John Butler

Jim, There should be some way to find info on the ventilation system for the passenger elevator. A ventilation system would have to be there due to: 1. Building Codes and Standards 2. Government inspection 3. Insurance requirements The elevator shaft is directly in front of the second set of widows on the east face going north from the south face. That is from the ground up. This is the structure of the building pre-elevator or any kind of air conditioning other than the windows. Air conditioning was done by windows. The windows on the east side probably opened the same as any other windows with a safety factor of not opening but a short distance from the floor. A ventilation shaft would probably not use a window on the 5th floor as it would interfere with the elevator operation in the 5th floor. A shaft could connect through the floor of the sixth floor to the 6th floor window. That’s why the elevator shaft was placed in front of the windows on the east face and not the wall between windows. There would also be a need to access the elevator shaft other than the doorway or the hatch in the elevator. Maybe. Of course this is all conjecture. Somewhere their should be plans for the elevator shaft.

Escape from the 6th Floor of the TSBD Illustrations and photos taken from harveyandlee.com. The harveyandlee.com people have done more than an adequate job of stating and explaining their theory of the passenger elevator escape from the 6th floor. They have explained it in full. However, if you don’t go to harveyandlee.com you may not have gotten the full, rational explanation of the elevator escape. I will try to summarize. At first glance the elevator escape is ludicrous. There is no passenger elevator on the 6th floor. There are just the two freight elevators. However, if you read what they are talking about at harveyandlee.com you will understand there is a passenger elevator shaft just below the floorboards of the floor of the 6th floor. It looks like this: The TSBD people probably did not build the elevator shaft. More than likely a professional elevator company did. They would have fulfilled all standards of construction due to government inspection. One of those standards is that the shaft if going to or above 4 floors must have a ventilation shaft. The elevator was not intended for passengers to go to the 5th floor. But, to fulfill construction standards it had to go to the 5th floor. On the day of the assassination photos were taken of the Sniper’s Nest area. One of the photos shows the second set of windows moving from the south TSBD face north along the east face of the building. This is where the passenger elevator shaft is located. Here’s what that looks like: If you look carefully there is a column of boxes covering the ventilation shaft. There are less than 10 or 20 boxes in that column of boxes. How long would it take to move them? The harveyandlee folks leave room for there not to be a ventilation shaft there. I think there had to be one due to construction standards and government inspections for safety. All that would be required to access the elevator shaft would be to remove the vent covering. That would be easier than tampering with floor boards. Easier to replace and cover with 10 or 20 so boxes. That would take a short period of time. Out of sight out of mind. I have been accused from time to time of having an overactive imagination. Let’s put that to use. If you look at the floor plan for the 6th floor you will see that there is only two ways out of the 6th floor. These are the stairway and the 2 freight elevators. But, is that really true for escape plans? The stairways and freight elevators go to all 7 floors of the TSBD. The building lost electrical power during the assassination and for possibly two minutes after. So, that rules out the freight elevators being used as an escape route. The stairways can also be ruled out because they would take you to the 7th floor and consequently no escape. Going downstairs was not feasible since there were 3 black men on the 5th floor and office workers on the 4th floor. So, how did the people on the 6th floor escape? Two men were seen by several people. A third was seen by Amos Euins. Therefore, there is also a possibility of a third man. The third man was a black man. Euins told this to reporter James Underwood. If any other men were there then they stood back from the windows and were not seen. We can say with certainty that two men were there according to witness testimony. But, we can not say with certainty that there were only two men there. A ridiculous and humorous way for the sniper party to leave the building is to jump out the windows. Not a safe or likely escape plan. There is another way that might take some thinking about because of its easiness for trained people. This is they could repel out the windows to the ground. Since, the windows only open a short distance and are near the floor this was probably not used. However, if you went up to the 7th floor and accessed the top of the building then repelling becomes an easy task. It is about 70 feet to the ground. A helper could toss the ropes and repelling equipment to the ground. And, the 6th floor crew could drive off in a stations wagon down Elm Street and pick up the last member of the crew. The problem with this is you need men trained with specialized military or mountain climbing skills. And, the biggest concern in repelling off the north face of the building from the top of the TSBD is being seen. If they did this during or directly after the assassination could they get away with it during the excitement and crowd hysteria in front of the TSBD? It is too risky a scenario. You could go up to the roof and be picked up by a helicopter. Since no one heard or saw a helicopter that is an unlikely escape plan. Does this make the passenger elevator escape route sounder and plausible? I think so.

