Dean Hagerman

was published in Chapter 24 in Best Evidence, published in January, 1981

In any event: please note that I was on record with the belief that the Zapruder film was altered, for these reasons, and published this in Best Evidence in 1981.

Holy cow!

I dont ever remember reading that footnote in "Best Evidence"

I read BE back in 1987 for the first time and have read it probably 20 times, I do not remember that footnote!

I grabbed my original hardcover copy of BE turned to chapter 24 and there it was!

Great job David, the first time I remember reading about alteration was in Crossfire while reading the section on Jack White back in 1989

So what am I supposed to do? Dean says I should choose Jack (and Lifton and Weldon) and abandon Judyth.

Yes this is what I said

And yes I believe you should abandon Judyth and her tall tales to maintain your old friendships with Jack, David and Doug

Jim I am looking out for your best interests

I do not care about Judyth

I do however care about you, I have stood behind you from the day I finished reading "Assassination Science"

Thats why it hurts me to see the friendships being ruined, the last thing I want you to think is that im against you Jim because im not!

Im against what Judyth is doing to you, I have asked over and over for you to step back and look at whats going on Jim, but I feel like you think im against you

Put yourself in my shoes for one second Jim

I grew up in the 1980s with David Lifton and later Jack White (After I saw Jack on TMWKK and reading about him in Crossfire and other books) as my heroes

Then after reading "Bloody Treason" I became a believer in alteration, then came your three books with awesome parts by Jack and David

I felt like I belonged to a group that believed in what I believed in

Jim I have spent 95% of my assassination research on the alteration films and photos since 1997

And YOU were my voice Jim

YOU were my leader in the alteration cause

YOUR books became the most important books when it came to my research

TGZFH became my bible Jim and I looked up to you as my leader

Now I am seeing Judyth ruin the friendships that were formed and came together on TGZFH

Just watch the video of you and Jack together at the end of his presentation at the Duluth Confrence

Its like the group I am proud to be a part of is being torn apart by Judyth

Not by you or Jack or David or Doug

Its Judyth who is doing this Jim

Please read this with an open mind Jim

Why post that garbage Jim?

Just trying to sling crap on Jack that has NOTHING to do with this thread

It is wrong of you to post that in this thread just to attack Jack

Very wrong

Jim

I never said I know more about Judyth then you do

In fact im positive you know way more about her then I do

And as for reading and listing to all the things you want me to I promise you Jim I will do that

I own with my wife a very busy buisness and as you can see I only have time to make a couple posts a day

I use the time right before I go to bed to read all the posts that I can then I hope to remember what to reply to the next day when I get a chance

In fact I have many PMs that I am behind on right now but those members know I have little time

So you have to give me time Jim, I will read the books (after I get them from Amazon) at night in bed and try to listen to and read your blogs this weekend

Im sure you can understand

Give me some time and then I can share my feelings about it with you, I will not reply to a book or blog that I have not read

Thanks Jim

I will keep you posted

Dean

PS I have been more and more interested in Barbs research and I am becoming friendly with Barb which has nothing to do with any "joining forces" with the enemy

Trust me Barb and I disagree on alot of things, but we both want the truth, I like Barb and I think her research is top notch

Im not joining her group or anything like that Jim, im just starting to look into Barbs research more deeply and im starting to agree with her

Thats it, no sinister plots behind it

I applaud you speaking out on your own behalf and standing your ground, Dean. And I thank you for your comments on the research I have done. I have enjoyed getting to know you, and I find your interest in truth, and wanting facts and time to look into and consider all rather than jumping on anyone's bandwagon refreshing ... and important in the research community overall. Sorry ... no sinister group to join anyway.<g>

I respect your time constraints ... though you owe no one any explanations. Keep up the good work on all of your endeavors!

Bests,

Barb :-)

Thank you very much Barb

Judyth is about as "real deal" as Anna Anderson

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Anderson

Judyth, I have observed to myself and perhaps occasionally on this thread, is smarter than anyone else here--including me!

I would take one Judyth over a dozen Weldons, Whites, and others unnamed.

Jim these two statements are the most outlandish thing I have ever read in my entire life

I cannot accept Judyth's account for a number of reasons. Jim, I have watched her on TMWKK. To be honest, when I copy the segments from 2003 and give them to people I often leave out her segment because I fear it detracts from the value of episode 7, on which both you and I appeared, and segment 9. The fact that Nigel Turner believes her really means nothing. I do not believe that there was an altruistic motive for Nigel in his productions but he was motivated by it being a commercial enterprise. I am not fooling myself. Nigel spent days at my house on several occasions. If my opinion was that Oswald did it alone I doubt that my charm would have captivated his time and attention. As Jim Garrison said about the Warren Commission and being told that they were important or distinquished people had no impact on his examination of the evidence.

There are many things which cause me concern about Judyth. I will only note a few. One of the arguments in favor of her credibility has been that a researcher went over the known timeline of Oswald's whereabouts and activities and she got everything right. A major reason I doubt her is that she got everything right. Can you tell me everything your wife did the first week of October 2009 yet 40 plus years ago? How about what you did?

Judyth remembers EVERYTHING Oswald told her. He must have been talking from morning to night and she would have to be a stenographer to keep trackof everything. How could she ever remember the japanese girl or David Phillips and other names and instances that would have no meaning to her. If somewhat shot names or stories at you forty years ago that had no meaning to you would you remember them? Why would you save your pay stubbs and records? Do you have yours from 45 years ago? Again, a personal reference. While I was teaching in the criminal justice department at Western Michigan Universityyears ago, I shared an office with a former police officer, who the following semester murdered his wife, who was a leading local newscaster. It was the first case ever on Court Television and the prosecuter was an individual I shared rides with my first year in law school. There have been three books written about the murder. How easy would it be for me to start talking about the great friendship we had, how we would go out to the bar together, and the things he would talk about. He had been having affairs with his students which added to the interest. It would be so easy to insert and mesh my life with his. The truth is I really did not know him at all.

