John Butler

Tony, I agree. The problem is in the time before Craig tries to cross Elm to apprehend the suspicious character later Craig identifies as Oswald. Someone was directing traffic for about a minute possibly rwo in the intersection after the shooting. Barrett is at the TSBD door at 2 1/2 minutes according to his story. He says he was doing other things before that. The two Smith boys are at the Grassy Knoll area. My work on the motorcade says that they were released onto Elm in groups from Houston Street at varying short periods of time. After the Camera Cars were released the other parts of the motorcade were less important and whoever was directing traffic also abandoned the intersection. Was it Barrett or someone else? Altgens 5, 6 and Zapruder show only one policeman but, in scenes that suggest they are not the same person. If I had to guess I woud say Joe Marshall. There is the mystery. There is no Edgar Smith. Welcome Barrett is not seen but, is probably on the NW corner of Elm and Houston. Jack White said years ago that the people seen in the intersection of Elm and Houston are not the same in the Zapruder film and Altgens 5 are not the same. I would also say Altgens 6. I am typing one finger on an Ipad. Tomorrow i will add some visuals on the one officer seen in Altgens 5, 6, and Zapruder.

Neat Bart, The info you are supplying is getting better and better. It appears to be another check mark in the column of a very long list of events screaming reasonable doubt. If a lawyer could not have gotten Oswald off then he would be working for the other side as was Spence in that rigged show trial featuring Bugilosi.

"Couch-Darnell films in front of the TSBD 48 seconds or longer after the first shot. After the Camera Cars go through other folks in the parade are held up. Implying Barnett is still directing traffic." Whether you agree with 48 seconds or not someone has to be directing traffic at that time. Supposedly, Barnett deserted his post, the same as the two Smith policemen who went to the Grassy Knoll. Barnett went north on Houston Street along side the TSBD. He said he took up a post where he could see both the backside (north face) and the fire escape. Once again who was directing traffic. Who did this? 1. Held up the Mayor's Car? Mrs Earle Cabell said they came to a complete stop. How long were they there? Not long by my guess. 2. Who stopped the Camera Cars and kept them from proceeding down Elm for at least 30 seconds (I think longer)? 3. Who stopped and supervised the rest of the motorcade once the Camera Cars were released. 4. Who kept traffic from East Elm proceeding west? Who kept traffic from North Houston from proceeding south? The Dallas Police force along with Dallas County Sheriff's Office were supposedly the most corrupt police forces in the country. If that is so then who can you believe amongst the various policeman and their stories? Something is not right about Officer Barnett's stories. Maybe, we have another real live Dealey Plaza mystery to the dozens, maybe hundreds of others.

I've been through this argument on several occasions and simply don't want to repeat myself. 25 seconds is on the opening of one of the copies of the Couch-D film (includes Darnell because lots of folks say so). A fair estimate by a fellow forum member is 30 seconds. I can cut my estimate down closer to 30 seconds. Although, I prefer the longer estimate based on a 38 second frame in Weigman showing Camera Car #3 still turning. The first 3 seconds of the Couch-D film are filmed at angle showing the vehicle is still turning. Jim Hargroves is right on a few seconds timing. The question to ask (even though this is off topic) is why didn't they film when they were on Houston Street waiting to make the turn? Another might be where is the film from Camera Car 1 & 2? The opening 3 seconds of Couch-D has a policeman running for the Grassy Knoll. That might be one of the Smiths but, probably not Barnett. He supposedly went the other way. Who is directing traffic at this time?

Jim, Baker did not make it to the building in 15 seconds. If the motorbike cop see in Couch-Darnell is Baker that sequence is 48 or more seconds after the shooting. 8 seconds for the shooting. 3 to 5 seconds for Wiegman to get to the intersection from Houston. 38 seconds into his film he shows Camera Car 3 turning into intersection. Camera Car 3 has Couch and Darnell in it. They film as the go past the TSBD.

According to many the boy may not have been there. Others consider Worrell an unreliable witness. He may be one of the mysterious deaths after the assassination. The only policeman availabe to stop motorcade traffic was Barnett. The other two cops went to the Grassy Knoll. Couch-Darnell films in front of the TSBD 48 seconds or longer after the first shot. After the Camera Cars go through other folks in the parade are held up. Implying Barnett is still directing traffic. Richard Carr says the man in the brown coat left the back of the building seconds after the shots. If so not likely to be anyone on the 6th floor. According to the various stories no one is watching the east side 2 1/2 to 3 minutes after the assassination. David Josephs could find no visual evidence for Worrell. Fire escape stairs can be lowered and raised.

