1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Steve.  

Jim,

 

I also ran across an FBI interview of Roy Truly done on 11/23.

During his interview, he said that Mrs. Reid had told him that LHO had had a coke in his hand.

I can dig it out if you need.

 

Steve Thomas

16 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Thanks Steve, anyone who has the 2010 edition of SWHT will find what I was able to dig up on both Souetre and Mertz beginning on page 366....I mention a couple of the points above as being reported by unverified and if I were rewriting it to day I'd probably just dump them unless someone has found something new because it appears they are just rumor.  Actually we know a good bit about Souetre's outreach to American intelligence as of 1963 and its not all that mysterious, its well documented.  What he was doing was trying to convince the CIA and any other intel group that would listen that the French government was thoroughly penetrated by communists and the US should break relations and support a coup against it - the basic OAS pitch. Mertz on the other hand was doing his drug thing but also occasionally assisting the French SDECE in countermoves against Souetre and the OAS. 

What we do know is that Souetre did come to the US and was in contact with the CIA but it was in New York City...not mysteriously with Hunt in Madrid. What is likely is that French intelligence was concerned that Souetre was traveling to the US and to Mexico as part of an OAS scheme to attack de Gaulle on a visit to Mexico.

The thing is we continue to discuss very old talking points like this as if they had bee somehow corroborated...perhaps they have but if so I surely would like to see it.

Larry,

 

Taking your points in reverse order:

• The thing is we continue to discuss very old talking points like this as if they had been somehow corroborated...perhaps they have but if so I surely would like to see it.

Amen.

 

• What he was doing was trying to convince the CIA and any other intel group that would listen that the French government was thoroughly penetrated by communists...

Lately, I've been trying to view that through the lens of the nuclear arms race. Regardless of the hyperbole we were fed about "The Missile Gap", the U.S. was far ahead of the Russians in terms of the number, and technical sophistication of its nuclear payload. The Russians were desperate for any info they could get and even though the U.S. was expanding its arsenal throughout western Europe, I think we were reluctant to share too much info with the French for fear it would be leaked to the Russians.

 

Tell me about New York City.

 

Steve Thomas

 

17 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Since Baker was confused about this point all the way to September, and I don't think Truly mentioned it in his testimony, when was the first appearance of the Coke Oswald allegedly was drinking on the second floor?

Did it come from the Fritz notes?

Jim,

 

Roy Truly testified to the WC on March 24, 1964.

Marrion Baker and Mrs. Reid (who worked in the TSBD) testified on March 25, 1964.

Baker testified first, and Reid followed him

Reid in (3H 270)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/reid.htm

 

"Mr. BELIN. All right. You went up through the stairs and then what did you do?
Mrs. REID. I went into the office.
Mr. BELIN. You went into your office?
Mrs. REID. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?
Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."
He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands..."

 

DPD Archives, Box 5, Folder# 2, Item# 51.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

Affidavit by Mrs. Robert Reid on November 23, 1963

"Lee mumbled something and walked on out of the office. I did not understand what he said, he had a coke in his hand."

 

Steve Thomas

40 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Since I can't seem to help myself -  I am familiar with what Dick wrote and gave a shot at trying to prove in much of it myself long ago and failed - ...could Chuck or Steve or Paul or  anyone else please provide the corroboration for any (all actually) of the bullet points Paul listed?

Larry,

 

So far, I haven't found corroboration for the bullet points listed.

• In March-April 1963, Souetre met with Howard Hunt (of Watergate and Bay of Pigs infamy) in Madrid.

I don't think it was Hunt that Souetre met with. I've never read anything from Souetre or Hunt that they met each other. I believe it was Guerin Serac who was with Souetre, but I don't know who it was on the CIA side. I suspect it was Irving Brown, but that's just a suspicion. Did Hunt ever write that he met with Souetre?

 

• In April-May 1963, Souetre met with Gen. Edwin Walker (who Oswald allegedly shot at) in Dallas.

