Chris Newton

Thanks Jim, .45 ACP using a modified M1911 Mag (seven rounds standard). The reported velocity was 850 fps. This short clip gives a good overview: http://videos.howstu...rbine-video.htm

Thanks Mike, there are a lot of MAC-10 and MAC-11 grandchildren that would fit that description but would they have been operational and in inventory in November 1963? The Deslisle had already been used by the OSS for assassinations so it meets both those conditions. Also, my gut feeling is that there wasn't a "spray" of shots on full-auto from any location. I'm much more inclined to think that multiple shooters from several locations would be much more effective. The shooters at long range using scoped high powered (high velocity) rifles and the shooters at short range using accurate silenced weapons. The Delisle is technically a carbine so has better accuracy and range than the example you posted. What's Jack White say about the "man" you have posted? punctuation edit CN

I wanted to add a few new notes to this thread concerning my original post... While perusing other threads I found an entry by GPH in which he also posts the details of the Delisle Carbine: thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5308&st=30&p=45577&hl=delisleentry45577 And most interesting, I found this quote in which Bernice Moore attempts to summarize the statement from assassination witness Carolyn Walther: thread: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=16485 I have a couple of problems with Bernice's summary because when I went and looked at Mrs. Walther's actual statement she seemed to me to be quite an observant and astute witness and Bernice's summary doesn't actually describe what Mrs. Walther's stated. http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1140&relPageId=540 Just the gun part: Before you scoff at the "machine gun" consider this: the business end of the Delisle looks remarkably like the business end of a browning .30 cal machine gun. So here I go with another witness who claims to have seen a rifle (or gun) that has a large end and is wholly remarkable for some reason, albeit in a different location but I guess it's possible for different shooters to have the same weapons. I also urge readers to go read Mrs. Walthers account of the shots she heard (her entire statement is a measly 2 pages). That part of her statement automatically disqualifies her from any chance she'd be called to testify before the WC. Just my rumblings FWIW...

Couldn't find General Staten anywhere but found this guy of unknown rank: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Staton&GSfn=Thomas&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=27832626&df=all& Staten is not an Air Force General, the Air Force Bio page has data on all their flag officers. http://www.af.mil/information/bios/alpha.asp?alpha=S Also found this that may be of some interest: http://www.scribd.com/doc/64058630/A-Visit-of-President-John-F-Kennedy-to-White-Sands-Missile-Range

I agree with sentiment of both these posts above and also believe that any debate about how many shots one person or another "heard" doesn't prove a thing and just leads you down the primrose path that the conspirators would like you to travel. It impossible to imagine one untrained sniper with a bolt action rifle being responsible for all the shots and the damage caused. "Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together." Here's your probable Knoll weapon (IMHO): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lisle_carbine For the record, as stated in the article linked above, the noise the bolt made chambering a round was louder than noise made while firing. The weapon had been used by US, British and French special forces and specifically used by the OSS for assassinations.

I think it's probable, with the identification of Wallace's prints on the fith floor, that he had been directed by Clarke to set up the "patsy", Oswald. He may have simply pointed the weapon out the window and fired (wounding Teugue? or hitting the windshield?) thereby further setting the stage. Then it was a matter of hiding the rifle and acting inconspicous until he coulde leave the building. Real snipers do not allow their weapon to be seen protruding from a window. This scenario does not conflict with the theory that Harvey used his mafia connections to find the shooters or that other rogue assets were involved. I think the puzzle pieces are really beggining to fall into place. I do agree with Charleston in that the Government will do anything to keep this "under the rug". An example is Jimmy Carter's weighing into the fray concerning the "Men Who Killed Kennedy" LBJ episode purchase debacle. Was it he who stated that he was doing it for the "...sanctity of the Office"? This is the mindset. That we can't handle the truth. It may be time now, with Hunts recorded confession, McClellan's admitals and the ARRB documents among others to put real heat to the notion of a true Grand Jury Investigation.

I'm having the same problem with these dupes terry Anyway, there's some interesting stuff to be found here if you search on Pawley, Talisman and Clifton Co. (& Corp.): http://www.pbcountyclerk.com/oris/records_home.html I won't bore you with the tidbits but I found one agreement between Clifton Co. & Humbolt Oil if that means anything - Oil & Gas rights in Palm Beach County circa 1968?? weird. The land deals between Clifton/Pawley/Talisman are noteable for the amounts that they were dealing with: 3-9 million in 60's $$$ is quite a bit of cash.