Ron, Keep at it. You may catch on directly.

Tony, How long do you think it takes to circle the TSBD? Or, at least 3/4 of building? It is 100 ft per side. Is it enough time for someone to exit the 2nd floor 10 or 12 ft to Houston St. Where were the other two policemen assigned to the intersection? Who stopped the motorcade in the intersection? And released it in groups? Barnett was at the front entrance 2 1/2 minutes after the shooting? Who was watching the fire escape then? Is Officer Barnett believable? A big thanks for bringing up Officer Barnett. He is a treasure trove of things I am trying to prove about the assassination.

Part IV So, what would be the best use for an escape from the TSBD by the fire escape. Well, that would be one where you spent the least amount of time on the fire escape. You could combine this idea with the passenger elevator escape plan with apologies to the good folks harveyandlee.com for modifying their theory. Wiser heads than mine will decide whether there is any value in this idea. These two avenues of escape give the maximum concealment available in escaping the TSBD. How would this escape plan work? Well, it would require help in setting up this escape. Someone or more than one person at the TSBD would be needed to provide certain things to help with the escape plan. As far as establishing an entry into the passenger elevator shaft goes, this would not be a big problem. It could be planned for in advance. Someone could enter the TSBD at night after work and make an entrance into the shaft to get access to the 4th floor passenger elevator. All you would need is a skill saw, a pry bar, and a hammer. The skill saw, set to the right depth of cut, would make a cut into and through the 2 X 6 flooring over the wooden beam attached to the metal I beam. It would have been important to make sure the 2 X 6s were cut over the wooden beam supporting them. The 2 X 6 planking runs east and west. An opening cutting through 6 2 X 6 boards would allow a space of about 30 inches. That’s big enough for a person to go through. How long would it take to do this? About a minute or more for measuring the correct distance from the wall, for cutting the boards, and then about the same time to pry the cut 2 X 6 planks up off of the larger wooden beam. Less than 5 minutes. You probably would not need to make two cuts. One would do to pry up the cut 2 X 6s. This photo shows how easy that would be to do. There is a space of about 3 feet more or less between wooden beams that run north / south. This photo of the 6th floor SE corner was taken sometime after the assassination. It has a plywood floor lain to the east wall of the TSBD. This was not the case at the time of the assassination. This is the 6th floor but, it shows you what the 5th floor ceiling would look like around the elevator shaft. This preparation for entry into the passenger elevator shaft could be done before the assassination. The boards could have been left unnailed or nailed to the wooden beams. Book boxes would cover any thing that looked irregular. Entry into the elevator shaft would not be a problem. Someone on the janitorial staff or management would have to provide keys for the plan to work correctly. There would be an entry into the building at night for preparatory work. Perhaps, the night before the assassination would work. For the day of the assassination someone would need to provide a key for entry into the 2nd floor office of Ochus Campbell if the office was locked, and a key to the fire escape door. They could also provide a key for the escape hatch in the passenger elevator if that was necessary. It was necessary that Ochus Campbell be out of his office, say, eating lunch with Roy Truly. Would Roy invite him out for lunch? Sure. To clean up someone would be needed to replace the shaft opening boards and re-nail them to the wooden beam. And, once again place boxes on top of the area to avoid any irregular or suspicious appearance. This could be accomplished within the two minutes the Warren Commission estimated that someone could be in the Sniper’s Nest moving boxes. To recap the fire escape plan: Enter the passenger elevator shaft from the 6th floor. Preparation could be done prior to assassination day. Someone is needed to make sure the passenger elevator is on the 4th floor and will not move. Cutting off the electricity would do that nicely. Have a key for the elevator escape hatch if necessary. Make sure Ochus Campbell is out of his office on the second floor. Have a key to the office and the fire escape door in the second floor office of Ochus Campbell. Plant evidence. Leave the TSBD within just a few minutes after the assassination by avoiding the first floor. Be on Houston Street to be picked up in the Nash Rambler Stations Wagon and then pick up an Oswald on Elm Street.

Andrej, Any really hard and decisive evidence is hard to come by. Almost every thing I see is controversial. Sometimes, you are left to informed speculation to suggest what might have happened. I don't mind going out on a limb with certain ideas. I really don't like making mistakes which on occasion I do. However, I am encouraged by others making corrections. There are a lot of sharp people on the forum and they will not tolerate any nonsense when it comes up. That is encouraging. I value your opinion. Keep up the good work.

