John Butler

Corey, I call Dealey Plaza Murder Plaza. There is a boatload of places one could hide and shoot from. Shots could come from even outside the Plaza. The ranges are short.

Chris and Chris, Good points using other films as references. Chris Barstow- I think the Chisms had 3 children but, only one with them that day. I was really uncertain on the Umbrella Man and Latin Man's angles in Zapruder vs. Bronson. Thanks for clearing that up. Chris Davidson- Good visual. I assuming that is Nix. Often times you see one thing in one film and not in another. Your Newman children seem to be wearing the same clothing color, red. I don't know whether they wore the same colors or not for clothes. In Bronson their clothing color is different assuming the blob above Mary's head is a child in red. In the Bronson frame there is a blob of something above Mary Moorman's head. Aligning that with your visual says it should be a child with Gayle Newman. Zapruder does not have the Newmans in the film and they should be there. There is no reason for them not to be there. It is my belief that the Newmans were by the SW corner of the TSBD where Bill first said he was. That would make these frames and photos edited. They simply got left out of the Zapruder film and it was too late to put them in it. What is you guy's opinion on the Hesters? I believe they had plenty of time to cross the street and be in the Pergola area when Wiegman came by to film them. My view of the motorcade was that it was stop and go between at least the first 3 segments of the caravan. The Bronson frame is before or just when the assassination started as most folks think. There is time to walk across the street before the Mayor's Car (second segment) and the Camera Cars (3rd segment) arrive before the Knoll. The people in the Bronson frame are not the Hesters even though Jack White identified them as such. You have in the Bell film the Hesters sitting on the ground and that particular couple in the Bronson frame shows up in later frames at the same time as the Hesters in much the same area as the Bronson frame.

Thanks Steve, No. 4 is a black man. Don't know whether her husband was black. Maybe somebody else can help out on that. Any idea who no. 1 and no. 2 are?

Trying to Understand this Bronson Frame I have tried to identify all of the people in this frame as I could. Those I couldn’t I put a numbered question mark and maybe someone who knows can identify those unknowns. Putting all the names in the frame has over complicated the analysis of the photo frame so, please bear with that. There are problems with this frame based on other photos, films, and witness statements. I’ll start at the top of the scene. Zapruders: Zapruder and Sitzman are positioned where they are supposed be and doing what they are supposed to be doing. Stemmons sign: May be a little hard to identify but, it is where it is supposed to be. The Umbrella Man and Latin Man may be out of position based on how you see Zapruder’s filming angle in the Zapruder film. Hesters: There is a real problem with identifying the Hesters as the people identified as the Hesters in this scene. Jack White, long ago said this couple are the Hesters. He was wrong. According to their testimony they were positioned on the south side of Elm Street and then after the shooting moved to the north side of Elm Street to the Arcade seeking shelter. Beatrice Hester said in an FBI statement of 11-25-63 said she was standing south side of Elm Street. “…Mrs. HESTER advised she heard two loud noises which sounded like gunshots, and she saw president KENNEDY slump in the seat of the car he was riding in. Her husband then grabbed her and shoved her to the ground. Shortly thereafter they went across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter...” Charles Hester said much the same as his wife in a FBI statement of 11-25-63 about being on the south side of Elm Street. “…HESTER stated he saw the President slump in the seat of the car and that he heard two shots fired drom what appeared to be a building located on the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street. He Stated he and his wife were almost in a direct line of the fire and he immediately grabbed his wife and shoved her to the ground. He stated hethereafter immediately escorted his wife across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter... “ If this is true the people identified as Hesters are not the Hesters in this Bronson frame. The situation worsens when you realize there is no one on the south side of Elm to identify as Hesters. This is a sure sign of photo alteration and witness tampering. Newmans and Chisms: The next problem involves the identification of Bill and Gayle Newman and John and Faye Chism. These two couples should be easy to identify in any photo or film. The Newmans have two children with them and the Chisms have one. That’s not the case in this Bronson frame. The two couples that are supposedly the Newmans and the Chisms each have only one child. Neither of the two women shown are holding a smaller child who would not be able to walk. The people identified as Chisms has the woman holding a camera and taking a photo. What happened to her camera and film? Mannequin Row: In the Zapruder film there are 19 people standing between the R L Thornton freeway sign and the Stemmons freeway sign. Most of those 19 people are not shown in this Bronson frame. Umbrella Man and Latin Man: The problem here may not be a problem depending on how one sees that these two people are shown in the Zapruder film. In Bronson this pair seems to be behind the Stemmons sign. But, this may simply be camera angle differences. Presidential Limousine: The limousine is approaching the position where the first shot is about to happen or has already happened to some which is pretty much the official story. This scene nullifies the statement of Bill Newman on 11-22-63 and the Hesters as already discussed. Bill Newman said on 11-22-63: “…Today at about 12:45 pm I was standing in a group of people on Elm Street near the west end of the concrete standard when the President's car turned left off Houston Street onto Elm Street…” And, “…Then the car sped away and everybody in that area had run upon [sic] top of that little mound. I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb…” These two statements put Bill Newman at the corner of the TSBD where the “concrete standard” is. The “garden” behind Newman is the Pergola or Arcade as called by others. Recognizable People: On the south side of Elm Street is a recognizable people such as Mary Moormna, Jean Hill, Toni Foster, the Brehms, and the Babushka Lady. Unrecognized People: There are 9 people I put question marks on hoping someone can identify who they are. The overall question is can this Bronson frame be considered real and trustworthy or altered and not trustworthy? Is our interpretation of some the elements correct or not correct?

