the content on the site and thus presumably endorsed the rest especially when its POV was similar to his and 2) asked him to point out any “defenses of the government” hosted there. http://www.assassinationscience.com/wtc.html http://www.assassinationscience.com/TheFatalFlaw.pdf http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FETZERclaimsDEBUNK/message/2079 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FETZERclaimsDEBUNK/message/2102 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FETZERclaimsDEBUNK/messages/2103?viscount=-30&l=1 The title of Hitlers first book is MEIN KAMPF...not mien..

In your dreams, Dr. Fetzer. The backyard photos are perfectly genuine, but no serious person thinks they prove anything remotely relevant to the JFK assassination. hahahha...good laugh...IF they are genuine, those pics would't prove that Oswald owned a rifle and a pistol? and that would not be relevant to the assassination?... KK

Is there anywhere Sister Ratched to take care of Francois? Seriously Francois: Can you tell me what your goal is? Here? Are you a kind kind of Incarnation of Earl Warren? I fear I start to believe in transmigration...to me your are an eerie dude... KK

Oh--this is a rather big "Claim" and I guess there are very few nuggets...I simply wouldn´t have the time to dig up this mud of lies, errors and hypocrisies.....and I have a lot of time... @R. Morrow: good list, thx... KK PS I would put from the list: THE GREAT ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX...this book is alright to me...

Carson had no clue that Big Jim had this pic (of the three tramps) with him: it was a complete surprise for Carson, when G took it out of his case...thats why Carson grabbed Garrisons arm in panic! A funny example of censorship back in the sixties... regards KK Hey, does anybody have video of Garrison's Carson appearance? I wish I would have one. I took the story from Garrisons book "On the trail of the assassins." LKK

Carson had no clue that Big Jim had this pic (of the three tramps) with him: it was a complete surprise for Carson, when G took it out of his case...thats why Carson grabbed Garrisons arm in panic! A funny example of censorship back in the sixties... regards KK

LBJ was no mastermind at all of the assassination. The only thing he was told at that party was, that something bad would happen to JFK the next day...and that this was a "promise not a threat"...Johnson was out of the loop. You do not give LBJ all the facts of the assassination of his predecessor, if your intention is to control the LBJ-presidency. AND they, the secret team, controlled his presidency. LBJ never knew what really happened in Dealy Plaza that day...to call LBJ the mastermind of the assassination is the same baloney if one calls Castro the mastermind of the assassination, or the mafia...LBJ was just another ball in that game...the players were beyond his reach... regards KK Thanks for your review. . . you might find a more effective way to do so, though, is to first read the book. Then you can explain to me how LBJ was "out of the loop." You'll need to rebut each way that I have identified as him being not only within the loop but the single individual within it that originated it. Have a good day. (The book will be available for ordering in the next few days). Sorry, but that rather a was pre-view not a review...;-) Seriously: the men who killed Kennedy were the global players who won WW 2, with connections all over the world...the very same men who founded the OSS and later the CIA...Johnson was very much a national politician...foreign policy was not one of his professions...Johnson knew nothing about the Intelligence Community which was running the Cold War...he was just another toy in the Withe House...the Kennedy murder was very much an international thing...maybe somehow orchestrated with the murder of the Diems and the impeachment of Chruschtschew... LBJ, of course, was one of the beneficiaries of the murder. But do you really think he selected the crime zone, the patsy Oswald, created the Lone nut cover and selected the members of the WC (which to me is just a public-relation commission to sell the Cover)by himself? (The WC members were recommended to him)...your thesis is similar to the thesis of E.H.Hunts "deathbed-confession", (and the thesis of HISTORY CHANNELS banned documentary)a la: it was "bad boy Johnson"...it's to simple a thesis to understand that typical cold war crime...which such simple "salvations" one rather buries the truth instead of uncover it...Castro, Johnson, the Mafia, the KGB, sorry: but I crossed these bridges long ago... But thats my personal view...may your book sell well... regards KK

