Michael Walton

Thanks Paul. Some of your ideas do parallel Jim D's theories which is fine. To be honest, I did not read Probe when it was published. Not because I didn't want to but because I just did not know about it. Obviously, the internet opens the world for folks - for better or for worst - and that's how I started learning more and more about the assassination because everything I wanted to read about it was right there on my computer screen. The problem with that, though, is sifting through the craziness and plausible stuff. I basically like to keep my thoughts on the murder plausible and real-world. Meaning - and I've said this numerous times - not everything was a conspiracy in this case. Such things as painting in blobs on the Z film, 67% of the frames of the Z film being removed, Jackie did it, the guy standing on the Dealey Plaza steps holding a gun in his hand and all of the other craziness. But I digress because one person's craziness is another person's zealotry in pursuit of the truth. So with that said, Jim's writings and others like Jim Douglass, just seem to make the most sense to me. Yes, I do agree with you that Oswald was probably a smart guy. Where you and I (and you and Jim and others) will diverge is *how* Oswald was used leading up to 11/22.

Bob, I'm not doubting your hunting experience, nor the fact that I'm sure you've seen some very interesting shooting results. I'm simply stating that you never know how the human body or object will react to a bullet shot. George, we have to give the planners credit for keeping the kill zone very tight. Frame 158 is way too early - they would have had to have known that no shots from the fake 6th floor sniper's nest would have been blocked by the large oak tree. Josh Thompson, and I've always agreed with him, states that the very first shot to hit is right after Kennedy appears from behind the sign. I believe the first shot was the throat shot and then immediately afterward is the back shot. You can see this in the Z film when Kennedy lurches forward from the impact of the back shot slamming into him - he reaches up, then his head bobs back and forward from this back shot. They had to have known all of this and didn't start shooting until as stated above but not before that.

Nah you don't have to be a hunter to see this kind of thing. Two guys side by side taking a high powered assault gun to the back of his head. One's head throws out a piece of rear skull but is intact; the other's head is shredded like Kennedy's was. How do you explain nearly identical set ups? If you don't believe me look for the video I posted on this forum. I know we're talking upper back vs head here but the point is the same. No one knows 100%. The magic bullet was round nosed vs pointy and based on what I've seen anything is possible for a bullet like that to stop dead. That part of the body is pretty thick with coarse muscles.

I'm concerned here because Paul is all in with witness statements being pure gold to prove LHO was a wife beater. But over on another thread about whether LHO was in Mexico Paul states that witness statements got it wrong about Mexico. So why are some statements pure gold for Paul while others aren't? Isn't that greasing the screw to fit your own agenda?

Thanks Thomas. That's what I thought.

Bob I know you like to discuss ballistic or the theory of them. You might want to look around on the interwebs and find actual gunshots hitting skulls and bodies. You'd be amazed to find that bullets don't always act like you'd think they do. Bullets hitting live bodies from distances and up close. So yes it's very possible that a shot could have hit his upper back in that strap type muscle and just died there, not exiting, and then fell out. We can't always depend on a guy shooting 50 bullets into gel and then writing down the results. Micah yes I think anything is possible about if a bullet fell out into his clothes.

Can someone tell me what the point of this thread is? l like the way Bob said "for those unfamiliar..." but I still don't understand what all of this has to do with the case.

I would absolutely love to see that photo! Didn't even know something like that may exist. Mike Clark you seem interested in learning here though I do question why you want to use a photo for a riddle. You might want to open a Word file and just start creating your own version of links of old and favorite forum links.

I find it very hard to believe that the woman seen in the tire ad photo is the same one standing on the curb in the Z film. She seems pretty stocky in the ad and the Z film version her legs seem quite slim.

Don't forget that the magic bullet could have actually caused the back wound and somehow could have fallen out, was found, and then was assigned its magic bullet status. The shape of that bullet fits perfectly in the hole seen in the photo of the back wound.

Sandy - you must be mixing me with someone else. Here you go Sandy: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/23307-muchmore-film-split-into-8-gifs/&page=2#comment-340173 After finding the above, it made me realize even more how "interesting" your keen analytical skills are about a guy who's clapping (according to you he's not) and no pistol (according to you, there is). Paul - The challenge for the JFK researcher is to identify exactly where the lies reside. You have not done that. You seem to be content to dismiss the whole WC as 100% lies. That is an amateur approach. Well, that's it, folks. Time to put the research books away. Computers and keyboards? Psshhh, just throw em in the trash. Paul Trejo has all of the answers. Every single one of them. Every single statement, word, and bit of testimony in the WR is as good as gold. No questions asked, says Paul.

I must say that I don't quite get the emphasis on the testimony ( by people we know for a fact personally met, knew and interacted with the Oswalds in person ) t Did you even bother to read the PDF I posted earlier?

A good post. I've posted the video on Ken Burns's Facebook page, reminding him to mention this in upcoming series on Vietnam. We shall see if he includes it or not, or basically saying Kennedy started it all.

