Steve Thomas

Bill,

Now if Robert Steel, the brother of Margaret Hover, who first thought her allegations serious enough

to report to the local State Police, is the same Robert Steel USNR, San Diego, who had access to

LHO's ONI file, then the whole incident can be looked at in a different light.

BK

Here's the entry from Mary Ferrell's database:

LAST STEELE FIRST ROBERT MID/AKA

ADDRESS 316 Brayton Ave., Altoona, PA 'PHONE

SOURCES CD 53, pp. 6-7; "ONI", pp. 196-197

COMMENT Brother of Mrs. Margaret Kathryn Hoover.

LAST STEEL

CD 53 is the FBI Report I cited above.

If someone has access to the book, "ONI", maybe they could cross reference the entries.

Steve Thomas

Bill,

Now if Robert Steel, the brother of Margaret Hover, who first thought her allegations serious enough

to report to the local State Police, is the same Robert Steel USNR, San Diego, who had access to

LHO's ONI file, then the whole incident can be looked at in a different light.

BK

Here's the entry from Mary Ferrell's database:

LAST STEELE FIRST ROBERT MID/AKA

ADDRESS 316 Brayton Ave., Altoona, PA 'PHONE

SOURCES CD 53, pp. 6-7; "ONI", pp. 196-197

COMMENT Brother of Mrs. Margaret Kathryn Hoover.

LAST STEEL

CD 53 is the FBI Report I cited above.

If someone has access to the book, "ONI", maybe they could cross reference the entries.

Steve Thomas

Bill,

Now if Robert Steel, the brother of Margaret Hover, who first thought her allegations serious enough

to report to the local State Police, is the same Robert Steel USNR, San Diego, who had access to

LHO's ONI file, then the whole incident can be looked at in a different light.

BK

Here's the entry from Mary Ferrell's database:

LAST STEELE FIRST ROBERT MID/AKA

ADDRESS 316 Brayton Ave., Altoona, PA 'PHONE

SOURCES CD 53, pp. 6-7; "ONI", pp. 196-197

COMMENT Brother of Mrs. Margaret Kathryn Hoover.

LAST STEEL

CD 53 is the FBI Report I cited above.

If someone has access to the book, "ONI", maybe they could cross reference the entries.

Steve Thomas

Duke,

Having said all of that, returning to the original question since there's been no additional info, here's another poser:

If Marrion Baker was the first law enforcement officer who was to the upper floors of TSBD (with Roy Truly), and if Luke Mooney was the second (other than his partner), who were the two plain clothes officers who came down ... before Mooney got all the way up?

Answer that and ask the question that heads this thread again ....

They may have been with Herbert Sawyer.

Marion Baker said that he ran into Sawyer on his way back down from the roof. Said he even stopped the elevator and spoke to Sawyer.

Sawyer: "And I went with a couple of officers and a man who I believed worked in the building. The elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about."

I believe that the "man who worked in the building" was William Shelley.

Mr. SHELLEY - "Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.

Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.

I can't remember anyone saying that they accompanied Sawyer though.

Steve Thomas

Bill,

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANYTHING ON DET. PAUL BENTLEY, ROBERT D. STEEL OR A.C. SULLIVAN?

BK

Robert Steel was the brother of Margaret Hoover. In the third week of October, Mrs. Hoover found an envelope in her front yard. Inside the envelope was an advertisement. On the back of the advertisement were the words Lee Oswald, Rubenstein, Jack Ruby, and Dallas, Texas.

See the FBI Harris Report of December 2, 1963 pages 6-7.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=7

Steve Thomas

Robert,

As an addendum of sorts, I have been trying to corroborate for some time the identity of J.D. Tippit's 'partner,' who ostensibly 'had the day off' on November 22, 1963. The URL - jdtippit.com, for all it's apparent wealth of information does not list who J.D. Tippit's partner on 11/22/63 was. After researchig this for some time, the only individual I was able to come up with was Billy Fowler. If anyone can affirm that, I would really appreciate it.

This is from Batchelor's Exhibit at 19H126

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol19_0072b.htm

This is a listing of the Southwest Substation Second Platoon 8:00 AM to 4:00 PM

I'm not sure why, but I think it was William Mentzel ?

