Steve Thomas
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Posts posted by Steve Thomas
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On 12/26/2017 at 12:47 AM, Ron Bulman said:
How did they?... Ever been to the back side of the TSBD or Dal-Tex? No mention to my knowledge of anybody from the DPD rushing there after it either.
They didn't go out the back door. The Secret Service guys stationed back there told D.V. Harkness so.
*smile*
Steve Thomas
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Seems to me that you can spend a lot of time arguing about the "what ifs" and the "why nots", but the bottom line is that you don't have anyone who can place Lee Harvey Oswald at the scene of the crime during the shooting, and you don't have any eyewitnesses seeing him fleeing the scene of the crime.
Who's to say that he didn't simply got tired of waiting for the elevator to come back up and just quietly and calmly walked back down the stairs? Or even crossed the room and walked down the stairs by the front elevator? (Were there stairs by the front elevator that went up to the sixth floor)?
One's as good a conjecture as another. It's all speculation anyway.
Steve Thomas
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On 12/24/2017 at 3:12 AM, Steve Thomas said:
CD 1085
In June, 1963 Andrés Nazario Sargén wrote Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro a letter and urged him to establish a chapter of Alpha 66 in Dallas. Orcarberro moved to Dallas in September, 1963.
On May 25, 1964, Manuel Rodriguez voluntarily appeared at the Dallas FBI offices and spoke to Wallace Heitman. He told Heitman that the members of SNFE met at bi-weekly meetings at 3126 Harlandale. (Although in his Report, Heitman spelled it Hollandale.)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=222&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11481#relPageId=219&tab=page
Heitman had previously interviewed Orcarberro on February 10, 1964 and May 10, 1964.
Informant T-1 had told Heitman that Orcarberro had lived at 5310 Columbia in Dallas.
According to Heitman, Rodririguez said he registered as an alien of Dallas, TX on September 6, 1963, at which time his address was reflected as 1208 Hudspeth St. His last prior address was listed as 5310 Columbia St., Dallas.
CE 2390 (25H370)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1141#relPageId=400&tab=page
FBI Agent Wallace Heitman interview of Osvaldo Aurelio Pino Pino July 8, 1964
Resides at 719 N. Bishop St. in Dallas and is employed at El Chico Restaurant warehouse. Pino state that he is a member of SNFE. “He said that he remembers that a general reunion of various Cuban refugees had been held several months ago at a picnic grounds near White Rock Lake, and that a woman by the name of Odio had made a short speech at the reunion.”
This may be Annie Odio and not Sylvia.
WC testimony of Sylvia Odio:
http://jfkassassinat...timony/odio.htm
Sylvia Odio, July 22, 1964…. we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino spoke… she (Lucille Connell) went to that meeting. I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get upset about it…. He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in Cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Connell?
Mrs. ODIO. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too.REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE
NARA Record Number: 104-10320-10070
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726&relPageId=2
On pages 4 through 5 of that Report, Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro furnished a list of the present officers of SNFE. Among the list of Officers is Osvaldo Pino Pino.
Steve Thomas
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16 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:
LEE HARVEY OSWALD COLOR 8MM HOME MOVIES 11-22-1962, ONE YEAR BEFORE JFK ASSASSINATION.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsrJ6a9rldU
Douglas,
I never realized how big Oswald's hands were.
He sure seems ill at ease in this social setting. Look at his body language.
Steve Thomas
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10 hours ago, David Boylan said:
Steve,
This is important information. I'm surprised there no comments.
David,
Thank you. I think it is.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20215/215e.pdf
p. 187
25H371, CE 2390 and CD 1546 p. 188.
FBI interview of Felix Guillermo Othon Pacho by SA Wallace Heitman on September 8, 1964.
Othon was the DRE delegate in Dallas after Sarah Castillo. Othon told Heitman that Manuel Salvat had come to Dallas from Miami in September or October, 1963 and that a meeting of about thirty or forty Cubans and Americans had been held at a bank near White Rock Lake. The meeting had been organized by Mr. Dean Perkins, who was sympathetic to the Cuban cause.
Othon said that he was known as Bill Othon in Dallas among Americans. He said he was employed by Forrest and Cotton Engineers, Mercantile Continental Building, Dallas.
Is George Parrel Felix Guillermo Othon Pacho, or Fermin De Goicochea?
CD 1085
In June, 1963 Andrés Nazario Sargén wrote Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro a letter and urged him to establish a chapter of Alpha 66 in Dallas. Orcarberro moved to Dallas in September, 1963.