I've never read anything from Souetre, or Walker that they met with each other.  I've never read anything from Souetre that he was ever in Dallas, TX.

 

• Souetre trains that summer with Alpha 66 and the 30th of November (both anti-Castro groups) in the New Orleans Mandeville region.

I've read that rumor, but have never ready anything from someone who said, "Yeah, I saw him there.", or, "Yeah, I trained under him and he he taught me XYZ".

 

My research may be lacking, but I've just never read any first person accounts.

Souetre has claimed that even though he had a U.S. passport, he never actually traveled to to the U.S. There is a suspicion that he met with some people in the Fontainbleau Hotel in Miami in April of 1963, but I need to do more research on that.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

In his Letter of Resignation to the Director of the Minsk Radio Factory dated May 18, 1962,

Lee Harvey Oswald signed his letter:

Lee H. Oswald, Locksmith of the Experimental Shop.

(22H) CE 1314 p. 486

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=516&tab=page

 

I never knew that about him.

 

Steve Thomas

 

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Joe,

My impression of what Steve wrote was that the car Craig saw could not have been Ruth Paine's car because the car he saw had a luggage rack, whereas Ruth's car did not have one.

Like you, I wonder about the car changing from a two-tone to a single-tone. Also, from blue to green. I can easily accept the latter happening due to fading, but not so sure the former.

 

Sandy,

 

I don't want to detract from this thread, but a while back I wrote a piece on what I thought was a possible lead for the rambler.

You can read it here if you like:

https://myjfksite.weebly.com/

Scroll down just a little ways.

I make the case for the car belonging to the House on Harlandale guys, and the driver as Manuel Rodriguez Orcarberro.

 

Steve Thomas

10 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

 

Is this the car ( according to Sheriff Roger Craig's account in his "Two Men In Dallas" interview ) that Dallas PD Captain Will Fritz was referring to in his asking Lee Harvey Oswald "What about the car?" in his interrogation of Oswald, where upon Oswald responded ( again according to Roger Craig's account )

... "that station wagon belongs to Ruth Paine. Don't try to drag her into this."?

 

Joe,

 

I don't think so.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/craig.htm

 

Mr. BELIN - Why would you think it was a Nash?
Mr. CRAIG - Because it had a built-in luggage rack on 'the top. And--uh--at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that type luggage rack.

Mr. BELIN - A Nash Rambler-is that what you're referring to?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know.

 

Steve Thomas

10 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

hi Steve

I believe WC Exhibit 427 served as Oswald's application at JCS.

Hi Jeff,

 

It's been a long time since I read Graef's WC testimony.

Wow! That's some job application process.

No phone, no social security number, no signature on the application, a PO Box as your permanent address.

Mr. GRAEF. Into this box here---at the time that I interviewed him, it was probably--then, I--after this card was written, he may have been employed here at our place, oh, perhaps a week or two before this card was brought in to him to sign.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. GRAEF. In other words, I think because of the busy way the department runs, sometimes days will elapse before we get around to getting one of these to him and getting his social security number and so forth. In other words, he came to work and some days may have elapsed from the time, for example, that we had the interviews, there may have been some days passed before he actually came to work. Now, at this time, when I took this information down on my notes, my personal notes of the interview, there was no phone number, as I recall.

 

Steve Thomas

There have been references on several threads about a cable sent on the evening of 11/22 from Fort Sam Houston to Strike Command, McDill AFB in Florida. In the cable, reference was made, to information obtained by Detective Don Stringfellow of the Dallas Police Department. I managed to locate a copy of the cable, which you can find here:

https://archive.org/details/nsia-ArmyIntelligenceJFK

3) In the Stringfellow cable referenced above, Harvey Lee Oswald was described as 5'10" tall, 165 lbs, with blue eyes

 

Report of John Fain (FBI Dallas) dated July 3, 1961    CE 980 p. 388

1 copy to ONI New Orleans

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=399&tab=page

On April 28, 1960 Mrs. Marguerite Oswald provided the following physical description of Lee Harvey Oswald:

5'10" tall, 165 lbs blue eyes.