Forget the M-16. Werbel's company, Sionics, made noise and flash suppressors for the M-14 in Vietnam. The correct nomenclature was "Sionics, Inc. M14SS-1 7.62 mm", I believe.See picture below: Where's Ryan when I need the help? The point in my thread about the Delisle is that it was in our CIA inventory in 1963 and it was a proven silenced weapon. The link to the earlier thread will take you to a PDF that explains this about the Delisle and Werbell: Interesting that SIONICS (which according to Werbell stood for "Studies In the Operational Negation of Insurgents and Counter-Subversion.") was merged into Military Armaments Corporation (MAC). While working for SIONICS, Gordon Ingram developed the MAC-10 (and later the MAC-11). MAC was in turn owned by the holding company, Quantum Corporation, whose chairman, Rosser Scott Reeves III, was rumored to have connections to the "John Birch Society". A look Quantum's board may turn up a colorful bunch. (edited to correct Ingram's first name - CN)

I had posted a theory concerning a possible silenced weapon a while back. FYI... previous thread Werbell had stated in the past that he had tried to develop a weapon based on this weapon. This weapon was operational and in inventory in 1963. FWIW my grandfather was a Major in the OSS/OWI. He served in the "Dixie Mission" in Yunan and was quite freindly with Chenault, et al. He passed away before I was born so I don't have any direct info on the old china hands. But I don't believe he would have been involved with opium, from what I know. His OWI "boss" in Yunan was John Stewart Service. I have heard a few "funny" Mao stories he told my father though. (fixed the link CN)

Just in case forum readers dont know the background of Surrey: from "History of The American Nazi Party" by Simonelli, Frederick J. link to original article Footnotes from above: I would assume that given the above information that anything that Surrey says should be taken with a few "grains of salt". That they claimed to own a building (house?) in Oak Cliff - another coincidence? last line edited - addition of word "building" - CN

Umm, this would seem to be a flawed statement in the review of "Flawed Patriot". It was Michael Straight who fingered Philby and the "Cambridge Five". Straight had been a communist mole and was scared that his appointment by the JFK administration to a political post would reveal his involvement. Straight was never prosecuted for his involvement despite his role. His story, in his words, is found his book "After Long Silence". In my opinion, he should have been jailed for life or worse. per an article in SteamShovel Press: SteamShovel Article It's interesting that Michael's cousin is Tracy Barnes and that one of Michael's main crimes was to provide press crudentials to his Soviet handler for Mark Gayne. It was Richard Nagell who suggested that Gayne or Barnes had given him and order to eliminate Oswald. What's startling about this is Hunt's recent revelation that he would look to the "corrupt Barnes" if he was to "suspect" CIA involvement in the assassination. So here's a possible CIA > Cambridge Five > Montreal (Gayn) > Richard Case Nagell > Tracey Barnes (Hunt, Straight))> Oswald "link". wow. Nagell's "stock" is rising in my opinion.

Just a shot in the dark, from familysearch.org: Charles HODGES Birth Date: 24 Jan 1945 Death Date: 15 Dec 1996 Social Security Number: 458-74-3996 State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: Texas Death Residence Localities ZIP Code: 23235 Localities: Bon Air, Chesterfield, Virginia Buford, Chesterfield, Virginia Pocoshock, Chesterfield, Virginia Richmond, Chesterfield, Virginia It's interesting that this Charles would have been 18 (a high School Senior) and there is no middle initial (or name) indicated, just like the Charles you are looking for.

Looks like this is the one with the exploding bears ...and that looks like a "Phillips" on the front cover.

Thanks Thomas, I now believe you and John are correct it is in the raised but closed position. It would be mere speculation - and I have zilch experience with a Carcano's "action" - but could it have been open and slid closed because the are handling it in the manner shown? i.e holding it by it's strap, pointed downward - no doubt so as to not disturb that palmprint.

To open the chamber and pull back the bolt in a "bolt action rifle" the operator of the weapon pushes the bolt lever up and then pulls it back. In this "raised" position it sticks out from the rifle at an angle of about 90 degrees. To close the bolt and chamber a round the operator pushes the lever forward and then down, in this position the bolt lever is close to the rifle body and generally pointing in a downward position. I've made two screen captures as the rifle is turned. I've colored the end of the bolt lever with a yellow dot and I have a yellow arrow pointed at the open chamber. The chamber is a black hole. There is no chambered round. Thanks, John, for your captures. I can plainly tell looking at them that the shadows weren't playing tricks with me on the issue of the scope. I'm not sure I follow your "dot" though I think the bolt lever is farther back. Maybe I misunderstand what your displaying.

