Steve Thomas
-
Posts
6,388 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Store
Posts posted by Steve Thomas
-
-
22 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:
Joe,
You had asked about the 100 dresses. You might be interested in this interview with George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt.
I had never seen it before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqySTi0-1YY
Steve Thomas
-
5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:
Steve,
Thanks for these FBI documents.
Mr. Trejo,
I wrote, "Among other things, he told the Embassy that “he was married on April 30, 1961 to Marian Nickolaevna Pusakova, a dental technician.”
You changed that to read, " “Among other things, he told the Embassy that “he was married on April 30, 1961 to Marian Nickolaevna P(r)usakova, a dental technician.”
I do not appreciate you altering my words. Do not do that again.
Steve Thomas
-
2 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:
Steve:
I'm not sure how the FBI would have an accurate count of Soviet spouses allowed to defect to the West. As Marina's legend goes, her father had been killed in the war and she lived with her stepfather and mother in Archangel, in the far north of Russia. She then moved to Moldova as a small child and then to Leningrad at age 12. Her Mother, Klavdia, died in 1957 and she moved to Minsk to live with her Uncle Ilya (and his wife Valya), a colonel in the MVD, the Soviet Interior Ministry security service. The notion of no father or mother invokes the imaginative portrait of an orphan being crafted into a deep-cover sleeper agent (and parallels that of Lee Harvey himself). Her testimony over the years contains contradictions and inconsistencies (e.g. she entered a pharmacy school - Pharmacy Technikum - for what the Warren Report later characterized “special training” when she was 14 years old). According to certain authors, Young Marina Prusakova's job in the health sector was a cover; she was actually a personal office clerk in the GRU. Marina is said to have associated with diplomats and high government bureaucrats in Leningrad, and her "clientele" allegedly was foreigners (she would later vaguely admit to being raped by an Afghan ambassador). The CIA purportedly wrote a 29-point report suspecting her of being an intelligence agent. At the beginning of the ARRB (during the 30th anniversary of the assassination), Marina was briefly open to discussion about her early Leningrad experiences. She was somehow involved with the LaFontaine’s and their 1996 book, "Oswald Talked". She also appeared on Oprah and refuted her original testimony about the rifle (she has since refused to make appearances). The INS in Dallas, Texas, have a file (A12530645) on Marina Nikolaevna Oswald, nee Prusakova.
Gene
Gene,
It's obvious that you have studied this case a whole lot more than I have.
As far as the FBI getting a count of Soviet spouses, they would be working with the State Department on visas, etc. especially on cases involving American defectors. For example:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=69&tab=page
Memo from John Noonan, Chief, Records and Service Branch, Office of Security, Department of State
To: J. Edgar Hoover, Director FBI May 17, 1962
Subject: American Defectors, Status of in the U.S.S. R.
lists five individuals
“Copies of the despatches(sic) on blank and blank were furnished to your Bureau and CIA via liason. If additional information is desired on any of the individuals, please advise, and we will endeavor to obtain it.”
With LHO, it was even more so:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=55&tab=page
FLASH BY BUREAU: Lee Harvey Oswald (maybe indent)
Any information or inquiry received, Notify Espionage Section, Div 5, Bu. (Ref. Memo. Dated 11-4-59 captioned Lee Harvey Oswald IS-R)
As far as Marina's occupation:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=85&tab=page
This a report by John Fain of the FBI dated July 10, 1962.
“A review of the files of the Passport Office” show that Oswald appeared at the American Embassy in Moscow on July 8, 1961. Among other things, he told the Embassy that “he was married on April 30, 1961 to Marian Nickolaevna Pusakova, a dental technician.”
I am not sure why the misspelling of her name. I don't know if that is Fain's mistake or not. I'll have to see if I can dig out the original July 8, 1961 State Department cable.
In his June 26, interview with John Fain, Oswald told Fain that , “By occupation his wife is a pharmacist.”