 

I'm wondering now if that's where the physical description came from - Marguerite back in 1960.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I studied Russian in high school. All I remember is "privyet tavalish" and "babushka." ("Greetings comrade" and "grandmother.")

I recall some of the alphabet but only because, as an engineer, I used a lot of the Greek alphabet for math and physics. And I now realize -- from your word -- that the Russian alphabet borrows from the Greek. I can't read the whole word, but the first half looks like "privyet" (greetings).

 

Sandy,

 

I don't want to derail the topic of this thread, but I have been struck by how the Cyrillic languages resemble each other and how the Romance languages resemble each other.

I wonder when they split and why.

 

Steve Thomas

7 hours ago, Zach Jendro said:

I would like to discuss a research project I have been working on for the past couple of years concerning Lee Oswald’s possessions and what they mean.

8. Oswald worked at Jaggars with someone else’s Social Security Number. This was the only instance of him working with an incorrect SSN and it just so happens that it was at a facility which dealt with classified military materials. Are we truly to believe that Oswald was allowed to work at JCS, a military contractor while the Cuban Missile Crisis was going on, without any kind of a background check AND with an incorrect SSN?

I have never posted here before. I don’t believe this is breaking any of the rules as I am not selling anything. If this is improper, I apologize, but I really would just like this material to be examined because I think there are some new leads here. The link to the website is below. Thank you very much for your consideration.

 

https://debunked.wordpress.com/the-possessions-of-lee-harvey-oswald/

Zach,

 

You've asked a lot of probing intelligent questions.

Might I suggest, if you haven't done so, to look a the City of Dallas JFK Collection here:

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/index.html

Check the Index under Property - there's a lot to wade through. I can't say for certainty that everything in there made its way into the Warren Commission's list of Exhibits. They probably did, but I've never really sat them down side by side to compare them.

(One set is is in Box 7, Folder# 10, Item# 59. These were taken out of the Irving address I think)

 

I asked the question about Oswald's social security number a couple of years ago here:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/5255-lhos-ss-number/

 

In Box 6, Folder# 7, Item# 23 p.1

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box6.htm

There is a Louisiana Interstate Request for Reconsideration of Monetary Determination. (I think LHO was requesting his unemployment compensation from Jaggers-Chiles-Stovall be reconsidered).

The SSN number for LHO is given as 433-54-3937.

but here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=58995&search=Jaggars#relPageId=116&tab=page

his SS# is listed as: 433-56-3739

 

WC Exhibit 427 (an Employee ID questionnaire) here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=182&tab=page

gives Oswald's SS# as 433-54-3937

 

I wonder who made the mistake on his payroll record. I know Oswald seemed to transpose numbers a lot. I don't think we have an actual application for the job at JCS - I could be wrong.

And maybe at that time, JCS didn't make copies of a person's SS card when they applied for a job. I wonder too why the Social Security Administration didn't catch that when they started withholding Social Security from his wages.

 

Steve Thomas

 

6 hours ago, Brian Benson said:

I think it is a simple title abbreviation, Here it is used in context.

  https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v06/d40  

"COS and EXO will spend night in Station, with a backup commo command post in another area of the city. "

• COS, Chief of Staff
• DCI, Director of Central Intelligence
• DCM, Deputy Chief of Mission
• EXO, Executive Officer

Brian,

 

He, or she, seems to be the "keeper of the files" in some way.

See page 3 of this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6926&search=EXO#relPageId=3&tab=page

"seven file folders on the Oswald case which had been kept by CI/R&A in the former SIG vault"

 

Steve Thomas

15 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

 Watching a Russian movie or listening to a conversation when we are in Belarus, however, I can follow pretty much nothing.  It all just happens too fast. 