LBJ was no mastermind at all of the assassination. The only thing he was told at that party was, that something bad would happen to JFK the next day...and that this was a "promise not a threat"...Johnson was out of the loop. You do not give LBJ all the facts of the assassination of his predecessor, if your intention is to control the LBJ-presidency. AND they, the secret team, controlled his presidency. LBJ never knew what really happened in Dealy Plaza that day...to call LBJ the mastermind of the assassination is the same baloney if one calls Castro the mastermind of the assassination, or the mafia...LBJ was just another ball in that game...the players were beyond his reach... regards KK

If the three tramps where those harmless men mentioned above, why then the strange behavior of Jonny Carson when Jim Garrison was trying to show this pic on his show back in the sixties? Carson was trying to deter Garrison showing that pic and said something to the effect that the TV-viewers could not see the pic (technically)...Garrison said: I am sure they can, trying to show the pic again only to found out that the TV Camera in front of him was off--the TV audience was shown a distance-shot instead... KK

Can you imagine the JFK research-legend Mark Lane reason with Francoise or Paul Baker? RFLMAO! KK

That the last shot sounded "different" is one of the things favoring a shot from the storm drain. A shot from there would also leave a gunpowder smell at street level. Jack I always thought the "gunpowder" Yarborough (passenger of LBJs car) smelt, came from the propelling charge of the Umbrella weapon, and is a strong indication for the use of such a weapon...(causing the entry wound in JFKs throat "too small for a bullet hole..." (BTW: Umbrella man, waving "cuban" and the two boys near them are the only four very close eyewitnesses which identity is unknown down to the present day...) KK

Yeah, this is a good idea... Kk

I watched the videos. One can observe what a dangerous snake this W. F. Buckley junior was...but Lane acts calm as hell...despite his pipe seems a bit out of order...

I do not think, that this is a good idea, because other persons often add things which the two debaters are not aware of... BTW: "Restriction" always sound bad regarding to any forum..." It would be a step backwards... KK

Becaus he knows that laughter is the best medicine? (Don't be angry with "Francois" the jester -ribbit...ribbit...) KK

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Quote Pig on Leash, by D. Lifton In 1971, Daniel Ellsberg became famous for releasing the Pentagon Papers. I (Lifton) repeatedly tried to flatter him (Groden), telling him that he could be the “Ellsberg of the Zapruder film”. Close Quote I would say R. Groden IS the Daniel Ellsberg of the Zapruder Film...why? both the [Pentagon Papers and the Zappi-Film are brilliant pieces of disinformation: forged and fabricated... (Ellsbergs boss in Vietnam was Ed Lansdale...) KK PS f. Prouty about the PP: Quote: (THE SECRET TEAM) After all but finishing the manuscript, with my inexperienced typing of some 440 pages, I sat down to a Sunday breakfast on June 13, 1971 and saw the headlines of the New York Times with its publication of the "purloined" Pentagon Papers. [Any reader of the "Pentagon Papers" should be warned that although they were commissioned on June 17, 1967, by the Secretary of Defense as "the history of United States involvement in Vietnam from World War II [sept 2, 1945] to the present" [1968], they are unreliable, inaccurate and marred by serious omissions. They are a contrived history, at best, even though they were written by a selected Task Force under Pentagon leadership.] One of the first excerpts from those papers was a TOP SECRET document that I had worked on in late 1963. Then I found more of the same. With that, I knew that I could vastly improve what I had been writing by making use of that hoard of classified material that "Daniel Ellsberg had left on the doorstep of the Times,".... Close quote

Quote Pig on Leash, by D. Lifton In 1971, Daniel Ellsberg became famous for releasing the Pentagon Papers. I (Lifton) repeatedly tried to flatter him (Groden), telling him that he could be the “Ellsberg of the Zapruder film”. Close Quote I would say R. Groden IS the Daniel Ellsberg of the Zapruder Film...why? both the Pentagon Papers and the Zappi-Film are brilliant pieces of disinformation: forged and fabricated... (Ellsbergs boss in Vietnam was Ed Lansdale...) KK

