8 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Steve, I just read the entire Raigorodsky testimony...deposition?

A lot of interesting stuff.

I have to assume that in his regular visits to Houston that DeM had to have interacted with oil man G.H.W. Bush. Weren't there a lot of dots connecting George and Herman Brown to Bush?

Joe,

 

Think Halliburton.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KBR_(company)

KBR, Inc. (formerly Kellogg Brown & Root) is an American engineering, procurement, and construction company, formerly a subsidiary of Halliburton. After Halliburton acquired Dresser Industries in 1998, Dresser's engineering subsidiary, The M. W. Kellogg Co., was merged with Halliburton's construction subsidiary, Brown & Root, to form Kellogg Brown & Root. KBR and its predecessors have received many contracts with the U.S. military including during World War II, the Vietnam War, and the Iraq War.

 

If I read this right, they own the patent on fracking.

 

I don't remember who right now, but somebody in the WC transcripts was talking about all the mysterious trips George DeM was making to Houston and how well he knew George and Herman Brown.

 

Raigorodsky is also mentioned in the Torbitt Document.

 

A very interesting book came out last year (2017) called, The Three Barons. by James Lateer. I haven't read it yet, but he seems to cover a lot of ground. He names Charles Willoughby, former head of Intelligence for Douglas MacArthur as one of the key planners of JFK's assassination.

https://books.google.com/books?id=jsRADwAAQBAJ&pg=PT272&lpg=PT272&dq="Paul+RAIGORODSKY"&source=bl&ots=1FQbiEuA6L&sig=trpUxGbof-yFpRFojivfZSsiNiQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI1aSE3_fYAhXE0FMKHct2Avk4ChDoAQg2MAU#v=onepage&q="Paul RAIGORODSKY"&f=false

 

Steve Thomas

From James Hosty:

"I might add that it is the practice of the FBI to interview immigrants from behind the Iron Curtain on a selective basis, and she was so selected to be one of these persons to be interviewed."

 

I have never been fully satisfied with this seemingly off-the cuff and innocuous answer.

On what basis was she "selected"? What were the criteria?

 

The emphasis early on was Marina, not Lee.

 

The WC testimony of Paul Raigorodsky is very interesting reading.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/raigorod.htm

 

It can be a little boring, but if you read it, and read it again, and read it again, you begin to get a feeling for some of the undercurrents at play, e.g. the hostility and suspicion between the Russians and Ukrainians, for example (which we still see in play today); or the ultra-right, anti-communist Eastern Greek Orthodox Church of George Bouhe vs. the more liberal St. Seraphim.

When the Oswalds came to Ft. Worth, they were taken in by the more Orthodox group, but when Marina went to have June christened, she had it done at St. Seraphim's:

Mr. JENNER. And that caused what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. That caused them to think and to know, as they understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life.
Mr. JENNER. She did what?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. She did it at the peril of her life----
Mr. JENNER. You mean they objected?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Because he told her she cannot do that, she had to sneak out with that child to be christened...

The hard liners saw the other Church as being sort of commie pinkos that might have all kinds of people : " Serbians, Sicilians, or Lebanese..."

 

I can't really what this all means, except to say, look at Marina first before you look at Lee to see where peoples' suspicions lay.

 

PS: Just as an aside, and totally off-topic, when Marina first met Lee, wasn't she supposed to have thought he came from the Baltics or something?

They have a distinct accent that we Americans might not pick up on.

Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Well, from what I understand, George De Mohrenschildt comes from what we call by-the-Baltic Germans.
Mr. JENNER. What is--by-the-Baltic Germans?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. The by-the-Baltic Germans are Germans that lived by the Baltic Sea and they were Russians or rather, Russiafied Germans.

Mr. JENNER. Does he speak Russian?
Mr. RAIGORODSKY. Oh, yes; he speaks Russian quite well with a by-the-Baltic German accent.

 

Steve Thomas

I just read through the only mention of Benavides in the DPD Archives. It's a Report by James Leavelle.
DPD Archives Box 16, Folder# 12, Item# 6.
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It's dated the 22nd, and it had to have been written up after 6:30PM, because he mentions the 6:30 lineup.
Leavelle wrote, "Another witness who saw the officer laying in the street, but did not see the suspect was a Domingo Benavides..."
Leavelle wrote that Benavides found two shells and turned them over to Poe, who in turn, turned them over to Pete Barnes, who "dusted the car for prints".
Why didn't Barnes dust the shells for prints right then and there while he had his fingerprint dusting kit out?