 

Lance,

 

Приветствую.

 

I have studied Russian too somewhat.

I know how hard it is.

 

Steve Thomas

4 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32328296.pdf

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32328295.pdf

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32328293.pdf

 

Bart,

 

These guys... *sigh*

*smile*

 

From: "A Possible French Connection"

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/S Disk/Souetre et al, Published/Item 02.pdf

15 hours ago, Paz Marverde said:

I tried all my best to translate this very important Metta's article. I know my translation can be improved. Why I'm posting it here is obvious

Pat,

 

Translating is very hard. You did a good job.

 

Steve Thomas

51 minutes ago, Brian Benson said:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10052-10198.pdf 

  On a Routing Sheet, there is a listing of Mr Russ Holmes,  O/CI/EXO

Brian,

 

Thank you. Just on a hunch, I ran EXO through the Mary Ferrell Foundation web site.

There's about 600 document references to EXO, including these two:

SIGNIFICANT DETAILS REGARDING VISIT BY SENATE COMMITTEE REPRESENTATIVES WORKING ON THE OSWALD CASE

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6926&relPageId=7&search=EXO

 

LETTER TO PATRICK CARPENTIER FROM G. ROBERT BLAKEY

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=50776&relPageId=2&search=EXO

 

The first one tells me that EXO is a person.

 

Steve Thomas

26 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

So, to your instincts, maybe its the Middle East (Egypt, Israel) and certain nuclear proliferation interests. Perhaps the joint interest (for both the US and Russia) at the time was China.

Gene 

Gene,

 

You've given me much to mull over.

 

Might I suggest that it wasn't the Middle East, but Central Asia:

 

1)

Peter Dale Scott COPA Conference 11/24/2010

http://archive.politicalassassinations.net/2010/11/peter-dale-scott-the-jfk-assassination-as-an-engineered-provocation-deception-plot/

 

“(Jack) Crichton, an oil engineer and corporation executive, also doubled as a member of the Dallas overworld. Although his 488th intelligence unit consisted almost 50 percent of Dallas policemen, Crichton also used it as a venue in the late 1950s to conduct “a study of Soviet oil fields;” and in the 1990s Crichton would himself explore the oil and gas reserves in the former Soviet Union. Also interested in Soviet oil reserves at this time were Ilya Mamantov’s employers and personal friends, the wealthy Pew family in Dallas who were owners of Sunoco. By 2009 the second largest source of crude for Sunoco (after Western Africa) was Central Asia, supplying 86,000 barrels of crude a day.”

2)

James Corbett

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-298-gladio-b-and-the-battle-for-eurasia/

"In 1904 the Geographical Journal published an article that articulated the reason that these great powers were engaged in the struggle for this piece of the globe.

The article was called “The Geographical Pivot of History” and was written by Sir Halford John Mackinder PC, the Director of the London School of Economics...

The Geographical Pivot of History” is the document that is often said to be the founding document of geopolitics and constitutes the first formulation of what would come to be called the “Heartland Theory.”

“Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;

Who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island;

Who rules the World-Island commands the World.”

Looking at the map of what Mackinder had in mind for the Heartland it’s apparent that the “heart” of this Heartland is indeed the Central Asia-Caucasus region.”

 

3)

https://theintercept.com/2017/07/22/donald-trump-and-the-coming-fall-of-american-empire/

In the Shadows of the American Century: The Rise and Decline of US Global Power Paperback– September 15, 2017

 

“One of the key things that I think very few people understand, after World War II, the United States became the first world power, the first empire in a 1000 years to control both ends of the vast Eurasian continent. Now Eurasia, that enormous landmass, is the epicenter of world power. It’s got the resources, the people, the civilizations that—you’ve got to control that to control the world. And the United States, through the NATO alliance in Western Europe and a string of alliances along the Pacific littoral with Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and Australia, controlled the axial ends of the Eurasian landmass.”

