John Butler

This is more of a close up on the Johnson security vehicle from Altgens 6. It suggests that something was going on with this vehicle that needed adjusting. I don't know what? The vehicle is grossly distorted in appearance while no one else is. It is much larger in appearance than the vehicle in front of it. It is either photo editing or a magic camera. This is what the vehicle would look like normally or close to what it would look like. There maybe some slight differences in trim. Something must have been going on with the Johnson security vehicle. Here is frame 159 of the Zapruder film. Do you notice anything odd? The vehicle seems to be backing into the intersection. No! Wait! there is a front end to the vehicle. But, what about the top?

Ray, Keep on posting. Your posts will be seen by others but, not me. I just put you on an ignore list. I have been trying to ignore you trolling behavior for some time. I have not been successful because many of you moronic notions needed an answer. But, no more.

As a rifle instructor in the military in 1967 I can tell you this is what a high powered rifle sounds like. Only I believe louder because the sound in the video seems not as loud. As an assistant instructor (low man on the totem pole) I fired 400 rounds sometimes 800 rounds a day through a M-14 automatic rifle. Total is about 70 thousand or 80 thousand rounds that year. If you are within 40 feet of a high powered rifle sound you will not miss it. You may not know where it came from but, you will know the direction. 9 out of 11 witnesses I listed earlier gave a direction other than above them. Most indicated the sounds came from the west. To answer Tony's question is about 200 feet counting the distance upward (about 65 feet) to the 6th floor for the alleged shot. This is based on 100 foot side for the TSBD and about 40 feet from the lamppost to the Stemmons sign. It is an angle from the 6th floor to Elm Street and the limo. So, it is probably less. Or, that is my best guess.

This is undoubtedly the best display I have seen showing that Altgens 6 is not related to Zapruder frame 256. Once again the Stemmons sign was about 25 to 40 feet behind the presidential limousine. At best in the above the display the Stemmons sign is off to the right (picture left) and definitely not behind by 25 feet to 40 feet by as shown in Z frame 255. There is more that one proof that Altgens 6 is a fraud. I am reminded of this when you see no one casting the shadows of Jean Hill and Mary Moorman. Get any artist to look at the shadows and if honest they will tell you they appear to be painted. Tony's display also shows that the photo is a fake because it is a crop of a larger photo not a magnified telephoto shot. If it was a telephoto shot you could not connect the size of the crowd or other images of the background picture (of normal perspective) to the size of the crowd in the alleged telephoto Altgens 6. And, to a certain extent that is what we see in reverse. The size of the people in the crowd in the background photo is larger than the people in the Altgens crop photo. I read a really neat presentation as to why this is a cropped photo. It has to do with not seeing the upper floors of the TSBD and the Dal-Tex. In other words this is a cropped and reshot as an original film. You can see the shadows in this photo better. They are definitely artwork. Compare them to what others look like in other photos and frames taken that day. The Elsie Dorman film is a good place to look. Altgens had a magic camera with him that day. Notice that the motorbike cops and the vice presidential vehicle are undistorted by the distant "telephoto lens". But, the Johnson security vehicle is grossly distorted. Then directly behind the vehicle we see a young boy and the crowd that are undistorted. How can that happen without a magic camera or photo editing.

There is real doubt that anyone fired a round from the 6th loor Sniper’s Nest. People saw what they were supposed to see. A play or show of an assassin or assassins in the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest. I can't say there was not a shot from above the 5th floor on the 6th. But, I can say that 9 out of 11 witnesses closest to the shooting of the president said that shots came from some place other than the TSBD. All of these people were located within about 40 feet (this is about the width of the average American home) from the alleged shooting coming from the 6th floor. They would not be able to not hear rifle fire from directly above them, particularly a high powered rifle. There were people who stayed inside the TSBD to watch the Motorcade. This is what some said: Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St. Shots came from above. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston. Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that. Shots came from above. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman. He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left. That is shooting from Houston Street. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection. She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west. Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St. Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report. She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St. She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information. However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots. Reference: Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin. Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots. She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees. And, that would be in front of the TSBD. Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees.

If this was the shirt Oswald was wearing at the TSBD then it might help explain my version of Prayer Man. Oswald is said to have changed shirts (all of his clothing) when he arrived at his apartment and then went to the Texas Theater. If this is so, then he wasn't wearing the darker brown shirt he is alleged to be in the Doorway Man scene of Altgens 6. I believe Prayer Man was on Elm Street filming the motorcade as it went by. This is seen in the John Martin film. The following montage shows Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD and on Elm Street. The images are the same to me. The red shirt in John Martin could just be color distortion. What he has in his hands appears to be a camera, not a 6 1/2 ounce coke. Which is better seen in the last frame to the right. The problem with the camera is where did it and its film go? Camera rather than curtain rods.