Thank Steve, As soon as I saw it I remembered. My poor old brain has a bad habit of not keeping track of things I don't use on a regular basis. Or, haven't quite figured what to do with. Doris Munford. Thanks again. I can't really specify what I see wrong with Munford. Is she a cut and paste figure in that location due to some of the lines of her form are too straight and too long suggesting something unnatural or is it I think she is in different places in different photos and films before or after the Stemmons sign. There is a low probability that I might be right but, it is not defensible due to the time element. There are a lot of (should say many) people in Dealey Plaza whose exact position can't be verified. The Hesters are two. Their statements place them on the north side of Elm and the south side of Elm. As a couple they are not consistent. I do remember reading old threads on these people that I think were never really resolved. The time period is roughly 2006 with Jack White's Mystery Witnesses. I searched for info here on the Chisms and received several hits with interesting info which Jack's thread one of them. The Chisms were interesting to me because their statements can be read as them hearing shots when the presidential limousine was at the SW corner of the TSBD. They were interesting also because they are among the small number of witnesses that saw Kennedy standing as the limo turned into the Elm / Houston intersection or shortly thereafter. Those early threads had to do with identifying whose who in the photos and films involving Newmans and Chisms. A simple way to determine is their children. The Newmans have two and the Chisms have one. But, then you run into the Bronson frame showing what I think is two couples with one child in different locations in the same frame that could be the Chisms.

I posted on this some time back about a month or so. Things have not gotten any better. In fact they have gotten worse. I am practically at a standstill trying to research any area of the Kennedy Assassination. What I get is mainly Lone Nut sites, unrelated material, or Kennedy information that has little to do with the research question. An example, I am to lazy to look through all the files I have to find out who was the lady sitting in the grass near the Grassy Knoll after the assassination. (I've forgotten her name more than once because I haven't found a way to say what I want about her. She is an important figure that I feel has been altered or placed there for effect but, I can't really find a reasonable way to express what I am seeing). A quick search on the net should have produced the answer. I have done this before and obtained an answer which is in my files. And, now nothing vaguely related to the question. As far as other search engines I have found them less than Google. More correctly, less than what Google used to be. Now, it is a different tune.