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=49&tab=page
From: Department of State, Division of Security 9/12/61
To: The Director, Federal Bureau of Investigation
Subject: Oswald, Marina N_cholaevna (garbled)
Visa Security Case
Occupation: laboratory assistant in Klinin _ _ _ skaya, Minsk (hospital)
I know she wrote a letter to John Tunheim saying that she believed LHO was the informant in the Miller/Whitter gunrunning case.
Steve Thomas
-
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=94&tab=page
On June 26, 1962. Oswald told FBI SA John Fain that while in Russia, “that he earned 80 rubles a month, which was the equivalent of about $72.00 per month in American money.”
Steve Thomas
-
23 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:
Was Oswald getting 45 rubles a month? 70 rubles a month? 700 rubles a month? Plus 700 rubles a month from the Red Cross for a total of 1,400 rubles a month??
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57690#relPageId=85&tab=page
On July 8, 1961 Oswald appeared at the American Embassy in Moscow. At that time, he informed the Embassy that “he was employed at the Belo Russian Radio and Television Factory in Minsk, Russia as a metal worker in the research shop. He gave his earnings as 90 rubles per month.”
45? 70? 90? 700?
hmmmm.....
Steve Thomas
-
1 hour ago, Robert Harper said:
the straight line of truth exists. And where there is true goodness, there is hope..
Robert,
And that's why I'm here.
Thank you.
Steve Thomas
-
2 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:
Interview of Former Special Agent James P. Hosty (1952 – 1979) by Jack O’Flaherty, Society of Former Special Agents of the FBI, on March 8, 2006:
We had an investigation on her under the SOBIR Program, that’s the Soviet Bloc Immigrants and Repatriates Program. They had information, good information from informants, defectors that the Soviets were going to infiltrate the United States with immigrants and repatriates to build up an illegal network of espionage in the event that the diplomatic immunity was taken away from the Embassy people and they could no longer operate. Then they would have a network in this country. There were certain criteria; they had to be within a certain age limit, had to have a certain educational limit and come from Soviet Bloc countries.
Marina fit the category perfectly. She was the only the third known Soviet spouse allowed to leave the Soviet Union with their non-Soviet spouse and go to the west. It turns out, we didn’t have it at the time, but as the investigation continued it turned out that Marina’s uncle, the man who raised her, she was an orphan, was raised by her uncle and aunt, her mother’s brother was a MVD Colonel, a full colonel in the MVD in the Gulag section of the prison section. Also, she was a registered pharmacist or the equivalent, the Russian equivalent of a pharmacist so she was not an ignorant little peasant girl as the press tried to pretend she was. You know, the sweet little girl. She was one tough cookie. I interviewed her after the assassination and believe me she isn’t what people think she was.
I’m not saying that she was involved. I don’t think she was involved in the assassination of Kennedy but we were looking at her for other reasons.
Gene,
Thanks for this. It fills in some blanks for me. "Only the third known Soviet spouse" huh? That's interesting.
Like Hosty, I've been wondering lately if Marina wasn't involved in something else, and then the assassination happened. It would have been nice if Hosty could have expounded on what the "other reasons for looking at her" were. Is the full interview online anywhere?
MVD and not GRU? I wonder where that came from?
It's those damned colonels again, I'm tellin ya...
Steve Thomas
-
Oswald's Diary (I have left the spelling errors intact)
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_24.pdf
Oct. 16. Arrive from Helsinki by train; am met by Intourest Repre. Meet my Intorist guied Rimma Sherikova
Oct. 17 – Rimma meets me for Intourist sighseeing
Oct. 20. Rimmer in the afternoon
Oct. 21. (attempted suicide) I think "when Rimma comes at 8. to find me dead it wil be a great shock. About 8 .00 Rimma finds my un-concious... Poor Riminea stays by my side
Oct. 22. Later in afternoon I am visited by Rimma, Later they leave, I am alone with Rimma
Oct. 23. Later Rimma visits
Oct. 24. Hospital routine, Rimina visits me in afternoon.