An example of a weaver 330 : http://cgi.ebay.com/Weaver-330-Rifle-Scope...1QQcmdZViewItem (Link should be ok for a couple of days) BTW Weaver Scopes are from Texas - El Paso.

Good catch Jack Jack -thanks for the screen shot. I'll try and make one myself of the chamber showing no round inside. In your example you can clearly see that the bolt handle is in it's raised position and about 3 inches to the rear. One other thing about the "Weaver" Scope (if that's what it is) is that the 330 didn't have crosshairs - making any shot exponentially more difficult - maybe that's one of the reasons the original scope had to go!

Every time I watched the Tom Alyea clip I have I wonder if there isn't a lot more out there somewhere. For instance, the short MPEG I have is only about 56 seconds long and Alyea describes shooting a lot more film. Of course, later. he reversed himself on the chicken bones and stated they were there and McAdams spends a whole page on his site explaining why people's memories change. They must really need the rest of his statements to stand up. The problem is that he was filming - so we can see what he was describing - and I don't think I see what he describes in my little clip. At about the 00:00:42 second mark (per quicktime in my clip) the weapon is removed from it's hiding place. I could be mistaken but I believe the bolt is open or "mostly" open. I can see into the chamber and I don't see a round. How then was Fritz able to eject one? I also note that the scope resembles an old Weaver 330 or M73B1. The scope is very straight and does not taper at either end. It has a knob at the eyepiece end what seems to be a ring around it about 2-3" inches down from the eye piece. The scope in the National Archives (see the Life Photos) and the WC evidence tapers up at both ends(so the ends are larger). Maybe someone with better photoshop skills than I can capture and zoom some of Alyea's frames? Oh and while I'm calling out to shooters, Question: How many of you would head out on your mission with less than a full clip?

Thanks guys - I'm actually kinda stunned by the quick responses. I concur with Ryan - down range you will hear a thump as gas escapes the barrel. I'd like to add this one caveat though - unless a round is whizzing by you don't count on hearing anything beyond about 100 meters. The pdf file I linked to has some interesting results of a test conducted on the final 45 version of the Delisle. "Firing tests were conducted comparing a Sten MKII, a Sten MKIIS and a Delisle. The results showed the issue Sten was recorded by instruments at 125 dB, while the silencer equipped Sten was fired semi-auto at 89.5 dB. The Delisle Carbine tested at 85.5 dB with the larger 45 ACP round being fired." There's also an interesting entry concerning it's use by Jedburgh team to do "hits" on field grade Nazi Officers in 1944 (Jedburghs were OSS). This entry too, reported by journalist Allan Knorrs. "this was not one of those dramatic "get Hitler" plots, but at least two of the silenced Delisles were smuggled into Germany by deep cover courriers to be used by trainned assassins against top level German Officers and Officials in an effort to shorten the war by killing the heads of the government and military". And this from Werbell, "Merril's boys used them to terrorize and scare the xxxx out of the Japs at night and in ambush." Oh and thank you Lee - for the inspiration