Sry it was a laps...I know it's called Pig...like the this certain bay...but concerning Robert Groden. Wasn't he Stones main- Zappi Film adviser during the making of JFK? If he is an honest man, why he let Stone put these crazy Zappi-reenactments into his movie, which I discovered a couple of years ago? Why Groden didn't say: Stop, Oliver this piece of film is bullxxxx? Just a laps, too? Hardly.. Crazy piece of Zappi-Reenactment in the Movie JFK. (scroll up and click on the tiny pic links to watch the frames of this crazy piece...) KK

Even if you are right about this particular point, Lamson, the Zappi film remains a fabrication: Reminder So for what reason you are fighting for? KK Sigh...leave it KK. So much escapes you. Give it up Lamson...I really don't know, what you are doing here...wasting your time and the time of others...is there no other playground for guys like you? BTW: what about the missing phenomenon of parallax? KK

Even if you are right about this particular point, Lamson, the Zappi film remains a fabrication: Reminder So for what reason you are fighting...? KK Even Harry D. Holmes, known as a guy who was trying to frame Oswald during his WC testimony said: Quote: Mr. Holmes.(Watching the motorcade from the Terminal Annex Building) I had a pair of 7 1/2 x 50 binoculars. They were acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not standing up. This is a short block. Mr. Belin. From Main to Elm? Mr. Holmes. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on Elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass. As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were three of them. I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car all the time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were dodging somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or something, but I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in the air. Mr. Belin. Where did you see the dust? Mr. Holmes. Off of President Kennedy and I couldn't tell you which one of the cracks of the firecracker resulted in this. Mr. Belin. Do you have any recollection of the amount of time that elapsed between each of the three sounds? Mr. Holmes. I have tried to set a time, but it just escapes me. Honestly, I couldn't say. They were rather rapid. Say 20 seconds or something like that. Mr. Belin. You mean 20 seconds elapsed between all three, or less than 20 seconds? Mr. Holmes. Possibly 20 seconds, or half a minute and then crack and kind of a lapse and then another crack. I wouldn't want to swear to that. I have tried to recall it. Mr. Belin. Was there more time between the first and the second one, or between the second and third? Mr. Holmes. I couldn't tell you that. Mr. Belin. What did you see after that? Mr. Holmes. Mr. Kennedy leaned over against his wife, Mrs. Kennedy, as this thing, firecracker, looked like, come out. The car almost came to a stop, Close quote