By the end of the Cold War we have about 800 overseas military bases.

Most of those were arrayed around the Eurasian landmass.”

 

Just as an aside, General Challe, in his defense of the Genral's Putsch in April, 1961 said that he was attempting to thwart the influx of Chinese communists - not Russian in North Africa.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Who sent LHO to Minsk, and why?

Oswald's “Historic Diary:

Warren Commission Exhibit 24 Vol 16, Pg 94-105

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm

Nov 17 - Dec. 30 I have bought myself two self-teaching Russian Language Books. I force myself to study 8 hours a day. I sit in my room and read and memorize words. All meals I take in my room. Rima arranged that. It is very cold on the streets, so I rarely go outside at all. For this month and a-half, I see no one, speak to no-one, except every now and then Rima, who calls the ministry about me. Have they forgotten?, During December I paid no money to the hotel, but Rima told Hotel I was expecting a lot of money from USA. I have $28. left. This month I was called to the passport office and met 3 new officials who asked me the same questions I answered a month before. They appear not to know me at all.

 

Jan 4. I am called to passport office and finally given a Soviet document, not the soviet citizenship as I so wanted, only a Residence document, not even for foreigners but a paper called, "for those without citizenship." Still I am happy. The official says they are sending me to the city of "Minsk."

 

There is an application dated January 11, 1960 for a job as a regulator in the Minsk Plant, a job Harvey Lee Oswald started on January 13th, but there is no application for a job as an Assembler, a job which shows Lee Harvey Oswald as starting on January 1st.

He wasn't issued an identity card which allowed him to live and work in the U.S.S.R. as a "stateless person without citizenship", until January 4th and he signed a receipt for it on January 5th.

How could he have gotten a job without an identity card? He didn't apply for it, he was assigned to it.

For a month and a half, Oswald has dropped out of sight. There's no record of him, and suddenly he is being sent to a place 420 miles away smack in the middle of nowhere.

LHO was sent to Minsk and put in place.

 

Why?

 

Steve Thomas

 

41 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

 So, right out of a John le Carré or Ludlum novel, perhaps this was a joint US-Soviet ploy, with Angleton and others playing games that we cannot decipher easily.  Certainly he was enigmatic, and suspicious of not only all around him ... but suspect to all who knew him.  And perhaps Angleton is not necessarily on our side (the good guys, the Americans) and his true loyalties are to quite another set of powers and players.  And what was being run here was not an American project.  Truth becomes stranger than fiction.

Gene

Gene,

“Oswald, Marine Corps Intelligence and the Assault on the State Department.” by Peter Dale Scott

Fredonia Conference, July, 1990.

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

As published as Folsom Exhibit No. 1 (19 WH 656-768), this personnel file (Marine Corps) contains only unclassified documents and information. There are no overt references to Marine G-2, and only one passing reference to the existence of confidential intelligence records on Oswald in the Department of the Navy. This reference is in a letter of 29 July 1960, recommending Oswald's discharge from the Marines. The letter mentions two confidential reports from the Eighth (New Orleans) and Ninth (Chicago) Naval District Intelligence Offices, which it cites as follows:

DIO, 9th ND confidential report serial 02049-E of 8 Jun 60

DIO, 9th ND confidential report serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60.^6.

 

Years later, replying affirmatively to a request for these DIO reports from researcher Paul Hoch, the Naval Investigative Service (successor to ONI) supplied two records. These established a fact not available from the rest of the personnel file: that Marine G-2 (in regional offices as well as at Marine HQ) received documentary information from this ONI District Office concerning Oswald.^7.