I have been suspicious of the fire escape as an avenue of escape for the 6th floor people for a long time. I have looked at all the films and photos relevant to the time and have found nothing that would indicate an escape route fire escape. The Tina Towner film has vague images on the 1st and 2nd floor fire escape one could imagine as Dallas Policemen. But, they are white blobs and dark shapes that you really can not say are policemen. The fire escape seen in the Hughes film or other films could have been edited to show no one on the fire escape when there were actually men there. It would not be a big photo editing job to do that. But, there is absolutely no proof of that. 3 men were said to be in the 6th floor Sniper's Nest location. One of these men probably stayed for a moment or two after the assassination. Someone rearranged boxes in the Sniper's Nest. The HSCA estimated this was done within less than 2 minutes. This person probably met Truly and Baker on the 4th floor rear stairways. How did the others leave the 6th floor and by what route? The passenger elevator escape route at first glance seems fantastical. But, on study it seems plausible and would be a handy escape route where someone who did not want to be identified would not be identified. It would be a simple matter for the remaining team member to cover whatever was done to the floor boards with boxes. That is why there were more boxes in the first photo posted (Powell I think) earlier and less boxes in the second photo (Dilliard I believe).

My last post was to introduce the notion of how diabolically clever the masterminds of the CIA were. The cover up specialists, in my opinion, had several goals. One was to cover up what happened even if that was done superficially. Another might be to establish conflicting evidence that could be read multiple ways. This was to establish reasonable doubt so that no one would be prosecuted and convicted of a Kennedy assassination crime. Oswald would be killed and not go to trial. Anyone else would not be convicted due to shoddy, conflicting evidence. Currently, there are 4 good men in disagreement. Sandy Larsen, Bart Kamp, Jim Hargrove, and Andrej Stancak can't form a consensus on the Shelley / Lovelady incident and testimony. If these good men can't agree then would a jury at a trial agree on a verdict? What would be the point of having a trial of a Kennedy assassination conspirator? Everywhere I go in the Kennedy Assassination Story I find this conflicting evidence and stories. When the Warren Commission brought out their truth nearly everyone was in agreement. I think the number was 81%. Over time that belief eroded to a reversal of that number in modern times. What was once believed has been demonstrated to be false. But, the controversy and conflict will not go away. Good men can disagree and I think that is what the cover up conspirators wanted to establish. The Warren Commission did a great job of that. No one would be convicted for their participation in the murder of President Kennedy and the subsequent cover up.

This is a bit off topic but it fits with how to identify someone when the authorities are trying to obscure the truth. How close in appearance were Harvey Oswald and Lee Oswald? That is an important question in considering where Harvey was at during the time of the assassination. Was an Oswald up on the 6th floor, an Oswald in the first floor break room, an Oswald in the doorway, or an Oswald on the street filming the motorcade? It is a shame we don’t have good photos. If we did we could determine which Oswald was where. They were close enough in appearance that they could fool people of bare acquaintance or the seldom met. After some time one would be remembered as the other. However, their appearance as twins would not stand close scrutiny if one looked closely at photographs. In a work place such as the TSBD with 70,000 feet of floor space there is enough room to lose more than two Oswalds in the building. Using Harvey Oswald’s mug shot I have identified a list of characters that separate Harvey from Lee. Here they are: Harvey has earlobes and Lee does not. Harvey has a narrow, long nose. Lee has a long, broader nose. Harvey has a narrow chin and Lee has a short broad chin. There are two bends or crooks in the upper rim of the left ear of Harvey. Lee lacks this distinguishing characteristic. Harvey has a wide downward sloping neck in a frontal view and in profile a narrow neck. Harvey has normally sloping shoulders and Lee has shoulders that slope significantly. The ear folds or bends of the upper left ear rim are very suitable for identifying Harvey Oswald. Here is an example of how to use these characteristics. Most people think this is Harvey Oswald in this photo with Marina. But, It is Lee Oswald. Without looking at the face one sees Harvey Oswald. And now to New Orleans for the film showing Oswald at the New Orleans Courthouse. If you watch the film you see this man as Harvey Oswald. If you look closer you will see Lee Oswald retouched to look like Harvey. Harvey and Lee were close in appearance. But, with closer inspection such as in a photo Lee needed retouching to look like Harvey. All most all films and photos featuring Lee Oswald have been retouched to make Lee look more like Harvey. In the next photo we can see a few Lee traits. Lee passes well here as Harvey so, no retouching is necessary or, this photo was missed.