Another Mitcham idiocy, Can you see the trees in the photos behind the little girl? Even in the blowup, supposedly a telephoto shot, the tree is still there. Why? Because it is behind the little girl. The Stemmons sign should be in view behind the presidential limousine and is not. It is not in front of the vehicle or off to the side. There is no camera angle or trick that can account for that.

Ray, This is the same dumb argument I have heard for nearly 4 years, from you and others. Since, I first brought this up. Your field of view is too narrow. There is no way you can compare Altgens 6 with Zapruder 255. Look and study what I presented. It hasn't changed. I you can't find a sign that is clearly somewhere around 25 to 40 feet behind the presidential limousine that what can you find? What can you find when Altgens is in the middle of the road filming toward the TSBD! In your case nothing. Your field of view is too narrow! If Robin Unger couldn't convince me of that you surely can't. What I showed indicates neither Altgens 6 or Zapruder are reliable. This will be the only time I respond to you. Your trolling efforts will go unnoticed. I really should look up how to keep from seeing your posts. This is really off Jim Hargroves topic and I suggest going back to that rather than debate something I've discussed many times before..

The Zapruder Film is a fraud. A fake. It really can't be used for much of anything. This has been debated many times before. Where was the presidential limousine in Altgens 6 as compares to the Zapruder Film. These two film frames from Zapruder show a unique fact. The Stemmons sign is behind the presidential limo in frame 238. In frame 255, which is the favored frame for comparison to Altgens 6, you can not see the Stemmons sign because it is behind the presidential limo. Can you find the Stemmons sign behind the presidential limo in Altgens 6. And, where is it in Altgens 6? Altgens is in the middle of the road taking this photo! Lone Gunners and a good many conspiracy theorists will not look at this argument. It violates all sense of meaningfulness for them. Robert Groden is a prime example. There are many on the forum who will respond bitterly to this unique presentation holding to the notion that the Zapruder Film is real, factual, and untainted by editing. Ronnie, the Pent-x, brings this argument back up. Why I don't know except he perhaps is one of the folks that fall into the above category. I won't use one of his favorite terms "horse carp".

Thanks Tony, I had missed or forgotten the last part of Clint Hill's statement. Maybe, it just didn''t sink in at the time. Clint is saying what one of my biases call for. That the Clint Hill / Jackie Kennedy scene actually occurred in front of the TSBD. And, those scenes were later transferred from the Zapruder Gap to where they are in the current version of the Zapruder film, past the Grassy Knoll. At no time or at no where in Clint's statement does he transfer the action away from the turn into the intersection. This is heresy to most conspiracy theorists. Maybe, Ronnie the xxxxx will comment again and tell me I don't have a credibility on this either. As far as Altgens 6, the limo is supposed to be past the Stemmons Freeway sign and not in front of the TSBD as it might appear in Altgens 6. That's another fraud. Paul is correct but for another reason. There is a frame in Towner I call the "hit X" frame that clearly show a shot or the effect of it in frames near. Paul, Harold Weisberg first noticed in 1967 that there appears to be shooters in the windows of the Dal-Tex. You can blow up Altgens 6 and see what appears to be a rifle and in other windows suspicious people there.

Paul, Mary Hollies made that statement in an interview at the 6th Floor Museum in Jan. 2011, that is 48 years later. She said she rode the bus with an Oswald every morning. He asked her out to communist meetings and strip bars. He said he would take her Russia. Some of the information provided is wild enough to suggest that Oswald was working her as an informant. Most people dismiss this interview out of hand. To a certain extant I do also. But, I keep having nagging thoughts about some of the things she said. Why would the 6th floor folks allow her to burn Bonnie Ray Williams who was a star witness for the FBI and the WC. What she said puts him on the 6th floor moments before the assassination. He then rides the elevator from the 6th floor to the 5th and locks the elevator to keep it from moving. Here is something I hadn't thought of at the time. Who sent the elevator to the 6th floor for Bonnie Ray to ride down. Did Bonnie Ray ride the elevator up with Oswald or was he already on the 6th floor? She definitely makes Bonnie Ray a co-conspirator. Why would the 6th Floor folks allow that if they had control of what she was saying?

There is nothing “Mc Adams” about this topic. Mc Adams thinking and mine are poles apart. It is not what I think here. It is what the witnesses are saying. This is about a large group of people saying something different from what is accepted wisdom. This notion is new. I do not believe anyone else has noticed what these witnesses are actually saying as a group. And, that is something that is hard to understand how these folks have been completely ignored for the last 55 years. Read the witness statements in the original. A reference is provided. If you do you will see this isnt lone nutter material.

Ron, I am not concerned by your ad hominem nonsense. According to you I have not had credibility for a long time. Get a beer and chill out. Or, read the piece.

Tony, It is not where I think shots hit. It is what the witnesses said. Tony Glover says that as the limo turns the corner onto Elm she sees the presidents head explode. Many of the witnesses inside the TSBD said they heard shots while the limo was hid by trees. So, it varies.