On May 25, 1964, Manuel Rodriguez voluntarily appeared at the Dallas FBI offices and spoke to Wallace Heitman. He told Heitman that the members of SNFE met at bi-weekly meetings at 3126 Harlandale. (Although in his Report, Heitman spelled it Hollandale.)
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...p;relPageId=222On November 23 and 26, 1963 Buddy Walthers writes a Supplementary Investigation Report addressed to Bill Decker. A group of Cubans have been having meetings at 3126 Harlendale St. “on the weekends over the past few months”. “Subject Oswald has been to this house before”.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0276b.htm
Commission Document 946 - SS Aragon Report of 5 May 1964 re: Sylvia Odio, Rogelio Cisneros Diaz page 3
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11342&search=%22Juan_Martin%22#relPageId=4&tab=page
On May 4, 1964 in an interview in his home with SS Agent Ernest I. Aragon, Cisneros told Aragon that:
Rogelio Cisneros, a JURE member in Miami, went to Dallas alone, by plane in June, 1963 for the specific purpose of meeting Sylvia Odio who was supposed to introduce Cisneros to a Uruguayan named Juan Martin, who was interested in selling small arms to JURE.
The JURE office in Dallas was already in operation, having been established in May, 1963. He only contacted Sylvia Odio once. Cisneros was accompanied by Jorge Rodriguez (Alvarada) (Alvereda?), their Dallas delegate, and no one else.
TESTIMONY OF SYLVIA ODIO
The testimony of Sylvia Odio was taken at 9 a.m., on July 22, 1964http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/odio.htm
Mrs. ODIO. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, I and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.
That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution.On April 24, 1964 SS Chief Rowley wrote a Memorandum to J. Lee Rankin of the Warren Commission. This memo is CD 853
http://www.maryferre...amp;relPageId=2
This memo was in response to a letter from Rankin to Rowley dated April 22, 1964. The topic was Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro and the Cuban exile community. Some of the things in Rowley’s memo were:
1/16/64 Frank Ellsworth was interviewed about Orcarberro.
Ellsworth had been working undercover gathering evidence against John Thomas Masen.
Masen told Ellsworth that Orcarberro had been trying to buy guns and bazookas from Masen.
Masen told Ellsworth that Rodriguez and George F. Parrel were leaders of the local DRE and also members of Alpha-66
Masen told Ellsworth that George Parrel, an associate of Orcarberro, had also been trying to buy guns from him.
They had made purchases from him and that they presently have a large cache of arms located somewhere in Dallas, although he did not know the location.
Parrel was a student at Dallas City College.Steve Thomas
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9 hours ago, David Boylan said:
Steve,
The descriptions are all over the place as usual. 5'7" to 6'0"? Could be anybody.
David,
I thought maybe I would start collecting references to him. See if there's any pattern.
Here's what I have so far:
1) CIA cable Lee Henry Oswald is 5'10” weighing 165 lbs, light brown, wavy hair with blue eyes.
October 10, 1963
http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=110013&relPageId=2
2) CIA cable to Dep't of State, FBI and Dep't of Navy
October 1, 1963
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/157-10014-10242.pdf
p. 436 “Probably identical to Lee Henry Oswald” 5'10”, light brown wavy hair, blue eyes.
3) Stringfellow Cable
In this referenced cable, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with light brown hair and blue eyes.
4) The initial description broadcast over the DPD radio was for a suspect 5"10" tall weighing 165 lbs and nobody knows where that description came from.
I wonder if the following isn't the original source of so many reports to follow in the coming years:
5) Report of John Fain (FBI Dallas) dated July 3, 1961. CE 980 p. 388
1 copy to ONI New Orleans
On April 28, 1960 Mrs. Marguerite Oswald provided the following physical description of Lee Harvey Oswald:
5'10" tall, 165 lbs light brown wavy hair, blue eyes.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=399&tab=page
Steve Thomas
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2 hours ago, David Boylan said:
Page 421. LHO was in the company a very tall American at the dance party In Mexico City. Hemming?
Page 434-441 more Lee Henry Oswald. 6 foot tall, athletic build.
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/157-10014-10242.pdf
David,
Here's that 5'10" 165 lb Lee Oswald with light brown wavy hair and blue eyes again. (p. 436)
Who is this guy? He pops up everywhere.
Compare that to Oswald's physical description on p. 443. (5'9" 140 lbs)
Steve Thomas
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7 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:
Mr. BALL. Well, did you ever make any---did you ever say that it was a 7.65 Mauser?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I am sure I did not.
Mr. BALL. Or did you think it was such a thing?
