Steve Thomas

Pat,

What I was curious about was if there was a map of the offices, showing which company was behind each window, etc.

Through a process of elimination, you might go through the WC testimony of some of the TSBD employees here:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

In particular, look at Victoria Adams and Doris Burns. They were asked in which window they stood to watch the parade.

Steve Thomas

Pat,

What I was curious about was if there was a map of the offices, showing which company was behind each window, etc.

Through a process of elimination, you might go through the WC testimony of some of the TSBD employees here:

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm

In particular, look at Victoria Adams and Doris Burns. They were asked in which window they stood to watch the parade.

Steve Thomas

Peter,

Jack, or anyone, the 'hobos' found in the train car - where exactly was it located when stationary and when stopped? Was there ever a report on locations of all train cars and movement that day near DP?

A railroad train carrying three "tramps" began to leave the freight train area west and north of the TSBD at around one o'clock, thirty minutes after the shots. The train was under the tower control of Lee Bowers and was stopped by him. The tramps were arrested.

I don't want to hijack Jack's thread, but here is something I posted back in January:

Some researchers believe that two sets of tramps were arrested based on the timing and location of the arrests. One set was taken off a boxcar in the yards behind the TSBD shortly after the assassination. The three tramps we are familiar with were arrested in a gondola type car 400 - 500 yeards south south of Dealey Plaza.

I believe that the same set of tramps were arrested twice - once by the Dallas County Sheriff's Department, and the second time by the Dallas City Police Department.

From Denis Morissette's site:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senat.../Documents.html

William Earl Chambers was interviewed on 3/3/92 by SA Gary Gerszewski of the FBI and Lieutenant Kenneth Lybrand, City of Dallas Police Department.

William Chambers worked for the City of Dallas Police Department from October, 1954 until January, 1992. In approximately 1959, or 1969, he as assigned as a Detective in the Forgery Division

He was assigned to the Trade Mart and went back to City Hall after it was announced that JFK had died.

When Chambers and the other officers arrived back at the forgery division, “Captain Jones assigned Chambers to watch three hobos who were already at the station when Chambers arrived”.

Chambers questioned them together and found their answers confusing and inconsistent.

“their stories as to where they came from and where they were headed differed from individual to individual.

“When questioned regarding the circumstances of their arrest, the three individuals indicated that they were on a freight car sleeping when they were wakened by officers with different colored uniforms than the ones worn by the officers who drove them down to the station.

Question: Sleeping? what time was this? They got out of the Salvation Army and on the way to the freight yards heard that the President had been shot. It couldn’t have been more than an hour lapsed maybe. Different colored uniforms? Driven down to the station?

“They were briefly questioned by those officers who then told them that they better leave town. The three then boarded another boxcar and were shortly thereafter arrested by the City of Dallas Police Department”.

“Chambers believes that the Officers who first interviewed the hobos were members of the Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, who at that time had uniforms of a different color than that of the City of Dallas Police Department. The hobos were then brought down to the station.

During the course of the interview, Grinell came into Captain Jones office for a minute and discussed the possibility of conducting a “gunpowder” test on the hands of the hobos.

Later, Captain Jones came into the office and advised Chambers that they had arrested the individual who had shot Officer Tippit and that he was the one who had also shot the President. Chambers then advised the three individuals, “You’re free to go”. The three then left the office. Chambers never saw them again.

Question: What were they still doing in jail four days later?

Lee Bowers in his testimony before the Warren Commission, vol VI, p. 288:

Between 50 and a hundred policemen came up the slope within 5 minutes. “That’s right. Sealed off the area and I held off the trains until they could be examined, and there were some transients taken on at least one train.”

Contrast this with a passage in the Dallas Police Tapes at 1:57 PM:

1:57 Dallas Police Tapes

1579. 61: 61.

1580. DIS: 61.

1581. 61: We have information from the agent out here at the T&P.