Bart is right. There is nothing wrong with the files. I used a free downloadable app on the net called 7zip to unzip the files. It is an easy app to use. BTW, thanks Bart. Good source.

Further research has yielded the notion that almost all of the witnesses said nothing about where the vehicle slowed or stopped. It didn't seem to be a good question or an important one to the authorities or the witnesses. Or, was what they said edited to where the witnesses saw the limousine stop. It makes a difference whether the stoppage or slowing occurred in the intersection, in front of the TSBD, or down in front of the Grassy Knoll. There is no evidence of tampering so far. Out of 59 witnesses only a few said anything about where the presidential limousine slowed or stopped. Is that suspicious or not? Here's what I have found relating to where the vehicle slowed or stopped: Where did the vehicle stop or slow? Analysis of Vince Palamara’s witness compilation: “59 witnesses – Delay on Elm St.”1 by Andrew Mason 10) DPD Earle Brown---" The first I noticed the [JFK's] car was when it stopped..after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped." [6 H 233];[This quote is incomplete and misleading. He actually said, on further questioning, that he was not sure whether it actually stopped or just slowed: Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop? Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to. Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some? Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down. 14) DPD motorcycle officer B.J. Martin (one of the four Presidential motorcyclists)---saw JFK's car stop " just for a moment." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 71]; [not a statement close to events] [not independently taken or reported] [In his WC testimony, Martin said it was moving the entire time. 6 H 291 : Mr. BALL. And then the block between Main and Elm, did the motorcade slow down? Mr. MARTIN. It slowed down just before we made the turn onto Elm Street. Mr. BALL. Let’s take the President’s car-what do you think the speed of the President’s car was as you made that turn from Houston onto Elm? Mr. MARTIN. I believe the speed was about 4 or 5 miles an hour. Mr. BALL. What was your speed? Mr. MARTIN. Approximately the same-maybe a mile slower. Mr. BALL. Were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler motorcycle? Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir ; I believe I did. 5 Mr. BALL. What is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the position of that motorcycle? Mr. MARTIN. About 2 miles per hour, I would imagine. Mr. BALL. Did the President’s car pick up any speed from the corner Of Houston and Elm-we’ll say half way down that hill? Mr. MARTIN. No, sir ; I don’t recall it picking up any speed in there. Mr. BALL. They were going fairly slow? Mr. MARTIN. It may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that I could notice. 35) TSBD Supervisor Roy Truly---after the first shot " I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in the area [it stopped] for a second or two or something like that I just saw it stop." [3 H 221, 266]; The complete quote is: 3 H 226: Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind. The President’s-I saw the President’s car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out-there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front-they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the flrst step on the entrance of our building. Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President’s car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop? Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn’t see- I just saw it stop. I don’t know. I didn’t see it start up. 36) L.P. Terry---" The parade stopped right in front of the building [TSBD]." ["Crossfire" by Jim Marrs (1989), p. 26]; ]; [not a statement close to events][not clear that L.P. Terry was a witness – not mentioned in any other reports][Does not refer to specifically the limo stopping] [not independently taken or reported] 38) Peggy Joyce Hawkins---she was on the front steps of the TSBD and " estimated that the President's car was less than 50 feet away from her when he was shot, that the car slowed down almost coming to a full stop." ["Murder From Within" by Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams (1974), p. 97];The quote is from Peggy Hawkins’ statement 3/26/64 to the FBI: CD897. i.e. Newcomb and Adams is not the original source. Where the presidential limousine slowed or stopped when shooting occurred is related to the question where was the presidential limousine when you the witness heard shooting. It is an important question. Many witnesses say the shooting occurred in front of the TSBD and in the intersection of Main and Houston. Strange answers when almost everybody else uses the Zapruder film and other films and photos to place the shooting and slow down or stop in front of the Grassy Knoll or X marks the spot.