Mass Hysteria in Dealey Plaza As an example of this subject, this photo taken by Robert Croft shows the president’s party. It shows the people in the presidential limousine moments before the assassination. It is the calm, a tranquil moment before the storm. Is it a real photo by Croft, pristine and untampered with by others or, is it one made by cover-up specialists from the ground up substituting different imagery taken elsewhere to show a peaceful moment before the assassination starts. To the question is it real most people would answer with “yes, it is a real photo”. But, is it? According to over 50 witness statements this is manufactured evidence showing a reality that did not occur. Most JFK researchers over time have focused on the shooting in Dealey Plaza by asking where the shots came from, how many shots were there, and what was their sequence of occurrence. These are legitimate questions. However, these questions do not tell the whole story. They need to be supplemented by another if one wants to know and understand what really happened in Dealey Plaza. This question was avoided at all costs. The following is based on the supplementary question “where was the president when you heard shooting?” On November 22, 1963 in Dealey Plaza there were people who did not see what the majority of people saw that day or what they are purported to have said. They saw something different that if true would negate what the majority saw and reverse not only the official story, the Warren Commission conclusions, but most conspiracy theories based on shooting down by the Grassy Knoll. This is unacceptable to nearly all researchers. This minority view says that the major icons of the assassination such as the Abraham Zapruder film, James “Ike” Altgens photos 5, 6 and 7, Mary Moorman’s Polaroid are all false and tainted by photo editing. Other photos and films that support these major icons such as the Orville Nix film and the Marie Muchmore film must also be false and tampered with if they show similar things. Almost all of the visual record in Dealey Plaza was seized and changed to reflect the views of the assassination cover-up. There is a great deal of this record that has never seen daylight. It was seized and destroyed by the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, and the Dallas authorities. There are over 50 witnesses listed here who say that when the presidential party entered the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets they came under fire from assassins. The shooting continued in front of the TSBD. It is as if the missing frames of the Zapruder film, the Zapruder Gap, were deleted and moved to the area of the Grassy Knoll. And, that repositioned imagery was re-tasked to show the assassination occurring in front of the Grassy Knoll instead of the TSBD. This would be for the purpose of showing an assassination from the rear and based on the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest. Lee Harvey Oswald would be framed as the lone assassin. All evidence would be moved and adjusted to support that conclusion. One could say these witnesses must be delusional and did not see what they saw. What other conclusion can there be than one of mass illusion? They must have suffered from a mass hysteria introduced by backfires and echoes resounding through Dealey Plaza. The horror and trauma of the event must have induced an alternate reality. How could all those films and photos be tampered with? How could the majority of witnesses see something different and then these witnesses something different? How could the FBI and other authorities coerce and threaten witnesses to say what they wanted in new statements? Why would the FBI change witness statements? How could the FBI and Dallas authorities, in good consciousness as law enforcement officials, change witness statements to frame an individual of a murder charge? But, in a real sense, by reasonable doubt, this is what the minority witnesses are saying. I believe there is enough evidence here to suggest reasonable doubt and to rethink the way the Kennedy assassination occurred on 11-22-1963. From justia.com: “The United States Supreme Court in Victor v. Nebraska, 511 U.S. 1 (1994), described this standard as “such doubt as would give rise to a grave uncertainty, raised in your mind by reasons of the unsatisfactory character of the evidence or lack thereof . . . . What is required is not an absolute or mathematical certainty, but a moral certainty.” Witness Statements: Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston. Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman. He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left. That is shooting from Houston Street. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection. She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west. Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St. Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report. She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St. She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information. However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots. Reference: Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin. Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots. She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees. And, that would be in front of the TSBD. Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees. Geneva L. Hine- 4-7- 64 Warren Commission statements- “I saw the President’s car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.” The next car was the Secret Service vehicle which rode nearly on the bumper of the presidential limousine. This means the shooting occurred in the intersection. Betty Jean Thornton- 11-24-63 FBI report- She said she was standing on the street when she heard shots as the president passed by. They sounded like firecrackers. Danny Arce- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He said he was standing on the grass in front of the TSBD about 30 ft. from where the president was when shots rang out. He said something different in his in his 11-22-63 statement. He was standing on a corner across the street from 411 Elm Street. He said in a 11-22-63 statement at the Sheriff’s Office he was standing on the corner of Elm and Houston. He heard 3 shots ring out. Carl Jones- 3-18-64 FBI statement- He was sitting on the front steps. After the president passed by he heard 3 shots. Virginia Rackley- 11-25-63 FBI statement- She was standing across the street from the TSBD. As presidential limousine passed her location almost immediately she her 3 shots. She was standing in front of the building on the north side of Elm. Jane Berry -FBI statement of 11-25-63- she was located just west of the TSBD when the motorcade came by. Just as the car was passing by her she heard 3 shots. She thought the shots came from west of where she was standing. There is a slight change in her location in her 3-19-64 FBI statement. She said she was standing in front of the TSBD when the President’s vehicle passed by the building. She heard 3 shots and saw the President slump over. Linda Willis- Warren Commission- July 22, 1964- that she was standing in front of the TSBD when he motorcade came by. She initially said she heard shots there. Then, later she said she was standing across Elm Street from the Stemmons Freeway sign. There is where she heard shots and saw the head shot. She said she was directly across the street from the Stemmons sign when the first shot hit him. Tina Towner- in a YouTube video, Witnesses to the JFK assassination: Three Dallas Stories- LA Times by Brian van der Brug, she said things that indicate shooting occurred as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection and in front of the TSBD. The article said she stopped filming after the presidential limousine turned into the intersection. If that’s true then who filmed her film? Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Only 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded. James L. Simmons- Mark Lane interview- 3-28-66- a Union Terminal railroad worker who said he was standing on the Triple Underpass when the assassination occurred. He said he heard shots when the presidential limousine turned into the intersection of Elm and Houston. S. M. Holland- said much the same as Simmons to Mark Lane. Bill Newman- in a Dallas Sheriff’s Office statement made on 11-22-63 said he was standing just west of the concrete standard (the monument) at the corner of the TSBD when he heard shots as the presidential limousine came toward him. This means that the shooting occurred on Elm Street in front of the TSBD. Newman mentions the “garden” behind which is different than the concrete standard. Gayle Newman (on the north side of Elm Street with husband, near the Presidential limousine at the time of the shooting), November 22, 1963: “When President Kennedy’s car was about 10 feet from us, I heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker going off.