This is off topic but, will help with the New Orleans discussion for Joe Bauer. LHO made several appearances in film during the month of August. I thought just once on the street passing out pamphlets and once on TV. But, there were 5 times he was filmed. Taken from this site: https://jfkassassinationfiles.wordpress.com/2017/01/13/the-oswald-films-an-outline/ The site has more relevant information than this brief summary: August 9, 1964- James Doyle film- has LHO and Carlos Brinquier in it. August 12, 1964- Johann Russ- WDSU-TV- New Orleans Courthouse sentencing for his Aug. 9 arrest. Has Carlos Brinquier and other Cubans. August 16, 1964- Johann Russ- WDSU-TV- Passing out pamphlets in front of the International Trade Mart. Has Carlos Brinquier, Cubans, Clay Shaw, Charles Rogers, and Chauncey Holt. Unnamed is William Shelley and others. August 16, 1964- Mike O’Connor- WWL-TV- Passing out pamphlets on the street. August 21, 1964- WDSU-TV studio- Interview of LHO for broadcast.

Chris, If this is the kind of help your giving I'll pass. It's not Zapruder filming Zapruder's film we are talking about but Altgens taking Altgens photo no. 6. Where was Altgens when he took Altgens 6? Altgens is first seen the Zapruder film at Z frame 330. I am going to assume he walked into the street and filmed somewhere about there in a street location. Altgens 6 is filmed from the middle of the road. It is 115 frames/feet from the Stemmons sign when the Limo comes out from behind it at Z frame 215. Back to basics. What makes Altgens relate to Z frame 255. It is not their camera angles or distance on the street. It is the scene in Altgens 6 where President Kennedy raises his hands to his throat. Jackie is touching his arm. Zapruder frame 255 has a similar scene. That supposedly relates them. Altgens takes a photo in the middle of Elm Street with the presidential limo in the middle of Elm Street when the presidential limousine is at Z215. The presidential limousine has not passed the Stemmons sign. And, this is 40 feet/frames before Z frame 255. If the presidential limousine was at Z frame 255 then the Stemmons sign should be behind it. As you can see from this comparison Z 227 has the Stemmons sign in it. Z 255 does not. Where is the sign? The distance between vehicles is 28 frames/feet in these two frames. The Stemmons sign is 28 feet behind the presidential vehicle in Z 255. Altgens in the middle of the street roughly at Z frame location 330 about 75 feet away from location Z 255. The sign should be in the Altgens 6 photo behind the limo to the right rear. You can't explain it not being there by any means. The same reasoning applies with Z 215 and z 255.

I think your notion of a “extant Z255” has carried you away into fantasy land. Are you saying Z frame 255 occurred before reaching the Stemmons sign? The word extant means still existing. Z 255 exists only in the Zapruder film. If you can not go with the what the film scences show then you can not argue rationally. Your illustrations don’t make sense at all.

Tony, One of the points about identifying the Oswalds seen in the New Orleans TV film which I think these photos come from is who is who. A standard technique of photo editors to disguise someone is to use a face mask from another person. It is easier and more realistic than just substituting the head. I stuck me that the Harvey Oswald shown might not be Harvey but Lee faked instead. In other words Harvey covered with a Lee face mask. When you think about that that is too bizarre to believe. That would be the opposite of most of what is seen. I did a writeup on Harvey's facial characteristics based upon his Dallas Police mug shot. It's somewhere here on the forum. It made sense to me but, to others not so much. Your shoulder angle analysis further leads me to believe that something suspicious is going on here. Lee has the sloping shoulders and Harvey not as much. If that is a Harvey face mask on Lee then they made of a mess of the appearance. Looks more like Lee in my opinion, hence the photo comparison. In the photo next to the 3 Patsy photo an Oswald figure is shown. If you look close there is a line running down the face from the hairline to the chin. The face mask is mismatched with the Oswald figure's hair. In the 3 Patsy photo the central character has his backed turned in every photo he is in. This person might be Lee Oswald. If not, based on his round head, my next suspect in Kerry Thornley. One or the other are prime suspects for the person in the Oswald Passport photo for Mexico. I believe that Oswald in the passport is wearing a Harvey face mask. That is an old argument. Anyway that passport has been photo edited based on other characteristics. There is also the problem of altered photos in deciding whose who in the Oswalds in your analysis. Some are composite photos.