Benavides told the WC that he told the officers who came to his house at 4:00 PM what he had seen.

Someone is lying through their teeth.

Steve Thomas

11 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Let’s not forget what the Washington Post did to help destroy the late Gary Webb, the courageous reporter whose Dark Alliance series first brought to public attention the depth and breadth of the CIA Contra-Cocaine scandal. 

Jim.

 

I used to live relatively close to Mena in those days. It was a scary time in some ways. It was common knowledge that that were places in the Ouachita Mountains that you just didn't go.

 

Steve Thomas

You gotta love these Internet Forum thingys.

Thomas Graves posts a response to a thread in 2011.

Rich Pope posts a response to the thread in 2018.

Others follow suit, and the conversation picks up right where it left off.

It's kind of amazing really.

Steve Thomas

 

Were the spent shells from the revolver ever tested for fingerprints? I just don't remember.

The reason I ask is that Benavides told the WC that he had seen the shooter take 2 shells out of the gun and throw them.

He also told the the WC that he (Benavides) had picked one up and then dropped it back down in the grass.

When he gave the shells to Poe, why didn't Poe ask him where he got them?

Mr. BELIN - When the officers came out there, did you tell them what you had seen?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No, sir.
Mr. BELIN - What did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I left right after. I give the shells to the officer. I turned around and went back and we returned to work.

Poe never asked, "Where did you get these"? and "How did they get there?"

 

Later that evening, around 4:00 PM, two officers came to see him....

"I was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if I'd seen him, and I told him yes, and told them what I had seen..."

After knowing that Benavides had seen the suspect take two empty shells and throw them,  did they fingerprint the shells? Wouldn't that have established for sure that Oswald was there? Did they fingerprint Benavides?

Apparently they didn't fingerprint him.

Mr. BELIN - Did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; they didn't.

Which means that he wasn't taken down to the station to be fingerprinted either as a means of eliminating him as a suspect.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Gerald Hill, the luckiest man alive.

 

Gerald Hill went looking for a 5'8”, 160 lb guy with bushy brown hair, and by gum, durned if he didn't find one.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

Mr. HILL. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the 400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.

 

This call went out at 1:16

 

Mr. Hill. And prior, on our way to the location from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible suspect in the assassination.
With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8" 160 pounds,... and sort of bushy brown hair.

 

The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds,... and brown bushy hair."

 

1:19

Dispatcher. Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location. No physical description.

 

1:22

85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker). We have a description on this suspect over here on Jefferson. Last seen about 300 block of East Jefferson. He's a white male, about thirty, five eight, (siren) black hair, slender,

 

1:24

Dispatcher. Wanted for investigation for assault to murder on a police officer: A white male; approximately thirty; about five foot eight; slender build; has black hair;

 

1:26

91. What was the description...?

Dispatcher. White male, thirty, five feet eight, black hair, slender build,

 

1:33

Unknown. . . clothing description on that suspect? (Siren)

Dispatcher. White male, thirty, height five foot eight, very slender build, black hair

 

1:34

221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers). Might can give you some additional information. I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected...

 

 

'Course it's a shame that Hill couldn't share his stroke of luck with his eyewitness, since he sort of got away.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

1:26

550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill). I'm at Twelfth and Beckley now. Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. ...at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32 p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531.

Was that you?
Mr. HILL. That was Owens.
Mr. BELIN. Were you calling in at all?
Mr. HILL. No. That is Bud Owens.
Mr. BELIN. You had left Owens' car at this time?
Mr. HILL. I left Owens' car and had 105 (Poe's) car at this time.

 

1:34

221 (Patrolman H.W. Summers). Might can give you some additional information. I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected...And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand.

 

550/2 (Gerald Hill). The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol.

 

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

Mr. BELIN. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill.

 

Mr. Hill. ...The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair.”

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description?
Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name.

Why doesn't Poe say anything about receiving this witness from Hill either in his after-action report, or in his WC testimony?

 

Why are Summers and Hill the only two police officers to indicate that the suspect was armed with an automatic rather than a revolver?

 

Why are Summers and Hill the only two police officers who describe the suspect as being in the neighborhood of 5'10” inches or so and around 165 lbs?