Oct. 26. Rimma visits.
Wed. Oct. 28 Leave hospital in intorist car, with Rimma for Hotel "Berlin" Rimma notifies me that, pass & registration office whshes to see me about my future. Later Rimma and car pick me up. Later Rimma comes to check on me
Oct. 31. I make my dision . Getting passport at 12"00 I meet and talk with Rimma for a few minutes
Nov.17 – Dec. 30 All meals I take in my room . Rinanea arranged that. I see no one speak to no-one accept every-now-and-than Rinunea,... During December I paid no money to the hotel, but Rimmer told Hotel I was expecting a lot of money from USA
I give up.
Steve Thomas
-
53 minutes ago, David Josephs said:
The space race was always about intercontinental missiles... the US couldn't care about the moon (other than getting there first)... they needed to deliver nukes without pilots... so the space race.
David,
Intercontinental missiles yes, but what about a base on the moon?
Wasn't the whole effort to "put a man on the moon"? Men do things, like mining, and man lookout posts, and operate forward bases and stuff.
(and teach Hosty Russian so he could interview Marina)
*smile*
PS: You wrote, " Besides... without the technical know-how, how would they know if what they stole was not CI from us?"
I once read that Oswald was deliberately sent to Russia to leak the information about the U-2 because by then, the U-2 was old hat.
Steve Thomas
-
32 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:
It seems to me that Marina was far too occupied with the daily struggle to deal and cope with and finding an escape from the more and more basic needs stressed life she and their child were experiencing with Lee than to be carrying out secret covert instructions from others.
Joe,
I do not want to make light of your thoughts. It's obvious that you have spent a lot of time thinking about this, and I respect that.
I do not know if Marina was a sleeper agent or not. I haven't come to a conclusion.
My only thoughts were:
If Gary Taylor can be believed, at 23 years of age, Marina was making four times what Lee was making in the Soviet Union. Who do you think was the breadwinner here?
Marina marries Oswald six weeks after meeting him. (She did the same with Kenneth Porter. She married him one month after meeting him).
She's got an uncle who's a colonel in the GRU. She's plucked from obscurity and flown halfway around the world. Eight months later she's writing the Soviet Union trying to get back. She says it's because Lee was forcing her to, but who knows?
As for living in poverty here in the U.S., I think it was DeMohrenschildt who told the WC that she must have had over one hundred dresses.
When Gary Taylor moved them to Elsbeth St., he had to rent a trailer to carry their belongings. When Demohrenschildt moved her out of Elsbeth on a temporary separation from Lee, his car was so full, it was dragging on the ground; but when they moved from Elsbeth to Neely, they moved their belongings in a baby stroller. What happened to all their furniture?
Her sojourn in the U.S. could be analagous to a lower-level mob guy who's asked to sit it out for a couple of years in the pen and not rat the boss out, with the promise that the boss will make it up to him after he does his stretch.
*shrug* I don't know.
Steve Thomas
-
58 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:
I do think KGB and CIA, or elements of it, both played a part in the assassination of JFK. And Marina was at the center of it all.
Pamela,
I had never really considered that in years past, but lately I've begun to wonder.
Steve Thomas
-
10 minutes ago, David Josephs said:
While I agree with what you post I have to ask if you've considered the overriding purpose of Soviet CI - disinformation.
Of course they wanted to catch up with the technology... no doubt... but like today, I firmly see the effort focused on getting the Western world to believe things about the Soviets when the opposite was true...
Steve - what are your thoughts about Golitsyn and his message?
Sun Tzu...
David,
You wrote, "but like today, I firmly see the effort focused on getting the Western world to believe things about the Soviets when the opposite was true..."
Could you expand on that a little bit? What do you think their counter-intelligence efforts were in the early 1960's?
While I know that Russian, Yuri Gagarin was the first man to orbit the earth, I still think the Russians were way behind the U.S. in space technology and nuclear weapons technology.