Mr. FRITZ. No, sir; I did not.Mr. BALL - Who referred to it as a Mauser that day?
Mr. BOONE - I believe Captain Fritz. He had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like.Steve Thomas
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7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:
And since Oswald wasn't seen by anyone running down the stairs, you think that means it was IMPOSSIBLE for him to have done so?
Did Adams and Styles see Baker and Truly coming up the same stairs they were on?
Answer: No.
Does that mean that Baker & Truly never went up those stairs?
Answer: No.
So I assume the above comment, Steve, means that you now believe that Howard Brennan never even attended a lineup at the Dallas Police Department at all, is that right?
If so, you must think this testimony is just a bunch of made-up crap invented by Mr. Brennan, correct?....
DAVID BELIN -- "Now, taking you down to the Dallas Police Station, I believe you said you talked to Captain Fritz. And then what happened?"
HOWARD BRENNAN -- "Well, I was just more or less introduced to him in Mr. Sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which I did."
Yes, indeed, his prints most certainly were found in various places on the sixth floor---on two different boxes which were located DEEP INSIDE the assassin's Sniper's Nest. Plus, two LHO prints on the 38-inch brown paper bag that several police officers said they saw in the corner of the Nest before it was picked up. And, of course, Oswald's prints were, as already mentioned, on the Carcano rifle that Oswald ditched between some boxes in the northwest corner of the sixth floor.
And, IMO, the reason there weren't more of LHO's prints on the rifle is because he very likely utilized his brown shirt as a fingerprint-wiping rag right after the assassination, wiping as many prints from the rifle as he could as he ran across the sixth floor. He then ditched the rifle near the stairwell and then put the brown shirt back on as he ran down the stairs, leaving it untucked and unbuttoned (hence the reason Marrion Baker thought the brown SHIRT resembled a JACKET).
All that stuff I just mentioned is my own opinion, and needs to be identified as just that--my OPINION--but it fits very nicely with some of the physical evidence in the case, and it fits fairly well with some of the witnesses who said the shooter was wearing only a "light-colored" or a "white" shirt (which would have been Oswald's white T-shirt, of course). He probably had the brown shirt resting on the floor (or on a box) as he pulled the trigger at 12:30. Plus, my "Used The Shirt To Wipe Fingerprints" theory fits nicely with the evidence of similar shirt fibers being wedged in the butt plate of the rifle. As he was wiping off prints, fibers from the shirt could have easily found their way under the butt plate.
Check out Commission Exhibit No. 637 (which is Oswald's palmprint, taken off the rifle by Lt. J.C. Day on 11/22/63). Also see this important (often overlooked) document.
Now, if you were referring to the FINGERprints on the trigger guard of the rifle....well, those prints were definitely photographed and were examined in detail by many fingerprint experts---one of whom (Vincent Scalice) said:
"We're able for the first time to actually say that these are definitely the fingerprints of Lee Harvey Oswald, and that they are on the rifle. There is no doubt about it." -- Vincent J. Scalice; 1993 [See the first video on this page.]
And although I myself have never seen the photos of the trigger guard fingerprints, some of the pictures of those prints are shown on camera in the 1993 PBS program "Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?" (during the Scalice segment linked above).
I believe that Howard Brennan was brought down to Police Headquarters on the evening of November 23rd to ID Oswald as the shooter and at that time he failed to identify Oswald as such, as is indicated on the lineup card in the DPD Archives, Box 6, Folder# 1, Item# 73, page 3
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm
I know the reasons for refusing to identify Oswald that he gave later, but as far as evidentiary value in a trial, I'll go with the lineup card.
I am not saying that it was impossible for Oswald to have run down the stairs unseen.
I am saying that you don't have any eyewitnesses seeing Oswald fleeing the scene.
The palmprint shown in CE 637 was introduced in evidence in WC (4H23-24).
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=34#relPageId=32&tab=page
Day told the WC that traces of the palmprint were still evident after lifting it off the rifle. Latona of the FBI said that when the FBI got the rifle, there were no traces of a palmprint, or even any evidence that someone had tried to process it.
637 was not sent to the FBI along with the other evidence on the 22nd. It was not sent until the 26th. He told the WC,
"Mr. BELIN. Is there any particular reason why this was not released on the 22d?
Mr. DAY. The gun was being sent in to them for process of prints. Actually I thought the print on the gun was their best bet, still remained on there..."http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/day1.htm
This kind of evidence is worthless.
Steve Thomas
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Mr. FRITZ. That first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was beginning to faint and getting sick.
In fact, I had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all right after using this ammonia.What? He kept some in his desk drawer?