In his after-action report, Poe wrote that it was Helen Markham who told him that the suspect was around 5'10", but no weight was given.

DPD Archives Box 7, Folder# 2, Item# 36

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box7.htm

 

Who were the eyewitnesses that Summers and Hill were relying on for information?

 

Why did these two eyewitnesses disappear from the record?

 

Steve Thomas

13 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill: "We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes3.htm

 

1:19

Dispatcher. Suspect running west on Jefferson from the location. No physical description.

Channel 2. ...involving a police officer at 400 East Tenth. Suspect last seen running

 

91, ((Ptm. W.D. Mentzel and Ptm. J.W. Courson) have a signal 19 west on Jefferson. No description at this time. (Pause) Suspect just passed 401 E Jefferson.

 

1:22

85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker). We have a description on this suspect over here on Jefferson. Last seen about 300 block of East Jefferson. He's a white male, about thirty, five eight, (siren) black hair, slender,

 

1:24

Dispatcher. Wanted for investigation for assault to murder on a police officer: A white male; approximately thirty; about five foot eight; slender build; has black hair;

 

1:26

91. What was the description...?

Dispatcher. White male, thirty, five feet eight, black hair, slender build,

 

550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill). I'm at Twelfth and Beckley now. Have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets him.

Dispatcher. Have you been to the scene?

550/2 The officer was already gone when I got there. He was driving car number 10.

 

 

1:28

On Channel 2.

4 (Deputy Chief of Police N.T. Fisher). Is there any indication that it has any connection with this other shooting?

Dispatcher. Well, the descriptions on the suspect are similar and it is possible.

 

1:33

Unknown. . . clothing description on that suspect? (Siren)

Dispatcher. White male, thirty, height five foot eight, very slender build, black hair

 

1:34

221 (Ptm. H.W. Summers). Might can give you some additional information. I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected...And he was apparently armed with a 32 dark-finish automatic pistol which he had in his right hand.

This man can positively identify him if they need him.

221. I've got two witnesses; one that talked with the officer and one that observed the man.

550/2 The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol.

19 (Sgt. C.B. Owens) 19.

Dispatcher. 221 has an eye witness to the shooting. You want him to hold on to him? Do you want him to keep the eye witness at the scene?

19. Yes.

19. (Sgt. C.B. Owens). 19

Dispatcher. Are you en route to 404 East Tenth where 221 has the eye witness?

19. Yes

 

That is the last physical descriptions in the police dispatch tapes

 

Patrolman Summers did not testify before the Warren Commission nor is there an after-action report from him in the DPD Archives.

Who was this man who could testify to a 5'11” 165 lb suspect?

 

Gerald Hill did not provide Dispatch with a physical description of a “white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, and brown bushy hair", or that he had a witness, whose name he could not remember, that he told the WC that he turned over to Poe. Why was Hill at 12th and Beckley?

If Summers had the eyewitness, who did Hill have in his car?

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

In another Forum, Tom Sorenson corrected me. The third shell addressed by Day in his letter to Belin references one of the rifle shells found on the sixth floor of the TSBD, not one of the revolver shells.

 

Steve Thomas

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

 

Benavides adds another tidbit which point away from our man Ozzie

DPD Sergeant Gerald Hill: "We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.
Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a Jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

 

Where have we heard that physical description before? Oh yeah, that's the physical description that went out over the police radio at 12:45.

Of course, Hill didn't get this witness's name or anything.

Mr. BELIN. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description?
Mr. HILL. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name.

 

Mr. POE. We had--I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit. Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?
Mr. POE. Sir?
Mr. BALL. Do you know what the description was?
Mr. POE. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium,

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. POE. We gave the description to several of the officers at the scene.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever put that description on the radio?
Mr. POE. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it.
Mr. BALL. And what happened after that?
Mr. POE. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. Dominique, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Domingo Benavides?
Mr. POE. I believe that is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he tell you?
Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man,

Mr. BALL. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the Davis girls hand you anything?
Mr. POE. She give me the same general description of the suspect as Mrs. Markham.
Mr. BALL. What was that?
Mr. POE. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about 145 pounds,

 

Poe provides absolutely no account of receiving a witness from Hill.

 

Oh, an BTW, this is going a long way back in my memory, but wasn't one of the problems with the Tippit scene is that five shells were found, but
Tippit had only been shot four times?