Judyth's so-called Russian statements to Oswald when they allegedly first met are preposterous. Furthermore, Judyth's recall of statements between her and Oswald is not only amazing but also preposterous. It makes Romeo and Juliet look like a slap-stick comedy. Listen to Oswald's radio interviews and his statements in Dallas such as "a policeman hit me." Yes, Oswald was intelligent but he was not educated. Judyth's Oswald makes James Bond look like a character from Hee Haw. Listen to him. Can you picture this Oswald making the tearful heartrenching statements about Judyth having babies? Would the worst soap opera on television even think about putting such dialog in their show? When you were in the marines could you picture yourself saying such things to your wife or girlfriend? Did Oswald not have enough on his schedule with having a wife, a child, and a new born baby, and his travel and activities, that he could or would fit in this elaborate affair with Judyth? Did Oswald not have feelings towards his newly born child? If their love was so deep and the future so fragile why did Judyth not become pregnant? Who would know whose child it was?

How difficult is it to create accounts for times where Oswalds whereabouts or activities were unknown? It seems like that every time something cannot be accounted for then, lo and behold, Judyth happens to be there. Every single unknown woman Oswald happened to be seen with turns out to be, Surprise, Judyth.

Again, I am not questioning that Oswald was bright, but do you believe he was an intellectual? JFK was not an intellectual. Oswald had an IQ of 118, Kennedy 119. Obama has an IQ of 126. Ironically, the president with the highest IQ was Nixon with 164. Judyth said Oswald's favorite poet was Pushkin. I have learned a lot about Pushkin and I don't think so. He certainly did not check out any books by Pushkin at the Dallas library. Where are the books? It would be like me telling everyone that I read some Shakespearian plays everyday for light reading until I have the opportunity to read something more entertaining like "The epistomology of Statistical Analysis when comparing river sediment in Brazil."

I can go on and on. Judyth is obviously very bright which makes her ability to create an account more plausible. After reading everything she has done I am beginning to believe that this poor woman was cheated out of all the Nobel prizes. Whatever the truth is, Judyth is a damaged witness. She has read too much. When she tells of something she has done it is virtually followed by a Wilkepedia article oin the subject. She is tainted. She knows where the holes can be found in the Oswald story and thus knows where she can safely insert herself. She is too good. She can account for virtually every moment. When she can't it was because she got rammed head on by a rhinocerous and momentarily lost her memory which then comes back. If something turns out to be wrong it is because it is an unauthorized account which happened to have gotten stolen. Who writes unauthorized accounts? Humans are fallible. One of the things I argued about the validity of Nick Prencipe was his fallibility.He could have researched Greer and knew exactly where to put himself having a conversation with his friend William Greer. His uncertainty and mistakes are what gave him credibility. The human mind distorts details after 40 years but certain things are remembered. I can tell you what a great party I was at 2 years ago and some people fell into a pool but I can't tell you everyone who was there and if I did I might remember someone being there who was not there.

These are concerns. I am not passing a final judgment on Judyth. You, with your contacts with her, are indeed in a better position than I to evaluate her. You may ultimately be right. However, because of her research, she is virtually worthless as a witness. In big cases, we were always concerned about overpreparing a witness to where their account seems contrived. I once had a case with a young girl who was a CSC victim. I wanted her to be prepared for whatever questions that might come her way. I would talk with her. At first her head would be down and she could only whisper. I would give her a tootsie roll pop each time. One day she came in my office smiling and said "Mr. Weldon, he put his penis in my vagina. Could I have a sucker?" I was crushed. Judyth has overprepared herself to the extent that she has lost, if it was there, the ring of truth. She is the witness that an opposing attorney would drool to cross-examine.

Very well said Doug

Jim these are some of the same concerns that I have about Judyth's story

He claims are just outlandish

Jim

I never said I know more about Judyth then you do

In fact im positive you know way more about her then I do

And as for reading and listing to all the things you want me to I promise you Jim I will do that

I own with my wife a very busy buisness and as you can see I only have time to make a couple posts a day

I use the time right before I go to bed to read all the posts that I can then I hope to remember what to reply to the next day when I get a chance

In fact I have many PMs that I am behind on right now but those members know I have little time

So you have to give me time Jim, I will read the books (after I get them from Amazon) at night in bed and try to listen to and read your blogs this weekend

Im sure you can understand

Give me some time and then I can share my feelings about it with you, I will not reply to a book or blog that I have not read

Thanks Jim

I will keep you posted

Dean

PS I have been more and more interested in Barbs research and I am becoming friendly with Barb which has nothing to do with any "joining forces" with the enemy

Trust me Barb and I disagree on alot of things, but we both want the truth, I like Barb and I think her research is top notch

Im not joining her group or anything like that Jim, im just starting to look into Barbs research more deeply and im starting to agree with her

Thats it, no sinister plots behind it

Dean,

You say to me, "I am very open and will read or listen to anything you have to say Jim", yet from the answers to my questions, it does not appear to me that you are open or willing to read or listen to my suggestions. At least five of your answers below were "No", where several others also seem to fit. You appear to be taking your cues from Junkkarinen and Viklund, whom I regard as completely unreliable. Jack and Barb may be new BFFs, but it baffles me as to why you say you are listening to me or will read what I suggest when you are not. How many times do I have to recommend reading Ed Haslam, DR. MARY'S MONKEY? I have had extensive dealings with Judyth and I assure you she is not a fake. She was in New Orleans, she knew Lee Oswald, and she worked with David Ferrie and Mary Sherman. I cannot understand why you think you can tell who is or is not a phony without doing any research. I can tell you why I am skeptical of James Files, but I doubt that you have any good reasons to be skeptical of Judyth. The persons you are listening to and following are Junkkarinen and Viklund. And why in the world would you think that you know more about Judyth than I when I have had extensive contact with her and you have not? You don't seem to be thinking for yourself.

Jim

QUOTE (Dean Hagerman @ Apr 19 2010, 01:40 AM)

My answers in Bold

QUOTE (James H. Fetzer @ Apr 19 2010, 12:54 AM)

Dean,

If I were not convinced she is genuine, I would not be here defending her.

More than one of your posts has bothered me. I ask the following questions:

(1) Have you ever actually met or spoken with Judyth Vary Baker?