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: CE2003: 24H218] J. W. Foster- The Warren Commission Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964. J. W. Foster was a Dallas Policeman stationed on the Triple Underpass during the assassination. He said in his testimony as the presidential limousine came onto Elm Street he heard a loud noise that sounded like a firecracker. Earl Brown- was a Dallas Police Officer assigned to duty on the Stemmons railroad overpass over the Stemmons Expressway service road. In his Warren Commission testimony of 4-7-64 he stated the presidential vehicle had made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. Pierce Allman- Elsie Dorman film- said it pretty much happened in front of him. He was standing on the SW corner of Elm and Houston. He was about 10 feet front the vehicle when shots were fired. Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97] George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765] Royce Skelton (on top of the triple overpass), November 22, 1963: “We saw the motorcade come around the corner and I heard something which I thought was fireworks.” [Sheriff’s Department affidavit: 19H496] Ruby Henderson (on the north-east corner of Elm and Houston Streets), December 6, 1963: “Mrs. Henderson said at the time the motorcade passed where she was standing, she heard what she initially thought was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CE2089: 24H524] Garland Slack- Dallas Sheriff 11 22 63- I was standing on Houston Street, just below the window to Sheriff Decker's office waiting for the parade. I was standing there when the President's car passed and just after they rounded the corner from Houston onto Elm Street, I heard a report and I knew at once it was a high-powered rifle shot. Clint Hill (Secret Service agent, on the follow-up car), March 9, 1964: “Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, I was viewing the area which looked like a park. There were people scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise to my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker.” [Warren Commission testimony: 2H138] John Martin, Jr. (on the south side of Elm Street, north of the reflecting pool), March 31, 1964: “A few seconds after the President had passed and was departing from his view, he heard a loud report and first thought that it was a firecracker ….” [FBI report: CD897] Carolyn Walther- The Warren Report Part 1 CBS Television (25th June, 1967)- The President passed us, and he was smiling, and everybody was waving. Then the last of the cars went by, and I heard the shot. I thought it was a firecracker. Arnold Rowland-Sheriff Office statement- 11-22-63- said as the presidential limousine turned west to head down Elm Street he heard a back fire. Ronald Fischer-Warren Commission 4-1-64- Hears a shot as the presidential limousine turns the corner unto Elm Street. Mrs. Peggy Hawkins CD897 (statement to FBI dated April 1, 1964): "Mrs. Hawkins said that the car containing the Presidential party had just passed in front of the building shortly after noon when she heard two or there shots fired in the near vicinity. Paul Landis- SA Landis’ version of the assassination he puts forward on the 27th and 30th of November, 1963- SA Landis said that the presidential limousine had just turned into the intersection of Houston and Elm Street and was just straightening from the turn in front of the TSBD when he heard the first shot. Warren Taylor (Secret Service agent, three cars back from the Presidential limousine), November 29, 1963: “Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible firecracker—the sound coming from my right rear. George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 22, 1963: “Just prior to the shooting I was seated in the rear of [the followup car] on the left side. As [the Presidential limousine] made the turn and proceeded a short distance I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear.” [Statement: 18H765] Jean Hill- Hill Exhibit # 5 in Warren Commission Hearings, XX, 158- Hill Exhibit # 5 places Hill and Moorman on the SW corner of Houston and Main Streets almost directly across from the SW corner of the TSBD. 11-23-63 FBI report- She said she was standing in the vicinity of the TSBD. James Worrell- Warren Commission- 3-10-64- But as they went by, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots. Jeanette E. Hooker- 1-8-64- estimated that the presidential limousine was almost to the R L Thornton sign when she heard 3 shots. Mary Ann Mitchell- FBI report January 18, 1964, WC deposition April 1, 1964. said she and her companion heard a shot as the presidential car passed the curb in front of the TSBD. T. E. Moore- FBI report 1-10-64- said when the president reached the R L Thornton sign he heard the first of 3 shots fired. Welcome Eugene Barrett- July 23, 1964- Mr. LIEBELER - Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No. 9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired; is that right? Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir. Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean- 11-24-63 FBI report- She was standing on the steps of the TSBD when the presidential limousine was passing by she heard a rifle shot. Ruth Dean-3-19-64 Warren Commission- She said she was standing on the steps of the TSBD as the motorcade passed by. She heard 3 shots and the president slumped. Curtis Freeman Bishop- 3-17-64 Warren Commission- He was standing on the Triple Underpass as the presidential limousine came into view started down Elm and past the TSBD he heard 3 shots. Ewell William Cowsert, FBI report 3-17-64- he was standing on the Elm Street viaduct with a group of fellow employees watching the motorcade with President JOHN F. KENNEDY. COWSERT advised that just as President KENNEDY's car passed the Texas School Book Depository building he heard two or three shots ring out and saw President KENNEDY slump Forward in his seat. L. R. Terry- Neither history.com or the McAdams witness list show any testimony for L. R. Terry. Marrs’ Crossfire does provide info on Terry on page 25, 2013 ed. Terry was near Euins and Brennan. He saw gun and a hand come out of the 6th floor window when the motorcade came by. He heard a shot. The motorcade stopped in front of the TSBD. There were two other witnesses besides Bonnie Ray Williams who said there was shooting on Main Street or Houston Street. Marie Muchmore- was standing on the corner of Houston and Main when the motorcade passed by she heard the first shot. Alan Smith- He claimed he saw the shooting close up while standing on Main Street. This witness list is biased toward when a witness first made a statement, preferably on 11-22-23. In my opinion the cover up story and its details had not been fully formulated at the time of the assassination. By the afternoon and evening of the 22nd the story as it should be was being disseminated to those in authority who would help with the cover up. The Baker/Truly story is a good example. Baker says one thing on the 22nd and Truly another thing on the 23rd. Truly’s story becomes Baker’s story later on. Many of the 11-22-63 witnesses were allowed to make honest statements without coercion or influence from the authorities. That certainly changed later that afternoon and after the 23rd. Still many witnesses maintained their version of what happened and reported as they saw it. There is an evolution of what some witnesses said on the first day to what they later said by March, 1964. This evolution moved witness statements to where they supported the official version. Some witnesses like Bonnie Ray Williams had to make four statements until they got the right story, the official story. I had posted this idea earlier but, did not provided documentation for the witnesses. This is an attempt to correct that and add to the Forum a significant record concerning the assassination of President Kennedy.