Three in the magical mystery cigarette package, and two found by the Davis sisters? Three of one brand and two of another? Speculation was that one shot missed.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Two becomes three and it gets better.

 

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/benavide.htm

Mr. BENAVIDES - Then I seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe 5 foot and then kind of stalled. He didn't exactly stop. And he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner.

Mr. BELIN - When you went back, what did you do?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.

Mr. BENAVIDES - No, sir. He had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already cut back into the yard. He just sort of cut across.
Mr. BELIN - Now you saw him throw two shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - You saw where he threw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. Well, right after that I went back and I knew exactly where they was at, and I went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and I dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so I took out an empty pack of cigarettes I had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/poe.htm

Mr. POE. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up.
Mr. BALL. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn?
Mr. POE. A man, white man.
Mr. BALL. What was he doing?
Mr. POE. He was unloading his pistol as he run.
Mr. BALL. And what did he say?
Mr. POE. He said he picked the two hulls up.
Mr. BALL. Did he hand you the hulls?
Mr. POE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you put any markings on the hulls?
Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the hulls?
Mr. POE. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from the crime lab?
Mr. POE. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Mr. POE. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package.
Mr. BALL. Did you save the Winston cigarette package?
Mr. POE. I turned it in with the two cartridges.
Mr. BALL. To the crime lab?
Mr. POE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are you think it is 'these two? Q-77 and Q-75?
Mr. POE. Yes, sir; those two there.
Mr. BALL. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western Special.

Mr. BALL How long did you stay there?
Mr. POE. At the scene?
Mr. BALL. Uh-huh.
Mr. POE. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime lab got there.
Mr. BALL. Then you left?
Mr. POE. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect.

2:26 PM

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11126#relPageId=68&tab=page

Dispatcher. “75 and 69. Return back to this location. They want the Theater shaken down good for two hulls. Believe the suspect reloaded his pistol in the Theater. We need the two hulls. 2:26 PM”

75. 10-4

105. (Poe) “105, I have recovered two hulls at the scene and they were turned over to the Crime Lab to Pete Barnes.”

Dispatcher. Received.

Dispatcher. 75 and 69 Disregard at this time.

Notice the time. Headquarters is still looking for these shells an hour after Barnes has arrived on the Tippit scene.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/barnes.htm

Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you did out at the crime scene?
Mr. BARNES. I photographed the scene; yes. There was a couple of hulls that was turned over to me.
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean empty shell casings?
Mr. BARNES. Empty .38 caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene by patrolman--I believe I would be safe in saying Poe, but I am not sure about that.

Mr. BELIN. While you were out there, were any additional hulls found other than these two?
Mr. BARNES. Yes. Captain Doughty picked up another hull, .38 caliber.

Mr. BELIN. Did you see Captain Doughty pick it up?
Mr. BARNES. I did not.
Mr. BELIN. Were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out to Captain Doughty, or did he get it himself, or what?
Mr. BARNES. I heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it up.
Mr. BELIN. You mean some citizen?
Mr. BARNES. Some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up?

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where he might have located it? What approximate location?
Mr. BARNES. I was a busy man and I didn't watch his operation.

Mr. BELIN. About when did you say you got out to the Tippit scene?
Mr. BARNES. Approximately 1:40.
Mr. BELIN. 1:40 in the afternoon?
Mr. BARNES. Approximately, November 22.
Mr. BELIN. When would you have started taking these pictures?
Mr. BARNES. Shortly afterwards.
Mr. BELIN. Within 5 or 10 minutes?
Mr. BARNES. Yes.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_gl.htm

Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package... I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible...

 

DPD Archives Box 9, Folder# 3, Item# 2

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box9.htm

Letter from Lieutenant J.C. Day to David Belin of the Warren Commission dated April 23, 1964.

Sir,

“In regard to the third hull which I stated has GD for George Doughty scratched on it, Captain Doughty does not remember handling this. Please check again to see possibly if it can be VD or VBD for Vince Drain.”

 

Steve Thomas

20 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

A rhetorical question would be, how/where does a guy who doesn't drive, "practice" with his rifle?   Wouldn't the neighbors notice or be alarmed? 

Gene

Gene,

 

He got on a bus and took it to Lopfield.

Several times.

*smile*

 

Steve Thomas

On 1/5/2018 at 4:17 PM, Glenn Nall said:

As best I can remember, G. de Mohrenschildt was on Dresser's board along with several other notables. Prescott Bush and his sons were connected. Also the creator and director was some dude whose memory also escapes me, an Army Intel guy, and very wrapped up in all this ugliness.

