John Butler

The Warren Commission thought this information on Shelley and Lovelady was so important they classified it as Top Secret just like they did other things they thought folks shouldn't know about such as Hill Exhibit #5. I would guess this Top Secret classification would be forever. But, that didn't happen. and, the classification was cancelled some 3 years later.

One last comment. My id photo has multiple light sources. The photo was taken in a restaurant in Savannah, GA several years ago. Lights over head in different places. A strong light from the windows at the front of the restaurant. Multiple light sources = multiple shadow directions.

Your shadows are consistent. They move away from the light source. That is what shadows do. Once again in the simplest part of the argument. The step shadows move from the left side of the photo towards the right. The shadow of the Oswald figure moves in a different direction. It moves from the right side of the photo to the left side of the photo. This gives you two light sources (suns) in the photo. It is a clear fraud. None of your warped reasoning is going to convince me otherwise. You are wasting your time and mine.

Numpty, Why should I let you know anything or even speak? With your closed mind it would be the same as going out and talking to the trees or wind. Discussing anything with people like you is a useless endeavor. So, don't expect any further replies.

Numpty, "Somehow I find a difference between your posts and those of John Butler ! " Shouldn't have sent a guy a message saying he has zero intelligence. It will come back to you. There is supposed to be a difference and will continue to be.

Numpty? Is that like a guy with zero intelligence? Should we address Francois as Numpty Francois from now on so that no mistake is made about his character. Please tell me more. What does numpty mean?

Ray, You are just adding to the nonsense of Chris'. You fellows need to get a life and stop trolling with disinformation. There is not enough data to scientifically rationalize what happens in 2001 and 2002 to what happened in 1961, 1962, and particularly to the single year 1963. When I first entered the forum a few years back I posted the notion that in a photo, I don't really remember whether it was a Bond, a Bothun, or a Altgens photo, on the different directions the shadows of people going up the Grassy Knoll. There were several different directions. I was told that the shadows went in different directions because the people were going up the hill. Unbelievable. It was a moron response. Sounds like the same thing below. Shadows change their directions simply because they fall on different surfaces. Give me a break! I'll pay attention to such foolishness when you can provide me with a reputable scientific source saying something like that. Provide a source from a scientist, preferably one in optical physics. "ALL THE DIFFERENT DIRECTION ARE EXPLAINED BY THE FACT THAT SOME SHADOWS FALL ON A SOUTH FACING SURFACE, OTHERS ON A WEST FACING SURFACE. STILL OTHERS FALL ON A HORIZONTAL SURFACE LIKE THE GROUND AND OTHERS ON A VERTICAL SURFACE. SOME THAT FALL ON A WEST FACING VERTICAL SURFACE LIKE THE POST OR HIS PHILTRUM, OTHERS ON A SOUTH FACING VERTICAL SURFACE. OTHERS APPEAR TO BE MOVING LEFT TO RIGHT IN THE 2D IMAGE BUT ARE ACTUALLY MOVING WEST TO EAST. WHEN YOU CONSIDER THESE VARIABLES ALL THE SHADOWS MAKE SENSE. I THINK WE HAVE TO DISCOUNT JACK WHITES OBSERVATION ABOUT THE BLOOMING SEASON IN TEXAS. I MENTIONED BEFORE THAT IF YOU GO INTO GOOGLE EARTH AND USE THE HISTORY DATE/TIME SLIDER YOU WILL FIND YEARS WHEN 214 NEELY ST WAS FULL BLOOMED IN FEBRUARY AND OTHER YEARS WHEN IT WAS BARON IN MARCH. THAT IS FACTUAL INFO THAT PROVES WE CANNOT RELY ON THE LOOK OF THE PHOTO TO DETERMINE THE DATE."