He could find some ammonia right quick, but tape recorders? fuggeddaboutit.
Steve Thomas
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Oswald could easily have run down the stairs in 90 seconds.
But, I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Could you please provide me the name of the eyewitness who saw him running down the stairs?
Don't you think it's odd that you have the only eyewitness to the man committing the greatest crime of the 20th Century, and neither the Chief of Police, or the Captain of the Homicide Bureau could bother to be at the lineup where the perpetrator is identified?
Again, I'm sorry, but were Lee Harvey Oswald's fingerprints found anywhere else on the sixth floor?
Please show me the fingerprints taken off the rifle. I'd like to see the actual prints please.
Steve Thomas
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On 12/19/2017 at 12:04 PM, Douglas Caddy said:
I mean that pretty well cinches it doesn't it?
If you don't have any eyewitnesses, "We can't place Oswald at that window with a gun in his hand." (Jesse Curry)
and you don't have Oswald's prints on the rifle that was found in the TSBD, even if you could prove it was his rifle,
and he's got an alibi by being seen on the second floor within 90 seconds of the shooting, and nobody saw him coming down the stairs...
there's no court in the land that would convict him beyond a reasonable doubt of being the shooter .
Steve Thomas
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FWIW,
It wasn't unusual for the police officers (and probably representatives of other other government agencies like the FBI and Secret Service) to review and correct their statements multiple times before submitting them. As Kenneth Croy told the Warren Commission in his testimony regarding his Report to Curry on his duties on the 24th:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/croy.htm
Mr. CROY. No; well, I will put it this way, that it took us 8 hours to get that up. That is how interested they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked with them for 8 hours?
Mr. CROY. On 2 different occasions. That day and the next day, for 4 hours each day. That is pretty interesting.Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which we have marked Exhibit 5052, which is a copy of a letter that you prepared for Chief Curry, dated November 26, 1963, was that prepared down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your business offices?
Mr. CROY. That was prepared at the Dallas Police Academy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. CROY. On Shorecrest back of the northwest substation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that prepared by hand?
Mr. CROY. Yes, it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you responsible for getting the typing done?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you turn that report over to?
Mr. CROY. Captain Solomon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then was it his responsibility to get the typing done?
Mr. CROY. I don't know. I just turned it in. What he did with it, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it eventually come back to you?
Mr. CROY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The typed copy never came back to you?
Mr. CROY. No.Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any question in your mind but that the statement that you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that you prepared in your own hand in the police department?
Mr. CROY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what day it was, the day you prepared that statement?
Mr. CROY. The following Tuesday night. I don't know what date it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Mr. Croy, why didn't you mention in this report, dated November 26, your seeing this man you believe to be Ruby?
Mr. CROY. Why didn't I mention that in there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CROY. Because at that time Captain Solomon told me that there would be another report made and I would have to go downtown to the city hall before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the city hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then when you prepared this other statement on December 1, who called you and how did you come to go before Notary Public A. L. Curtis?
Mr. CROY. He is a lieutenant. After I signed it, I took it there to be notarized by him.Mr. CROY. What it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it up. Then the next day I went back down there and they re-read it to me and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over again. And then I took it into Lieutenant Curtis and signed it and had it notarized.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they take notes as you talked with them?
Mr. CROY. No; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then I left and she typed it up, and I came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on.Steve Thomas
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I don't know why, but this picnic has always fascinated me.
Part of it goes to the question of whether Veciana could have seen LHO in Dallas in September if he was supposed to be in New Orleans.
Part of it goes to the Sylvia Odio story of meeting LHO in the hallway of her apartment house.
Part of it goes to whether or not LHO addressed a group of Cubans.
Part of it goes to SNFE/Alpha 66 and DRE recruiting efforts in Dallas in September.
Part of it may address Hall and Seymour running guns through Dallas.
Part of it may address the Whitter/Lawrence theft of guns from the Terrell National Guard Armory.
Part of it may address Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro/George Perrel attempts to buy guns from John Thomas Masen.
Part of it may address Nancy Perrin Rich and her testimony.
There just seemed to be a lot of Cuban exile activity in Dallas in the fall of 1963.
These are excerpts of an interview of Harold Weisberg with Colonel and Mrs. Robert Castorr.
Has anyone ever seen the film that these stills were taken from, or the pictures Weisberg showed to the Castorrs?
Mr, C: And let's not forget that he was at the White Rock picnic amongst the Cubans and ostensibly wasn't Oswald suppose to have been there at the picnic?
W: Do you remember when that picnic was?
Mrs. C: Well, it was about mid-September of '63.