I'm sorry. I've never really delved into Golytsin. I'm not trying to be evasive. It's just not something I've spent a lot of time on.
Sun Tzu and Golytsin and the aerospace industry at the same time? Are you trying to kill me?*smile*
Steve Thomas
-
I was looking for something else and got caught up in this:
WC testimony of Gary Taylor
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/taylor1.htm
Mr. TAYLOR. “All right. Lee, on various occasions, and I discussed the life that he led in Russia,... That he worked as a sheet-metal fabricator in the town of Minsk, and received for his remuneration for his work 45 rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that everyone in Russia receives whether they work or not.
A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the house apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to pay for it.
I believe he said Marina received 180 rubles a month for her work as a pharmacist.
(If he was making 45 rubles a month, Marina was making 4 times what he was making. At age 23, she was making as much as someone who retired after 20 years or so of service).
Mr. TAYLOR. In other words, for length of time at your machine, for example. When you first come to work, like Lee, and you make 45 rubles a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time, he gets a raise over and above that.
Mr. TAYLOR. That is the impression I received. I believe he said that someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age I don't remember what that was--would be receiving something just under 200 rubles a month for performing the same task.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about the context of 180 rubles a month earned by Marina and 45 rubles a month earned by Oswald?
Mr. TAYLOR. I don't remember any specific comments that he made about that. The only thing I remember in this regard w. as that he did mention at one time that Marina had a higher education than he had and that--uh--I don't believe I ever heard him say anything else about it.Mr. TAYLOR. That this is one of the reasons why I would never have asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more money. He seemed very depressed about how the Russians had treated him.
Mr. JENNER. Did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that he----
Mr. TAYLOR. It appeared that he would be sensitive if I had broached the subject.Taylor said that Oswald told him, “A Russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the house apartment, a place to live, a Russian citizen does not have to pay for it. There is no charge for this.”
Oswald's “Diary”
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/pdf/WH16_CE_24.pdf
Jan 4. “The offial(sic)... tells me that they have arranged for me to recive(sic) some
money though the Red Cross to pay my hotel bills and expensis(sic).”
Jan. 5. I go to Red Cross in Moscow for money with Interrupter(sic) (a new one) I recive(sic) 5000. rubles a huge sum!! Later in Mink(sic) I am to earn 70 rubles a month at the factory.”
There are three things in this two sentence diary entry that caught my eye:
-
Lee Oswald couldn't spell worth a damn.
-
He is going to the Red Cross with a “new interpreter” Why?
-
5,000 rubles. If he was making 45 rubles a month as he told Gary Taylor (see above), that's 9.25 years worth of salary. If he was making 70 rubles a month as he says in this diary entry(see above), that's 6 years worth of salary.
Jan. 13-16 "I work as a "checker" metal worker, pay : 700 rubles a month, work very easy,... I recive(sic) a check from the Red Cross every 5th of the month "to help”. The check is 700 rubles. Therefore every month I make 1400. R . about the same as the Director of the factory!”
No diary entries for two months.
March 16. I recive(sic) a small flat one-room kicten(sic)-bath near the factory (8 min. walk) with splendid view from 2 balconies of the river, almost rent free (60. rub. a mon.) It is a Russians dream.”
Was Oswald getting 45 rubles a month? 70 rubles a month? 700 rubles a month? Plus 700 rubles a month from the Red Cross for a total of 1,400 rubles a month??
If Oswald was receiving 45 rubles a month, as Gary Taylor said; his pay would be less than his rent.
Or, was Oswald living rent-free, as he told Taylor?
Is Oswald's Diary just a total fabrication?
Steve Thomas
-
-
11 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:
I keep my mind open to just about all possibilities with regard to Marina. I really do think she may be the Rosetta stone of the assassination. She is much smarter than most people realize and came from an intelligence background.
Pamela,
In my mind, in the early 1060's, the Russians had two main priorities in their intelligence gathering efforts: nuclear weapons and space flight.