I wasn't going to post here again since I thought this thread would die after Bristow's gobbledygook response to my last post. Let the readers decide has always been my motivation to such nonsense. But, then he comes up with this. What kind of disinformation nonsense are we expected to believe here? Does whatever happened in 2001 and 2002 have anything to do with what happened in the Spring of 1963? There is no way to generalize that based on the information given. If you remember during the 1970's we were in a global cooling era and a new Ice Age was soon to begin. Then we were in a global warming era during the 1990s until the present if some are to be believed. According to some we have 12 years to live as life on earth dies from climate change. And, to others the earth has been cooling since 2006 when people begin to be reported as freezing to death in China. This is the time when cold record temperatures on all of the continents were beginning to be being set. You figure it out. It is my opinion you can not link current weather patterns or early 2000s weather patterns to the 1960s on such a minute scale for prediction of the weather in the spring of 1963. I take Jack White at his word about how things were in Dallas during the springs of his life time. He said March is not the blooming month. April is. I agree for the year 1969 for the time I was in Texas. OBTW, I think more than a 1963 shrub should be water boarded. There are other things around in 63 that should be included.

The Backyard Photos 133-A and 133-B were successful in framing the Patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald, in the mind of the public as the lone assassin of President Kennedy. The negatives of the photos that came to be known as 133-A and 133-B were found at the home of Ruth Paine on 11-23-63. It is claimed that Oswald was shown one of these the night before they were found. The FBI had these photos and others developed the night of the assassination on 11-22-63 according to developers Mr. Robert Hester and Mrs. Hester. From the McAdams site, the official version: Marina Oswald was later questioned by the FBI about photographs. She said that she had taken them in the backyard of the Oswald residence on Neeley Street in Dallas. (129) She gave, however, different versions of when the pictures were taken. She first told the FBI it was in late February or early March 1963. (130) Her testimony to the Warren Commission reflected the same thing. (131) In an FBI interview made after her initial appearance before the Warren, however, she said that the first time she saw the rifle was toward the end of March; she recalled having taken the photographs 7 to 10 days thereafter, in late March or early April.(132) Other evidence available to The Warren Commission supports her later version. A rifle and a revolver were shipped to Oswald from different mail order houses on March 20. (133) The left-wing newspapers Oswald is holding is dated March 11 and March 24 and were mailed on March 7 and March 21, respectively, both by second-class mail. According to postal authorities, both newspapers would have arrived in Dallas by March 28. (134) In addition, Marina claimed she remembered taking the photographs on a Sunday, about 2 weeks before Oswald allegedly shot at Gen. Edwin Walker on April 10. (135) From this information, the Commission deduced the likely date on which the photographs were taken to be Sunday, March 31, 1963. (136) The two photographs in question 133-A and the 1967 CBS Reproduction are said to be made on the same day 4 years apart. Official documentation supports these two dates. According to the official version both photos are not composite (or fake) photos and are authentic. Various government agencies, the Warren Commission and the HSCA, after exhaustive studies have concluded the photos, 133-A and 133-B are authentic. However, an examination of 133-A and the 1967 CBS reproduction gives a lie to the official story for both photos. There are many ways to determine these photos as false. This discussion is based on shadows and foliage. Shadows for determining the time of day or inability to do so. And, foliage to determine the season in both photos. There are red arrows and numbers marking the directions of the shadows shown. There is the letter F indicating foliage in the photos. These photos capture a single moment in time and show a single light source, the sun. They should capture a consistent shadow pattern based on the position of the sun when the photo was taken. They do not. The shadow patterns indicate different times in