Mr. C: Well I understand that Oswald was at the White Rock picnic with these Cubans. Wasn't there a picture that came out that somebody took that's somewhere in the files..
W: May I ask if that could have been a man who looked like Oswald? Mr. C: It could be... W: I think that's more likely.
Mr. C: I'm getting back to my belief and thinking that Father McCann was also there...
Mrs. C: He was invited to that picnic. That was mid-September of '63 and Bob was out of the country.
So this would put these men -- Paul and presumably Howard -- in Dallas at approximately that time in Sept. with another man whom they introduced to her as Leon Oswald. So you see, when we're talking about a man at the picnic who was thought to have been Oswald, it was quite consistent with Sylvia Odio's story because when she was shown the pictures of Oswald, although if you read her testimony carefully, she points out certain dissimilarities between the man she saw and the man, Oswald, in the pictures. Nonetheless it's consistent with Oswald and on balance, she said it looked like him.
W: You may not, but that's all right. What we have here are pictures collected of people we don't know too much about. These are some stills taken from the television films taken of the in White Rock Park. in the summer July 1963 I believe.
ITS Mrs. C: September, I believe.
Mr. W: Was that it._
Mrs. C: Now, I was not at that meeting. So far as this picnic was concerned, you see, I was going around to some of these people bringing food, bringing clothing and what have you, and I did not speak nor understand Spanish unfortunately, but I heard that there was going to be a picnic at White Rock Lake and the man by the name of Rodriquez was selling the tickets. And some reference was made to the fact that in some group of Cubans, someone said are you going to that picnic. "Well, no, the right people aren't going to be there"and I was never invited to that picnic so..
W: They were more or less the left wing group.
Mrs. C: Yes, now after the picnic was over, I heard from some source and I couldn't tell you where that they raised $7,000 at that picnic and that there were people there from Puerto Rico and from Venezuela who attended that picnic. pp. 6-7
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20215/215e.pdf
p. 187
25H371, CE 2390 and CD 1546 p. 188.
FBI interview of Felix Guillermo Othon Pacho by SA Wallace Heitman on September 8, 1964.
Othon was the DRE delegate in Dallas after Sarah Castillo. Othon told Heitman that Manuel Salvat had come to Dallas from Miami in September or October, 1963 and that a meeting of about thirty or forty Cubans and Americans had been held at a bank near White Rock Lake. The meeting had been organized by Mr. Dean Perkins, who was sympathetic to the Cuban cause.
Steve Thomas
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2 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:
I wonder how he could afford a ranch on a patrolman's money.
Ray,
Maybe the same way way the estate of Ray Hawkins got their money:
Lee Harvey Oswald handcuffs valued at $250,000
November 30, 2016
"The Dallas Police Department made its officers and detectives buy their own handcuffs, thus allowing Hawkins to retain his private property after the assassination."
The lot is estimated to bring in $250,000 ahead of the December 3 close date.
Steve Thomas
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13 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:
IMO the above quote is an accurate excerpt from the original Bookhout Report, before the fabricated Baker/Oswald second-floor encounter was inserted.
Sandy,
I'm just curious.
If the Baker/Truly/Oswald second-floor encounter didn't happen, why do you think was it inserted into the record?
What are the advantages, or implications? Didn't it give Oswald an alibi?
Steve Thomas
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2 hours ago, Lance Payette said:
As much as I poke fun at H&L, I do think that nailing down everything we possibly can about LHO should be the foundation of assassination research.
Concerning the writing, I mentioned on another thread that my wife found the Russian in the "Walker note" to be laugh-out-loud bad. "No way did anyone fluent in Russian write that!" she assured me. But then when she looked at some things LHO had supposedly written in Minsk, she said "Not too bad ... not perfect, but pretty good." Hmmm ... there is definitely a mystery to all this.
P.S. - For what it's worth, I have asked my wife to take a look at No. 1314 regarding the translation of "locksmith" and to ask her sister how she would explain LHO being in the "Experimental Shop" in 1962.
Lance,
I once read a long time ago, (I don't remember who) who said, "If Oswald truly was a patsy, any time spent on him is a waste of time".
I don't know what the answer is. *shrug*
I think I can be confident in saying that the CIA waiting a year to open a 201 file on Oswald is a bunch of malarky. They may not have had a 201 file, but they had some kind of file.
I wondered about the dating on Oswald's resignation letter (CE 1314) compared to the dating on the back of the back yard photo (DeMohrenschildt's copy?).
Let me know what your wife says about "Locksmith" and your sister-in-law says about the shop. I'm interested.