LOL You made my day... KK PS I am not sure about R. Groden. This witty man could be the greatest pseudo Cter and mole in the CTer Community ever...and those arrests maybe a fake, like the arrests of Lee Oswald in NOLA...to produce an image of a CTer martyr. But mole or not...anyway...I like that guy...but there IS a possibility that Groden and Mack are working hand in hand.. KK And there IS a possibility you write such things to make the whole forum look silly... Groden's been standing out on the sidewalk telling tourists not to go into the 6th Floor Museum for more than a decade. He's denounced Gary Mack at conferences and in interviews for many years. No way in heck are they working together. WHO IS ROBERT GRODEN? nEven D Lifton, who met him 40 years ago, can't answer that question... Quote Pig on leash: (Thats not the behavior of an investigator dedicated to the truth...) Who is Robert Groden? In what was to turn out to be a pattern of general evasiveness, I was never able to get straight answers to the question of who Groden was and exactly what training he had. But over the years, I acquired additional information. Of particular importance are the opening 30 pages or so of Groden’s March 1975 Rockefeller Commission testimony. From it, we learn that he is a high school drop out—leaving Forest Hills (Queens) High School in the 11th grade, and joining the Army. Although Groden claimed before the Rockefeller Commission that he completed high school (and had one year of college) in the Army, under questioning it was also revealed that he left the Army after only one year, because of a medically related discharge of a psychological nature. He then returned to the New York, worked for a record distributor, and then, at some point, went to work as an optical technician (i.e., making 35 mm slides from pictures). Jumping ahead, I now know that he worked for extended periods at EFX Laboratories, in New York, run by Weitzman, and it was Groden’s relationship with Weitzman and Weitzman’s relationship with LIFE (back around 1967) that is crucial in understanding how Groden came into possession of so much JFK-related material; and why, during the years of the HSCA, he was entrusted with films by General Counsel Blakey, films Blakey would mail him, and which he could then bring to New York—to Moe’s lab, in fact—and copy. 1972-1973: Our “Early Years” From six months or more after I first met Groden, all I had was his New Jersey phone number. I would repeatedly ask him—practically plead with him— [Pig on a Leash (2003); By David S. Lifton] 48 if he could please make me a copy of what he had; he either demurred, or stalled. As to questions of the film’s authenticity, it became very clear that he was wedded to the idea that what he had was authentic—he couldn’t conceive it were otherwise—and so that posed another problem. Groden seemed threatened by any line of inquiry that implied inauthenticity. Finally, he parted with an 8mm copy, but it was useless. I needed a good 35mm copy, but that was out of the question: He wouldn’t even part with a 16mm copy. My correspondence file with Groden for the period 1972-75 reflects the story of two people who were friends, but reveals a growing tension in the relationship, as well as a disillusionment, as I came to realize that Robert Groden was unwilling to make available his material to third parties, and had the mentality of a juvenile collector, not an investigator. He was never going to part with the items that made him special: he felt he “owned” the materials he had, and would not let anyone else have a negative or a print. His possession and access was unique, and he intended for it to stay that way. On the other hand, I never told Groden about my theory of body alteration, because (a) I was in New York to complete my book and deemed him highly unreliable, almost juvenile; and ( it was clear that he believed the autopsy photographs had been altered, and I didn’t subscribe to that at all. Anyway, it was my theory of body alteration that that drove my interest in the possibility of the Z film having been altered. That subject—Z film authenticity—I openly discussed with him, and he was adamant that the film could not have been altered. Groden constantly emphasized that the Z film he saw had material between the sprocket holes. That could only occur on the original camera, he said. Therefore, the film had to be authentic, it could not be a dupe. This particular point, which assumed greater importance years later, came up often, and became a very sore point, and all efforts to get high quality 35mm material, in order to make measurements, were rebuffed or parried. Groden viewed the assassination as a “shooting”, and the conspiracy was a conspiracy of shooters. He was always talking about “firing points.” He was particularly proud of dubbing sounds onto the sound track of a video copy, so you could hear the “bang bang bang” of shots. Dealing with Groden was like dealing with a teenager to whom the assassination was a video game, not a political event. But I tried. In 1971, Daniel Ellsberg became famous for releasing the Pentagon Papers. I repeatedly tried to flatter him, telling him that he could be the “Ellsberg of the Zapruder film”. But to no avail. The fact is: Groden had an incredible monopoly and was not about to give up the thing that made him “special” in the universe: sole access to high quality Zapruder film imagery, which in fact stemmed from his relatioinship with Weitzman. Then something happened and it involved the Nix film, taken from the opposite side of Dealy Plaza. Early on, I realized that if the car stop had been removed from the Zapruder film it must have been removed from the Nix film as well. If the Nix film could be located, perhaps precise measurements of velocity could be made, and compared with similar measurements made on the Zapruder film. I felt certain they wouldn’t agree exactly, and that would provide further evidence of film alteration. Close quote