While important in their own right; other things like the Berlin Wall, Vietnam, Cuba, etc were secondary.
I have begun to think that there was an attempt to get Marina to Fort Worth in an effort to get her close to the aerospace industry there for some reason; why, I don't know. If that's the case, I don't know if she was supposed to get information from somebody, or if she was supposed to give information to somebody.
The Oswald had arrived in Fort Worth in June, 1962. Eight months later, on February 17, 1963 Marina writes letter to Soviet Embassy in Washington requesting their assistance in getting her back to Russia. Lee is to remain in the U.S.
(16H10)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=34&tab=page
Steve Thomas
-
I don't have any answers, but I'm left with a lot of questions.
James Hosty:
Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her.
I might add that it is the practice of the FBI to interview immigrants from behind the Iron Curtain on a selective basis, and she was so selected to be one of these persons to be interviewed.
Mr. STERN. When was this?
Mr. HOSTY. This was March 4, 1963,On March 11th: “...the fact that I knew I would be interviewing his wife in the near future, I requested that the case be reopened.”
Mr. HOSTY. The next day was the 1st of November. (He is there for 20-25 minutes, and spends his time talking to Ruth Paine).
Mr. HOSTY. No; towards the conclusion of the interview, Marina Oswald, who had apparently been napping, entered the living room.
She became quite alarmed,
So I didn't want to leave her in that state, so rather than just walking out and leaving her and not saying anything to her, I told Mrs. Paine to relate to her in the Russian language that I was not there for the purpose of harming her, harassing her, and that it wasn't the job of the FBI to harm people. It was our job to protect people. Mrs. Paine relayed this information. I assume she relayed it correctly. I don't speak Russian.
She seemed to calm down a little bit, and when I left she was smiling.
So she apparently was smiling, happy, and she shook hands with me as I left, I wanted to-leave her in a good frame of mind. I then left.
Mr. STERN. Did you have any thought of interviewing Marina Oswald at the time she came into Mrs. Paine's living room in connection with the investigation of Marina Oswald that you had started out thinking about in March?
Mr. HOSTY. Yes; I could have interviewed her here, but I thought at the time she was under a little emotional stress, this was maybe not a good time. Also, as I said before, we have a requirement to have two agents present when a subject is interviewed. I was alone.Mr. HOSTY. Yes. Then on the 5th of November, I was on my way to the Fort Worth area, and stopped at Mrs. Paine's very briefly. I had another agent with me that day.
Mr. STERN. Who Was that?
Mr. HOSTY. Agent Gary S. Wilson. Agent Wilson was a brand new agent out of training school.Mr. STERN. Was Marina Oswald present at all?
Mr. HOSTY. I didn't see her. She was probably in the house, but I didn't see her. I didn't go in the house. I just went in the front door.
Mr. STERN. How long do you think it was?
Mr. HOSTY. Not more than 1 or 2 minutes. Then I got in the car and left.To the best of my knowledge (and I could be wrong). Other than that brief exchange on November 1st, James Hosty has never spoken to Marina Oswald directly.
Why?
I asked in another thread of there is any record or any transcript of any individual in any government agency interviewing, grilling, or interrogating Marina Oswald prior to the assassination. Maybe it's my poor research skills, but I haven't seen any.
Why?
The first non-family person who makes contact with the Oswalds upon their arrival in Fort Worth is the Head of Security for a company that is involved in the aerospace industry; someone who is a Major in the U.S. Air Force Reserves, who has a security clearance up to and including Top Secret, - who then passes Marina along to two other people involved with intelligence - George Bouhe (who "keeps files on everybody"), and George DeMohrenschildt.
Why?
Steve Thomas
-
3 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:
Mr. Hosty told me that he thought Marina was a sleeper agent.
Pamela,
I have been mulling over this for the last couple of days.
If Marina was sent here, do you think she was supposed to provide information to someone, or to learn something from someone?
And why were they trying to get Marina back to Russia in 1963?