Steve Thomas
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10 hours ago, Lance Payette said:
I think 431 is the Russian version of 430, but my knowledge of Russian is about the equivalent of a two-year-old Russian baby's. I'll ask my wife to take a look at these. I would have thought LHO would have shifted to signing his name in Russian almost immediately. My wife and I were talking just before she left as to how names really don't translate very well from Russian characters into English. Lance becomes Lanz - there is just no way to communicate "Lance." My wife is having the opposite problem, trying to translate Russian birth and death certificates from the 1800's for an American friend who is doing genealogical research.
Looking at 427, I would say those are two different hands. I don't know how grammatically correct the Russian half is, but it certainly looks like someone who is very experienced in writing cursive Russian. Writing in cursive Russian is no small feat - the cursive letters are completely different from the printed ones. I can pronounce almost any printed Russian word, but cursive Russian might as well be in Chinese. If I were going to attempt to "write" in Russian, I would have to print.
On 1314, note how fumbling the upper half is compared to the lower half, as well as to 427; the lower half appears much more fluent (or fluid). I compared the "m" in the Russian word for my or me that appears in all three documents, and it appears that the Russian writing in 427 might be the same hand as the lower half of 1314. I suppose Marina might be a good candidate, and the "m"s in her letters on the Wronski site do seem similar (but the writing in 427 appears much more forceful).
I suppose LHO's background with the military would have made him a logical candidate for radio factory work, but it is odd that he would have been sent to a factory 400 miles from Moscow with a highly sensitive area - and some of the sensitive work did involve radar. If they really thought he was the nuisance they claimed, they could have sent him to a potato farm or grocery store.
Lanz, *smile*,
Thank you. I'm getting a little better with the cursive, but if the writing is a little sloppy, fugedda bout it. *smile*.
Birth and death certificates from the 1800's huh? That's impressive.
I agree with you that the Russian writing looks more "experienced", or "fluid". The application for employment on p. 427 was supposedly done in January. I don't think he met Marina until April was it?
I was struck yesterday about the similarity of Oswald disappearing for two weeks in 1962 (between October 19th and November 2nd) and then going to work at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall at the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis; and then him disappearing between November 15, 1959 and January 4, 1960, only to go to work at a sensitive radio factory.
Didn't a U-2 plane get shot down on both occasions?
Potato farm... *smile*
Steve Thomas
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10 hours ago, Lance Payette said:
The following site, which does include some interesting photos and discussion of LHO's work in Minsk (there are two pages), speculates that LHO might have been employed for a brief time in the sensitive area in 1960 to ferret out whether he showed any spy-like tendencies, then shifted to grunt-level work when he didn't show any such tendencies: http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/minsk3.htm
Lance,
PS: Thank you for tip on the web site you referenced above.
Like Peter Wronski, I am very suspicious of the six weeks Oswald went "missing" between mid November, 1959 and early January, 1960.
Steve Thomas
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10 hours ago, Lance Payette said:
My wife is back in Minsk for a month, so I don't have the benefit of her input, but:
The word you are showing as citizen (pronounced graz-da-neen) does mean "citizen" but is also kind of an all-purpose catch-all for any male. It doesn't necessarily mean "citizen" in the legal sense, any more than a police officer here who shouts "Stop, citizen!" really cares whether you are a citizen. "Comrade" is a running joke between my wife and I. She has no idea why all U.S. movies and TV shows put this word in the mouth of pretend-Russians, because there is no Russian word like it and she had never heard it before arriving in the U.S. The Russian word is товарищ (pronounced tu-var-ish). Apparently it carries a Bolshevik connotation and is not used as commonly since the fall of the USSR.
I've mentioned previously that my wife's sister worked in the sensitive (military) portion of the Minsk Radio Factory, where my wife visited her on numerous occasions. My wife couldn't get within 50 yards of the sensitive area, which did military work - she had to telephone her sister from the lobby and wait for her there. Employees of the sensitive area were not even allowed to leave the USSR on vacations.
The remainder of the facility was a standard radio and TV factory. "Regulator" was LHO's job classification, but his actual job was as a machinist (lathe operator). The Russian word for locksmith does appear in the short resignation document, but I'm not sure that is the complete and accurate translation since I can't read the word immediately after locksmith. This again may be referring to the job classification and may be the same as regulator.