There were three Dallas policemen assigned to the intersection of Houston and Elm to direct and control traffic. They are: 1. Welcome Eugene Barrett 2. Joe Marshall Smith 3. Edgar Smith This frame from Tina Towner shows Welcome Barrett. Bart Kamp provided a better film frame and it is somewhere in the post on the fire escape plan. The Bell film shows what might be Barrett standing at the corner of the TSBD. I believe it is where he said he was but the WC interrogator confuses the issue. Here is that Bell frame for you to decide: As you can see the image quality is bad. I put two ? marks at another location that shows Barrett (maybe) and that location agrees with Tina Towner. Barrett may be the officer that curses that is noted. Roy Truly was not in the northern part of the intersection of Houston and Elm. Welcome Barrett may have been. If the Bell frame shows another policeman besides Barrett then who that might be is anybody's guess. Here is Bart's frame: He says that is Campbell and Truly next to Barrett.

If what we see in this montage concerning the black patch has been edited out then the cover up is still ongoing, at least in the 6th Floor Museum. I got into trouble with the Robert Groden and his folks. They wouldn't continue to talk to me when I told them I could paint these images better. I would at least keep Kennedy's hair out of the wound and would match the wound's size to the skin flap size. What I see is a horizontal skin flap matching a vertical head wound. And, why is there a bright high light on the skin flap? If it was blood then the whole skip flap wound shine accordingly.

Below is a frame from the Tina Towner film. It is the kind of garbage one finds when trying to verify a point. In this case Where is Prayer Man (Harvey Oswald) when the presidential limo goes by? The answer is not here but, that is problematic. Altgens 6 shows Doorway man. Hughes doesn't reveal anything of significance and neither does John Martin on whose on the steps. Tina Towner shows this: This is what is wrong with doing anything significant with the imagery of the Kennedy assassination. If you look close you can't determine whether there is someone on the fire escape or not. With cut and paste garbage like this to work with you can't determine where Harvey Oswald was during the assassination. The same is true of testimony concerning his whereabouts. Can you believe what was said he said at the Dallas Police Department? Everything has a counterpoint and some one can contradict most of what, if not all you say, about anything. I believe that is by design and the proof of that is people are still arguing about what happened 55 years ago without consensus.