the photos indicating they are composite. The foliage indicates a different time of the year in the different photos. They supposedly were taken on the same day, March 31, in 1963 and 1967. The foliage is different. In photo 133-A there are 5 numbered groups of shadows as versus 6 in the CBS Reproduction. This discussion will focus mainly on the photo 133-A and switch to 1967 to note differences. Shadow group 1: In the 133-A photo this group of numbered red arrows is pretty much the same as the CBS reproduction. The step shadows move from left to right for the No. 1s. Doing some in both photos indicates a similar time of the day. The time is about 9:00 to 10:00. Shadow group 2: Is problematic for me. The steps shadows indicated by 2s move in a direction different from the 1s. The 2 shadows move down from the right to the left. Shadow group 3: These shadows are from the nose and neck of the figure. And, there is a similar shadow under the eave of the structure in the back ground. These are from a sun directly overhead at about noon or 12:00. The shadow moves in a downward direction. They are the same as in the CBS reproduction. This is a different shadow direction and the first sign that something is not right. We now have two shadows directions going in different directions in both photos. We now have two light sources in the photos that match in photos 4 years different in age. This is a sign of composite reconstruction. Both are now fakes. Shadow group 4 in the 1967 CBS repro: This shadow group changes since there is no shadow in the same area in the 1963 133-A photo. I originally thought is was a power line in the CBS 1967 photo. I have now come to believe the shadow is from a limb directly above. That limb had not yet grown to that length in 1963. Shadow group 4 in 133-A. Are shadows that move from the right side of the photo towards the left. The shadows are the shadow of the human figure, the shadow of the shrub, and a shadow on the fence. The sun is high in the sky and moved from the noon position to about 1:00-2:00. We now have a 3rd group of matching shadows that gives one 3 light sources in the photos. 3 suns portrayed in a single instance. Shadow group 5 in 133-A (6 in the CBS 1967 repro): It is apparent these shadows are moving from right to left. They are supposed to be post shadows outside of the scene. They are at about 4:00-5:00. They are so out of tune with the rest of the picture they are extremely noticeable. We now have 5 groups of shadows showing 5 different times in the two photos. In both 133-A and the CBS Reproduction there are the letters F which call attention the foliage one can see in various areas in the two photos. If you look at the foliage near the steps in 133-A you can see that the foliage is larger and more robust than the foliage in the CBS reproduction. If you look at the shrub in 133-A that foliage is larger and in bloom than the CBS photo. The shrub in the foliage of the CBS reproduction is leafless and is shorter than the shrub in 133-A. This tells one that sometime between 1963 and 1967 the shrubs and trees in the back yard were trimmed and pruned. The difference in the foliage / non-foliage tells us that the seasons are different or that the photos were taken on the cusp of a changing of a spring season’s cold weather/ warmer weather cycle. Recall back to the official story. Both were taken on March 31 four years apart according to the authorities. Jack White, a life-long native of Dallas, said that the vegetation did not emerge in March but, did so in mid-April. According to the shadows these photos were taken around the Vernal Equinox or afterward. 133-A could represent a warm year. But, if one looks closely at the leaves above Oswald’s head in both photos 133-A represents a warmer time and the CBS reproduction represents a colder time. 133-A could represent a time of mid-April or its corresponding time for light shadows being the same in the fall near the Autumnal Equinox. The real point of this has been and will always be that the BYPs are composites and therefore fake. You can argue this or that about elevations, azimuths, angles of incidence, converging shadows, etc. You cannot escape the fact that there are at least 5 different shadow patterns indicating 5 different times captured in a single moment for both photos. They are composites and fakes. The photos 133-A and the 1967 CBS Reproduction captures a single moment in time when there were 5 suns in the sky in Dallas. They did a great job of framing Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin of President Kennedy.