Said that the train is stopped on the overpass, the

Triple Overpass; that there was a person jump in the

ninth box car from the front engine. Said he's hiding in

the car.

1582. DIS: Is the train stopped there now?

1583. 61: I'm in behind the Texas Shool Depository. He has the

train stopped. (voices) He said it is the ninth car from

the engine, a gondola-type car; said he is hankered down

inside.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

Thanks very much, Steve. The 31 July date is very helpful.

Any other information that anyone has on this would be greatly appreciated.

Would you be willing to receive an email from me with an attachment?

I have about 100 pages of raw notes theat I've collected on the Christian Democratic Party and some of the people associated with the training camp - not the one where the explosives were found.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

Do you (or might anyone reading here) have any actual media or other accounts of that incident with the Lake Pontchartrain camp(s) being shut down and the arms cache that was confiscated with specific dates? Any web-accessible sources on this would be greatly appreciated.

Ashton

There were two camps. The one with the explosives was raided on July 31, 1963.

ARRESTED AT LACOMBE

John Koch Gene, Sam Benton, Richard Lauchli, Earl J. Wassem Jr. Ralph Folkerts, Victor Espinosa, Carlos Eduardo Hernandez Sanchez, Acela Pedros Amores, Miguel Alvarez Jimenez, Antontio Soto Vasquez, Victor Panque. In response to FBI queries, Carlos Hernandez took the Fifth Amendment about the dynamite, and said he was associated with Manuel Artime.

You might want to read ajweberman's Nodule 14, about two thirds ddown the page.

http://ajweberman.com/nodules2/nodulec14.htm

Steve Thomas

Lee,

Hi Steve - if there is I have not seen it. All I have seen revolves around the story of the event - as it was relayed by Garrison to Roger Craig, etc.

- lee

I just read that Jim Marrs' book, Crossfire is supposed to have a list of the people arrested and/or detained for questioning that day.

Steve Thomas

Lee,

Aside from the mystery Garrison photo, there doesn't appear to be any record of a Cuban having been arrested and released that day - at least, nothing I could find.

Wasn't there a report somewhere about a man being picked up in Dealey Plaza, but then released because he didn't speak English?

Steve Thomas

Bill,

One of the hallmarks and “fingerprints of intelligence” that makes the assassination of President Kennedy a covert intelligence operation is the foreknowledge certain people had of the event, and expressing it to others before it occurred.

Telephone Call overheard by Elizabeth Cole in New Jersey.

FBI Admin Folder N6 multiple pages.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/...amp;docId=10032

Steve Thomas

Pat,

If anyone has a list of all the occupants on the West side of the building, that would be helpful.

Here's a list of the Dal-Tex occupants.

In a biographical summary of Andy Armstrong's life, it says that in 1962, he worked for the Marilyn Belt Factory.

In January 1962, he got a job at the Marilyn Belt Factory. While working there, he also took a part-time job at the Carousel Club for Jack Ruby. During June 1962, Armstrong began working full time for Ruby who employed him as a bartender and general maintenance man for a salary of approximately per week plus tips.

Notice it has the same phone number as the Dallas Uranium&Oil Co.

Steve Thomas

Robin,

Robin,

In the frame below there are two women standing to the left of Toni Foster.

I beleive these may be the same women seen in the Bronson frame above.

one in a PINK dress and one in a BROWN dress.

I believe that the third woman to Toni Foster's left shows up in the later stages of the Bell film walking down the street and against the flow of pedestrians.

Steve Thomas

I'm sorry, it's not the Bell film, it's the Hughes film.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

1. Did Sheriff Decker clear the County Courts building (RED ARROW) right after shots were fired by ordering all the Sheriff department personnel out into the field?

Here is a transcript of what Sheriff Decker broadcast over Channel 2 of the Dallas Police Department at 12:30 from Chief Curry's lead car:

"Have my office move all available men out of my office into the railroad yard to try to determine what happened in there and hold everything secure until Homicide and other investigators should get there."