Chris, Like it or not at Z frame 215 the presidential limousine peeks out from behind the Stemmons sign. From that point, based on 1 foot per frame, you have 40 feet to Z frame 255. If you are more of a purist the full limousine is visible at Z frame 230. That makes it 25 feet to Z frame 255. 25 or 40 feet in Altgens 6 you should see the Stemmons sign to the right rear of the limousine on the north side of Elm. Once again Z frame 230. If you look the sign has been tampered with in this film. It should be at right angles to the street but it is not. It is at an different angle. But that doesn't matter. From here in this scene it is 25 feet to Z frame 255. The Stemmons sign should be visible to the rear of the presidential limousine. And, it is not.

Here's another speculation. We usually think of the person in the New Orleans films passing out pamphlets as Harvey Oswald. Based on the photo it could be Lee. Would that make the photo shown a 4 Patsy photo? Could who was to be the real Patsy still up in the air in the summer of 1963. It could have been decided that one of the two, Harvey or Lee, was definitely going to be the Patsy. Could be anybody's guess.

Chris, I don't get your point. How do you connect the day after photo to anything? Z frame 248 has the presidential limousine pass the Stemmons sign. I use John Costella's Zapruder frames. By Z frame 215 we see the presidential limousine emerging from behind the Stemmons sign. By Z frame 230 it has fully emerged. So, I don't know what Z frame 248 has to do with anything.

On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:29 PM, John Butler said: Ron, That is very reasonable. Of course the other guy can say different. That is my problem with just about every piece of JFK research. Can you get agreement from fellow researchers. The Krome gif imagery is fairly poor. It is the same as PM. It is not sufficient to say whose who. I originally thought the Lovelady figure was wearing a light colored shirt. But, you can see a patterned shirt there if you want too. The image is just that poor. As far as identifying Lovelady and Shelley, the imagery looks vaguely like them. But, the imagery also looks vaguely like someone else. The business of the Lovelady shirt looking like two different shirts is hard to decipher. Tony later shows imagery that make one doubt what was said earlier about a light colored shirt. As far as there being no cops there I believe one was at the far left in the earlier frames. And, of course the motorcycle cop running for the TSBD doorway. I have my doubts that is Baker based on the timing of the Couch-Darnell film and supposedly what Baker said about when he arrived at the TSBD. I am reserving doubt the motorcycle policeman being Baker. Jim and Sandy are both right from their perspective. You have to decide what you think is best based on how you read the evidence. They read the evidence differently. The idea of Lovelady and Shelley being co-conspirators or not could go either way. At least in the case of Bill Shelley, I agree he may very well be a co-conspirator based on the 3 Patsy photo in New Orleans showing Lee Oswald, Bill Shelley, and Chauncey Holt. There is some disagreement on Bill Shelley in that photo. But, to me he is a dead ringer. This imagery may be suspicious. It is from a TV film in New Orleans. Why was this saved showing a minor event on the street. The passing out of pamphlets that note worthy to film and then save the film? This film may show a very rare event. Harvey and Lee filmed together working the same event. That's just speculation based on the central figure. I just realized that Bill Shelley is on the street in front of the International Trade Center. Does this mean that the ITC is connected to the TSBD? Does this mean Roy Truly and his boss D H Byrd is connected to Clay Shaw? What possible connection could Clay Shaw, CIA spy, have with a company that sells textbooks? With Lee Harvey Oswald? William Weston says guns and drugs. Jim, What do you think about this as far as the validity of Bill Shelley goes?

No Problem Andrej, Dale Myers (Z257=W015) is one of the things I wanted to correct. Altgens 6 does not correspond to Z frame 255. At Z frame 215 or so the presidential limousine comes out from behind the Stemmons sign. From that point onward the Stemmons sign is behind the presidential limousine to the right rear on the north side of Elm. You can't see the Stemmons sign in Altgens 6. It is not in the photo and should be there. The Stemmons sign should be 40 feet behind the presidential limousine in Altgens 6 and be visible. No amount of camera gobbleygook can convince me otherwise. How does one arrive at 40 feet? That's based on he general estimate that 1 frame equals 1 foot in movement of the vehicle.