I told Gene Kelly that I thought that someone; knowing that Lee Oswald was from Fort Worth, was trying awfully hard to get Marina into the Fort Worth community. If that were the case, then why?
I find it very odd that the people who took Marina under their wing, were an ultra-right, anti-communist group.
Max Clark seems to be the first. I was reading the other day that he was employed by Convair, a division of General Dynamics as a "Supervisor of Industrial Security and Investigation."
Among the clients his law firm represented, was CVAC Fort Worth, where he "manifested unusual interest with respect to security matters under investigation by calling for files and reading open files in the Investigation Office of CVAC..."
CVAC Stands for Consolidated Vultee Aircraft Corporation. "The Consolidated Vultee Aircraft Corporation, whose name was in the course of time changed to Convair, was an American aircraft, rocket, and spacecraft company for the design, development, and manufacturing of aerospace products. The company was formed in 1943 by the merger of Consolidated Aircraft and Vultee Aircraft, and went on to produce aircraft such as the Convair B-36 bomber, the F-102 Delta Dagger, the F-106 Delta Dart, the B-58 Hustler bomber, as well as the Convair 880 and Convair 990 jet airliners. It also manufactured the first Atlas rockets, including the rockets that were used for the manned orbital flights of Project Mercury. The company's subsequent Atlas-Centaur design continued this success and derivatives of the design remain in use as of 2017. In 1994 most of the company's divisions were sold by then-owners General Dynamics to McDonnell Douglas and Lockheed, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair
There's a biographical rundown on Max Clark here:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9836&relPageId=3
Ignore the 1952 disparaging remarks by an "OSI informant of known reliability", and just focus on Clark's connections.
When Marina took up with Ruth Paine, her husband Michael was employed by Bell Helicopter, another flight-oriented company.
Do you think there might be a connection in the aerospace industry?
Steve Thomas
-
1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:
Steve:
things that are too sensitive and thoroughly protected, things that the country/government cannot afford to reveal.
The background and true nature of Marina Prusakova seems to be one of them.
Gene
Gene or anyone else for that matter,
Just as the "Great Game" played out between Great Britain and Russia in the nineteenth century, any ideas on what the "Game" was here?
Was the idea to turn her and send her back perhaps?
Steve Thomas
-
I have read that a lot of people were surprised by the speed and ease with which Marina was allowed to leave the Soviet Union.
Is there a record of Marina being grilled or interrogated by U.S. authorities either before or after her arrival in the U.S.?
Steve Thomas
-
8 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:
Steve: If you play this out for a moment, the FBI presents an investigative threat (if Marina truly is operational) but the Secret Service is simply protecting a key witness/suspect (i.e. her) and presumably not as interested in her affiliations.
What doesn't compute is that she marries an oddball foreigner after knowing him for just six weeks, has a child with him, and uproots her life to move to another country where she does not speak the language or know anyone. Somebody really wanted her to get to Irving TX ...
Gene
Gene,
I agree. The FBI was a threat, I think because they were not on-board with whatever game was being played. The FBI and the CIA did not play well with each other.
The speed and ease with which the Soviet authorities allowed Marina to leave Russia surprised a lot of people. The Russians were notorious for making it difficult for Russian citizens to leave.
More than Irving, I think they wanted to get her to Fort Worth.
You know, what's missing in the record is any serious attempt by the U.S. authorities to interview Marina, either before or after her arrival in the U.S.
I wonder why.
Steve Thomas
-
14 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:
Steve
Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them.
For Marina to marry Oswald, they needed to get special permission because he was a foreigner ... nonetheless, permission was granted in just ten days, for no less than an MVD colonel's niece marrying a U.S. defector.
Apparently the Soviet government encouraged Marina and Oswald to marry and emigrate.
In June of 1962, Oswald with wife and a four months old child returned to the United States. Soon Lee and Marina were surrounded by a 'platoon' of Russian-speaking people (White Russians) eager to help the young couple.