Here is what was broadcast by the Sheriff's Department dispatcher at 12:30:40:

"Stand by 1. All units and officers in the vicinity of the station report to the railroad track area, just north of Elm. Report to the railroad track area just north of Elm."

Hope that helps.

Steve Thomas

Robin,

In the frame below there are two women standing to the left of Toni Foster.

I beleive these may be the same women seen in the Bronson frame above.

one in a PINK dress and one in a BROWN dress.

I believe that the third woman to Toni Foster's left shows up in the later stages of the Bell film walking down the street and against the flow of pedestrians.

Steve Thomas

I seem to recall something on the Groden video about the west window of the sixth floor having a "figure" in it. Does anyone know if this photo is cropped, or is this the entire view?

MV

On one of the usenet newsgroups a poster was writing that Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman lied when they said that after the shots rang out, they ran to the westernmost window and Jarman opened it.

Does the Moorman photo show the window already opened before the motorcade came down Elm?

Steve Thomas

Sid,

According to this source, these are some basic facts about Zapruder:

Religion: Jewish

Any indication at all that he attended the same synagogue as Jack Ruby?

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

5. If Oswald was destined for the County jail facility (RED BUILDING), why was he taken to the Municipal jail facility (GREEN BUILDING) first (I mean other than to provide an opportunity to have him shot)?

As Jack said in his response, the offenses took place in the city limits of Dallas, which put Oswald in their jurisdiction.

If I can make sense of Bill Decker's rather convoluted way of speaking, if a prisoner had been charged with a felony and arraigned, in the case of a felony, Decker would get together with Fritz and work out a plan for transferring him to the county jail which was much more secure that the Dallas City jail.

Mr. DECKER - Oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of 750 prisoners.

Mr. HUBERT - Do you have what might be called maximum security there?

Mr. DECKER - Yes; I do--there are many maximums--I have 450 maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. The others are built in the old jail which was built in 1913. Of course, my steel isn't so good in that old jail.

Mr. HUBERT - By maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out?

Mr. DECKER - It is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern locks. The man who maintains it--the opening and closing of the doors to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, I'm sorry to say. You don't need to put that in there. They are no longer with me. They opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their jobs and I lost five prisoners.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/decker.htm

A more intriguing question for me was why Oswald was not booked and fingerprinted in the basement of City Hall before being taken up to the third floor for questioning.

One of the officers told the WC that sometimes in cases of felonies or serious crimes, prisoners were taken directly to the third floor without being processed first; however, I've looked and can't find which one told the WC that. As you know, Oswald wasn't fingerprinted until 9:00 that night.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

The street address for the Municipal Building was 106 S. Harwood. It was bounded by Main and Commerce and was about ten or eleven blocks east of Dealey Plaza.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

The street address for the Municipal Building was 106 S. Harwood. It was bounded by Main and Commerce and was about ten or eleven blocks east of Dealey Plaza.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

The first questions that actually gave rise to all this, relevant only to 1963, were:

1. Okay, really: Where was the hell was the "Dallas Police Department"?

The street address for the Municipal Building was 106 S. Harwood. It was bounded by Main and Commerce and was about ten or eleven blocks east of Dealey Plaza.

Steve Thomas

Bill,

Machann, Walter Michael, Father – (Also spelled MaChann, McKann and McChan)

Although I don’t like their style or agree with their take on the tramps, and have other problems with their work, the La Fontaine’s book “Oswald Talked” had some new and interesting items worth pursing, including the Cuban Catholic Committee of Dallas and the Catholic Relief Services.

I spent some time trying to find out if there was any connection or overlap between the Cuban Catholic Committee and the Christian Democratic Movement (the MDC). I didn't find any, but the possibilities were intriguing. I wondered if Lucille Connell was one of the people involved in the Nancy Perrin Rich story. Sylvia Odio's story of Ms. Connell sure reads like the behavior of a "handler" - like de Mohrenschildt's behavior towards LHO. It seems like the CCC would be an ideal conduit for spiriting people in and out of places.

