David Andrews

Rogen had better bring a bitchin' Cronkite to get away with this, or he'll have to answer to Albert Brooks.

I could PM you, but that would spoil the ending of the film, Homicide. That film suggests why Blackbird might not be pro-CT, not why Blackbird wasn't made. Nobody knows why the red light went up for Blackbird after 2015, but the project was first announced in 2013, so there must have been some development troubles over the intervening time. Perhaps the production company crapped out. Mamet isn't listed as a writer or director on any film since 2014.

Joe - see Mamet's 1991 film Homicide, and you'll see why the Blackbird project might have been going in a different, more skeptical, direction. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102048/?ref_=nm_flmg_wr_35

Well, like many conspiracy books, this one does contain, somewhere near the beginning, the disclaimer that (paraphrase) "I never wanted to be an assassination conspiracy theorist" - so, go figure the results. The flaws in the book - part of the co-writing strategy was shaping the narrative around an "I couldn't get far enough, fast enough" trope - shouldn't obscure the discoveries made and the cracks widened in the official story. Getting a good publisher, plus some good press and public appearances, gets this information farther out than it's ever been, and could pave the way for a sequel. O'Neill may already be finding witnesses willing to open up after seeing the published work. Gofundme.com time! Jim, get O'Neill a Forum membership. A competent Manson debate (separate from this JFK debate) might be started. It's needed here, for several reasons.

Thomas Thompson was a frequent contributor to Life in the 1960s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Thompson_(American_author) So, anti-communist and Z-film frames disorganizer Henry Luce.

One of the valuable records in Chaos is the recounting of the threats, cover-ups and shutdowns, and flipped testimonies that O'Neill faced among Hollywood players and hangers-on, criminals, LAPD, LASO and area authorities. As in the JFKA, these experiences show how long and how far the involvements and fear last and reach. Some of the creepier parts read like Chinatown Pt. II (and not The Two Jakes), if the dialogue is accurate. Some flaws of the book occur because O'Neill is not conversant in the RFK assassination. His research into CIA relations with LAPD and mind control in California would have benefited from examining the Sandra Serrano interrogation, the mind control aspects of Sirhan's behavior (O'Neill seems to not know that Jolyon West examined Sirhan), LAPD evidence tampering, and all blocks to reopening the legal case against Sirhan. These are, at the very least, historical analogs to O'Neill's research interests. O'Neill should have been a member here long ago. Anybody reaching out and suggesting this guy dive into some of our back threads on RFK?

My caveat about a Michael Paine impersonation of Oswald: Paine looks considerably taller. Then again, people only seeing Oswald on TV may have negated that.

The Paine-Oswald resemblance has been discussed in the back threads, but I don't remember Paine being linked to any particular "second Oswald" appearance. Can't be overruled, though.

http://scriptshadow.net/screenplay-review-blackbird/ See link to review of script re: JFK. I'd love if someone could alert me if they find a copy of the David Mamet Blackbird script online. I'm not sure it's in line with our POV on film alteration, though I'm a Mamet fan. Perhaps his comments in the article below are the reason Blackbird wasn't made: https://www.thedailybeast.com/americas-cassandra-david-mamet-speaks-on-the-lies-of-obama-and-war

Point taken. I will try to defeat the prejudice that Manson, like all dirtbags accused of heinous crimes, would try to mitigate his heinousness. Was he not a master of the rhetorical trope of putting his motivations inside other people? (Them girls, they all wanted sex because they had daddy issues. / You fear Charlie because you actually want to kill Charlie, so here's the gun.)

Mr. WHALEY. He looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but he wasn't actually dirty. The T-shirt was a little soiled around the collar but the bottom part of it was white. Picayune details are sometimes telling. Oswald remonstrated for his right to take a shower in jail on 11/22 because he hadn't taken one at the Paine house that morning, or scored any clean clothes. In a hurry for the big day, after this unaccustomed weeknight sleepover? Or just totally unaware that he'd be facing destiny? People ask, why didn't he take his pistol to the TSBD? Why didn't he clean up for fight or flight, either?

Emmons was an ex-con who'd done time with Manson, which is how that book came together. "Well, he would say that, wouldn't he." -- Mandy Rice-Davies

No offense, but the "Free Bobby" copycat crime plot has been discussed and is pretty much part of the case history by now. But Manson chose the targets - he even chose Hinman for Bobby. Hinman turned into murder. Why blame Atkins for LaBianca after Charlie was aware of the horrors at Hinman and Tate?