Here's something I thought was funny and perhaps a bit cool on a google search when doing research on shadow times.

There are 6 sets of shadows in the CBS March 31, 1967 reproduction photo. They are marked by arrows and numbers. Shadows are made from a light source projecting light onto an opague object. This casts a shadow of the same shape as the object in the direction the light source is shining. In this single moment captured by this photo there should be one light source which is the sun in the sky since the scene is outside. The red arrows and numbers show different groups of related shadows moving in the same direction. Shadow group 1: These are the step shadows and they move in direction from picture left to the right. This is a morning shadow of about 9:00 to 10:00. They appear to be moving in a related direction. Shadow group 2: The shadows here are strange for step shadows. They move in an opposite direction from the other shadows. They move down and to the right. There is probably a natural explanation for the direction. If natural the would be about the same time I would guess. Shadow group 3: These shadows are from the nose and neck of the figure. And, there is a similar shadow under the eave of the structure in the back ground. These are from a sun directly overhead at about noon or 12:00. The shadow moves in a downward direction. Shadow group 4: Is one shadow that moves from left to right in a flatter angle than the step shadows. This shadow appears to be from a power line and somewhat problematic to assign a numerical value and time. Shadow group 5: Are shadows that move from the right side of the photo towards the left. The shadows are the shadow of the human figure, the shadow of the shrub, and a shadow on the fence. The sun is high in the sky and moved from the noon position to about 1:00-2:00. Shadow group 6: It is apparent these shadows are moving from right to left. They are supposed to be post shadows outside of the scene. They are at about 4:00-5:00. They are so out of tune with the rest of the picture they are extremely noticeable. There are 6 different shadows going in 6 different directions. 5 directions if you consider 1?-4? as the same direction. This gives us 6 different light sources or 6 suns in the sky at the same time. Or, 5 directions if 1? – 4? are the same. Which one would you pick to determine the time of the day much less the season? 5 or 6 light sources, the sun, tells one that this photo is a composite photo made at different times of the day. The season is still determined by the condition of the shrub and the vegetation in the photo. Jack White said he was a life-long resident of Dallas. In March there is no foliage or blooming. That occurs in the middle of April. The Warren Commission determined the date of the BYPs to be March 31, 1963. They did this based on Marina Oswald and scientific measures. One can imagine an early bloom at about March 31 to April 15 to account for the foliage on the shrub in the BYPs. One can not do that for the shrub in the CBS 1967 reproduction. There is no foliage on the shrub indicating a time of pre-April in the spring. Regardless of this or that argument the different times in the photo indicate a composite photo. This would be a must to produce if you wanted to get close in appearance to the original BYPs. The original BYPs are composites also.

It is insane trying to make sense out of the shadows in the CBS reproduction. You can't tell what time of the day it is or what season by using shadows. The only clue to the season is the bare shrub and the documentation that says the photo was made on March 31, 1967. It can't be done with the directions of shadows as portrayed below by the red arrows. I darkened the contrast slightly so the shadows were more pronounced. Can you give me a short, concise explanation for this cluster f**k of shadows? Please excuse Clint Eastwood for introducing the term.

Well Ray, I should say I'm sorry by saying you have "crappy ideas". I should have chosen something else to say other than "crappy ideas". "Crappy ideas" is inappropriate language for this forum. I should have said something like strange ideas rather than "crappy ideas". Instead of "crappy ideas" I should have said weird ideas. You will forgive me for the inappropriate use of "crappy ideas"?

Sorry Ray. I have not hitched my wagon to the wrong star. Josephs is probably highly offended by the idea of any association with me. You probably need to apologize to him. If you will recall you and I have had this argument before on several occasions before Josephs took you to task. Ditto Josephs. I don't care for the man at all. But, you have to give him his due respect when he is right. You are wrong and wrong headed to continue this argument in the face of the truth.

Ray. I'll have to admit you are one crafty old dude. You have managed to side track this topic twice and as you have done with others with your crappy ideas. It's time to get back onto the Krome topic of the timing of the BYPs. Krome notice there was a seasonality difference in 133-A, allegedly taken in March, and the 1967 CBS reproduction which is documented to March 31, 1967. The second, the 1967 photo, has cold weather depredation of foliage while the 1963 133-A shrub has foliage. What is you opinion of the timing of the BYPs or do you have no interest in that?

Ray, You refuse to understand this simple diagram by offering "facts" to dispute it. Your argument goes a long ways toward explaining some of our arguments in the past. At one point I accused you of being a secret Lone Gunner. And, you denied this. I took your word for that at the time. But, that point keeps popping up from time to time. Sorry. Sorry, Michael. Willfully ignorant is another way of saying he is a xxxx. Everyone knows what quad-x is and covers over. Oh? Didn't you tell me to shut up? Do you fellas have another agenda other than legitimate jfk research? I don't know of anyone other than you two that would argue against the above information of Josephs as being inaccurate. The parallel lines do not converge or touch. The third cactus shadow may appear to but, magnify and you will see the lines come to a vanishing point without convergence which you have defined as touching.