Hey Ron, I had posted on this list earlier and included jumping out a window. That was for humor just as rappelling etc. I guess you must have missed the line about descending through the list with increasing improbability. Sorry, I have to finish the notion with what a fire escape plan would look like. That is the more to come later. I have a question for you. Do you know anything about the fire escape at the TSBD. Particularly the one shown in the Executive Action clip 1?

Part II Let’s say the assassins had notification of when the assassination would occur, where it would occur and, the TSBD would be used as a firing platform. The sixth floor was chosen as the best place to shoot from for various reasons. You would stand the chance of not being identified by witnesses if you were far enough away from the site of the shooting. This is actually what happened. As assassins you were notified of your mission and then given the technical details on how to accomplish the mission. Of foremost interest to the assassins would be the ease of the shot and how to get away afterwards. You definitely would not want to be seen by anyone. This makes what happened in the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest a show play for witnesses. This would be to attract attention away from the real shooting teams. As assassins you would like to have help getting into the building and then after the assassination out of the building. You would like to have help with moving your assassination tools into and out of the building, except for planted evidence left behind. Could you get help from the TSBD people? There is some possibility of that. The TSBD may have been a nest of crooks and with various types of criminal activity going on there in 1963 and in previous years. Such information can be found in: “The Spider’s Web: The Texas School Book Depository and the Dallas Conspiracy By William Weston” If Mr. Weston is correct could you believe anything said by Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady? Roy Truly? Ochus Campbell? Just to name a few. Why Ochus Campbell? That will become apparent later. How elaborate an escape plan would the assassins need in order to evade detection and more importantly recognition by witnesses in and outside the TSBD? I would say whatever it would take to get the job done. Part III The fire escape plan avoids using any exits on the 1st floor. It uses the fire escape to leave the building on the 2nd floor. That is one floor above street level on Houston Street, about 10 or 12 feet above Houston Street. The time to exit the fire escape door and go down two flights of steps can be done in seconds. There would be less risk of being seen and identified on Houston Street then on the first floor of the TSBD by the passenger elevator and on the front steps leaving the building or, crossing the width of the TSBD to leave by the back doors. Outside on Houston and Elm Streets everyone’s attention would be focused on the events of the assassination and more than likely no one would be paying attention to the fire escape. Their attention would be on the crowds running toward the Grassy Knoll. Any photographers of the fire escape exit would have had their attention on the motorcade as it passed in front of the TSBD on the way down Elm Street toward the Triple Underpass. The Camera Car photographers did not film anything on Houston Street and only the front of the TSBD at a low level. Two photographers photographed the 6th floor windows within two minutes of the assassination. If the Camera Car photographers did photograph anything that material has not survived. As far as films such as Robert Hughes, Hughes has been edited. If it had anything on the fire escape then it would have been a simple matter to replace that side of the TSBD with imagery that did not have anything. The Tina Towner film has imagery of the fire escape as the presidential limousine rounds the corner and comes unto Elm Street. This doesn’t help since the escape would be after the assassination when no one was filming the east side of the TSBD. If you will go back to the 1st floor plan of the TSBD you will see that the fire escape is located in the middle set of windows on the east face of the building on Houston Street. There are 7 sets of two windows on the east face of the building. The middle set first window contains the door for the fire escape. There is no really good imagery of this fire escape before it was removed from the east face. For the first four floors to the TSBD, the fire escape exit was located in the office of the various bosses of the TSBD or the bosses of the various book company which happed to be on a particular floor. The floor plans available do not shown where the fire escape may be on the 5th, 6th, and 7th floors. But, an available photo shows that the fire escape, in the middle of the building, descends from the top of the building to the street. This is taken from the Executive Action film clip 1 and will give a fair idea what the fire escape looked like as far as doors and landings go. This is not the fire escape as shown in the first photo. This maybe a shot of the fire escape as it looked in 1973 rather than 1963. This appears to be more elaborate than the 1963 fire escape. At some point the fire escape was moved from the east side of the TSBD. Was that done in the period 1963-1973? Regardless, a fire escape was available for an escape plan from the TSBD. more to come later.