From Marina Oswald Porter's letter to the ARRB in April, 1996:

7. Reports of the FBI investigation of Cuban exiles in Dallas, to include known but still classified documents on Fermin de Goicochea Sanchez, Father Walter Machann and the Dallas Catholic Cuban Relocation Committee. These would include informant files for Father Machann and/or reports of interviews of Father Machann by Dallas FBI agent W. [Wallace] Heitman.

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/DPQ/marina~1.htm

Steve Thomas

Pat,

I have recently reviewed all the eyewitness evidence I could find. I don't recall reading the statements of any black witnesses along Elm. In front of the TSBD, yes. Along Elm, no. I don't believe any of the witnesses in the Croft photo were identified or interviewed.

I agree. I believe that it would be arich field of research to go through the archives (if there are any) of the Dallas Post Tribune, a black oreiented newspaper in Dallas. In 1950, the name was changed to the Star Post.

Steve Thomas

Ashton,

I've been somewhat amazed at the seeming difficultly of locating anything resembling an easily accessible comprehensive repository of the known photos and films from the Kennedy assassination.

Ashton Gray

As far as photos, you might want to check this site out:

http://jfkmurderphotos.bravehost.com/photos.html

Steve Thomas

Stephen,

I dont know if this information has already been posted here. If it has I beg your indulgence.

In a November 4th 1963 memo, HL Hunt security chief Paul Rothermel informed his boss that there had been, "Unconfirmed reports of possible violence during the motorcade" Rothermel did not directly identify his sources,

That's really coincidental.

I was just reading those memos and reports yesterday myself.

Steve Thomas

Over the last couple of days, I have been trying to determine if the police who responded to the call to search the houses in the 400 block of East Jefferson, also responded to go to the Library and what happened to them.

Based on the Dispatch tapes, it appears that most of them did not go to the Library, but they do evetually show up at the Theater.

Sgt. Owens told the WC, “Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the library,”

Sgt. Hill, who took an active part in searching at least two houses, told the WC, "At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple more officers standing outside..."

I think it would be worthwhile to try and get these men's stories. Most of them did not file a report with Chief Curry on their activities that day, and most of them did not testify before the Warren Commission. Roy Walker would be an interesting person. He was at all three locations.

1:23 Suspect is reported to be fleeing west on Jefferson from 400 East Jefferson

1:27 19 Reports that the suspect has been seen in the 400 block of East Jefferson and requests squads

All hell seems to break loose. Squads started reporting in from all over that they were enroute - many from neighboring districts like 75, 76, 77 and 79, but also from other substations around the City.

1:27 79: enroute Billy W. Anglin

1:27 412: enroute CID (This may have been the car that Lt. Cunningham, Marvin Buhk, J.B. Toney and E.E. Taylor were in).

1:28 75: almost there E.G. Sebastian (2nd Platoon Headquarters Station)

1:28 76: enroute Henry H. Horn

1:28 16: I’ll be out on East Jefferson Sgt. Roy D. Shipley (2nd Platoon Northeast substation)

1:29 77: Going back over about 400 East Jefferson Walter E. Smith

1:29 93: enroute Holly M. Ashcraft (2nd Platoon Northwest Substation)

1:30 79: enroute Billy W. Anglin

1:30 95 enroute Maurice N. McDonald and Thomas R. Gregory

1:30 221’s: about there H.W. Summers

1:30 223: 223’s: there C.T. Walker

As far back as 1:22, Unit 85 had given a description of the suspect to Dispatch, so we know he is there. Roy W. Walker

1:33, 19 reports that they are shaking down these old houses in the 400 block of East Jefferson Sgt. Calvin “Bud” Owens

1:33, 95 asks Dispatch to send a squad to 10th and Crawford to check out this church basement Maurice N. McDonald