But WAIT - there's MORE...

 

Glenn,

 

"Dresser Industries was a multinational corporation headquartered in Dallas, Texas, United States, which provided a wide range of technology, products, and services used for developing energy and natural resources. In 1998, Dresser merged with its main rival Halliburton "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresser_Industries

 

Steve Thomas

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Two questions:

Jeanne DeM asks Marina to show her around her and Lee's apartment and after opening a closet door she sees a high powered rifle with a scope?

Marina admits it's Lee's?

Paul, is this the same rifle you claim Oswald used on Walker? If so, how did non-driving, no car owning Oswald get the rifle back home to this apartment from Walker's residence?

Obviously not on any bus night or day. Obviously not by walking home with it during the day.

Did he simply run home with this in the dark cover of night? How far away was Walker's residence from Lee's?

 

Joe,

 

Marina said that Lee told her he had buried it.

I can't speak to other occasions when Marina testified to the authorities, but things get really hinky when Marina is testifying about the rifle.

 

Over the course of time, I've been jotting down notes:

Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

 

Mrs. OSWALD. Of course in the morning I told him that I was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and I asked him, "Where is the rifle? What did you do with it?"
He said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. I don't know---I am not a criminologist.

 

After this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had been using a bus.

 

I know that on a Sunday he took the rifle, but I don't think he fired on a Sunday. Perhaps this was on Friday. So Sunday he left and took the rifle.

 

Mr. RANKIN. If the Walker shooting was on Wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all?
Mrs. OSWALD. Refresh my memory as to what?
Mr. RANKIN. As to the day of the shooting?
Mrs. OSWALD. It was in the middle of the week.

 

Where was the rifle between Sunday and Wednesday – the day of the shooting?

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on Neely Street?
Mrs. OSWALD. Now, I think that he probably did sometimes, but I never did see it. You must understand that sometimes I would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, I will be hack soon, and he may have taken it. He probably did. Perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I think that he went once or twice. I didn't actually see him take the rifle, but I knew that he was practicing.
Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us a little help on how you knew?
Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. And he would mention that in passing---it isn't
as if he said, "Well, today I am going"---it wasn't as if he said, "Well, today I am going to take the rifle and go and practice."
But he would say, "Well, today I will take the rifle along for practice."

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know where he practiced with the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know where. I don't know the name of the place where this took place. But I think it was somewhere out of town. It seems to me a place called Lopfield.
Mr. RANKIN. Would that be at the airport---Love Field?
Mrs. OSWALD. Love Field.

 

I read that Love Field is something like six miles from where they lived on Neely St., so he would have had to have taken the bus, unless someone was giving him rides – all the time while he working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall.

 

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read---where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was.
Mr. RANKIN. Was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, it was open, out in the open.

Therefore, I don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. There was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it.

 

Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XXII

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227

 

Marina told the FBI on February 17, 1964 that she saw Oswald practicing with the rifle at the Neely Street address at the beginning of January, 1963. 9(CE 1156 p. 197).

 

Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall seeing any guns at Mercedes Street while you were there?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? (From Fort Worth to Elsbeth)
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

Mr. RANKIN. While you were at Elsbeth Street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.

 

 

Warren Commission testimony of Marina Oswald February 3, 1964,

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

 

Mr. RANKIN. When did you move to Neely Street from the Elsbeth Street apartment?
Mrs. OSWALD. In January after the new year. I don't remember exactly.

 

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. That was on Neely Street. I think that was in February.

 

 

For whatever reason, this can't be true. The Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3^rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12^th.

 

In her HSCA testimony, Marina couldn't remember the first time she saw the rifle.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

 

Marina's HSCA testimony

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/hscamar1.htm

 

When do you first recall seeing Lee with a rifle in the United States?
Mrs. PORTER. I cannot pinpoint exact month, you know, date of any kind.

Mr. McDONALD. Where did you first see it?
Mrs. PORTER. I do not remember where or when, but I can say that Lee did have a rifle during life in the United States.

 

Current Section: CE 1156 - FBI report dated February 18, 1964, of interview of Marina Oswald, Dallas, Tex. (CD 735, pp. 439-445).