Paul J., I didn't confuse Marys. Mary Hollies was who I was talking about. I have problems with her statements. She is a quad-x or more familiarly a XXXX. Either she lied during the era of the assassination or 48 years later. My problem is I keep wanting to look further at some of the things she said and how much she was influenced by the 6th floor people. As and example, she puts Bonnie Ray Williams on the 6th floor just moments before the assassination. She has him coming down from the 6th floor by elevator and locking the elevator in place. The question is if the 6th floor Museum had that great of an influence on what she said in 2011 then why would they allow her to burn the WC's star witness Bonnie Ray Williams. I have problems with other things she said and why she may have said what she said in 1964. I have a problem with there being no early statements by the Sheriff's Office or the FBI in November of 63. Everybody at the TSBD was covered at the time. They may be out there but, I haven't found any. I don't want to argue with or try to refute what Jim Hargroves has said. I am, or at least part of me, is in agreement. Jim is a solid Kennedy researcher and a good person who doesn't mind saying what he thinks straight up. What I want to do is suggest some alternatives that people can say yea or nay on their merits. Paul B, I think Harvey Oswald was outside the TSBD on Elm St. photographing the motorcade as it went by. He had plenty of time to go back to the TSBD steps and be filmed as Prayer Man. The object he has in his hands in not a coke but, an object about a foot in width. I judge this to be a camera in a two handed camera mount. That is what he went home for instead of curtain rods. The John Martin film shows Prayer Man on Elm St. as the presidential limousine goes by. That is the basis for my contention. I might add most people don't agree and say that can't see Prayer Man there or his camera and it's camera flash.

Jim, Your opinion is in tune with others that I have read several years ago when I first ran across this. Her story is unbelievable to most including myself. Rationally one has to take a step back from it considering the source. However, the irrational part of myself seems to want to hang on to this story because it has elements that might connect to the wider scheme of things. The story of Oswald (Which one?)approaching Mary Hollies on the bus might have to do with what was really happening at the TSBD in that outpost of CIA gun-running, dope trafficking, and school book delivering folks. Some of the statements she said he said about assassinating Kennedy could be to work his way into some kind of scheme there. That's a bit different than the usual take of putting words in Oswald's mouth to connect him to the actual shooting. What Mary Hollies has said can be read several different ways. Odd connections pop up in this story. Oswald caught VD, gonorrhea, in Japanese whorehouses which was treated and marked as "in the line of duty". Was he being trained as a seducer of women? Silly ideas like that were around at that time. Being able to seduce women a la James Bond would be a handy skill for an agent trying to work his way into an organization. Was he attempting to get close to Mary Hollies for the purpose of investigating the book companies role in the assassination. His statements about his willingness to shoot Kennedy may have been a ruse. This is just idle speculation. But, there has to be some reason Oswald was at the TSBD? Why was Oswald sent into the TSBD? What was the rational he was given to get him inside as a government agent. Was he trying to work his way into whatever was going on through people like Mary Hollies or others in other book companies?

Jim, I would like to get your opinion on the Mary Hollies post made earlier. I just found this recently among things I had collected years ago. I realized this is why Bonnie Ray Williams is my main candidate for the black man on the 6th floor. I had forgotten Mary and what she said in 2011. But subconsciously, this was the reasoning for the suspicion that Williams was on the 6th floor. Mary claims to be on the 5th floor even though there are photos showing a woman sitting in a window on the 4th floor. If my memory serves, Junior Jarman said he saw a woman sitting in the window as he went down to the west end of the building on the 5th floor. If Mary can be believed she has identified two of the three men seen on the 6th floor, Bonnie Ray Williams and a Lee Oswald (the double). 4 people at the Nash Rambler (If that can be believed) and the double leaving the TSBD later indicates that there very well may have been 4 people on the 6th floor. This large of a number requires an efficient, secretive, get-away plan. The passenger elevator serves well for that. Four people leaving by stairs, or freight elevator, or fire escape is very noticeable. As Richard Carr indicates when he said he saw 3 men leaving the rear of the TSBD. This was "immediately" after the shooting. And, that raises speculation that they may have left before the shooting leaving Oswald (the double) to do the clean up. Their show display was over. Mary Hollies identifies why the automatic freight elevator is on the 5th floor. It was brought down by Williams from the 6th floor. Truly sees it on the 5th floor and states both elevators were there because the bottoms were even. It can only have went down after Truly and Baker goes to the 7th floor. Jack Daugherty is supposedly lurking somewhere on the 5th floor. If so, that makes a total of 6 people (this includes Alice Foster) there during the shooting. Any could have taken the freight elevator down. As far as the FBI goes, it is the most corrupt government agency for the last (nearly) 100 years. J. Edgar Hoover became the Director of the Bureau of Investigation in 1924 (renamed the FBI in 1935). The FBI's real role in government is as a political enforcement tool for variously, the Director, the Attorney General, or the President or whoever has the power to control what the FBI does. Criminal Investigation is the cover used by the FBI or the public's consumption. I say for nearly the last 100 years because J. Edgar Hoover was as corrupt or more corrupt than most in government. The FBI has not changed since his time. If an FBI agent didn't toe the line he was out. By 1963, Hoover had 39 years to enforce this kind of discipline. FBI agents at the time of the assassination had no problem with coercing, intimidating, and forcing witnesses to say what they wanted. In the case of Richard Carr, I believe he copied or had dictated to him what he was to say in the 2-3-64 statement. And, later on at the Shaw trial he felt free to say what he saw. There is no way to prove that. It is speculation. But, someone who reads this may find a way to validate it.