 

In addition at least one of these G-2 records listed Oswald by a slightly different name. This alternative name, which eventually was used by at least four different military intelligence sources, was "Harvey Lee Oswald."⁸

 

This "Harvey Lee Oswald" reference is no accidental anomaly, but part of an organized pattern, widely dispersed, that suggests an official intelligence deception (and possible dual filing system). Serial 02296-E of 27 Jun 60 is the earliest Harvey Lee Oswald reference we now possess of over two dozen, from the files of ONI, FBI, CIA, Army Intelligence, the Secret Service, the Mexican Secret Police (DFS), and the Dallas Police.⁹

^{7 .}In this paper I am deeply indebted to the archival research and analysis of Paul Hoch, as well as to additional research by Larry Haapanen and Mark Allen.

^8. The four sources using "Harvey Lee Oswald" are: DIO, 9th Naval District, DIO, 8th Naval District, ONI (NAVCINTSUPPCEN.3) and Army 112th Military Intelligence Group (see Peter Dale Scott,

Deep Politics Two. 144). In response to the request for serial 02049-E. the NIS supplied a record with a serial that was contiguous but slightly different: "DIO. 9th ND confidential report serial 02048-E of 8 Jun 60." The second document, accurately supplied, carried a title different from the first: "Subj: OSWALD, Harvey Lee." We are left to wonder whether serial 02049-E of 8 Jun 60 concerned Harvey Lee Oswald as well.

^{9 .} For a discussion and incomplete list, see Peter Dale Scott, Deep Politics Two, 80, 85-89, 118-19, 142-49.

 

Now; I've been able to trace this reference as far back as January, 1960 - which pre-dates JFK and the election in November - back to the Eisenhower days.

What was going on in the world stage that would necessitate, or facilitate this "joint U.S./Soviet ploy"?

What was the end game?

And, I'm not so sure it was an Angleton game being played. I am thinking more military than civilian.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

9 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Lee Harvey Oswald and the Linguistic Problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltNRhSnJ2C4

 

 Among other points she raises, LHO was able to converse in Russian like a person from a neighboring country. Maria thought he was from Belarus or perhaps Latvia.

I don't know how you would reconcile this.

The doctor's report from October 23, 1959 following Oswald's "suicide attempt" on October 21st:

"The patient does not speak Russian. One could judge only by his gestures and facial expression that he had no complaints.... According to his statement in the Admission Ward - with the aid of an interpreter..."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=478&tab=page

 

How you go from that to conversing like a native in a year and a half is...  (problematic?)

 

Steve Thomas

This just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

 

Documents submitted by Dobrynin to the State Department on May 5, 1964:

CE 985 pp. 404+

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=418&tab=page

There is an application for an identity card, (good for one year) which was granted on January 4, 1960, and again on the 4th in 1961, and 1962, but no application for citizenship, and no paperwork or correspondence from the Soviet Government denying such an application. So who the hell's application for citizenship was denied?

 

There's an application for a job as a regulator in the Minsk Plant dated January 11, 1960, (for which Citizen Harvey Lee Oswald was hired on the 13th), but no application for Lee Harvey Oswald who, a Certificate says, was employed as an assembler as of January 1st) (p. 430).; which means he was employed at the factory before he received his Identity Card.

 

PS: In his job application, Oswald wrote that his parents were dead, and he had no brothers or sisters.

 

A real head scratcher.

 

Steve Thomas

 

2 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Bizarre. I presume this wouldn’t be proof of the Harvey and Lee theory, but does suggest some kind of Oswald project at work. It’s absolutely astonishing how every bit of detail on Oswald’s life and travels ends up being confusing. The constant alterations of his name is but one example. How can beaurocratic errors explain this? 

Paul,

 

I've been approaching this as if Harvey Lee Oswald was a real person.

That may not strictly be the case however. As I said to David Joseph, I think the Harvey Lee Oswald persona was created long before we knew it to be, but by who or why or how, I don't know. And, it, or may not, be connected to John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee. I think these are two separate issues.

I think this persona, or dossier was created and shared across all spectrums of the intelligence community. You have it showing up in FBI files, CIA, Secret Service, Army and Navy Intelligence, Dallas Police Criminal Intelligence. It would explain a lot, like Revill's list of TSBD employees.