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=227

 

This is cross referenced to DL 100-10461 (4)

 

On February 17, 1964 Marina was interviewed by FBI Special Agents Anatole Boguslav and Wallace Heitman. In their writeup of that interview done on the 18^th, they wrote:

 

“She said further that in the beginning of January, 1963 at the Neely Street address, he, (Lee Harvey Oswald) was cleaning his rifle and he said he had been practicing that day.”

(page 443 of CD 735).

 

For whatever reason, this conflicts with the official record as we know it.. Supposedly the Oswalds moved from Elsbeth to Neely on March 3^rd and according to the postal money order, the rifle wasn't ordered until March 12^th.

CE 1404 - FBI reports dated February 22 and 25, 1964, of interviews with Marina Oswald (CD 735, pp. 446-453).

 

On February 18, 1964 she was again interviewed by Agents Boguslav and Heitman. She told the FBI that she was mistaken about the date, and that the rifle cleaning incident had taken place in March, 1963. The Agents wrote a Report of this interview on February 22, 1964.

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1317#relPageId=815

(This is on page 446 of CD 735)

 

So, let me see if I've got this straight.

Marina first saw the rifle in February, before it had even been purchased.

She first told the FBI that she saw Lee cleaning the rifle in January, but then later told them that she was mistaken and that the cleaning had taken place in March.

It was kept out in the open, but may be he kept it outside.

She never actually saw him take the rifle away from the apartment and never talks about seeing him bring it back.

Lee took the rifle on Sunday, but the shooting wasn't until Wednesday. Where was the rifle in the meantime?

She said that Lee had told her her buried the rifle after the shooting. When did he go back and dig it up?

Lee was riding a bus for six miles with a rifle - several times.

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

32 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - is Frances Raby Whitmeyer related to this story othe than working for the steamship company in New Orleans and being married to Whitmeyer? Remind me - was Whitmeyer a far right Dallas based retired Army Colonel who was in the motorcade?

Paul,

"is Frances Raby Whitmeyer related to this story other than working for the steamship company in New Orleans and being married to Whitmeyer?"

 

No, other than the fact that according to Mary Ferrell's database, " In 1963, his wife Frances Raby Whitmeyer had a gift shop in Trade Mart. There was a rumor that FBI set up command post in her shop on 11/22/63".  https://www.maryferrell.org/php/marysdb.php?id=10103

 

"was Whitmeyer a far right Dallas based retired Army Colonel who was in the motorcade?"

 

I can't say he was "far right", but yes, he rode in the pilot cat with Lumpkin, and Det's Senkel and Turner. Senkel was one of the Detectives dispatched to 1026 N. Beckley.

Lumpkin and Whitmeyer were both in army intelligence.

I believe at this time that Senkel was the officer whose name Fritz couldn't remember, who told Fritz out in the hallway before he even went in the room to interrogate Oswald for the first time, that Oswald lived on Beckley. I think Senkel got that information from Lumpkin and Whitmeyer, and that's why he was dispatched there. When the Detectives got there, they wanted to know if Harvey Lee Oswald lived there.

 

PS: It's the steamship company that caught my attention. I asked myself the question, why would a guy from Florida be taking a steamer out of New Orleans to sail to France. Why wouldn't he just sail out of Florida?

I was just reading this morning that the Lykes Steamship company was the largest shipper of beef to Batista's Cuba before Castro took over.

 

Steve Thomas

 

On 2/12/2017 at 1:16 PM, Steve Thomas said:

Over the years, a number of groups, or at least rogue elements of those groups have been floated as suspects in the assassination of JFK. These have included the CIA, the mob, the right wing, etc. However, I believe that there was another group of people who seem to appear in key circumstances associated with this event; and these are colonels in the U.S. Army Reserves,

 

Lieutenant Colonel George B. Church, Jr.

 

Affidavit of George B. Church

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh11/pdf/WH11_GeorgeChurch_aff.pdf

p. 115

AFFIDAVIT OF GEORGE B. CHURCH, JR.

The following affidavit was executed by George B. Church, Jr., on June 27, 1964.

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION ON THE ASSASSINATION OF AFFIDAVIT PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY STATE OF FLORIDA, county of Hilleborough, 88:

 

I, George B. Church, Jr., 2427 Sunset Drive, Tampa 9, Florida, being duly sworn say :

 

1.”I am a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the United States Army and am now a Junior High School teacher in Tampa. I am attending the University of Florida this summer.