No, I have through Email from you asked her a question and got a reply, I would talk to Judyth, but as I told you Jim I do not want to talk to a woman I do not know about personal issues that are sensitive, I will leave it at that you know what im talking about. If Judyth is willing to talk to me I am willing to read and reply to her

(2) Have you ever watched Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair"?

I have watched it 10+ times, I love TMWKK and "The Love Affair" is my least favorite segment, followed very closly by French assassins

(3) Have you read MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONEY VIRUS?

No

(4) Have you read Ed Haslam's DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

No

(5) Have you read my blog about Judyth Vary Baker?

Yes

(6) Have you listened to my 1-hour Haslem interview?

No

(7) Have you read my blog about DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

No

(8) Have you listened to Ed's 4-hour C2C interview?

No

(9) Are your opinions actually based upon research?

I have not researched any of Judyth's claims myself, however I have looked at alot of Barbs research on Judyth and what Barb has shown me is enough, I believe her research alone shuts down Judyth IMO

(10) What is the value of opinions not based on research?

I would say pretty high because most of us researchers have been around long enough to spot fakes, I dont need hard research to say that the stories Judyth Baker and James Files tell are false.

Jim my mind has been changed 100s of times on assassination issues and theories

Please tell me what this new relevant evidence is, because all I have seen in this thread from Judyth is old news that has been debunked or is just not to be believed

I am very open and will read or listen to anything you have to say Jim

Well, Dean, God knows I wouldn't want your mind to be changed by anything like new relevant evidence! What is this forum coming to?

Click to flip through ME &LEE: http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...12-flip-320.gif

For more on ME & LEE, see http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...+Lee/index.html

Well Michael thanks for the offer but you know as well as I do that you will be keeping your extra copy of H&L

Unless Dr Mary's Monkey contains pictures of Judyth and LHO embracing each other Im positive it will not change my mind

I want to read it to try and see were Jim is coming from

.....The reason I have not replied about any of the posts about Armstrong is because I have not read his book. I am very upset with myself for not buying it when it came out, and my wife will not let me spend the $75.00-100.00 to buy the book. So I can not reply to anything that has to do with "Harvey and Lee" That would be very stupid on my part with out having read the book first

I will purchase Dr Mary's Monkey per your suggestion and read it (as it is much less then H&L)

I will report back with my thoughts on it

The bottom line is that I hate seeing you lose two friends over Judyth, aside from all the other stuff, that is what im really trying to say Jim

Dean, if you change your mind about Judyth Baker and come to believe that she and Lee Oswald were

lovers, after reading Dr. Mary's Monkey, I'll be glad to give you my extra copy of Harvey & Lee.

Ed Haslam leaves no doubt that he believes in Judyth Baker as a person, as he puts it. But the actual

evidence he gives in his book for her love relationship with LHO is minimal, certainly nothing that

hasn't already appeared in this thread.

In Dr Mary's Monkey, Haslam urges the readers to make up their own minds. He refers them

to Baker's two volume book, Lee Harvey Oswald. He now admits this account is flawed.

Keep in mind that, according to Judyth Baker, she made the decision not to tell Haslam

that her book was unauthorized by her and contained errors. She would have told him if

she'd had any idea he was writing a book. Yet, according to Haslam, she "corrected and corroborated"

her story that ultimately appeared in his book.

It's these types of accounts that give me a vague unease about the whole thing.

At any rate, Ed Haslam has posted twice on this thread. The way I read it, he is asking members to wait

until Judyth Baker's new book comes out to make up their minds. He concedes there are shortcomings in

her previous accounts. Again, I have no doubt that Haslam believes she had a love affair with Oswald.

He told Jim Marrs in 2003 that this belief stems more from his belief in her as a person than it does

from actual evidence. If you get the chance, listen to that interview on YouTube, beginning at about the

forty-three minute mark.

In my opinion, Haslam has always been more interested in Judyth Baker's role in cancer research than

he has been with her alleged love relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Dear Forum Members,

Next, I can't help but think that this discussion of Judyth Vary Baker will be more productive once the members have read her soon-to-be-released book ME AND LEE, which will be her official autobiographical portrait of how her quest to find a cure for cancer lead her to work as a secretary at the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 under the direction of an ex-FBI agent and at the exact same time that Lee Oswald worked there. Trine Day Press has put a great deal of effort into making sure that the documents are well presented and that her story is properly edited for a thoughtful read by those who really want to hear her tale.

Like many, I wish such a book had been available many years earlier. Unfortunately, it was not.

I do hope that this forum's members, which are among the best informed JFK assassination researchers engaged in public debate, will read this important book with an open mind. And I look forward to their discussion about it, once they do.

Until then, all involved should realize that what is being discussed here is based primarily upon an incomplete recounting of her story and illuminated by a constellation of malignant perceptions which emerged over years of inadequate, and occasionally inappropriate, representations. What you will read is the personal story of a witness to an important, albeit infamous, chapter of our history - one which deserves a fair hearing, a full review of the evidence, and the benefit of solid analysis. Once that happens, I look forward to reading your thoughts about it.

My Best to all,

Ed Haslam

author of DR. MARY'S MONKEY

Jack,

Thanks for your questions. I have great admiration for the work that you have done over the years. I will say that I am confident that if you read ME AND LEE with the same "close scrutiny" that you have used to study all those photos, then you will come to reasonable answers... whatever they may be. And I will be interested to hear your thought about them when you do.