Today, it is an accepted fact that the White Russian Community in Texas was funded by the CIA through the Philadelphia-based Catherwood Foundation and the Tolstoy Foundation. One such individual you've pointed out was Paul Raigorodsky,
Gene,
She didn't like the FBI, but fawned all over the Secret Service. Marguerite hated the Secret Service guys - Howard and Kunkel.
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. "Well, Miss Alexandra Tolstoy is a daughter of our great novelist, Leo Tolstoy, and I guess you know him, and she came to this country and she organized a Tolstoy Foundation, which takes care of Russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be. They process them, which means that they know all about them before they come into here I am on the Board of Directors of the Tolstoy Foundation. Now, anybody who comes to the Tolstoy Foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked, rechecked and double checked. There is no question about them. I mean, that's the No. 1 stamp."
Do you know if the Travelers Aid Society, who met the Oswalds on their arrival in the U.S. operated under the aegis of the Tolstoy Foundation?
I have wondered why the staunchly conservative, anti-communist White Russians would take the Oswalds under their wing.
Marina, who's coming out of communist Russia, the niece of a GRU Colonel; and Lee, a pro-communist spouting defector.
Lee, I think you can write off. Somebody (I don't remember who right now) described him as a "useful idiot". I've found that to be the case wherever he went (from McVickar at the Russian Embassy, to Carlos Bringuer in New Orleans); but Marina is another story. The way I look at it, she was either totally innocent, or a very good intelligence agent.
If she was an intelligence agent, she fumbled her answers about the rifle on Neely St., the cameras she took the rifle pictures with and the Nixon episode pretty badly.
See Chapter 11 of Sylvia Meagher's, Accessories After the Fact
https://www.krusch.com/books/kennedy/Accessories_After_The_Fact.pdf
Chapter 11, page 238. (p. 273 of the pdf file).
Steve Thomas
-
1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:
Steve:
Marina married Kenneth Porter on June 1, 1965, about a year and seven months after the assassination (another whirlwind courtship).
Gene
Gene,
Life Magazine June 11, 1965. page 42.
"Wedding of the Week: In Fate, Texas"
"Marina and Porter had known known each other a little more than a month."
Steve Thomas
-
3 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:
Steve
No worries ... if I get back on thread here, the question is, why would Hosty want to "interview" Marina, if she didn't speak English?
Gene
Gene,
Your response of 1/27/18 cited above contains so many elements that it would take a half a book for me to reply to all of them. My hats off to you.
*smile*
Yeah, my original question was "how" Hosty expected to talk to Marina, unless he knew something that we don't.
In later FBI interviews, Marina is questioned by at least two agents, one of them (Anatole Boguslav) who knew Russian. The Secret Service used Russian-speaking, Leon Gopadze. How could Hosty expect to do that operating in the field, by himself? Something doesn't add up.
Max and Gali Clark are under studied I think.
I know that this is going to sound crazy, but I have a strong suspicion that it was Marina who ordered the rifle. I'll be happy to discuss that with you in a separate thread, if you like, but it goes back to her statements that the Oswalds were living on Neely St. in January.
You wrote, " In April 1961, a little more than a month since their first meeting, Oswald proposes to Marina."
I was astonished to learn that she did the same thing with her new husband, Kenneth Porter in 1965. I think I read that she married Porter about a month after meeting him.
Steve Thomas
-
15 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:
Chris,
Hosty said, " Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case. He had a case which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her."
Back up six months from March. That takes you into the September, 1962 time frame or so. I think the Oswalds arrived in Fort Worth in August. I haven't read Fain's reports, so I'm not exactly sure when he retired and closed this "pending inactive case", but it sounds like there was some kind of internal FBI trigger that got activated after six months went by. In the meanwhile, Marina's case gets flipped back and forth between New Orleans and Dallas as the Oswalds move. Marina is still Hosty's focus, but he sees Ruth as a way in. Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School, tells Hosty that "Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual."