2. My wife and I traveled to Europe on the S.S. Marion Lykes which departed New Orleans, Louisiana for LeHavre, France, on or about September 20, 1959. This vessel was a freighter with accommodations for 12 passengers assigned two to a room. On this particular trip, there were but four passengers aboard. One of them was Lee Harvey Oswald, who shared a state room with an individual named Billy Joe Lord. The trip from New Orleans, Louisiana, terminated at LeHavre, France. The entire trip was approximately 16 days.”

 

OBITUARY

Whitmeyer, Frances Raby was born February 21, 1922 and passed away April 4, 2009. Frances was born in Athens, Alabama to S.W. and Donna Raby. She graduated from Alabama Women's College in Athens. She moved to New Orleans and worked for the Lykes Steamship Co. and also for the City of New Orleans helping to translate French law into English. She later married George Whitmeyer and they moved to Germany where he was stationed after the war.

 

hmmm...

 

Steve Thomas

4 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Lance,

 

Does this mean that what we are looking at here is not Lee Harvey Oswald's signature? It's somebody else's?

 

Steve Thomas

Okay. I see now. This is as you say, just a mockup.

The money order we have in evidence is CE 788.

 

Steve Thomas

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

I assume that this is because it's a mock-up of what we "should have" but don't. 

Lance,

 

Does this mean that what we are looking at here is not Lee Harvey Oswald's signature? It's somebody else's?

 

Steve Thomas

5 hours ago, David Josephs said:

 

The evidence shows the postal money order being found 4 different times in 3 different places....

Holmes' story is pure fantasy...   The found the stub in the money order book... But no stub or book is offered....

Before tearing it should have looked like this.... The stub at the right, in the book of other money orders is proof... Holmes claims are not authentic

David,

 

Why does the money order say 47 cents, but the stub only says 45 cents?

 

Steve Thomas

10 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Interesting, Steve.  George deM is one of the remaining mysteries of the assassination, imo.  However, if George deM was giving Hosty information, why didn't he tell him that the Oswalds left for NOLA after the attempt on Gen. Walker?  Hosty seemed to be clueless about that...

Pamela,

 

Even more than George Dehmorenschildt, I would look to George Bouhe and Max Clark.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tobias.htm

 

Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, the 3d of November--here's the books when you get ready for them--he moved in November 3, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. He moved in the 3d of November 1962?

 

Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, he was in 604--602 and 604--just like this is 604 over here and 602 is down here and there is one down and one up. Mr. Oswald lived in 604 and we live over here in 602 and it faces Elsbeth.

 

FBI interview of George Bouhe:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10672&relPageId=400&search=Bouhe

 

On November 28, 1963 Bouhe was interviewed by SA John Flanagan about any possible relationship between Jack Ruby and Lee Oswald. In the course of the interview, Bouhe "produced a card on which he kept addresses and this card bore the notation dated November 1, 1963, 602 Elsbeth..."

“Following his residence at the YMCA, he said Oswald secured a room in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas, but he could not recall this address, nor did he have a record of it in his papers. At this point Mr. Bouhe produced a card on which he kept addresses.”

(I believe that “1963” was a misprint. It should have been “1962”).

 

WC testimony of George Bouhe March 23, 1964

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

Mr. BOUHE - And on my card I have a date of November the 2d, 1962, that he found this apartment and moved there, but that I heard from others because by that time I lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me.
Mr. LIEBELER - That would have been in November 1962, would it not, Mr. Bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes; and I would say that is pretty good because I think the FBI agent told me they proved that, or something.

 

How could George Bouhe know on November 1^st or 2^nd that Oswald was living in an apartment that he didn't rent until November 3^rd?

 

http://jfkassassinat...ny/voshin_i.htm

Mr. VOSHININ - Yeah - and as far as I know Mr. Bouhe even kept files and still keeps files on everybody - when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody.
Mr. JENNER - I see.
Mr. VOSHININ - He even showed me a file and he said, "Say, you came here, I immediately opened a file on you."
I say, "What for?"
And he say, "Well, you know, I forget things - so I keep a file on everybody."