From my own experience, I will say that, despite the considerable contact that I had with Judyth since Nov. 2000 and all of the other previous attempts by others to recount her tale, I did not understand "the flow" of her story. While I did think that certain "landmarks" grounded her story (such as the W2 form from Reily Coffee and her time at Roswell Park Cancer Institute), there was still a forest of unanswered questions for me. I found much of her tale "disconnected" and her retelling of it "confusing," particularly on important issues like how she became involved with people like Dr. Alton Ochsner and the erratic path of her college career. I queried Judyth relentlessly about these issues, the gaps in the story, and many other issues. There were many tense moments during this process, and she became frustrated with me at times. But I finally realized this was because there were things that she was reluctant to discuss, some for personal reasons. This process took more time than I anticipated, but eventually what I found was that the key to understanding her New Orleans activities lies in the years before she ever arrived in New Orleans and before she ever met Lee Oswald. I finally realized that understanding what made young "Judy Vary" tick was as important as anything we have heard to date about her romance with Lee Oswald. She was the resource that they needed to create the bio-weapon secretly, and there is nothing glorious or glamorous about killing baby mice, amputating their tumors and grinding them up in a blender. In fact, she became disgusted with what she was doing and realized that she had been lead down the path of evil by those she trusted. In the final analysis, I consider Judyth "a witness," not "a researcher," and I think that her story must be understood in that light. But the questions remain: What insights can we gain from the recollections of this witness? And do they help us understand what happened in Dallas?

Overall, I will say that my view of her Judyth shifted as I read ME AND LEE. The portrait is paints of her is not particularly flattering, but it rings true. And it is a better grounded story than I expected to find. One that makes far more sense than anything I had heard from earlier versions. One whose pieces fit together better than I had expected. One that I hope that you (and the others seriously concerned about this subject) will read with an open mind.

My Best,

Ed Haslam

Jim my mind has been changed 100s of times on assassination issues and theories

Please tell me what this new relevant evidence is, because all I have seen in this thread from Judyth is old news that has been debunked or is just not to be believed

I am very open and will read or listen to anything you have to say Jim

Well, Dean, God knows I wouldn't want your mind to be changed by anything like new relevant evidence! What is this forum coming to?

Click to flip through ME &LEE: http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...12-flip-320.gif

For more on ME & LEE, see http://www.trineday.com/paypal_store/produ...+Lee/index.html

Well Michael thanks for the offer but you know as well as I do that you will be keeping your extra copy of H&L

Unless Dr Mary's Monkey contains pictures of Judyth and LHO embracing each other Im positive it will not change my mind

I want to read it to try and see were Jim is coming from

.....The reason I have not replied about any of the posts about Armstrong is because I have not read his book. I am very upset with myself for not buying it when it came out, and my wife will not let me spend the $75.00-100.00 to buy the book. So I can not reply to anything that has to do with "Harvey and Lee" That would be very stupid on my part with out having read the book first

I will purchase Dr Mary's Monkey per your suggestion and read it (as it is much less then H&L)

I will report back with my thoughts on it

The bottom line is that I hate seeing you lose two friends over Judyth, aside from all the other stuff, that is what im really trying to say Jim

Dean, if you change your mind about Judyth Baker and come to believe that she and Lee Oswald were

lovers, after reading Dr. Mary's Monkey, I'll be glad to give you my extra copy of Harvey & Lee.

Ed Haslam leaves no doubt that he believes in Judyth Baker as a person, as he puts it. But the actual

evidence he gives in his book for her love relationship with LHO is minimal, certainly nothing that

hasn't already appeared in this thread.

In Dr Mary's Monkey, Haslam urges the readers to make up their own minds. He refers them

to Baker's two volume book, Lee Harvey Oswald. He now admits this account is flawed.

Keep in mind that, according to Judyth Baker, she made the decision not to tell Haslam

that her book was unauthorized by her and contained errors. She would have told him if

she'd had any idea he was writing a book. Yet, according to Haslam, she "corrected and corroborated"

her story that ultimately appeared in his book.

It's these types of accounts that give me a vague unease about the whole thing.

At any rate, Ed Haslam has posted twice on this thread. The way I read it, he is asking members to wait

until Judyth Baker's new book comes out to make up their minds. He concedes there are shortcomings in

her previous accounts. Again, I have no doubt that Haslam believes she had a love affair with Oswald.

He told Jim Marrs in 2003 that this belief stems more from his belief in her as a person than it does

from actual evidence. If you get the chance, listen to that interview on YouTube, beginning at about the

forty-three minute mark.

In my opinion, Haslam has always been more interested in Judyth Baker's role in cancer research than

he has been with her alleged love relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Dear Forum Members,

Next, I can't help but think that this discussion of Judyth Vary Baker will be more productive once the members have read her soon-to-be-released book ME AND LEE, which will be her official autobiographical portrait of how her quest to find a cure for cancer lead her to work as a secretary at the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 under the direction of an ex-FBI agent and at the exact same time that Lee Oswald worked there. Trine Day Press has put a great deal of effort into making sure that the documents are well presented and that her story is properly edited for a thoughtful read by those who really want to hear her tale.

Like many, I wish such a book had been available many years earlier. Unfortunately, it was not.

I do hope that this forum's members, which are among the best informed JFK assassination researchers engaged in public debate, will read this important book with an open mind. And I look forward to their discussion about it, once they do.

Until then, all involved should realize that what is being discussed here is based primarily upon an incomplete recounting of her story and illuminated by a constellation of malignant perceptions which emerged over years of inadequate, and occasionally inappropriate, representations. What you will read is the personal story of a witness to an important, albeit infamous, chapter of our history - one which deserves a fair hearing, a full review of the evidence, and the benefit of solid analysis. Once that happens, I look forward to reading your thoughts about it.

My Best to all,

Ed Haslam

author of DR. MARY'S MONKEY

Jack,

Thanks for your questions. I have great admiration for the work that you have done over the years. I will say that I am confident that if you read ME AND LEE with the same "close scrutiny" that you have used to study all those photos, then you will come to reasonable answers... whatever they may be. And I will be interested to hear your thought about them when you do.