I'm starting the O'Neill Chaos book. What do readers know about the house next door to the LaBianca house? Different accounts say Manson once went to a party there, or "partied" there (subtle difference). O'Neill says that Manson "once stayed" in the house. Then O'Neill says that the house was unoccupied on the night of the murders, "but it was no matter. The neighbors, Manson decided, would suffice as targets, because they, too, no matter who they were, symbolized the establishment he sought to overthrow with Helter Skelter." This is a big implication, that Manson was originally targeting the people next door. Who were they? It's extra puzzling when O'Neill repeats the story (true?) that the LaBiancas experienced burglaries where the furniture was rearranged in the Family's signature "creepy-crawly" style. Was Charlie working both houses? If the LaBiancas suffered creepy burglaries, and Leno owned an antique gun collection, why wasn't he sleeping on the couch with a piece nearby on the night after Tate?

I hear what you're all saying, and I'm re-reading the Mae Brussell transcript, which I'm familiar with. I agree that there are machinations, real or suggested, before and after the murders. But I can't write Manson a pass as a "patsy," any more than I'll write one for Watson or the girls. Call me a conservative. Are we agreed that Beausoleil killed Hinman in the company of some Family girls, over a drug deal to a motorcycle gang that Manson was ultimately financially liable for? Are we agreed that Tex Watson and Family girls killed the LaBiancas? That enough of the Kasabian testimony is valid and uncoerced? Are we agreed that Susan Atkins' jail cell confession is not a plant? Are we agreed that the statements of culpability and remorse made by Watson and the jailed Family girls in seeking parole are uncoerced and accurate? Or do we feel they take responsibility in order to protect some military intelligence assassins that they fear, or are concerned that a parole board will not believe in? Then no hall pass for Charlie. But how did Tex Watson know which one was the phone line? This set of murder cases, let me tell you - the more you study them, the more you feel like you're splashing through a room ankle deep in blood. And I'm reactionary enough to deny Manson "patsy" status just for the sake of my disgust, not to mention the suffering of the victims. I can, and do, look for more guilty parties, however.

I don't know California law, but now we're down to charges equivalent to Assault and Depraved Indifference to Human Life in Hinman, and those charges plus possible Kidnapping in LaBianca. The copycatting would be the product of an intelligence agency using Manson to program a cult of mind control slaves into committing sloppy murders decorated with political graffiti, by which a national investigative agency would prosecute them and discredit a youth movement? I don't disagree, but it seems like a lot of trouble and blood, since the CIA helped create and advance the Counterculture. Then needed the FBI to help tear it down. Discussion of Manson possibly visiting Cielo Drive after the murders by JFK researcher William Weston, following the lead of Ed Sanders: https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?16991-Zodiac-Killer-was-a-Member-of-the-International-White-Guard/page2 Even if it didn't happen, Manson's at two murder scenes that bracket Cielo Drive - so, hardly an overrated villain.

He drifted in and out at the Gary Hinman house killing, supposedly cutting Hinman's ear with a sword. Did he not enter the LaBianca house with Watson and tie the couple up before the girls went in? Watson said he did. Atkins and Kasabian said he told them that he did.

We should move on to Jackie. Presents the Kennedy White House with a certain stately ghostliness that's appealing in an inaccurate way, as if it were one of Jackie's lovely watches that now runs slow.

Well, it's a Fort Worth, TX, arrest photo, presumably after the assassination, or the day before, or that weekend, so that might tend to let Shelley off. Check the back threads, I think Fort Worth arrests have been discussed.

LBJ knew the Hoover call was being recorded. If he was scared on the plane, it was of the powers that had granted him his wish.

There was considerable action in the back threads on the Rather viewing, which ought to be reviewed to see where he viewed the Z-film.

I knew those three guys died suspiciously, but the woman sliced in the alley is a new one. Was this behind Ruby's apartment building? James Ellroy-style plotting.

This sounds like the reported klatsch of Ruby associates who met after Ruby's arrest in his apartment with his roommate George Senator, and talked to Jim Koethe and the other reporter. If so, I hadn't heard about the throat-cutting business.

Jim, I'd like to read this, but it seems to be the wrong link - unless there's a metaphor that I'm missing.

Is Alecia Long related to the political Longs of Louisiana (Huey, Russell, etc.)?