I haven't written much about the assassination in the last twelve months but I've spent a lot of time thinking about the issues that have been gnawing at me. One of these issues was brought up a long time ago on jfkresearch.com. Someone had suggested that one of the three men on the steps may have had a submachine gun. I discounted the thought almost immediately and I still don't believe any of those three men were shooters. The submachine gun theory did touch another nerve with me. I really could not make it fit until just recently when a possible explanation hit my like a ton of bricks. I have long thought that there wasn't necessarily one shot from the knoll. There is ample evidence suggesting that several rounds were fired. I'm not going to re-hash all the instances of missed shots but I'd suggest looking at Mike Griffith's excellent article (http://ourworld.cs.com/mikegriffith1/id139.htm) and John S. Craig's "The Guns of Dealey Plaza" (http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html). Several witnesses have described what would seem to be an event other than a lone nut methodically working the action of a carbine and firing solo. "Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together."(1) Richard Randolph Carr testified at the Clay Shaw Trial. He was, in my opinion, one of the most qualified persons to ask about the gunshots in the plaza. He had been a Ranger in the Fifth Ranger Battalion at Anzio and one of thirteen men that survived, his entire battalion was, in his words, "annihilated". He stated the first shot he heard was "small arms", a pistol then three shots in succession. He also stated they were very close together, "they were fired from a semi-automatic or either...(cut off by an objection)". He also stated that they came from the knoll and at least one had "kicked up the grass". As an aside, I noted this little tidbit in Mr. Carr's testimony: "Q As a result of your conversations with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, What did you do? A I done as I was instructed, I shut my mouth."(2) Gordon Arnold stated the weapon he saw was like a shotgun. "And I was facing a large bore weapon, and the man was crying.” Conover asks, “What do you mean by a large bore weapon?” to which Arnold claims, “Like a shotgun…” “… but it looked… it was big enough for a truck to drive through.” (3) (I'm not going to debate Gordon Arnold's story - I have not formulated an opinion for lack of evidence -either way - but at this time, his is the only voice so far that has said anything about a strange weapon on the knoll.) Many witnesses noted smoke coming from the knoll, some also noted the "smell of gunpowder". This smell and/or smoke does not occur down range. It occurs at the source and may drift and travel a short distance on the wind. In the past I have closely studied all the reports on the acoustic evidence trying to determine what weapon type most closely matched the sounds and velocity calculations done and wether I agreed with the expert's conclusions. I still don't have an answer on this subject but I've been leaning towards a subsonic round. On a lark I decided that "badgeman" could have been firing a sabot through his shotgun. I've found sabot examples for a 12 gauge shotgun that could have been used in 1963. But this would be a slow round to load and could not account for the rapid fire noted by some witnesses I consider more reliable (i.e the combat vets). Gordon Arnold's statement also bothered me, if he's telling the truth, why would a young man from Texas and in the Army not know if a weapon was a shotgun or not? I also remember, although I don't know where from (someone please help me out with citations) that there had been some discussion that JFK's head wound resembled something caused more likely by a .45 than a jacketed .30x There's also been some speculation that a .45 round had been picked up in the grass in the area I noted earlier. So my problem was this I needed a weapon that is: 1) semi automatic or automatic 2) subsonic 3) "shotgun like" 4) possibly a .45 Well, that weapon is a Delisle .45 Carbine. The Delisle was highly regarded as the best silenced weapon of WW2. It has been documented as having been in the OSS inventory despite only about 130 being produced. It is rumored to still be utilized by some SAS. Here's a link to it's story: http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.pdf When I first saw this picture I immediately thought of Arnold's comment "big enough to drive a truck through".

Here's a lead to another researcher who had similiar interests (probably for a different reason): From Weekly Intelligence Notes #28-05 DO YOU KNOW WHEREABOUTS OF CIAer LLOYD GEORGE? - "Could anyone help me get in contact with Lloyd George, who in 1954 was the CIA Tokyo Chief of Station?" Replies to Washington Post researcher/journalist Serge Kovaleski at sergefk@verizon.net And one more that I'm not sure what to make of: Wikopedia reference for Thawee Junlasap (i'm sure this is not a reference to ex British PM David Lloyd George or it would be stated as such): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thawee_Junlasap

See this link: http://researched.blogspot.com/ former FBI agent Donald Wilson: If true, how does this change our view of Jack Ruby and what role he played in the coverup?

speaking of coincidences... Q. George Boja get to know Lee very well? A. I don't know. Q. Did he see him often? A. I don't know. Q. Did he ever see Lee? A. Yes. Q. Did you know that George Boja lived next door to Jack Ruby in Dallas? A. It was coincidence. From : http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...orter_0010a.htm

James, I couldn't find the book itself but this link may have the text: http://telemundo-foros.kcl.net/forum/showt...threadid=182755 Also, if the hardback is still important for photos or maps this link describes some veterans of his unit that have a radio show, Voz del Escambray. I'm sure they could help liberate a copy (excuse the pun). http://www.miaminewtimes.com/Issues/2005-1...ature_full.html -Chris

I signed this petition several years ago. My # is 126. I'm a little amused that Dan Marvin is #127 but I'm dissapointed to see that since then it's only increased to #171. That's maybe an average of 1 signature a month. At this rate, we'll probably have enough signatures when? 400 years from now? Richard - Do you still have title to the vehicle? Was it ever examined? My experience with most vehicles is that if let to sit for a long period they become inoperable. What was it's condition when you last saw it? - Chris (edited to add comment to Richard -CN)