Jim H - 21 Reasons.... Yes, and all of that too. I mean again, we're getting into one-billion-to-1 odds here. All of the stuff in that PDF I posted, as well as these 21 Reasons happening to one single ex-Marine hopping around from job to job, living in different rooming houses with a Russian wife, a baby, and one on the way. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's...a cow? No way. Anyone who thinks it is a cow is either loony or too blind to see the truth. Is it any wonder he had to go, especially after playing it coy at the midnight press conference but speaking far more truthful at the little impromptu in the hallway, saying "Now everyone will know who I am" and going into quite a bit of detail about the fake backyard photos? [Jim H - thanks for posting your 21 Reasons]

On a somewhat related note, Ken Burns, the PBS baseball guy, is coming out with his multi-part series on Vietnam this fall. I tried reaching out to him through the PBS website to remind him to make it fair about Kennedy's NSAM but had no luck - all of their email addresses there are dead. We shall see how fair it is in the early going of the series: http://www.pbs.org/about/blogs/news/the-vietnam-war-a-new-film-by-ken-burns-and-lynn-novick-to-air-fall-2017-on-pbs/

Sandy - Michael, what the hell are you talking about? I'm not going to read that long PDF to try and figure out what you're accusing me of. This is exactly what I mean. There's a lot of good stuff in that PDF that talks about how it was the White Russians' main mission to paint Oswald in a bad light. As Paul B said, he was pretty much tried in absentia and because he couldn't defend himself, well, it's pretty easy to paint a person as a wife beater, loner, and all-around crazy kid who wanted to kill Kennedy. But as it goes on this forum, no one wants to listen to reason or they have their own agenda and just blindly keep posting away without considering the well-written PDF and other alternative thoughts. Mike Clark - hard on. No hard ons here for Sandy or anyone. But if you took the time to read other people's posts here, you'll find some pretty crazy ideas that have no basis for reason or plausibility. There was one post where SL and I debated whether the guy on the steps had his arms crossed or was clapping. It's obvious to *anyone* that he's clapping but not to SL. Then I guess he saw the light and posted one of those "stick your tongue out" icons. I guess that was his way of acknowledging he was wrong. Paul - thoughts on Jim DiEugenio. My thoughts are this - Lee Oswald was a low-level Marine. Somehow, he got trained to speak Russian, was working on that base in Japan where U-2 flights took place, got involved in intelligence, was sent to Russia on some kind of mission (perhaps to sniff out a mole), got married to a Russian girl after only knowing her for six days, came back easily to the U.S. with his Russian wife - all during one of the hottest periods of the Cold War. Not a peep from the Russian or U.S. governments. Then he's involved with many people with dubious credentials - the White Russian community, the Paines, and so on. I mean you have to ask yourself - what are the odds of this happening to a low-level ex-Marine? But that's the problem. No one ever seems to ask that because they're too wrapped up in their own theories. I mean think about it - George DeM, Ruth Paine, and all of the others listed in that PDF I posted earlier. It goes beyond any reasonable and rational thought for one man to get to know *that many* people tied together into that WR community, as well as someone like the Paines who had CIA connections. As a comparison, think of Tim McVeigh, who I often like to compare with Oswald. He knew that guy out on his farm to help him build the bomb. I think he knew one other person in the white supremacist movement, but he really and truly was a loner, the same type of "loner" the WC has always tried to make LHO out to be. But to have the connections Oswald had - he even knew a person who just so happened to be Ruby's neighbor, for god's sake - it just flies in the face of real-world reality. Only people with government connections could have pulled this off as well as the cover-up. We should all know that if the government really and truly was vigorously pursuing the truth of this case, they would have flushed these people out immediately. But everyone had their marching orders the minute Kennedy was pronounced dead and the K memo pretty much shows what those marching orders were going to be. Now compare this with your theory - the only thing I'll give you about your theory is yes, there were a lot of people, more than we will ever know, who hated Kennedy with a passion, just like there are people today who hate Trump and hated Obama. But there's no proof that Oswald hated Kennedy and his actions completely fly in the face of your theory of being mixed up with Ed Walker. As I said, read the PDF and the long laundry list of White Russians he was involved in and the actions they took - Paine and others streering him around to keep him employed and other things and so on. Meanwhile, there was NO plot to kill John Kennedy in 1960. It's silly to think that and the reason is simple - the people who were really running the government had every reason to believe he'd "collapse" and do their bidding when they wanted him to. Like at the BOP and later during the CMC. But they found out he was NOT going to do what they wanted him to do. And then his AU speech about reaching out to Russia and secretly with Cuba was, IMO, the last straw for them. Dulles, even after being fired, was running xxxx from the Farm so is it any surprise that the fox was guarding the hen house when the WC was started? In my mind, that was the ultimate betrayal to bring him back to the WC and I also think it's one of the most revealing moments as well in this whole mess. And what was Dulles' quote about JFK after his death? "That Kennedy fellow really thought he was going to run the government." And I can't emphasize enough what Oswald said in the hallway, his little short and sweet impromptu statement, with no fillers, no scribbled or dubious notes by police officers, but his actual words. "The only reason I'm here is because I lived in Russia. No sir I did not shoot the president. I'm a patsy." A word that, to be honest, speaks volumes not only because of its meaning but because how could a low-level "nobody" even know the meaning of that word? As a comparison, do you think Lovelady or Frazier or any of the other blue collars he worked with - or even my Dad who also worked on the shipping docks 1,000 miles a way from Dallas - would even know the meaning of that word? And then just take that word and tie it all together with the above, the W Russian people he was tangled up with, the handing out of leaflets in NO, his TV interview in NO (you can almost see his slight smile as he's telling his beliefs in that interview), and so on.