That's bureaucratese for "a source who has provided reliable information in the past" or other such gobblygook that you see at the end of FBI reports.
Marina's case wasn't a "routine, random check of an immigrant/alien". The U.S. was deadly serious about communist attempts to infiltrate the U.S. by having intelligence agents marry U.S. citizens and bringing them back to the U.S.; especially in Marina's case.
I was reading through the State Department correspondence relating to LHO's defection and re-defection. There was a battle going on within the State Department between Marina's "non quota status" and the quota for Russian immigrants. Somebody was pushing for letting LHO bring Marina back with him, even though the quota for Russians had been reached.
For example, look at page 63 of this CIA file: LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH
"security advisory opinions", "waiver of sanctions" "checks with the CIA, the FBI, the State Department Office of Security"...
Somewhere in those 300 pages is the legalese back and forth, but eventually the quota problem was overcome. Marina's case was not normal.
Steve Thomas
Gene,
First of all, I'm sorry, I called you Chris in my earlier post. Sorry, that was a brain **rt.
Second, I think I misspoke a little when I said that the fight over Marina was a battle within the State Department. I think really it was a battle between the CIA and State.
Oswald said he wanted to come back., but he wouldn't come back unless he could bring Marina. The CIA said "sure, ok", but the State Department put its foot down and said "no", and the fight was on. That's why it took a year. In 1961 Oswald said he wanted to come back, but it took until 1962 for that to happen. The problem wasn't the Russians, it was the Americans.
Steve Thomas
-
5 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:
Chris/Steve:
Are you suggesting that the real reason for Hosty to be there is Ruth? I'm unsure where this all leads, but one thing that strikes me is that, he started this "surveillance" in March, and eight months is a long time to keep a case open for a routine random check of an immigrant/alien. Hosty by then is at bell, and asking about Michael, plus visiting Ruth's school (St. Mark) where she teaches Russian part-time (for two students). Hosty's attention seems to transcend Marina by that point in time.
Gene
Chris,
Hosty said, " Mr. HOSTY. No, sir; I did not take over directly. When Agent Fain retired directly from the Bureau he had closed the case. He had a case which we call a pending inactive case on Mrs. Marina Oswald. This case I did take over. It was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of 6 months. Then at the end of the 6-month period it was then turned into a pending case and I went out and attempted to locate Mrs. Marina Oswald for the purpose of interviewing her."
Back up six months from March. That takes you into the September, 1962 time frame or so. I think the Oswalds arrived in Fort Worth in August. I haven't read Fain's reports, so I'm not exactly sure when he retired and closed this "pending inactive case", but it sounds like there was some kind of internal FBI trigger that got activated after six months went by. In the meanwhile, Marina's case gets flipped back and forth between New Orleans and Dallas as the Oswalds move. Marina is still Hosty's focus, but he sees Ruth as a way in. Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School, tells Hosty that "Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual."
That's bureaucratese for "a source who has provided reliable information in the past" or other such gobblygook that you see at the end of FBI reports.
Marina's case wasn't a "routine, random check of an immigrant/alien". The U.S. was deadly serious about communist attempts to infiltrate the U.S. by having intelligence agents marry U.S. citizens and bringing them back to the U.S.; especially in Marina's case.
I was reading through the State Department correspondence relating to LHO's defection and re-defection. There was a battle going on within the State Department between Marina's "non quota status" and the quota for Russian immigrants. Somebody was pushing for letting LHO bring Marina back with him, even though the quota for Russians had been reached.
For example, look at page 63 of this CIA file: LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH
"security advisory opinions", "waiver of sanctions" "checks with the CIA, the FBI, the State Department Office of Security"...
Somewhere in those 300 pages is the legalese back and forth, but eventually the quota problem was overcome. Marina's case was not normal.
Steve Thomas
Oswald's astrology
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
I never realized this before.
Lee Oswald was a Libra. Marina was a Cancer.
Their astrolgical signs were squared.
No wonder they didn't get along.
Steve Thomas