I have a hard time believing LHO would have been allowed anywhere near the sensitive portion of the Minsk Radio Factory. The following site, which does include some interesting photos and discussion of LHO's work in Minsk (there are two pages), speculates that LHO might have been employed for a brief time in the sensitive area in 1960 to ferret out whether he showed any spy-like tendencies, then shifted to grunt-level work when he didn't show any such tendencies: http://www.russianbooks.org/oswald/minsk3.htm
But this does not explain why his 1962 resignation would still be referring to the "experimental shop." My guess would be that the experimental shop meant the R&D area of the radio and TV portion of the factory, not the sensitive experimental shop described at the above site. LHO's essay on the factory (quoted at the above site) shows no awareness of the sensitive work, which I find more believable than the notion he would have been allowed into an area that was grimly sensitive.
Note the two different handwriting, date formats and signatures on the dated portions of the 1962 resignation. They are very different. Perhaps "locksmith" was the term used by someone else who was helping LHO draft the resignation.
Lance,
Thank you for your help. I am struggling with the Russian documents. I just don't know enough.
Would you look at the Certificate on page 430 of CE 985
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=444&tab=page
are either p. 429 or 431 the Russian version of that Certificate?
It's interesting that in earlier versions of the Russian documents, say in early 1960 when he is applying for his first identity cards (around pages 413 and 414), Oswald signs his name in English. By the time of his resignation, he signs his name in Russian:
(22H) CE 1314 p. 486
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=516&tab=page
Would you also look at his application for employment autobiography on page 427?
Would you say that the English version and the Russian version were written by the same hand?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=441&tab=page
You talked about the sensitive work done at the factory. I thought at the time when I was reading his "Collective", it was interesting that he said that the factory employed 5,000 people, of which 2,000 were soldiers.
Again, thank you for your help.
Steve Thomas
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19 hours ago, David Josephs said:
Could any of it have to do with the translations?
Like the order of the name in Russia is different than USA...
or the word "citizen" being loosely translated...IDK...
You think, like the diary, these notes were done in a sitting to provide "documentation" to the Americans... and not over the time of his employment?
David,
I just checked.
The Russian word for Citizen is Гражданин
The Russian word for Oswald is Освальд
If you put them together, they are, Гражданин Освальд
If, you go to CE 985 page 434, this is his unsatisfactory job reference.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=448&tab=page
Scroll midway down to the beginning of the first full paragraph and that's what you'll see. Гражданин Освальд
"Citizen" is the correct translation.
Steve Thomas
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10 hours ago, David Josephs said:
Could any of it have to do with the translations?
Like the order of the name in Russia is different than USA...
or the word "citizen" being loosely translated...IDK...
You think, like the diary, these notes were done in a sitting to provide "documentation" to the Americans... and not over the time of his employment?
David,
About the word, "Citizen" being loosely translated,...
I don't think so.
On page 430 of CE 985, there is a Certificate dated July 15, 1961 that “Comrade”, Lee Harvey Oswald was employed as an assembler at the Minsk Radio Plant. The date January 1, 1960 is typed on the Certificate.
About the documents being manufactured after the event,...
I don't know, and I don't have any idea how you would go about finding that out.
Steve Thomas
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On 12/13/2017 at 3:34 PM, James DiEugenio said:
Since Baker was confused about this point all the way to September, and I don't think Truly mentioned it in his testimony, when was the first appearance of the Coke Oswald allegedly was drinking on the second floor?
Did it come from the Fritz notes?
Jim,
You have asked a very interesting question.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm
Mr. FRITZ. Let's see, I have it right here. Oswald was arrested at 1:40 and I think he was taken to the city hall about 2:15 and I started talking to him probably a little bit after that.
Mr. BALL. You will notice that Sims and Boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about 2:20.
Mr. FRITZ. That might be all right because I have 2:15 here but I think 2:15 may be 5 or 10 minutes too early.Mr. FRITZ. Yes; my desk is right here and I sit behind it right here and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and I had him sitting in a chair, right here.
Just about the time I started talking to him, I had just started to question him, I got a phone call from Mr. Shanklin, Gordon Shanklin, agent in charge of the FBI calling for Mr. Bookhout, and I asked Mr. Bookhout to go to pick up the extension.
So, I got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office and asked Mr. Bookhout to come in, the reason I asked both of them to come in and Mr. Bookhout is in my office most of every day and works with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with Mr. Hosty.
Mr. BALL. So Bookhout and Hosty came into your office?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.Hosty didn't get to police headquarters until about 3:15.
DPD Archives Box 15, Folder# 1, Item# 111, page 2
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box15.htm
“I invited Mr. Bookhout and Mr. Hosty in to help with the interview. Mr. Truly had told me that one of the police officers had stopped this man immediately after the shooting somewhere near the back stairway, so I asked Oswald where he was when the police officer stopped him. He said he was on the second floor drinking a coca cola....”