I just realized that Bill Shelley is on the street in front of the International Trade Center. Does this mean that the ITC is connected to the TSBD? Does this mean Roy Truly and his boss D H Byrd is connected to Clay Shaw? What possible connection could Clay Shaw, CIA spy, have with a company that sells textbooks? With Lee Harvey Oswald? William Weston says guns and drugs.

Andrej, Motorcycle Policeman Marion Baker makes his run to the TSBD doorway in the Couch-Darnell film at about 30 seconds plus after the assassination of President Kennedy. The beginning first 1 to 2 seconds of the Couch-Darnell film is equivalent to frames at 37-38 seconds of the Weigman film. You can disassociate the Couch-Darnell film from where Prayer Man (Oswald) was during the assassination of President Kennedy. But, you cannot with the Weigman film. The Weigman film shows PM in the doorway of the TSBD directly after the assassination. Altgens 6 does not show PM. The conclusion is that PM is not in the doorway at the time of the shooting. He is somewhere else. There are various accounts saying he was elsewhere and others saying he was outside watching the parade. Andrej Stancak says: “My analysis of Hughes, e.g., the frame often shown by David Josephs, tells me that Prayer Man was not at his spot when the Presidential limousine was just passing the depository building and before the shots rang out. So, yes, Lee did not watch the parade with other people, he was not in the doorway minutes before, he did not have chat with other employees. This is consistent with Inspector Kelley's report. Lee came, if he was Prayer Man, into doorway during the moments after President's limo passed and was certainly at his spot just after the last shot - this is documented in Wiegman. So, yes, he also saw the tail of the motorcade, the pandemonium, the commotion and the excitement. This fits with what he told during his very first interrogation and what Agent Hosty has recorded.” Your statement is consistent with the Weigman film. “just after” is the problem of timing when Weigman began filming. Weigman didn’t begin his filming until he reached the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets. During the shooting he was on Houston Street in Camera Car #1. He said he heard two shots while still in the vehicle and was on the street for the third shot. Camera Car #1 was located on Houston Street midway in front of the Court Records Building. The block of Houston Street in question is about 200 feet. The Court Records Building is about half or 100 feet of that block. Weigman had to run 50 to 75 feet to be into position to start filming the front of the TSBD. I estimate that to be 3-5 seconds. You estimate Oswald walking briskly across the first floor of the TSBD to the door way to be 12 seconds to cover roughly 65 feet. My 3-5 seconds could be longer depending on Weigman’s running speed. You say: “As to the timing, I have calculated that Lee would need 12 seconds to walk briskly (not run) at 6 km/hour speed from the 1st floor lunchroom to the doorway (21 meters in my reading of the 1st floor plan) and thinking of Wiegman's first doorway frame W014 or W015 showing the doorway to coincide with Z313 + 1 second, we can estimate the likely time of his departure from the first floor lunchroom.” Depending on how long the Mayor's Car and National Press Pool Car was held up on Elm before moving down Elm Street effects when Weigman begins shooting the film. Mrs. Earle Cabell says they were definitely stopped. There could be as much as 11-13 to 19 seconds before Weigman begins filming. 8 seconds for the shooting. Possibly 3 to 5 seconds (could be longer) for Weigman to get to Elm Street. Possibly 8 seconds of the Mayor's car sitting still. That could be 19 seconds. The 19 second estimate depends on how long the Mayor’s Car sat in the Elm intersection before Weigman began filming. The first 8 seconds of the Weigman film is black screen. Is this just for a filming affect or simply to cover 8 seconds of the Mayor’s Car sitting still. The 11-13 seconds (could be longer) time for Weigman to get to Elm Street is enough for your 12 second estimate. Actually, Oswald was a life long walker, didn’t drive, walked everywhere. He could have made that quicker than 12 seconds. Yes, Oswald or Prayer Man had time to get to the doorway from wherever he was. Marion Baker supposedly made his run in 4 seconds. HIs run is at least half the distance of the TSBD, about 50 feet or more. I don't agree with PM being in the building. I think he was on Elm Street as shown in John Martin. That's an old argument and not necessary here. If he was in the building as you say he had time to reach the doorway and be outside. No Problem.

Crossfire by Jim Marrs is always good for someone starting out in JFK research. I like the Harvey and Lee site a lot. It fits a lot of the things I see.