66: enroute Frank S. Williams (2nd Platoon Headquarters Station)

1:34, 223 reports that the suspect is in the Library C.T. Walker

Sgt Owens, “Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the library,”

1:34 85: enroute Roy W. Walker

1:34 6(?): enroute

1:35 29: enroute J.M. Williams

1:35 22 they’ve got him hole up in this building Leonard L. Hill (2nd Platoon Northwest Substation)

1:35 211: out at that location Ray Hawkins

Hawkins told the W.C. that Elmer Baggett and Hutson were in the car with him

1:36 19: We’re all at this location Sgt. Owens

1:36 Dis: 223 is supposed to be there C.T. Walker

1:45 We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater

1:45 85: Out that way Roy W. Walker

1:46 111: enroute Jerry G. Pollard (2nd Platoon Headquarters Station)

1:46 76 Code 5 Henry H. Horn

1:46 492: Out at Texas Theater CID (Carroll and Lyons)

1:46 85: At Texas Theater Roy W. Walker

1:47 Dis orders someone to go to the rear of the Theater

1:47 211 says there are about five squads back here with me now Ray Hawkins

1:48 15 says send 99 to the Texas Theater

1:48 29: about two blocks away J.M. Williams

1:49 99 re-directed to go to the TSBD

1:49 19: 15 and some squads are going to the Texas Theater Cap’t Talbert

(Paul Bentley rode with Captain Talbert)

1:52 550/2: suspect on the shooting the police officer is apprehended Sgt Gerald Hill

At 2:04, 77: reports Clear Walter E. Smith

75: I’m still in front of the theater E.G. Sebastian

At 2:06, 66 radios in and says, see if you can raise 79, we have his shotgun

66 is Frank S. Williams and 79 is Billy W. Anglin

Steve Thomas

Francesca,

I found this very interesting memo on the Mary Ferrell site and talks about another training camp near New Orleans that came up in Garrison's investigation.

Since it was activated on February 12, 1961 and close on April 21, 1961, I would suspect the training that took place there had to do with the Bay of Pigs invasion.

Steve Thomas

Hi Greg,

You wrote:

Steve, I looked into Gregory a while back, and was also unable to find what had happened to him.

You mention above the church being searched. Do you know who searched it? As far as I've been able to ascertain, it wasn't.

I agree.

The only person I can find talking about the Church is Gerald Hill and a careful reading of his testimony leaves the impression that he did not go inside. He said that accident investigator, Bob Apple was at the scene. There is a B.L. Apple listed on p. 132 of Batchelor’s Exhibit as being with the Accident Prevention Bureau of the Traffic Division on the 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM shift.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol19_0075b.htm

Apple did not testify to the WC and there are no reports from him in the DPD Archives.

I read an old thread on the alt.conspiracy.jfk newsgroup that said because Hill was on foot and tied up at the Church, he completely missed the exchange about the Library. He was unaware of it.

McDonald is the only person I can find who places McDonald at the library. Are you aware of any others who place him there? IMO, he did not go to the library, he went into the church where, according to DPD transcripts, "A witness said he saw [the suspect] last at the Abundant Life Temple at 10th..."

Funny how no one mentioned that in testimony and that it was excised from the version in the Sawyer exhibits.

At 1:33 PM on the Channel 1 transcripts, there is this exchange:

95: Send squad over here to Tenth and Crawford to check out

this church basement.

1189. DIS: Need a squad at Tenth and Crawford.

(noises)

1190. 66: 66 en route.

1191. DIS: 10-4.

95 is McDonald

66 is Ptm. F.S. Williams

One minute later, at 1:34, C.T. Walker announces that the suspect is at the Library and everyone in the world takes off.

I’ve never read where someone else places McDonald at the Library, but it’s possible that McDonald could have been at both places.

One more question. Did anyone give McDonald and Gregory the order to go to Oak Cliff?