It would explain the U.S. angle, but not the Soviet one. That one's got me puzzled.

(One crazy theory would be to have an element or elements of the U.S. intelligence community working with elements of the Russian intelligence community for some unknown reason).

 

Steve Thomas

 

Warren Commission Document 498 - SS Rowley Memorandum of 13 Mar 1964 Forwarding Reports

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10898&search="Harvey_Lee+Oswald"#relPageId=37&tab=page

pp. 37-38.

The Report is titled, Harvey Lee Oswald.

SS Protective Research Report by Kenneth J. Weisman of an interview with Billy Joe Lord, who traveled to Europe with Oswald aboard the SS Marion Lykes. Lord constantly refers to “Harvey Lee Oswald” whom he found to be “unfriendly, standoffish, and that the two of them “didn't hit off”. (p. 38.)

The Report was written by Weisman on February 28, 1964 and approved by a Jose(?) (Benavides?)(sic?) on March 2, 1964.

You might say that Harvey Lee Oswald was a simple transposition, but you'd have to believe that a trained investigator made the same mistake seven times in the same document.

 

This wasn't a mistake, Weisman was reading off a script of some kind.

 

Steve Thomas

Did Lee Harvey Oswald apply for Soviet Citizenship when he went to Russia in 1959?

 

That should be an easy enough question to answer right? Turns out, it isn't.

 

He said he did.

 

Oswald's “Historic Diary:

Warren Commission Exhibit 24 Vol 16, Pg 94-105

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm

 

Oct 16. (1959) Arrive from Helsinki by train;... Meet my Intourist guide Rima Sherikova. I explain to her I wish to apply for Russian citizenship. She is flabbergasted, but agrees to help. She checks with her boss, main office Intour, then helps me address a letter to Supreme Soviet asking for citizenship...

Jan 4. (1960) I am called to passport office and finally given a Soviet document, not the soviet citizenship as I so wanted, only a Residence document, not even for foreigners but a paper called, "for those without citizenship."

 

Current Section: CE 950 - Report of the Department of State on Lee Harvey Oswald, submitted to the Commission in January 1964. p. 287

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=301&tab=page

 

Memorandum

Lee Harvey Oswald

Expatriation

 

“On October 31, 1959, Oswald appeared at the American Embassy in Moscow, handed over his United States passport to a consular officer, Mr. Richard E. Snyder, and stated to the officer that he wished to renounce his United States citizenship and that he had applied for Soviet Citizenship.”

 

Oswald's signed, but undated statement that he gave to Snyder read in part, (p. 288)

“I have entered the Soviet Union for the express purpose of applying for citizenship in the Soviet Union, through the means of naturalization. My request for citizenship is now pending before the Supreme Soviet of the U.S.S.R.”.

 

Okay, so far, so good; but, a year and a half later,...

 

On July 8, 1961, Lee Harvey appeared at the American Embassy in connection with his desire to return to the United States with his wife. In connection with that visit, he denied that he had ever applied for Soviet citizenship.

Current Section: CE 977 - Foreign Service dispatch from the American Embassy in Moscow to the Department of State, dated July 11, 1961.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=392&tab=page

p. 378

“He exhibited Soviet internal “stateless” passport... No. 311479 issued by the Moscow City Government on January 14, 1960, which is prima facie evidence that he is regarded by the Soviet authorities as not possessing Soviet citizenship.”

“Oswald stated that despite the wording of the statement which he handed to the Embassy on October 31, 1959 (Embassy dispatch 234, November 2, 1959), he never in fact actually applied for Soviet citizenship.”

 

Well, he either did apply, or he didn't.