From my own experience, I will say that, despite the considerable contact that I had with Judyth since Nov. 2000 and all of the other previous attempts by others to recount her tale, I did not understand "the flow" of her story. While I did think that certain "landmarks" grounded her story (such as the W2 form from Reily Coffee and her time at Roswell Park Cancer Institute), there was still a forest of unanswered questions for me. I found much of her tale "disconnected" and her retelling of it "confusing," particularly on important issues like how she became involved with people like Dr. Alton Ochsner and the erratic path of her college career. I queried Judyth relentlessly about these issues, the gaps in the story, and many other issues. There were many tense moments during this process, and she became frustrated with me at times. But I finally realized this was because there were things that she was reluctant to discuss, some for personal reasons. This process took more time than I anticipated, but eventually what I found was that the key to understanding her New Orleans activities lies in the years before she ever arrived in New Orleans and before she ever met Lee Oswald. I finally realized that understanding what made young "Judy Vary" tick was as important as anything we have heard to date about her romance with Lee Oswald. She was the resource that they needed to create the bio-weapon secretly, and there is nothing glorious or glamorous about killing baby mice, amputating their tumors and grinding them up in a blender. In fact, she became disgusted with what she was doing and realized that she had been lead down the path of evil by those she trusted. In the final analysis, I consider Judyth "a witness," not "a researcher," and I think that her story must be understood in that light. But the questions remain: What insights can we gain from the recollections of this witness? And do they help us understand what happened in Dallas?

Overall, I will say that my view of her Judyth shifted as I read ME AND LEE. The portrait is paints of her is not particularly flattering, but it rings true. And it is a better grounded story than I expected to find. One that makes far more sense than anything I had heard from earlier versions. One whose pieces fit together better than I had expected. One that I hope that you (and the others seriously concerned about this subject) will read with an open mind.

My Best,

Ed Haslam

Mrs Willis and Mystery Woman.

No Phil Willis or Croft ?

Robin

Im going to read the section on Croft in "Pictures of the Pain" as I forgot his movements through Dealey Plaza

I will report back

Well Michael thanks for the offer but you know as well as I do that you will be keeping your extra copy of H&L

Unless Dr Mary's Monkey contains pictures of Judyth and LHO embracing each other Im positive it will not change my mind

I want to read it to try and see were Jim is coming from

.....The reason I have not replied about any of the posts about Armstrong is because I have not read his book. I am very upset with myself for not buying it when it came out, and my wife will not let me spend the $75.00-100.00 to buy the book. So I can not reply to anything that has to do with "Harvey and Lee" That would be very stupid on my part with out having read the book first

I will purchase Dr Mary's Monkey per your suggestion and read it (as it is much less then H&L)

I will report back with my thoughts on it

The bottom line is that I hate seeing you lose two friends over Judyth, aside from all the other stuff, that is what im really trying to say Jim

Dean, if you change your mind about Judyth Baker and come to believe that she and Lee Oswald were

lovers, after reading Dr. Mary's Monkey, I'll be glad to give you my extra copy of Harvey & Lee.

Ed Haslam leaves no doubt that he believes in Judyth Baker as a person, as he puts it. But the actual

evidence he gives in his book for her love relationship with LHO is minimal, certainly nothing that

hasn't already appeared in this thread.

In Dr Mary's Monkey, Haslam urges the readers to make up their own minds. He refers them

to Baker's two volume book, Lee Harvey Oswald. He now admits this account is flawed.

Keep in mind that, according to Judyth Baker, she made the decision not to tell Haslam

that her book was unauthorized by her and contained errors. She would have told him if

she'd had any idea he was writing a book. Yet, according to Haslam, she "corrected and corroborated"

her story that ultimately appeared in his book.

It's these types of accounts that give me a vague unease about the whole thing.

At any rate, Ed Haslam has posted twice on this thread. The way I read it, he is asking members to wait

until Judyth Baker's new book comes out to make up their minds. He concedes there are shortcomings in

her previous accounts. Again, I have no doubt that Haslam believes she had a love affair with Oswald.

He told Jim Marrs in 2003 that this belief stems more from his belief in her as a person than it does

from actual evidence. If you get the chance, listen to that interview on YouTube, beginning at about the

forty-three minute mark.

In my opinion, Haslam has always been more interested in Judyth Baker's role in cancer research than

he has been with her alleged love relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Dear Forum Members,

Next, I can't help but think that this discussion of Judyth Vary Baker will be more productive once the members have read her soon-to-be-released book ME AND LEE, which will be her official autobiographical portrait of how her quest to find a cure for cancer lead her to work as a secretary at the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans in the summer of 1963 under the direction of an ex-FBI agent and at the exact same time that Lee Oswald worked there. Trine Day Press has put a great deal of effort into making sure that the documents are well presented and that her story is properly edited for a thoughtful read by those who really want to hear her tale.

Like many, I wish such a book had been available many years earlier. Unfortunately, it was not.

I do hope that this forum's members, which are among the best informed JFK assassination researchers engaged in public debate, will read this important book with an open mind. And I look forward to their discussion about it, once they do.

Until then, all involved should realize that what is being discussed here is based primarily upon an incomplete recounting of her story and illuminated by a constellation of malignant perceptions which emerged over years of inadequate, and occasionally inappropriate, representations. What you will read is the personal story of a witness to an important, albeit infamous, chapter of our history - one which deserves a fair hearing, a full review of the evidence, and the benefit of solid analysis. Once that happens, I look forward to reading your thoughts about it.

My Best to all,

Ed Haslam

author of DR. MARY'S MONKEY

Jack,

Thanks for your questions. I have great admiration for the work that you have done over the years. I will say that I am confident that if you read ME AND LEE with the same "close scrutiny" that you have used to study all those photos, then you will come to reasonable answers... whatever they may be. And I will be interested to hear your thought about them when you do.

From my own experience, I will say that, despite the considerable contact that I had with Judyth since Nov. 2000 and all of the other previous attempts by others to recount her tale, I did not understand "the flow" of her story. While I did think that certain "landmarks" grounded her story (such as the W2 form from Reily Coffee and her time at Roswell Park Cancer Institute), there was still a forest of unanswered questions for me. I found much of her tale "disconnected" and her retelling of it "confusing," particularly on important issues like how she became involved with people like Dr. Alton Ochsner and the erratic path of her college career. I queried Judyth relentlessly about these issues, the gaps in the story, and many other issues. There were many tense moments during this process, and she became frustrated with me at times. But I finally realized this was because there were things that she was reluctant to discuss, some for personal reasons. This process took more time than I anticipated, but eventually what I found was that the key to understanding her New Orleans activities lies in the years before she ever arrived in New Orleans and before she ever met Lee Oswald. I finally realized that understanding what made young "Judy Vary" tick was as important as anything we have heard to date about her romance with Lee Oswald. She was the resource that they needed to create the bio-weapon secretly, and there is nothing glorious or glamorous about killing baby mice, amputating their tumors and grinding them up in a blender. In fact, she became disgusted with what she was doing and realized that she had been lead down the path of evil by those she trusted. In the final analysis, I consider Judyth "a witness," not "a researcher," and I think that her story must be understood in that light. But the questions remain: What insights can we gain from the recollections of this witness? And do they help us understand what happened in Dallas?