Reading his testimony, it appears he actually abondoned orders and went to Oak Cliff on some type of intuition that he'd be the arresting officer. I'm asking on the off chance he just forgot he was ordered there, and that some testimony or document exists which shows he received such an order. Without it, and in light of what happened thereafter, it's difficult not to wonder about McDonald.

Herbert Sawyer told the WC, “Mr. SAWYER. The only other thing I can remember that I did down there, was when the shooting on Officer Tippit came in, I released half a dozen men to go to Oak Cliff to help with that.”

McDonald could have been one of them.

Greg, you wrote, “according to DPD transcripts, "A witness said he saw [the suspect] last at the Abundant Life Temple at 10th..."

Can you tell me where in the transcripts that appears, and who transmitted it?

Steve Thomas

Over the last couple of days, I've been trying to find out what happened to the man riding with M.N. McDonald. His name was T.R. Gregory. McDonald was training him.

Mr. BALL - Did you ride alone or have a partner?

Mr. McDONALD - No, sir; I had a partner.

Mr. BALL - What is his name?

Mr. McDONALD - T. R. Gregory.

After the president was shot, they reported to the TSBD and helped with crowd control.

When the call came out about Tippit's shooting McDonald and Gregory went to the scene. McDonald dropped Gregory off to assist in searching the houses in the 400 block of East Jefferson while he (McDonald) cruised through the alleys.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go to the 400 block on Jefferson?

Mr. McDONALD - I was stopped by other officers there. They wanted to search a house. So I relieved my partner to go to help the supervisors search this house, in the 400 block of East Jefferson. Then I went around to the alleys, and started cruising the alley in my squad car.

Notice that McDonald says, “supervisors.”

Two of the supervisors who were there at the houses on Jefferson were Sgt. Gerald Hill and Sgt. Calvin “Bud” Owens.

19: “One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he's in this block, the 400 block of East Jefferson behind this service station. Would you give me some more squads over here?”

19 is Calvin Owens.

Beginning at about 1:27 on the Dispatch tapes, officers were being instructed to report to the 400 block of East Jefferson. Units 79, 76, 77, 79, 93, 95, 221, 223 and 412 responded.

None of those units except for 95 (McDonald) and 223 (C.T. Walker) testified before the WC.

Mr. HILL. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand furniture.

By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man running towards these houses. At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front door of the house that would have been to the west--it was the farthest to the west of the two--shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked.

Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on this building at all.

Hill left the scene of the houses and went back to where Tippit had been shot and gave 105’s keys back to him. (Poe and Jez). He then walked to the Abundant Life Temple and was prepared to search it.

Owens remained outside the houses while other officers went in to do the actual search.

Mr. OWENS. Then we started searching the buildings and houses--there are some old two-story houses there used as businesses.

Mr. ELY. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you just look through the halls?

Mr. OWENS. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and the other officers were going in.

When the radio announced that the suspect was in the Library, McDonald sped off leaving his partner behind. When the radio announced that the suspect was in the Theater, McDonald sped there without picking up his partner (or the man he was training anyway).

McDonald told the WC that he never saw Gregory again that day.

Mr. BALL - Did you go down there with your partner?

Mr. McDONALD - No, sir; I had let my partner out on arrival; my first arrival in the 400 block.

Mr. BALL - He was on foot?

Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir; I didn't see him any more that day.

I thought that was sort of odd behavior.

Gregory didn't testify to the WC and the only reports from him in the DPD Archives concerned his activities on the 24th.

All reports had the suspect running west on Jefferson and the houses and church that were being searched were all west of where Tippit got shot. But when the radio announced that the suspect was in the Library, which is east of where Tippit got shot, virtually every officer in the vicinity sped off to the Library. The search of the houses and church were abandoned.

Neither Hill or Owens spoke of taking Gregory with them and Bill Alexander did not testify to the WC. What happened to Gregory?

Steve Thomas