Ron, That is very reasonable. Of course the other guy can say different. That is my problem with just about every piece of JFK research. Can you get agreement from fellow researchers. The Krome gif imagery is fairly poor. It is the same as PM. It is not sufficient to say whose who. I originally thought the Lovelady figure was wearing a light colored shirt. But, you can see a patterned shirt there if you want too. The image is just that poor. As far as identifying Lovelady and Shelley, the imagery looks vaguely like them. But, the imagery also looks vaguely like someone else. The business of the Lovelady shirt looking like two different shirts is hard to decipher. Tony later shows imagery that make one doubt what was said earlier about a light colored shirt. As far as there being no cops there I believe one was at the far left in the earlier frames. And, of course the motorcycle cop running for the TSBD doorway. I have my doubts that is Baker based on the timing of the Couch-Darnell film and supposedly what Baker said about when he arrived at the TSBD. I am reserving doubt the motorcycle policeman being Baker. Jim and Sandy are both right from their perspective. You have to decide what you think is best based on how you read the evidence. They read the evidence differently. The idea of Lovelady and Shelley being co-conspirators or not could go either way. At least in the case of Bill Shelley, I agree he may very well be a co-conspirator based on the 3 Patsy photo in New Orleans showing Lee Oswald, Bill Shelley, and Chauncey Holt. There is some disagreement on Bill Shelley in that photo. But, to me he is a dead ringer. This imagery may be suspicious. It is from a TV film in New Orleans. Why was this saved showing a minor event on the street. The passing out of pamphlets that note worthy to film and then save the film? This film may show a very rare event. Harvey and Lee filmed together working the same event. That's just speculation based on the central figure.

Operating one of those big photo editing machines David Healey talks about would be a nightmare for me. However, a well skilled and veteran team could do wonders with one in a short period of time. John Costella, long ago, speculated that the Z film is built from the ground up. I never could get a handle on that. If so, you would only need the briefing board photos during the first week and for some time after. Later one would have plenty of time to construct the whole film. The head shot fakery is just one of many, many content problems in the film. There was a Zapruder film out an about available. But, is it the same one as seen in later weeks and months. Is the original original? And, how would one tell with the most powerful and sophisticated agency in the US government controlling what happened to it. All of the first folks possessing the film were related to the CIA in one form or fashion.

Various people saw various people in the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest before the assassination. There are various accounts of what these people looked like. There are also accounts of people in the Sniper’s Nest after the assassination. Lily Mooneyham, a clerk employee of the 95th District Court saw someone there 4 or 5 minutes after shots were fired. There are two photos, Dilliard and Powell, that back up her statement that someone was there after the assassination. These photos show that someone was there rearranging book boxes in the window of the Sniper’s Nest. The HSCA concluded this was in 2 minutes of the assassination shooting. Who was this person rearranging boxes? That can only be answered through speculation. It could be a cleanup person from the Sniper’s Nest assassination team. From the various descriptions of the people given for who was seen there before the assassination there could have been 3 people. A dark complexioned man in a brown coat, possibly Mac Wallace or a Latin, a white man in a light colored shirt, possibly Lee Oswald or another, and a negro. A negro who was partially bald or had dust in his hair. The team by logical reasoning should have been composed of 3 or 4 individuals. There should have been a shooter, a spotter, a radio man, and a guard. That is all speculation. But, what is not speculation is that someone was there after the assassination arranging boxes. Many boxes were removed from the window and place elsewhere. Where were they placed? Here is where the alternative down through the floor boards to the passenger elevator escape plan would come in handy. The sniper team escapes on the passenger elevator. The cleanup man stays and covers the tampered with floor boards with boxes moved from the window and hides he weapon on his way out. Then he goes down the steps to be confronted by Baker and Truly at about the 3rd or 4th floor. Most likely the 4th floor. My objection to the weapon and shooting is that one cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that shooting occurred on the 6th floor. Dorothy Garner said she saw and heard Baker and Truly going up the steps. She would have heard someone going down prior to Baker and Truly coming up. The person coming down’s noise would have been covered up by Baker and Truly’s noise coming up. The only problem with this is Garner doesn’t say she saw a person going down the stairs. The cleanup man is a TSBD employee who is identified by Truly when encountered on the 4th floor stairs. He was never identified publicly. This leads to a speculation he might have been Lee Oswald and he left the building shortly after to be spotted by Roger Craig. Could it be that Lee Oswald was in the Sniper’s Nest and this fact was known to the authorities? But, they couldn’t pin the wrap on Harvey because he was down on the street or in the doorway. It is a bit of a stretch. You would have to prove the box arranger and the man on the 3rd or 4th floor met by Baker and Truly are the same. Then you would have to prove that person was Lee Oswald, half of the Harvey and Lee team. As the old Senator from SC said there’s too much proving going on.