Overall, I will say that my view of her Judyth shifted as I read ME AND LEE. The portrait is paints of her is not particularly flattering, but it rings true. And it is a better grounded story than I expected to find. One that makes far more sense than anything I had heard from earlier versions. One whose pieces fit together better than I had expected. One that I hope that you (and the others seriously concerned about this subject) will read with an open mind.

My Best,

Ed Haslam

Jim

Thank you for your replies

The reason I have not replied about any of the posts about Armstrong is because I have not read his book. I am very upset with myself for not buying it when it came out, and my wife will not let me spend the $75.00-100.00 to buy the book. So I can not reply to anything that has to do with "Harvey and Lee" That would be very stupid on my part with out having read the book first

I will purchase Dr Mary's Monkey per your suggestion and read it (as it is much less then H&L

I will report back with my thoughts on it

The bottom line is that I hate seeing you loose two friends over Judyth, aside from all the other stuff, that is what im really trying to say Jim

Dean

My answers in Bold

Dean,

If I were not convinced she is genuine, I would not be here defending her.

More than one of your posts has bothered me. I ask the following questions:

(1) Have you ever actually met or spoken with Judyth Vary Baker?

No, I have through Email from you asked her a question and got a reply, I would talk to Judyth, but as I told you Jim I do not want to talk to a woman I do not know about personal issues that are sensitive, I will leave it at that you know what im talking about. If Judyth is willing to talk to me I am willing to read and reply to her

(2) Have you ever watched Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair"?

I have watched it 10+ times, I love TMWKK and "The Love Affair" is my least favorite segment, followed very closly by French assassins

(3) Have you read MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONEY VIRUS?

No

(4) Have you read Ed Haslam's DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

No

(5) Have you read my blog about Judyth Vary Baker?

Yes

(6) Have you listened to my 1-hour Haslem interview?

No

(7) Have you read my blog about DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

No

(8) Have you listened to Ed's 4-hour C2C interview?

No

(9) Are your opinions actually based upon research?

I have not researched any of Judyth's claims myself, however I have looked at alot of Barbs research on Judyth and what Barb has shown me is enough, I believe her research alone shuts down Judyth IMO

(10) What is the value of opinions not based on research?

I would say pretty high because most of us researchers have been around long enough to spot fakes, I dont need hard research to say that the stories Judyth Baker and James Files tell are false.

In every post before the last one I have expressed my feelings towards Judyth, but I have also said how I stand behind you Jim, what bothers you?

I hope its not my feelings for Judyth because they have nothing to do with my feelings about you Jim

I almost fell out of my chair when I read you were no longer friends with Jack

Look what she has done to you Jim

Do not let her do this, I look up to you Jim, I think of you as my voice for my alteration theories, I believe 100% in alteration Jim and stand behind you

But I can no longer do that because Judyth is wrong and she is loving the fact that she is breaking up your friendships

I have some questions for you now Jim, please answer them as I answered yours

1. Is believing in and backing up Judyth's story worth destroying two friendships?

IF FRIENDSHIP OUT WEIGHTS THE SEARCH FOR TRUTH, THERE IS NO SEARCH FOR TRUTH, ONLY FRIENDSHIPS.

2. Are you willing to have all of your credibility destroyed like all the other researchers who stood by Judyth before?

I SEE IT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. THE ARGUMENTS FOR JUDYTH ARE STRONGER THAN THOSE AGAINST HER.

3. What are you going to do and say when you find out that Judyth has been telling you a fake story?

THIS IS CALLED "BEGGING THE QUESTION". WHAT WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU BELATEDLY REALIZE I AM RIGHT?

4. How many times will it take to prove to you that Judyth is not telling the truth?

EGAD! I HAVE YET TO FIND ONE SERIOUS, PERSUASIVE ARGUMENT AGAINST HER PRESENTED ON THIS FORUM.

5. Why are you backing her up?

BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN HER, JUST AS I HAVE BACKED UP LIFTON AND JACK WHEN I THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE RIGHT.

6. When did you start believing Judyth

I ONLY BEGAN STUDYING HER SERIOUSLY SINCE 2007. THE MORE I HAVE LEARNED, THE MORE I HAVE BELIEVED IN HER.

7. Did she contact you or did you contact her?

I THINK SHE SENT OUT AN EMAIL TO A HALF-DOZEN JFK STUDENTS, BUT I WAS THE ONLY ONE WILLING TO HEAR HER OUT.

8. Are you going to help her with her book?

NO, HER BOOK IS BASICALLY DONE (ALL WITHOUT ME). IT SHOULD APPEAR IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS, I WOULD PRESUME.

9. Has Judyth's "research" been more important to you then Jack White's research?

MORE IMPORTANT ABOUT LEE HARVEY OSWALD BY A CONSIDERABLE MARGIN, BUT NOT, SAY, ABOUT THE ZAPRUDER FILM.

10. Has Judyth's "research" been more important to you then David Lifton's research?

NOT IN RELATION TO THE MEDICAL EVIDENCE OR THE Z-FILM, BUT I HAVE LEARNED NOTHING ABOUT OSWALD FROM LIFTON.

10. Do you believe Judyth over David Lifton?

ABOUT OSWALD AND NEW ORLEANS, I HAVE LEARNED A GREAT DEAL FROM ED AND FROM JUDYTH BUT NOTHING FROM LIFTON.

Jack,

In all due respect, my friend, IMO this is chicken xxxx. It was a cowardly act by the author of the message who was too uncertain of him or her self to claim responsibility for their position (if it can even be called that). It is a very low blow, not to Judyth mind you, but to yourself! Whoever the author is, you might consider the very real possibility that Judyth was not the target of the attack--you were. And, judging from Jim's reaction, it appears that they may have hit the bull's eye.