Tracy - sworn testimony... Oh wow, so because someone put their hand on a book written by men and they speak words that it makes it official and real? I guess you have a lot of faith in people, Tracy, that no one would lie just because they do this. Didn't a certain *president* do the exact same thing and then in sworn testimony lie that he never had sexual relations "...with that woman?" I mean it was extremely clever of him to do this, to just say two different words to make it appear that he didn't do it. But we all know he did (and we all know he confessed to it years later). According to your logic, you make it sound as if *every single person who testified* for the WC got it 100% truthfully right. Pshhh. Really? And for those who continue to think Oswald beat his wife, I'm putting this here: http://www.blackopradio.com/pdf/Oswald in the USSR - They All Lied.pdf But of course, once people like Sandy Larsen get hooked on a feeling like he often does on this forum, he won't say a word about what the above insightful article says. He and others will just keep steamrolling their own thoughts with endless and mindless WC testimony quotes that keep dragging on and on and on. That's one of things I hate about this forum - instead of analyzing things and then writing it out, people just post 30-paragraph long clips of the testimony as if it's all 100% truthful testimony or showing no analysis of it.

JIM - Yes, and the reason she said her "son" was a government agent was probably to play the role of a spy catcher. People in American Intel circles who knew or suspected LHO was a low-level spy would hear her words and quite possibly try to contact her. She could then identify these helpful contacts to her handlers so they could be silenced in one way or another. At any rate, her testimony would provide a reason to people who knew about the Oswald project to come forward and be identified. Whew, I don't know about that, Jim. All of these people were blue-collar middle class folks. As a Marine, Oswald somehow scored high in perhaps intelligence so they trained him to speak Russian, they sent him over there - supposedly to flush out a mole there - and then he comes back. He remained low-level, then in '63, you see him groomed for 11/22 - he declares himself a Marxist, hands out leaflets in NO, gets into a fight and then is interviewed on TV (a perfect way to show he's a scary "Communist" five months later), he's steered into his job at the book building, and you now have your perfect fall guy, beautifully laid. But all of this "his mom was part of it" is just too far-fetched and implausible.

Paul Trejo has this crazy theory - and he continues to push it to sell his books - that Ed Walker planned the murder with Oswald. So therefore to keep this crazy house of cards theory propped up, he's going to post stuff that's negative to Oswald, that he beat his wife. But watch Mad Men season 4, episode 3 and you'll see the assassination weekend unfold. Yes, it's a fictional show but they use actual TV footage to tell the story. And the tour de force clip is the little one shot in the hall way of the Dallas police station. It's all you need to know about Trejo's silly theory.

Oh come on. How could anyone think this.

I just don't buy this, Jim. She's short, she's tall, she's stocky, she's thin, she smiles, she doesn't, her eyebrows are arched, then they're not. It's just way too far fetched for me. I think, too you give the government way too much credit to think that they had things like this going on. That's not to say they did not have look a likes to basically mislead people. But to have a legend within a legend for Oswald - even down to his mother - it just seems way too implausible. Oswald was already a low-level agent the way they sent him over to Russia and let him come right back in with nary a peep from the government. Then they steered him around here and there until they found another role for him to play as patsy. But I think it' ridiculous for you to think they'd go all the way back to the early 50's to even create a legend for his mother too.

I've always liked that photo of him looking up and taken in Seattle because it shows his lazy eye. My daughter has a lazy eye too but I always tell her it adds character to her looks and, after all, "President Kennedy had a lazy eye too."

Nothing is happening in the film, Sandy. Nor any of them. As usual, you've long fallen into the rabbit hole, are still enjoying the fall, and your analytical capability, or lack therof, prevent you from having the mental temerity to grab the walls of the hole to stop the fall and to climb out.

Jim, thanks for posting this review. It hits many points I personally have always believed in, one being how the guy from LIFE was actually trying to say that Kennedy turned all the way around to take the throat shot. Ridiculous. And I'm putting this here regarding the ridiculous jet effect nonsense. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7Hr9Lrku-CxU0V1ck1GZFN6TWM

No one even knew about Walker until Oswald was dead. Oswald knew the photos were fake and said so, just like he said he was a patsy as he walking through the hall. He knew he was being framed for everything.