Part II Let’s say the assassins had notification of when the assassination would occur, where it would occur and, the TSBD would be used as a firing platform. The sixth floor was chosen as the best place to shoot from for various reasons. You would stand the chance of not being identified by witnesses if you were far enough away from the site of the shooting. This is actually what happened. As assassins you were notified of your mission and then given the technical details on how to accomplish the mission. Of foremost interest to the assassins would be the ease of the shot and how to get away afterwards. You definitely would not want to be seen by anyone. This makes what happened in the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest a show play for witnesses. This would be to attract attention away from the real shooting teams. As assassins you would like to have help getting into the building and then after the assassination out of the building. You would like to have help with moving your assassination tools into and out of the building, except for planted evidence left behind. Could you get help from the TSBD people? There is some possibility of that. The TSBD may have been a nest of crooks and with various types of criminal activity going on there in 1963 and in previous years. Such information can be found in: “The Spider’s Web: The Texas School Book Depository and the Dallas Conspiracy By William Weston” If Mr. Weston is correct could you believe anything said by Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady? Roy Truly? Ochus Campbell? Just to name a few. Why Ochus Campbell? That will become apparent later. How elaborate an escape plan would the assassins need in order to evade detection and more importantly recognition by witnesses in and outside the TSBD? I would say whatever it would take to get the job done.

Escape From The TSBD- The Fire Escape Plan There has been a lot of discussion on how assassins could escape from the TSBD after the assassination. Various plans have been suggested. Some are more plausible than others but, none seem to be really fit for all to agree. There were assassins in the TSBD on the day President Kennedy was assassinated. Everyone agrees that there was an assassin or, assassins in the TSBD on the 6th floor at the time of the assassination. Witnesses variably list one, two, or possibly a third seen in the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest window. Others were seen in other windows. These were professional assassins not, a lone nut gunman without a motive or, questionable motives. They would have an escape plan. But, how was that done is the question. There is an interesting statement that can be found at: http://jfkthelonegunmanmyth.blogspot.com/2013/01/roy-truly-truly-interesting-character_14.html “First, let’s keep one important point in mind. The assassination of the democratically elected President was carried out in the most heinously arrogant manner. The conspirators decided to assassinate the President in full public view and in broad daylight. Furthermore, the sniper in the 6th floor window of the TSBD had stuck the barrel of the rifle out of the window and did not use a silencer/suppressor to mask the sound of the shots. Now, the sound of the shots would have undoubtedly drawn the attention of many Police Officers and witnesses in Dealey Plaza towards the TSBD – which, of course, it did. The conspirators would surely have realised that many Police Officers could have almost immediately stormed into the TSBD and apprehended the assassin(s) on the 6th floor.” Keep this in mind as we go over the exits available to be used in an escape plan. These are: Doorways on the 1st floor of the TSBD The fire escape Repelling out a window or off the roof Helicopter escape from the roof As we descend through this list the escape routes become increasingly improbable. One of the 1st floor exits seem the best way to go for assassins to escape the building. There were numerous exits on the first floor. Here is a 1st floor plan for exits out of the building: Every face of the building has an exit point on the 1st floor. Any floor above the 1st floor, floors 2 through 7, has exits that will bring you down to the 1st floor except for one. That is the fire escape. It takes you outside and down to the Houston Street. Keeping in mind what was said on the jfkthelonegunmanmyth internet site, if you were an assassin would you want to exit the building on the 1st floor? The probability you would be seen by someone and more importantly remembered would be a risk to high to commit to for an escape route TSBD for professional assassins. This is a point of contention that can’t be resolved. I am choosing to decide against the 1st floor exit plans for the sake of this argument. It is not important whether you actually fired from the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest, the assassins were there and would be co-conspirators in need of an escape route just as if they were the real shooters. If you didn’t use the exits on the 1st floor or the fire escape then how would you escape from the building after the assassination?

Thanks Jim, I have been making to many mistakes lately. I'm going to take some time off and think about continuing with posting on the forum. Regardless, keep up the good work. You and John Armstrong are making a difference.

Go away Ray. I have no intention to responding to your bullying tactics other than this one message., Can't you see the Dal-Tex across the street. Open you eyes and look at something in reality for a change rather than the fantasies in your head. And, I really don't want to hear how you are out just to correct mistakes. Before you depart on such an endeavor clean your own house.

Cool. How do you explain this: 1901 building has arched windows on the east face. 1960s building doesn't. I guess the original building was restored in 1981.