There is a "signature" to these things, my friend. You know me--and you know my meaning.

GO_SECURE

monk

It seems that most researchers (wisely) do not want to become involved in the thread re JVB. For some reason many of them seem to focus on emailing me to vent their feelings at a safe venue. So far about a dozen have emailed me varying messages about JVB. Here is a typical EXCERPT from one received just today (anonymous for obvious reasons):

"I have believed for years that sexual frustration lies at the root of JVB’s motives – that she is more to be pitied than deplored. The sad but indisputable fact is that she is now overweight and unattractive and was once rather attractive (amply endowed, as she has pointed out on occasion), showing much promise in her academic abilities which never came to fruition. She has lived a life peppered with disappointment, unable to get along with people for more than a few weeks. Every relationship – mostly with men -- eventually goes down the toilet."

There are many other unsolicited emails. They are wise to not enter the public area of controversy. This

has been going on for ten years now, with new supporters taking up the torch when others become

disenchanted. How much longer will it go on?

Greg

So its ok for Jim to post some silly Psy-Op garbage attacking Jack from an unkown person

Why is it ok for Jim to do that but not ok for Jack?

I dont understand

My answers in Bold

Dean,

If I were not convinced she is genuine, I would not be here defending her.

More than one of your posts has bothered me. I ask the following questions:

(1) Have you ever actually met or spoken with Judyth Vary Baker?

No, I have through Email from you asked her a question and got a reply, I would talk to Judyth, but as I told you Jim I do not want to talk to a woman I do not know about personal issues that are sensitive, I will leave it at that you know what im talking about. If Judyth is willing to talk to me I am willing to read and reply to her

(2) Have you ever watched Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair"?

I have watched it 10+ times, I love TMWKK and "The Love Affair" is my least favorite segment, followed very closly by French assassins

(3) Have you read MARY, FERRIE, AND THE MONEY VIRUS?

No

(4) Have you read Ed Haslam's DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

No

(5) Have you read my blog about Judyth Vary Baker?

Yes

(6) Have you listened to my 1-hour Haslem interview?

No

(7) Have you read my blog about DR. MARY'S MONKEY?

No

(8) Have you listened to Ed's 4-hour C2C interview?

No

(9) Are your opinions actually based upon research?

I have not researched any of Judyth's claims myself, however I have looked at alot of Barbs research on Judyth and what Barb has shown me is enough, I believe her research alone shuts down Judyth IMO

(10) What is the value of opinions not based on research?

I would say pretty high because most of us researchers have been around long enough to spot fakes, I dont need hard research to say that the stories Judyth Baker and James Files tell are false.

In every post before the last one I have expressed my feelings towards Judyth, but I have also said how I stand behind you Jim, what bothers you?

I hope its not my feelings for Judyth because they have nothing to do with my feelings about you Jim

I almost fell out of my chair when I read you were no longer friends with Jack

Look what she has done to you Jim

Do not let her do this, I look up to you Jim, I think of you as my voice for my alteration theories, I believe 100% in alteration Jim and stand behind you

But I can no longer do that because Judyth is wrong and she is loving the fact that she is breaking up your friendships

I have some questions for you now Jim, please answer them as I answered yours

1. Is believing in and backing up Judyth's story worth destroying two friendships?

2. Are you willing to have all of your credibility destroyed like all the other researchers who stood by Judyth before?

3. What are you going to do and say when you find out that Judyth has been telling you a fake story?

4. How many times will it take to prove to you that Judyth is not telling the truth?

5. Why are you backing her up?

6. When did you start believing Judyth

7. Did she contact you or did you contact her?

8. Are you going to help her with her book?

9. Has Judyth's "research" been more important to you then Jack White's research?

10. Has Judyth's "research" been more important to you then David Lifton's research?

10. Do you believe Judyth over David Lifton?

NOTICE OF TERMINATION OF FRIENDSHIP WITH JACK WHITE, WHO HAS FINALLY DISGUSTED ME

We are no longer friends

I hope your happy Judyth, look what your fake tales have done

You are making a huge mistake Jim, I cant believe you are saying this to Jack over a woman who has you under her spell

Everything she has told you is a lie Jim

Jack I am behind you, Jim is wrong for doing this and Judyth has now become my most hated person involved (I dont even want to call her involved) in the JFK assassination

Dean

(3) Have you ever watched Nigel Turner's "The Love Affair"?

OF COURSE. IT WAS ALMOST AS BAD AS HIS "CORSICAN MAFIA CONNECTION" SEGMENT.

Perfect Jack, I agree

A smaller "flash video" version.

http://98.155.2.255:8400/58A26/Dorman_Stabilized.flv

chris

Thanks, Chris. I was able to SAVE the Flash Version but not the QT versions. This is peculiar.

I have always been able to save QT movies and look at them a frame at the time. I am

not able to do this with the ones you attached.

Jack

I could not save the QT version either, its weird like 50% of the time I cant dowload Chris's videos, but the other 50% of the time I can dowload them no problem

I agree with Martin and Robin, its impossible to tell for sure but its probably Croft from the position, and Croft like Nix was very tall

My main focus in the Dorman film has always been on Hugh Betzner

I CANNOT THINK OF ANYTHING THAT HAS SO HOBBLED THE TRUTH AS HIS THEORY THAT HAS HAS DIVIDED RESEARCHERS TO

THE EXTENT OF RUPTURING FRIENDSHIPS. THINK OF IT.

You cant think of anything?

How about what you have done to ruin friendships?

You have some nerve to try and say that its Armstrongs book that is dividing researchers

It is YOU who is dividing researchers!