Sorry, Mr. Cross, I don't take advice from folks who don't know what they are talking about. Improper use of perspective allows parallel lines to touch in art work. Parallel lines should vanish into a vanishing point and not touch. Pay more attention to what David Josephs said. I guess I have to live with being willfully ignorant and I should shut up as told. No. No. Mr. Cross. Would you deny me basic civil rights while impugning my character in an ad hominem attack? According to Ray I am a xxxx, another ad hominem attack. Where is Michael Clark while you folk are disparaging my character. He once warned me not to speak of your mental health and rightfully so. Where is he now when you, Michael Cross and Ray Mitcham, take away my civil rights and abuse my character?

Hmmm? Always the same nonsense. You should have posted again your lack of understanding about the word "emergence". I think I explained that to you in the last post. If that didn't do. Then, think of it as emerging out from under a bridge to exact your toll by spewing despite. As far as Josephs goes, I don't care for his personality or behavior of personal attacks. But, when he is right he is right. And, do as he advises don't paint me with the same brush as him. As far a artists go, Michael, perspective and its determination go much further into the past than the 1400s. Bad artists who use the improper use of perspective generally vanish from the scene. That is the way it is today and it was in the past.

I don't believe Ray and Michael want to understand simple science. It doesn't fit their game. Their focus is to harass by asking an endless series of questions they and they alone consider appropriate. Ray has picked me as a focus of his trolling efforts from time to time. Eventually, I just don't respond and he goes away until the next time. He thinks he is correcting my lies and false information. Admittedly, I make mistakes. But, I always stand by the corrections and admit when I am wrong. I don't give up on fanciful theories just because others call them such. There is usually some evidence supporting whatever I say. It may not be suitable to others. From time to time the evidence is weak or insufficient. But, still evidence pointing out something that should be looked at. Inexplicable things happening near the borders of the paradigm are often the most interesting. Peripheral events some times when understood better open up new insights in to what actually happened. I use the BYPs as an example. Tony Krome has added something new about the BYPs by looking at them through a different lens. Ray. Find something to talk about and post a research thread and see how many people pay attention to you. If you join in on another thread try to be helpful rather than carping on your weird ideas.

Thank you Sandy Larsen for that Washington Post link. That restores the feeling that there are some in the American educational system willing stand up and do the right thing for students. Cursive writing is to valuable to abandon for experimentation. The reason your third grader has not been taught yet is you have to have someone able to teach cursive writing. It may take a while to re-train teachers.

Ditto!

Attempting, but no. That just prolongs the emergence of said individuals.

Rich, Cursive writing, once learned, is a faster, easier way to communicate by writing. The problem is reading what those who do not practice writing correctly, such as young students, write. As a teacher you learn to deal with that. It has served for centuries and I see no reason to chance things. But, I am not in control.

Rich, Thanks for pointing that out. Here in the county in which I live and taught for nearly 30 years has done away with cursive writing about 2000 or just a few years later. I may be wrong but, I think most of the country has done the same. I am glad to hear that some people in some places have conserved the traditional way of doing things. At least those folks in those areas will still be able to read documents from the past and not lose the ability to know history first hand.

Thanks Jeff, Thanks for your help and assistance. We vary on a few things, one such as what Rich Pope pointed out above. I think we agree on much more and in overall have the same position, the BYPs are fraudulent and framed Lee Harvey Oswald in the public's mind. I want to especially thank Tony Krome and Chris Bristow. Tony for bringing up the topic and pointing out the real nature of the photos and for Chris clarifying what I call the Equinox Theory. The Equinox theory says that the BYPs were not taken in March, 1963 but in September, 1963 around the date of the Autumnal Equinox. Roscoe White joining the Dallas Police as a photographer in September is a good indication that Oswald was to be chosen as the Patsy, if that worked out on assassination day. The barren shrub in the March 31, 1967 CBS re-enactment says, that due to the same shrub being in bloom the BYPs, the BYPs were taken at another time rather than March. Jack White, I believe first brought this up, and has now been clarified. I really don't have anything else to say then perhaps this last round of analyzing the BYPs has brought up new and important information on the photos. Perhaps, someone in the future will bring up something that we all have missed. That is what Tony and Chris have done.