This photo can't be the north wall. The north wall has only 3 windows widely spaced over 100 feet per floor. The TSBD is a square building with 100 feet per side. Here in this photo we see 3 windows in less than half, looks to be about 30-40 feet, the distance across the TSBD. I don't know which directions the floor boards, joists, and I-beams run but, they need to be rechecked. This shows the southeast corner of the TSBD on the 6th floor.

Jim, The escape through the elevator theory stands whether or not there is an elevator vent on the 6th floor. My notion is the vent goes out the 6th floor window. That way no fumes are vented into the building. I don't think government inspection would pass such a venting system Building codes and insurance would dictate that there would be a venting system and one that was done right. If not above the elevator shaft then where? John A. needs to take another look at directions in the floor joists and I-beams. There are only 5 arched windows on the south face of the building during the 1960s, not 10. That didn't come around until after 1981. Just above your post is 3 photos indicating the remodeling of the TSBD beginning in 1981. The extra 5 arched windows on the east face has no bearing on the discussion. The arched windows on the south face in the 1960s photo are the only ones at the time of the assassination. The photo is from the 6th floor museum and shows the south face of the building. The one that faces Elm Street.

The TSBD was remodeled in 1981-1986. The appearance of the east face changed from the 1960s appearance to the post-1981-86 appearance after the remodeling. Tony is correct for the post-1981 appearance. But, not for an earlier appearance. I hope these images are clear enough to see the differences pre and post modeling. Andrej, Someone needs to find the plans for the elevator shaft. I wouldn't know where to look. That would solve a lot of problems with its appearance and function. The shaft is shown on the 5th floor plans and no structures for a venting system shown on the 6th floor plans. There is just the one photo, where you don't see anything, to suggest a vent to the outside via the window. As I said earlier it could be a metallic cart for moving boxes. It doesn't appear so to me. But, I occasionally have to dine on crow due to my over enthusiasm and rushed responses. The pre-1981 version of the TSBD had only 5 arched windows on the southern face. The post 1981-86 version has 10 arched windows as shown in the right hand photo. 5 on the south face and now 5 on the east face. Any photo showing arched windows rather than rectangular is pre-1981. So, the interior photo that I posted earlier has to be pre-1981 and as advertised by the 6th floor museum showing the 6th floor in the 1960s.

It doesn't matter about floor joist directions being correct or not. There are only 5 arched windows in the entire TSBD. Those are on the south face of the TSBD at the 6th floor level. The south face that has the entrance on Elm Street. You see two of those 5 windows indicating without doubt this is the 6th floor.

Tony, The south face of the TSBD has arched windows except for the corner rectangular windows. The east and west faces have rectangular windows. The north face has a different look altogether. The red horiztontal line is based on the width of the elevator shaft as shown on the 5th floor plan. What bothers me about the photo, now that I look at it, the window appears to be strange with one part higher than the other. There seems to be a filing cabinet in front of a post? Strange? Anyway it is not connected to the low metallic, box like structure sitting in front of the window. If one wanted to make an argument one could say that is simply a cart that boxes of books were moved around in from place to place. I don't see it but, one could argue. However, the rounded or arched windows say that this is the southeast corner. This photo came from the 6th floor museum as the 6th floor. You could argue a different floor since they all look alike on the south face. That is you could argue the 5th or 6th floor. There were office spaces from the 4th on down. The 7th floor has a storage room in that location.

Jim, Yes, it is exactly above the elevator shaft. The elevator shaft is located at the second set of windows going north on the east face of TSBD. The elevator shaft is directly under the second set of windows but, does not cover the second set of windows completely. You can't see the Sniper's Nest windows because they are blocked by a post. But, you can see the corner of the building. This photo is from the 6th floor museum and described as in the 60s.

Andrej, This is the illustration of the passenger elevator which is new when the building was remodeled in 1961. If the elevator car reaches to a floor you still need extra space above it for its operation. That's why the shaft extends into the 5th floor but, not as an open elevator. This illustration has a drawing at the top to suggest a ventilation shaft. The harveyandlee people retained the option of a tampered floorboard entrance into the elevator shaft and suggested there might be a ventilation cover. I am suggesting that in the photo displayed above there might have actually been a ventilation cover that could be removed to access the elevator shaft on the 6th floor into the 5th floor and below shaft. I don't know what that might be if it is not a ventilation cover for venting air through the 6th floor 2nd set of windows on the east face. It does not look like boxes of books. Still, the actual plans for the 1961 passenger elevator shaft will solve the problem.