The frame no. 1 in Krome’s gif is from the opening scenes, the first frames, of the Couch-Darnell film. It is at the time the motorcycle policeman allegedly Marion Baker makes his run for the TSBD doorway. This shows two figures that are said to be Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. I can’t find this frame after three pass throughs at a single frame at a time. I’m sure its there but, I am having trouble finding it. Maybe, Chris Davidson can help out. He has fixed my most recent blunder. Which, I once again thank him. This is from the opening scenes of Couch-Darnell which is from the first 1-2 seconds of the film. This happens at about the same time as 37-38 seconds into the Weigman film. This is at least 30 seconds or so after shooting has happened in Dealey Plaza. Marion Baker is supposed to have made his ride and run into the TSBD in 15 seconds. This gives him time for the 2nd floor break room story. The problem is that that didn’t happen in 15 seconds according to this frame. Nor, is the Lovelady figure in this frame Billy Lovelady from Couch-Darnell based on his appearance. Lovelady’s appearance is well known based on Altgens 6. The Oswald figure in Altgens 6 is acknowledged by most as Billy Lovelady. Lovelady said he was that figure. He lied (falsehood) through his teeth. Look at how he is dressed in Altgens 6: The figure that is allegedly Lovelady is dressed in a patterned shirt, open midway down, with long sleeves rolled down. This is not the way PM is dressed in Weigman and Couch-Darnell. PM’s shirt Weigman / Couch-Darnell is buttoned to the throat and sleeves rolled up to the elbow. Now look at the figure I have identified as Lovelady. He has a white in appearance short sleeve shirt. This is the same clothing you will find on the Lovelady figure in the Krome gif. Let’s look at frame no. 1 from that gif above. The figure identified as Lovelady has the same appearance as the figure I identified as Lovelady in Altgens 6. The frame no. 1 is difficult to see so, lets look at frame no. 55 in the gif. That too is difficult but, you should see a short sleeve shirt as versus a long sleeve shirt. The Lovelady figure is in a short sleeve shirt in this frame. He is the same as the Lovelady figure I identified in Altgens 6. This may not be Lovelady, but another. The image quality is weak here and in Altgens 6 there is no head for the figure I identified as Lovelady. This figure is the same one seen in the doorway of Altgens 6. He is definitely not the Oswald figure because he is wearing a light colored short sleeve shirt rather than a long sleeve dark patterned shirt. Lovelady, I think said later he was wearing a short sleeve shirt. Then, of course he identified himself as Doorway Man. Now is the time for speculation based on what has been discussed above. The films Weigman / Couch Darnell show that Prayer Man is in the doorway for both films. The difference between the films is at least 30 seconds. Weigman’s opening frames (which start at 8 seconds into the film) maybe 11 to 15 seconds after the first shot. It could be longer say, 21 seconds if you count the first 8 seconds of the Weigman film. If PM is in the doorway of the TSBD that early then one can speculate he was there when the shooting in the assassination occurred. I personally don’t like this idea due to the imagery of the John Martin film. However, it is a reasonable judgement based on the evidence provided. In my opinion the Oswald figure in Altgens 6 is photo edited into a Billy Lovelady figure with a face mask of Lovelady. I don’t see any editing of the figure’s shirt. Its possible that the shirt is edited and we have PM below the face mask and the edited shirt. I don’t care for this idea either due to the 5 seconds of a figure I call PM on Elm Street in the John Martin film. If that figure is Oswald and PM is Oswald the two don’t match in Altgens and the Weigman/Couch-Darnell films. That leaves two Oswalds. Then, how does one account for the Oswald figure seen on the 6th floor Sniper’s Nest. That gives 3 Oswalds. That if real is a real conundrum. I like the harveyandlee people talking about two Oswalds at the TSBD. It fits my biases. It explains a lot of the contradictions about Oswald that day. However, 3 Oswalds is a different story. The Oswald Project could have routinely used two Oswalds in most situations, in Japan, in Russia, in New Orleans, and in Dallas. There were others who doubled Oswald in other instances. Harvey and Lee look enough alike to fool people (that is except John Pic). If one Oswald kept quiet and had minimal contact with people at the TSBD then they might be able to pull it off. It might explain why one Oswald did not greet people who greeted him. People have a hard time recognizing other peoples facial feature's so they use "sign posts along the way", which is a way of saying different characteristics like different or the same clothing. The same clothing could validate an Oswald even though some one has problems with facial features. They would simply dismiss their doubts in favor of the known rather than the unknown. That is a lot to speculate. But, through speculation often comes verification or falsification of speculated ideas. One could call that the scientific method. The proposal of a hypothesis (speculation) and it's testing to falsification or verification.