You love this dont you? You love messing with peoples friendships because you have nothing in your sorry life but this fake story about you and Oswald

It never happened Judyth, you might be able to fool some people but trust me you dont fool me at all, I see right through you

I hope this really is the end of your using Jim to post all your fake stories on this forum

It makes me sick to watch you tell these fairy tales through Jim while you sit back and laugh about the friendships of his that you have ruined

IN RESPONSE TO JACK'S ATTACKS, JUDYTH HAS COMPOSED A POEM

NOTE: It seems to me only appropriate that Judyth should have the last

word on a thread devoted to her, which has now reached a record of 1,200

posts. Thanks to everyone who participated, including, especially, my dear

friend Jack. I should also observe that Ed Haslam will be featured as a guest

on "Coast to Coast" tomorrow night and will be talking about cancer-research,

bio-weapons, New Orleans, Judyth Vary Baker, and ME & LEE. Check it out.

FINAL THOUGHTS FROM JUDYTH

White's Little Sprite

Jack White--

just what Sprite

piped up, saying, "Dear Jim--

it seems, my old friend,

you write for Judyth, who's Dim!

She's surely unable

to write such replies--

She's dumb, and she rambles,

and has such bad eyes!

Oh Jim, I must chide you!

You surely can't be

posing as Vary ("Avary" to me!)--

She's simply unable

To write quite this well!"

(But WHO wrote this poem, Jack?

Prithee--do tell!)

I must say 'adieu," to sprites, trolls and gnomes,

I've miles to travel, between varied homes:

Yet I will posit--how else could it be

for Jack -- a believer--in "Harvey" and "Lee"

but to think that Another was taking my place

--and next, bring out photos

of an Imposter's face?

Jack, I'm still hoping

you'll remember your friend,

a man you once trusted

and should trust again.

JVB

SOME FINAL SUGGESTIONS FROM JIM:

Or visit this page: http://www.judythvarybaker.com/pages/Donate.htm

Ed Haslam maintains this page on behalf of Judty Vary Baker. And he will

appear on "Coast to Coast" tomorrow night, Thursday, 15 April 2010, to

discuss cancer research, bioweapons, and ME & LEE. Check it out! For

more on Judyth, visit her new blog at http://judythbaker.blogspot.com/

That is the worst poem I have ever laid eyes on and is not funny at all

Judyth I believe you owe Jack an apology for being so lame

Lee Foley has completely misread my posts .

From where im sitting it looks like you cant even read Lee's name

JVB sympathy? Lost the love of her life (knew him 4 months). In self imposed exile, a woman without a country

who is harassed to move around the world to escape from those who are out to get her. Is victim of endless

mysterious assaults, accidents and attacks. Has lost her family because of her LHO stand. Is so blind she has

a seeing eye dog and can only see her computer screen from an inch away. Has been harassed all over the

internet forums, from McAdams on the right to JFK Lancer on the left. Was ditched by Mary Ferrell, whom she

thought loved her. Had a husband who left her after one night of marriage, yet had five children by him. Was

blocked from her chosen medical profession by the CIA, which was afraid of her secret knowledge. Has been

double-crossed by JFK Lancer, Mary Ferrell, Bob Vernon, Wim Dankbaar, Harry Livingstone, Martin Shackleford,

Allan Eaglesham, etc etc etc and who knows who else? And to top it off, she has to type on a Hungarian keyboard!

That is the saddest story I have ever heard.

Jack

NOTE: Just for the record, Jack White has long been and will remain one of my favorite

personalities in JFK research. Until our divergence over Judyth, he and I have been on

the same side of virtually every battle fought about what happened to JFK. I am sorry

it has come to this, but my commitment to truth overrides loyalty to my friends when I

am convinced that they have lost their way. I respect Jack's right to his opinion about

Judyth and all other issues JFK. What I do not respect is his closed-mindedness and his

obvious unwillingness to consider the evidence. He has not read the books, listened to

the interviews, or even read the posts that Judyth and I have been making. And I find

it quite bizarre that he would think my ongoing pursuit of truth involving Judyth should

undermine (what he takes to be) my accomplishments in the past. Life is too complex

for such simplistic thinking to be reflective of the realities of the situation. Each of us

is free to agree with some of another student's research and reject other parts of it, as

I shall illustrate in relation to the work of another old friend, whose relationship has now

ruptured, David Lifton. For now, however, let me conclude by offering Judyth's replies.

Jim I cant believe I just read that

I feel so horrible right now

Jack and David didnt do this to your friendships, JUDYTH did this!

Please Jim step back and look at the big picture, is it really worth it to loose two great friends and research partners over a false story that never happened?

JUDYTH COMMENTS ABOUT SOME OF WHAT HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED HERE SO FAR

We are making progress. We have unmasked so many of the false rumors and statements that

had been traveling under the wire about me that were false, including each of the following:

1) John Simkin showing prejudice against me at once by implying I lied--corrected by Dr. Fetzer;

2) Jack White saying I'd been kicked off DellaRosa's forum for abusive posting--uncovered as untrue;

3) David Lifton's claims about the illegal taping he did have been uncovered as misrerpresenations,

where he has shown amazing and enduring prejudice by attempting to ignore those findings;

4) Barb's 'fact finding" has been proven (for those whose minds aren't closed) to be incompetent;

5) silly claims about me, such as that I changed my name from "Avary" to "Vary" because I hated my

family name, have been exposed;

6) the "Kankun" matter has been settled except for the McAdams' folks, who will never change;

7) the Walter Reed address code factor has been placed back where it belongs in the trivia box;

8) we have shown the truth about Oswald's Tooth, despite the websites that twisted everything I'd said;

9) we have shown that support for "Harvey" and "Lee" attending the same junior high is questionable;

9) we have established that HARVEY and LEE theories ignore some obvioius phoito distortions, where it

seems that Armstrong has been given, or made, bad copies that distorted Oswald: we have more to do;

10) we have established that the entire Murret family would have had to know "both" Harvey and Lee

due to the tooth matter, where Lillian purportedly paid for "Lee"s dental work, as Dr. Fetzer pointed out;

For some reason I am not excited at all about this book

Judyth

I respect Harry Livingstone alot, in fact High Treason is in my top 5 books on the assassination and one of the first I ever read

I really would love to read your reply to these posts from Barb and Kevin (quoting Martin)

I think this is a perfect chance to watch Judyth go crazy trying to defend these absurd actions she took with Harry