Steve Thomas

Robin,

James

Do you know these two men who are being led through the DPD at the same time as Oswald.

According to a June 11, 1964 memo from Forrest Sorrells to J. Lee Rankin,

CD 1304 http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/....do?docId=11699

Richard Walter Borchardt was 23, 5'9" tall and 161 lbs

John Thurman Horn was 18, 5'7" tall and 140 lbs.

The memo has a poor photograph of Horn, but he does not look like either of the two people in your photograph.

Steve Thomas

Greg,

In any case, the teenagers in the lineups was one possibility that came to mind when I first read the question. Another possibility that occurred to me was Ray and Gary Joiner of the NIC who were picked up at the trade mart for picketing. Ray was 16 - not sure on Gary's age. The two in the photo do look like brothers to me...

Raymond Lee Joiner was w/m/16 Black Hair, Brown Eyes, 5'2" weight 102

also arrested at the Trade Mart was Gary Dwain Joiner w/m/17 and

William Lee Cummings w/m/17

DPD Archives Box 7 Folder# 7, Item# 18

At first I thought this might have been one of the lineups, but James Leavelle told the WC that:

Mr. LEAVELLE. In one instance--now, I am not positive which one it was, Oswald was in a T-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where they were going to send it to the FBI laboratory for tests, and the rest of them, I believe, had on shirts. He was the only one that had on a T-shirt and I recall--I am not sure but I think it was the last one where he was raising cain about being up there with a T-shirt and wouldn't be quiet

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. LEAVELLE. He said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a T-shirt and being photographed in a T-shirt and all that.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/leave_j1.htm

This is the lineup that involved Whaley and Scoggins at 2:00 in the afternoon of the 23rd.

Whaley also mentioned the fact that Oswald was in a t-shirt

Then they took me down in their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me and this other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were handcuffed together. Well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger.

At that time he had on a pair of black pants and white T-shirt, that is all he had on. But you could have picked him out without identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teenagers and all of that and they asked me which one and I told them. It was him all right, the same man.

Mr. BALL. They had him in line with men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. With five others.

Mr. BALL. Men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. Not much younger, but just young kids they might have got them in jail.

Mr. BALL. Did he look older than those other boys?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/whaley1.htm

At that lineup with Oswald was David Knapp, John Thurman Horn, and David Lujan.

DPD Archives Box 6, Folder# 1, Item#73

Neither of the two men in the pictures looks Hispanic to me.

(As an aside, this particular citation is the only place in the Archives you will find Howard Brennan's name mentioned as being present at a lineup)

Steve Thomas

John,

On the left a blowup from a Murray image. On the right the suspect drawing by the DPD

john w

The first time I saw that police artist sketch, I was struck by how much the person looked like Jean Souetre.

Steve Thomas

James and Larry,

The piece from 1972 is interesting. "David Morales talking about Barker says Barker will tell authorities everything he knows."

I would love to know the context of that.

The cover memo of the document I cited above:

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=12

says this:

"Another CIA officer (David Morales) told Chris Hopkins in a 1972 telephone conversation that Barker was a "loudmoth" who (Morales) recommended terminating in 1962. (Morales) was concerned that as a result of Barker's Watergate involvement, he would "tell the authorities everything he knows."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

Now that could be read a couple of different ways. Was Morales concerned that because Barker was in trouble, he (Barker) might be tempted to tell the authorities "everything he knows" about other things, or just about Watergate?

Steve Thomas

Greg,

Wonder what the training was?

And who Steve was?

I don't know about "Steve", but in reading through documents relating to Bernard Barker last week, I believe that he went to New York City for basic CIA type training; surveillance techniques, use of invisible ink type stuff.

This is from some HSCA staff notes on Barker:

July 20 - August 21 (1964) Barker in New York City receiving basic tradecraft training at the request of Desmond Fitzgerald.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...mp;relPageId=12

Steve Thomas

Wade,

CITY OF MIAMI, FLORIDA

INTER-OFFICE MEMORANDUM

TO: C.H. Sapp, Det. Sgt.