In January, 2011 the 6th Floor Museum posted a conversation with Mary Hollies. She said the following about Lee Oswald and Bonnie Ray Williams: “Floor five and six were all storage, warehouse. It was all open. It had wooden floors. You could hear the sound very easily, especially through the elevator shaft” “I spent a lot of time on the 4th and 5th floors. When it was announced that the president was near, “Alice (Foster) and I said “let’s go up to the fifth floor”. We rang for the elevator and Lee was on the elevator but he didn’t stop for us. He kept going. So we were kind of miffed with him, and we hollered up the shaft. “Hey, you could’ve stopped for us. But he kept on going to the sixth floor, and then he locked the elevator up. When we finally got to the 5th floor we opened a window and we were sitting on the window ledge and we heard clack..clank..clank..and someone was coming down the noisy elevator. It was a black dude coming down (Bonnie Ray Williams). We went to the window and sat there. We had the perfect place to watch.” (Some researchers believe that Mary Hollies was on the 4th floor but she insists that she was on the 5th floor and later moved to the 4th) We could see the president and Jackie coming down Houston and then…. we thought a cannon had gone off. We saw the president slump and we saw Jackie getting on the back of the car. She was hysterical. “I believe it was three shots, two or three. It was definitely not one.” “Alice noticed some smoke over on the little hill that was there. She saw smoke over there but I don’t know that it was a gun being fired. I don’t know what it was. Every one was going crazy. “Like a chicken with its head cut off.” From an earlier post from Duke Lane in 2007: “The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main.” When you put these two together the suspicion that Bonnie Ray Williams is the black man seen on the 6th floor becomes stronger. And, if you can believe Mary Hollies it becomes a certainty. Bonnie Ray with dust (some thought saw dust) in his hair could very well be the man seen by Amos Euins who first said he saw a white man there but latter denied that and said it was a white spot on his head that he was referring to. Euins had told a reporter, James Underwood, that the man he saw was black. This was noted by a policeman in his notebook at that time. The Oswald they saw may have been the double and was not recognized as such due to the darkeness of the elevator shaft, or the quick passage up the shaft or, having his back turned. Oswald didn’t reply indicating there was a difference in voice quality between the two Oswalds. This was the same kind of thing mentioned by others. There must have been a strong resemblance between the two for someone such as Mary Hollies to see an Oswald in the Oswald double who was on the 6th floor. As an aside, there are two things that fit my peculiar notions. One is that shooting occurred on Houston Street not on Elm for the Zapruder events (I actually think the intersection rather than Houston Street). Strange, isn't it. The other is that she didn't hear shots coming from the floor above her.