 

Current Section: CE 950 - Report of the Department of State on Lee Harvey Oswald, submitted to the Commission in January 1964.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=307&tab=page

p. 293

“In 1961, he showed a United States consular officer a document issued by the Moscow City Government on January 14, 1960 which indicated that he never was declared a Soviet citizen.”*

*“After the assassination of President Kennedy, an official of the Soviet Ministry of Foreign Affairs stated to an officer of the American Embassy in Moscow that Soviet authorities had considered Oswald's application for Soviet citizenship, but had decided not to approve it because Oswald seemed unstable.”

 

PS: January 14, 1960 is the day after "Citizen" Harvey Lee Oswald was hired as a regulator in the Minsk TV and Radio Plant.

See also letter from Walter J. Stoessel, Jr. of the Embassy in Moscow to the Director's Office of Soviet Affairs of the United States Department of State. He talks of meeting After he talks about meeting Kudryavtsev of the American Section of the MFA in the airport, who told him that, “Oswald had applied for Soviet citizenship but that ,after considering the application, the Soviet authorities had decided not to approve this application since Oswald seemed to be so unstable.”

LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&search=Dobrynin_December+11%2C+1963#relPageId=109&tab=page

p. 109.

And there's this:

Undated State Department Memo marked Confidential

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=392&tab=page

p. 355.

“For Embassy's Information Only; If Oswald insists on renouncing US citizenship, Section 1999 Revised Statutes precludes Embassy withholding right to do so regardless status his application pending Soviet Government and final action taken Petrulli case.”

Oswald's “Historic Diary:

Warren Commission Exhibit 24 Vol 16, Pg 94-105

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm

 

Jan 4. (1961) One year after I received the residence document I am called in to the passport office and asked if I want citizenship (Russian). I say no simply extend my residential passport to agree and my document is extended until Jan 4, 1962.

 

A letter from Anatoly Dobrynin to the U.S. State Department concerning Harvey Lee Oswald's request for Soviet citizenship is dated December 11, 1963.

LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

 

Included in CE 985 is a Letter from the Department of State to the Commission, dated May 18, 1964, with attached documents. It says that 985 is a translated copy of a note submitted by Dobrynin on May 5, 1964.

 

It says that Harvey Lee Oswald's request for USSR Citizenship was denied. It doesn't say when he applied for that citizenship, but the character reference memo from the Minsk Radio factory in CE 985, p. 433 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135&relPageId=447&search=%22Harvey_Lee%20Oswald%22 is dated December 11, 1961 and refers to “Citizen” Harvey Lee Oswald.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&relPageId=111&search=Dobrynin_December%2011,%201963

p. 111.

In that letter, Dobrynin lays out why the Soviet Government rejected the citizenship application of Harvey Lee Oswald.

 

If the Soviets denied Oswald's application for citizenship, then who was the “Citizen” who was hired at the Minsk TV and Radio plant on January 13, 1960?

Well, there's one way to clear this up, let's take a look at Oswald's application and see what it says.

Ummm.... You can't. It's missing.

LETTER FORWARDING DOCUMENTS TO CIA WHICH WERE AGREED UPON AT CONFERENCE HELD MARCH 12TH

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=7986&search=Dobrynin_December+11%2C+1963#relPageId=109&tab=page

p. 109.

Letter from Walter J. Stoessel, Jr. of the Embassy in Moscow to the Director's Office of Soviet Affairs of the United States Department of State. After he talks of meeting Kudryavtsev in the airport, who told him that, “Oswald had applied for Soviet citizenship but that ,after considering the application, the Soviet authorities had decided not to approve this application since Oswald seemed to be so unstable.”

 

“I found this reference to the Soviet handling of his application for citizenship of interest, since I have not found any record of this aspect in our files.”

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

2 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

THIS IS LSP BR GA PLS

9248 TWX 214-899-8553 1712 11-29-63

LSG BR

 

The 214 area code is the Dallas area, the 899 exchange is Grand Prairie.

Baton Rouge is a good guess for BR, I think.

 

Steve Thomas