Frit's handwritten interrogation notes:
http://www.jfklancer.com/Fritzdocs.html
The notes begin at 3:15PM
Hosty and Bookhout are present.
“claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in”
What did Fritz and Oswald talk about in the one hour between 2:20 and 3:15 PM?
Did they talk at all?
Steve Thomas
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3 hours ago, David Josephs said:
And in such a strange assortment of exhibits....
So the Soviets put a non-citizen foreigner in the "Experimental" shop - whatever that is... as a locksmith in a Radio factory ???
David,
It gets weirder.
CE 985 p. 433
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=447&tab=page
is a character reference for LHO. Two times they refer to "Citizen" Oswald. Once as Harvey Lee Oswald, and once as Lee Harvey Oswald.
It says he was hired as a regulator in the experimental shop.
His employee workbook doesn't reflect any promotions or transfers in the time he worked there.
Steve Thomas
picnic at White Rock Lake
in JFK Assassination Debate
Posted
This just keeps getting better.
On May 4, 1964 in an interview in his home with SS Agent Ernest I. Aragon, Rogelio Cisneros told Aragon in Miami that he had gone to Dallas, by plane, alone to meet Sylvia Odio, whom he had never met before, in June, 1963, for the specific purpose of meeting Sylvia Odio who was supposed to introduce Cisneros to a Uruguayan named Juan Martin, who was interested in selling small arms to JURE.
He wanted to buy guns, and Martin wanted to sell them. Odio was going to serve as the middleman (middlewoman?).
Odio had moved to Dallas in March.
Cisneros had a second purpose in going to Dallas however. When he went to Sylvia's house, he was accompanied by Jorge Rodriguz Alvaredo.
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20Section%20215/215e.pdf page 183 of Heitman's report, p. 16 of the pdf file.
On September 4, 1964 Jorge Rodriguez Alvareda told Wallace Heitman that Rogelio Cisneros Diaz had come to Dallas in late May, or early June, 1963 for the purpose of organizing the Dallas Branch of JURE.
On May 28, 1964 a Report out of Dallas is drafted on various Cuban groups.
REPORT: JUNTA REVOLUCIONARIA CUBANA; SEGUNDO FRENTE DE ESCAMBRAY (OPERATION ALPHA 66); DIRECTORIO REVOLUCIONARIO ESTUDIANTIL; MOVIMIENTO REVOLUCIONARIO 30 DE NOVIEMBRE; FAIR PLAY FOR CUBA COMMITTEE
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=28726#relPageId=2&tab=page
Jorge Rodriguez Alvareda advised that the Dallas Chapter of JURE was established in late June and early July, 1963. Rodriguez Alvareda said that he was employed at the Curtis-Mathes plant and that he had been authorized on July 3, 1963 in a letter from Osorio Davila Santana, Secretary General of JURE in Miami to proceed with the organization of JURE unit in Dallas.
Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro was also employed at the Curtis-Mathes plant.
Father Walter J. McHann (Mary Ferrell's database spells it Machann)
CE 2943 p. 402.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1142#relPageId=438&tab=page
Letter from James Rowley of the Secret Service to J. Lee Rankin dated May 5, 1964. McHann interviewed by SS Inspector Kelly on April 30, 1964.
McHann was chaplain to the Cuban Catholic Committee of Dallas. They organized religious and social activities for the Cuban refugees to help them adjust. Did they organize the picnic?
McHann said he had been introduced to John Martin aka Juan Martin; and that one night, John Martin came to Sylvia's while he was there. McHann described John Martin as a Latin, but not a Cuban. Martin had a house in Dallas, but did not live there. He lived in a different city with his family. Sylvia seemed to know John Martin quite well.
Sylvia Odio moves to Dallas in March
Cisneros flies from Miami to Dallas in June to set up a gun buying deal with Johnny Martin using Sylvia as the middlewoman and to organize a JURE Chapter in Dallas with Jorge Rodriguez Alvaredo as its President.
Father McHann at some point is introduced to Johnny Martin at Syvlia's home.
Two months later, in September, a picnic is organized at White Rock Lake. Oswald is maybe seen there, and maybe not.
Did the Catholic Cuban Relief Committee, who arranged social activities for the Cubans, organize the picnic?
Was Father McHann there?
Was the Rodriguez who was selling tickets, Jorge Rodriguez, the President of the JURE Dallas Chapter?
That same month three men come to Sylvia's door claiming to be from JURE. She thinks Oswald was one of the three.
Steve Thomas