There is an interesting thread going back to 2007. Eddie Piper By Greg Parker, December 4, 2007 in JFK Assassination Debate Some of this is about Bonnie Ray Williams and I thought this was interesting since Bonnie Ray is my candidate for the black man on the 6th floor: Duke Lane Super Member Members 1,401 posts Gender:Male Location:USA Interests:Universally loved and admired for his keen wit, sharp intellect, loathsome egoism, and awe-inspiring self-delusion, Lane studies the JFK assassination from afar, offers few opinions, and generally keeps to himself. Report post Posted April 25, 2008 If one reads closely the testimonies of Williams, Norman and Jarman, one finds that it's not only impossible for anyone to have seen these guys on the fifth floor very long before the shooting, but also highly improbable for whoever was on the sixth floor to have been Lee Oswald. The latter is due to the apparent fact that Bonnie Ray Williams was upstairs much later than he ever testified, and his failure to have identified Oswald as having been there fairly well exonerates him. After all, what was Oswald going to do to him for ratting him out? Is that necessarily so? Consider that, when Williams got down to the fifth floor, Junior Jarman had noticed that he'd had a white dusty or powdery substance in his hair. There is no actual representation of how much of that substance was in his hair. Was it a small spot, say 2 by 2 inches, and only lightly dusted, or did it heavily cover his head? If the latter, could someone have mistaken Williams for being "elderly?" Jarman only said that he'd noticed the substance in Williams' hair after the shooting, but he does not state that it was not there prior. Now, if we're to believe that a couple of tiny shells kicked loose enough dust to fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor (the floor of the sixth) some (ten?) feet above Williams' head while he kneeled with his head out the window in sufficient quantity after falling that distance - and presumably dissipating at least somewhat - then and only then can that substance have come from the fifth story ceiling cum sixth story floor. The fact of the matter is that Williams was probably on the sixth floor as late as 12:27-12:28. This is based on Jarman or Norman's testimony that they did not leave the front of the building (where they were seen and noticed by Roy Truly) until after they had heard that the motorcade was on Main Street. That could not have been before 12:22, when the pilot car first indicated that it was on Main Street, and could have been as late as 12:27 when the motorcade was again announced as being on Main. Word could not have filtered all the way down Main Street and into Dealey Plaza for the two to have gleaned that information from "the buzz of the crowd," although it is possible that someone nearby to the TSBD heard it over a police radio and word then filtered through the crowd there, or that there was a police radio near enough to the front of the TSBD for the two to hear, but in either case, that information could only have come from a radio broadcast. Jarman and Norman left the front of the TSBD at about the same time as Danny Arce went to meet his friend at the parking lot at Record Street, a short block away, and then walk to Main Street to watch the parade go by. That walk only takes about 1½ minutes. This is evidenced by Roy Truly's testimony that he'd thought he'd seen Hank and Junior crossing Houston with Danny. Either time would have been sufficient for all three of them to get to their respective locations. Anyway, they went around the back of the TSBD and rode the freight elevator upstairs to the 6th floor. Jarman estimated that this was at 12:26 or 12:28 if memory serves. Jarman also testified that Williams met them after they had arrived, although Norman said that he wasn't certain whether Williams was already there when they'd arrived, or if he'd come afterward (but he certainly did join up with them at some point!). We also know from Roy Truly's testimony that, when he and Officer Baker had gotten to the elevator shaft, both elevators were at the fifth floor. This jibes with the fact that Hank and Junior said that they'd taken the freight elevator to the fifth floor, and that Williams testified that he had ridden the passenger elevator first to the sixth floor, and then back down to the fifth floor when he decided to go downstairs. There is, as you might guess, much more to this story, which I'll get around to telling. Immediately, however, it goes to show that it is possible if not likely that the "elderly Negro" on the sixth floor was Bonnie Ray Williams with some "white stuff" in his hair, both because at some point later he did have the "white stuff" there, and because he was on the sixth floor almost right until the shooting. If that's true - if Williams was upstairs, near a window, with others not matching or even coming close to his description being seen in that and other windows - then Williams saw and very possibly was being "held hostage" by the shooter(s). The fact that he didn't say he'd seen Oswald up there is strong evidence that Oswald wasn't up there, for what did he have to lose - what could he possibly be afraid that a dead man was going to do to him or his family - by saying he'd seen him? Rowland, incidentally, estimated the time he'd seen the man who "seemed to me an elderly Negro" was at about 12:15, just before he noticed the other man with a rifle in the west window, which he estimated by hearing a police radio nearby (!see above about the motorcade on Main!) announcing that the parade was on or around Turtle Creek or somewhere in that vicinity. Even Bonnie Ray admitted to being upstairs at that time, "perhaps" even as late as 12:20 or so, which certainly encompasses 12:15. Greg Parker disputed this later.

Ron, Although I favor the passenger elevator theory based on the need for secrecy and not being seen, I'm moving more toward the elevator theory as a possibility for a quick escape. According to Richard Carr's Clay Shaw Trial testimony 3 people were seen coming onto Houston Street from the back of the TSBD. If correct these 3 people, two of which got into the Nash Rambler station wagon and the third walked south on Houston, are members of the plot. The third person walking south is the person Carr claimed to have seen on the top floor. This is the same vehicle that picked up an Oswald identified by Roger Craig as Lee Harvey Oswald. 3 people must have had a quick way to get to the first floor rear of the TSBD, a fourth person could have walked down the steps and met Truly / Baker. The fire escape, the only other way out of the building, has a low probability of being an escape exit based on Carr's information. I would say generally a sniper team is made of two men, a shooter and a spotter to correct the shooting. However, the Dealey Plaza assassination was a different thing all together. There had to be coordination between sniping teams. This requires a radio man or communication extra person to monitor radio traffic. This was a well thought out operation. I would say a 4th man was added to protect the sniping team from interference. To keep someone from interfering with the sniping team. Say, someone on the 5th floor to control the elevators and have them ready for a possible escape.

People have said this numerous times. The photos clinch what people were saying. There is always something good coming from Prayer-Man.Com. You are getting me to the point where I am spoiled and expecting more and more good things from Kamp and Co.