I read the account at harveyandlee.net and the alternate escape is more plausible than I first realized. There is one thing that bothers me. The passenger elevator electricity was turned off for about two minutes. Could it have been more than two minutes? Someone was on the 6th floor rearranging boxes about 2 minutes after the assassination as noticed by different photos of the TSBD taken after the assassination by the motorcade camera crews. Was this accounted for in the explanation or I did I miss it? If the rearrangement of boxes is real there was someone there about 2 minutes after the assassination and may have placed boxes over any floor boards tampered with by the Sniper's Nest team. This person could be the person seen by Truly and Baker on the 3rd or 4th floor in Baker's first report. This person was never identified or even considered after 11-23-63. This is a bit of a stretch but just possible if the times are stretched a little past 1 1/2 minutes for the 2nd floor incident (which never happened) to over 2 minutes to allow someone to come down the steps and meet Truly and Baker. Baker makes his run in the Couch-Darnell film at about 30 seconds plus after the assassination. Depending on how long the Mayor's Car and National Press Pool Car was held up on Elm before moving down Elm Street. There could be as much as 40 seconds before Baker gets to the TSBD doorway. 8 seconds for the shooting. Possibly 3 to 5 seconds for Weigman to get to Elm Street. Possibly 8 seconds of the Mayor's car sitting still. 30 seconds for Weigman to film the Camera Cars coming onto Elm with the Camera Car #3 crew (Couch and Darnell) filming the TSBD at 37 0r 38 seconds into the Weigman film and 1 to 2 seconds before we see Baker running to the TSBD. Possible maximum length of time for Baker's run = 50 to 52 seconds. Others dispute this timing. What is speculative is the timing of how long the Mayor's Car was stopped in the intersection. Baker is not seen at 13 seconds of Weigman and should be if he made his ride and run in 15 seconds to the TSBD doorway.

While looking for other things, I came across this interesting montage. I'm just posting it for those who don't have it and would like to add it to their collection of photos. This is 5 photos in one place for a handy reference of the guy I call the Al Bundy Oswald in Mexico.

What Bart says may explain why the WC classified Vickie Adams testimony as Top Secret. The public wouldn't know or Vickie. They could use that for their own internal justifications in framing Oswald and no one would known until it was too late. And, later it could become a LN truth in stories. Would it help cover what Shelley and Lovelady were doing after the assassination or during it.

Paul brings up a good question. Which, might be asked another way. How many ways are there to go from the 6th floor to the street? 1. Use one of the two freight elevators. 2. There were office worker elevators available at the 4th floor offices. 3. There were the rear steps from the 7th floor to the first. 4. I believe there was a second set of steps for office workers in the front of the building. I don't know if these stairs connected to the 4th floor. 5. There was a fire escape on all the upper floors. The lower floor fire escapes were located in the offices or near the offices of supervisors. I may have some of this wrong working from memory. I'm sure someone will correct. But, it does seem to be an elaborate plan to exit the 6th floor through the floor boards. Maybe a further explanation how this would occur would help with the uncertainty. The TSBD is 100 X 100 ft. That gives 10,000 sq. ft. per floor. Which means you can not tell what's happening on the north side of the building if you are on the south side or vice versus. As I understand it each from the 4th up was a jungle of boxes and a maze going through them. Plenty of cover for someone to hide as say Vickie Adams and Sandra Styles went down the stairs and then a few seconds later be stopped by Truly and Baker on the 3rd or 4th floor. As far as going down the fire escapes there are no films after the assassination showing the east side fire escapes. I don't know whether this will be of help to Jim and John. They probably thought of all of this prior. So, they must have a good reason to propose the floor board escape plan.