LOL You made my day... KK PS I am not sure about R. Groden. This witty man could be the greatest pseudo Cter and mole in the CTer Community ever...and those arrests maybe a fake, like the arrests of Lee Oswald in NOLA...to produce an image of a CTer martyr. But mole or not...anyway...I like that guy...but there IS a possibility that Groden and Mack are working hand in hand.. KK And there IS a possibility you write such things to make the whole forum look silly... Groden's been standing out on the sidewalk telling tourists not to go into the 6th Floor Museum for more than a decade. He's denounced Gary Mack at conferences and in interviews for many years. No way in heck are they working together. WHO IS ROBERT GRODEN? nEven D Lifton, who met him 40 years ago, can't answer that question... Quote Big on leash: (Thats not the behavior of an investigator dedicated to the truth...) Who is Robert Groden? In what was to turn out to be a pattern of general evasiveness, I was never able to get straight answers to the question of who Groden was and exactly what training he had. But over the years, I acquired additional information. Of particular importance are the opening 30 pages or so of Groden’s March 1975 Rockefeller Commission testimony. From it, we learn that he is a high school drop out—leaving Forest Hills (Queens) High School in the 11th grade, and joining the Army. Although Groden claimed before the Rockefeller Commission that he completed high school (and had one year of college) in the Army, under questioning it was also revealed that he left the Army after only one year, because of a medically related discharge of a psychological nature. He then returned to the New York, worked for a record distributor, and then, at some point, went to work as an optical technician (i.e., making 35 mm slides from pictures). Jumping ahead, I now know that he worked for extended periods at EFX Laboratories, in New York, run by Weitzman, and it was Groden’s relationship with Weitzman and Weitzman’s relationship with LIFE (back around 1967) that is crucial in understanding how Groden came into possession of so much JFK-related material; and why, during the years of the HSCA, he was entrusted with films by General Counsel Blakey, films Blakey would mail him, and which he could then bring to New York—to Moe’s lab, in fact—and copy. 1972-1973: Our “Early Years” From six months or more after I first met Groden, all I had was his New Jersey phone number. I would repeatedly ask him—practically plead with him— [Pig on a Leash (2003); By David S. Lifton] 48 if he could please make me a copy of what he had; he either demurred, or stalled. As to questions of the film’s authenticity, it became very clear that he was wedded to the idea that what he had was authentic—he couldn’t conceive it were otherwise—and so that posed another problem. Groden seemed threatened by any line of inquiry that implied inauthenticity. Finally, he parted with an 8mm copy, but it was useless. I needed a good 35mm copy, but that was out of the question: He wouldn’t even part with a 16mm copy. My correspondence file with Groden for the period 1972-75 reflects the story of two people who were friends, but reveals a growing tension in the relationship, as well as a disillusionment, as I came to realize that Robert Groden was unwilling to make available his material to third parties, and had the mentality of a juvenile collector, not an investigator. He was never going to part with the items that made him special: he felt he “owned” the materials he had, and would not let anyone else have a negative or a print. His possession and access was unique, and he intended for it to stay that way. On the other hand, I never told Groden about my theory of body alteration, because (a) I was in New York to complete my book and deemed him highly unreliable, almost juvenile; and ( it was clear that he believed the autopsy photographs had been altered, and I didn’t subscribe to that at all. Anyway, it was my theory of body alteration that that drove my interest in the possibility of the Z film having been altered. That subject—Z film authenticity—I openly discussed with him, and he was adamant that the film could not have been altered. Groden constantly emphasized that the Z film he saw had material between the sprocket holes. That could only occur on the original camera, he said. Therefore, the film had to be authentic, it could not be a dupe. This particular point, which assumed greater importance years later, came up often, and became a very sore point, and all efforts to get high quality 35mm material, in order to make measurements, were rebuffed or parried. Groden viewed the assassination as a “shooting”, and the conspiracy was a conspiracy of shooters. He was always talking about “firing points.” He was particularly proud of dubbing sounds onto the sound track of a video copy, so you could hear the “bang bang bang” of shots. Dealing with Groden was like dealing with a teenager to whom the assassination was a video game, not a political event. But I tried. In 1971, Daniel Ellsberg became famous for releasing the Pentagon Papers. I repeatedly tried to flatter him, telling him that he could be the “Ellsberg of the Zapruder film”. But to no avail. The fact is: Groden had an incredible monopoly and was not about to give up the thing that made him “special” in the universe: sole access to high quality Zapruder film imagery, which in fact stemmed from his relatioinship with Weitzman. Then something happened and it involved the Nix film, taken from the opposite side of Dealy Plaza. Early on, I realized that if the car stop had been removed from the Zapruder film it must have been removed from the Nix film as well. If the Nix film could be located, perhaps precise measurements of velocity could be made, and compared with similar measurements made on the Zapruder film. I felt certain they wouldn’t agree exactly, and that would provide further evidence of film alteration. Close quote