Intelligence Unit

FROM: Everett Kay, Detective

Intelligence Unit

DATE: 12-4-63

SUBJECT:

REFERENCES:

ENCLOSURES:

-----------------------------------

At approximately 6:00 p.m. 3 December 1963, I was contacted by informant known to us as ‘88"

This person was quite upset and relayed to me the following information:

It appears that on or about 27 November 1963, F.B.I. agents questioned a man known to us as MILTEER at Valdosta, Georgia. The extent of this questioning is not determined as this time; but it appears that is was with reference to the assassination of President Kennedy in Dallas, Texas.

"88" called MILTEER and "88" found this information out, and he stated to me that MILTEER was all FOGGED UP, and could not understand why the F.B.I. would question him and how it came about.

"88" stated to me "These people are going to get me killed by such actions"; but he was not fearful of this happening.

I advised "88" to assume status quo position until advised by Detective Sergeant Sapp...

I believe that's Willie Sommerset.

Steve Thomas

Thanks guys. You've been really helpful.

From Mary Ferrell's database:

LAST SILVER FIRST ARNOLD MID/AKA M.

? Is he the Arnold Silver at 154 Chessington Rd., Richmond, VA 23236 in

1994 ? 'PHONE ? (804) 323-0041 ?

SOURCES Dirty Work, Agee and Wolf, pp. 656-657

COMMENT DOB: 12/4/19. POB: Massachusetts. Wife: Annemarie. Received Masters

Degree from Harvard in 1942. Chief of Station, Luxembourg, 1957-1960.

He is probably the "A.S." mentioned in ZRRIFLE (WKH - AS).

Steve

I've been reading some cables and dispatches relating to the ZRRIFLE program and in a memo from AMS to William K. Harvey, it says that "Skip has been given the QJWIN contract, including the extension to 1 March 1963."

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;relPageId=2

Anyone know who Skip might be and whose initials would be AMS?

Steve Thomas

Principal Agent QJWIN was briefed on his mission in Leopoldville in 1960 under the terms of AUDA 234.

Has anyone seen this document?

Also in dispatches relating to QJWIN and Jose Mankel, copies were routed to a project called ZRACORN.

Does anyone know what this project was?

Also, does anyone know what the CIA was doing in Dakar in 1960?

QJWIN was brieffed on a mission to Dakar in November of 1960.

Senegal won its independence from France in April of 1960.

Any help would be appreciated.

Steve Thomas

Ron,

Which cop was this? An officer stationed at the south end of the underpass is news to me.

Ron

Would this be Officer Earl Brown?

You can find the WC testimony of Dallas Policeman Earle Brown before the Warren Commission (vol. VI, pp. 231+).

His testimony is rather confusing (or, I should say Mr. Ball's questioning is confusing), but from what I gather, Patrolman Brown was stationed in the trainyards about 100 yards southwest of the Elm and Houston intersection. When the shots were fired, Officer Brown said that 50-75 pigeons rose off the river bottom.

Steve Thomas

J.,

I was actually hoping he was driving a Rambler wagon.

JW

Going STRICTLY by memory, I thought I had read once that it WAS a Rambler.

Steve Thomas

Tim Gratz said:

According to Gerald Patrick Hemming, Antonoi Veciana told Hemming that the man he saw Lee Harvey Oswald with in Dallas was not Maurice Bishop but was Jake Esterline.

Here's a comparison between the Maurice Bishop sketch, D.A. Phillips and Jake Esterline.

To me, the Bishop sketch doesn't look too much like Esterline.

Steve Thomas

Steve, I have a sketch of Ruby in his cell done by a cartoonist for the long defunct Sydney Daily Mirror. The sketch is captioned: "A Killer Writes His Memoires."

Here's the sketch Greg sent me.

Steve Thomas

Mark,

I'd be curious to know whether Dallas PD's practice in the early 1960's was to interrogate prisoners without making a transcript. Does anyone know if their interrogation of Oswald was the only instance, or was this standard procedure for them?

Here is one man's take on it:

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/history/the_d...eed/Holmes.html

Steve Thomas

Mark,

Years ago I read or heard about how Jack Ruby was actually the father of Oswald. Obviously not true but weird to consider the possibility.