 

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=129757&search=Alexander_Kleinlerer#relPageId=9&tab=page

 

On December 3, 1968 the FBI interviewed a George Bloodworth, who was a Warrant Officer Candidate in the U.S. Army Helicopter School in Mineral Wells, Texas. He met George Bouhe in the apartment of Alexander Kleinlerer. Bloodworth had formerly been in the Marines and had been stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Tunisia. He was very security conscious. Kleinlerer left the apartment to buy some food at a delicatessan, and Bloodworth and Bouhe got to talking. While they were talking, Bloodworth got the impresion that Bouhe was “one of us”, meaning an Army Intelligence Agent.

 

Bouhe supposedly lost contact with Oswald when he moved to Elsbeth in November of 1962.

I think Oswald's move to Neely took a lot of people by surprise.

 

Steve Thomas

6 hours ago, Richard Price said:

Steve, I do not know about 1963 era postal policies, but I have worked for the USPS for the past 30 years and can tell you about procedures during that over that period of time.  There are whole new set of guidelines established by the Gun Control Act of 1968, so it may or may not be applicable.  Guns, when shipped through the mail may not contain any markings to show that they are guns.  This of course excludes the return address/address which might very well indicate a gun shop/gunsmith/gun retailer or wholesaler.

Richard,

 

Thank you for your response. I figured the package would have advertising all over it, but I guess not.

 

Steve Thomas

Mr. HOSTY. Very much so, yes. I became curious then. Shortly thereafter, on the 29th of October, I received another communication from the New Orleans office advising that they had a change of address for Lee and Marina Oswald to 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.

 

I then went out on the same date, on the 29th of October 1963, to the neighborhood of 2515 West Fifth Street, made inquiry at 2519 West Fifth Street, made what we call a pretext interview, and talked to a woman, whose name at that time I didn't know, but who I now know to be Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.

 

She further told, me that there was a Russian-born and Russian-speaking woman residing with Mrs. Paine. She told me this woman did not speak any English... This woman further advised me that the wife of this Russian-born woman, who was an American, had visited his wife there on one occasion, but did not reside on West Fifth Street in Irving. (He meant husband, not wife).

 

(I) contacted the Bell Helicopter Co. and the security officer at Bell Helicopter, Mr. Ted Schurman, advised me that Michael Paine was employed by them as a research engineer and he held a security clearance.
I then went to St. Marks School in Dallas. I had known from previous experience this school enjoyed a good reputation and I could approach them safely. I talked to Mr. Edward T. Oviatt, the assistant headmaster at St. Marks School. He told me that Mrs. Paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the United States, and he considered her to be a stable individual. He stated that Mrs. Paine was employed as a part-time teacher of the Russian language at that school, and he also advised that in a recent conversation with Mrs. Paine she had advised him that she had a Russian-born woman living with her.
This woman could not speak any English.

 

As late as the late fall of 1963, knowing that Marina could not speak English, and that Lee did not live there, on November 1^st, Hosty went to 2515 W. Fifth St. specifically to talk to Ruth Paine, not Marina.; even though in the Spring of 1963, Hosty was trying to locate Marina "for the purpose of interviewing her".

 

Steve Thomas

23 hours ago, David Josephs said:

It was a 5 foot carton from Kleins addressed to the wrong person's PO Box.   They knew he was getting the WORKER just not a rifle from Kleins which required a variety of steps to pick

David,

 

Does anybody know if Kleins shipped their rifles disassembled or not? If it was broken down, it might not have been 5' long, but surely the package would have been clearly marked, wouldn't it?

 

Steve Thomas

53 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

To emphasize the visibility of Oswald's Dallas postal box, Marina listed P.O. Box 2915 as her new mailing address in a letter to the Soviet Embassy December 31, 1962.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1135#relPageId=513&tab=page

I believe Hosty would claim that a source inside the Dallas Post office helped him locate the Oswalds on Neely Street.   There wasn't a change-of address form created for this address that could be accessed, but Marina did map it out in a letter to Ruth Paine dated March 4, 1963. Otherwise hard to determine how informant inside Post Office could have that information:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=107&tab=page

Jeff,

 

In his WC testimony, Hosty said that he got the Neely St. address from the postal authorities on the same day he went to visit the Oswalds at their Elsbeth St. address, March 11, 1963.

Mrs. Tobias said that she evicted them on March 3rd, so the Oswald's would had to have filed something between the 3rd and the 11th; although Mr. George said he took $60.00 in rent from Oswald on March 2nd, so LHO was looking for another place before Mrs. Tobias evicted them on the 3rd.

Like you say, without a change of address form, it's hard to know how the postal authorities would know this.

 

Steve Thomas