On December 9, 1963 Lt. Jack Revill and Detective H.M. Hart filed a report with Chief Curry writing that Lt. George Butler had informed them that he (Butler) had information that Jack Ruby had applied for a visa to visit Mexico at the same time Oswald traveled there. Butler suggested to Revill that Revill should contact the Mexican Consulate.

They also said that Butler told them that he had information that Oswald was Ruby’s illegitimate son.

DPD Archives, Box 5, Folder# 7, Item# 36

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box5.htm

I once spent some time trying to determine if Jack Ruby was in San Francisco at the same time as Marguerite Oswald. I never was able to pin it down satisfactorily. Ruby went back to Chicago in 1937 and Oswald is supposed to have been born in 1939.

Steve Thomas

I ran across some random notes dictated by Jack Ruby, I guess while he was in jail. They appear to run about 75 pages.

On page 37 of his notes, Jack tells about going out to the airport with the band to meet country music star Hank Snow. He says he confided to Snow that it was Jimmie Dickens who had called him (Ruby) to look after Hank Williams. See here for a picture of Jimmie Dickens:

http://nashville.about.com/library/blank/f...bldickens02.htm

Jimmie Dickens is calling Jack Ruby?

"We all retired at the Hotel, and Hank Williams was still asleep when I came back to the room..."

Jack Ruby is sharing a hotel room with Hank Williams?

He starts out, "The following morning..." and it looks like there is a paragraph whited out.

Steve Thomas

Greg,

Steve, I have a sketch of Ruby in his cell done by a cartoonist for the long defunct Sydney Daily Mirror. The sketch is captioned: "A Killer Writes His Memoires."

Have tried to put it up as a file attachment but it's way too big, and I can't figure out how to reduce it in size. If you want it, send an email and I'll attach it in reply.

Sure, you could send it to me.

What file format is it in?

You can get a free picture viewer/editor program called Irfanview. Once you get it installed, click on the word image and then resample/resize. You could send it to me, I'll resize it and post it on the forum.

sthomas@ohio.lib.in.us

Steve Thomas

I just started reading, and haven't run across any bombshells or anything, but it's facinating reading about Ruby's life in Dallas. He sure got in a lot of fights.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...649&relPageId=1

Steve Thomas

If nothing else, these notes put to bed the lie that Ruby only carried a gun because he carried lots of money. They also put to bed the lie that JR didn't carry his gun around with him and only kept it locked in the trunk of his car.

Steve Thomas

I ran across some random notes dictated by Jack Ruby, I guess while he was in jail. They appear to run about 75 pages.

I just started reading, and haven't run across any bombshells or anything, but it's facinating reading about Ruby's life in Dallas. He sure got in a lot of fights.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...649&relPageId=1

Steve Thomas

Francesca,

I just happened to come across a rather interesting document in the NARA online search database regarding this man. The title reads:

"JOHN V. MARTINO NAMES HIS SOURCE ON OSWALD'S ACTIVITIES IN MIAMI AS OSCAR ORTIZ."

Anyone know more about him? Was he involved with JM/WAVE?

You might want to read Warren Commission Document 1169 starting on page 1

and FBI HSCA Administrative Folder M6 page 197.

Martino said that he met Ortiz in a Cuban prison.

CD 1169 p. 1

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...565&relPageId=2

FBI HSCA Administrative Folder# M6 p. 197

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...0&relPageId=197

Steve Thomas

Duke,

Does anyone know /a/ which of the 75 TSBD employees were not fingerprinted, /b/ what the disposition of those prints collected was (i.e., became CEs, CDs, FBI files, etc.), /c/ if that data is available today and, if so, from where (file IDs helpful), and /d/ what data (images) exists of ALL of the prints found on the boxes, whether identified, identifiable, eliminated or not, and if so, where they can be obtained.

You can get a list of the employees who were fingerprinted from 26H beginning at page 799

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...2&relPageId=835

I like using this site because you can blow up the magnification of a page. It makes it much easier to read.

I guess you could compare that against a list of all the employees and determine who was not fingerprinted.

The list of TSBD employees is on pages 802 and 803 I think. In the back and forth between Hoover and Rankin, there is also a list of the FBI agents and DPD officers who handled the boxes.

It's interesting. Truly refused to let the FBI fingerprint any female employees.

Steve Thomas