Does anyone know where the limousine slowed down or stopped? I just looked at Vince Palamara's updated list of witnesses (55 witnesses): "Fifty-nine Witnesses: Delay on Elm Street By Vince Palamara Updated 1998 edition (based off the original 1991 article "47 Witnesses" that appeared in The Third Decade, Jan/ March 1992)" And, the witnesses don't say where the limousine stopped in that article. What choices could there be for where the limousine slowed or stopped? 1. Intersection of Houston and Elm / TSBD front- based on Roy Truly statement 2. Before Robert Groden's X marks the spot 3. After Robert Groden's X marks the spot 4. Grassy Knoll / Mary Moorman and Jean Hill Can you name any others?

Elsie Dorman was a 57 years old employee employed in a clerical position at the Scott-Foresman Co. in the TSBD on the day of the assassination. Her FBI statement of 11-24-63 stated she was in the 4th floor offices of Scott-Forseman, seated on the floor with the windows open filming the motorcade, when it first appeared on Houston Street. In her March 20, 1964 statement for the WC she said she was using her husband’s camera and was not too familiar with its operation. This has led some to state she was a horrible photographer and was the worst photographer that day. That is simply not true. What was later done by the government to her film made her such a poor bumbling photographer. Nothing she did at all produced the extremely altered mess called the Dorman Film. She is not responsible for the altered, black painted, and blackened out imagery in the film. It is so all pervasive that nothing of importance can be seen in the film on Houston Street. When matched with the alterations of Altgens 5, this makes a mysterious, suspicious situation which needs more investigation. One can not compare the Zapruder film to the Dorman film. The imagery is not the same. There are more people in Dorman on the SW corner of the Houston and Elm Street intersection than in the Zapruder film. There are missing people in the Zapruder film when compared to Dorman. For instance, Phil Willis is not seen at all. Another, is in the Zapruder film you do not see Pierce Allman and Terry Ford photographing the motorcade. But, you do in the Dorman film. The sequence of Linda and Rosemary Willis differs in the two films. About the only thing I see that rings true are the frames that show Tina Turner and her family. I have worked on the Dorman film many times. And, each time I do I come away with the impression that the Dorman film was half way altered. In other words, the job of altering the film was abandoned and not completed. Throughout the film people are blacked out with black paint and their image becomes unidentifiable. This is particularly true in the frames involving Houston Street. My thought is that there were no images available to replace with overlay images the blackened out images in the film. The film was filmed from the 4th floor of the TSBD and there could have been perspective and angle problems in matching up images from elsewhere. So, they just left the blackened out images knowing no one would ever be able to seen what had really happened. Then get your shills to blame Elsie as the worst photographer ever. This is one of the problems I have worked on for some time. Why were so many of the films that show the intersection of Main and Houston, plus scenes on Houston Street, altered. Why is there a Zapruder gap? Why do 8 assassination films have skipped frames when the presidential limousine passes the Court Records Building? Do you ever wonder what the odds are that that would occur naturally? What is being covered up? I’ve prepared a gif that discusses some of the problems with the film. Each frame lasts 7 seconds which I think is enough time to read the questions.

RAY MITCHAM SAID: Only two people said they saw Oswald carrying a package. Frazier and his sister. Good point Ray. Mary Hollies said later after about 50 years that she saw Oswald on the elevator with a large package he said was fishing rods. But, she lied about this in the beginning so why should one believe her later statements concerning Oswald. Derek Thibeult said: I think I have read and seen enough on Buell Wesley Frazier though, and I believe that he's honest. He has stuck to his story that the package Oswald had fit between LHO's cupped hand and LHO's armpit. If that's true, it couldn't have been the entire disassembled rifle. So, was it part of the rifle, part of another rifle, another weapon, part of another weapon, another object, or just an unusually long sandwich? I don't know. My answer is a camera. A large camera in a two handed camera mount. Most folks don't pay attention to my musings because there is not any firm evidence to suggest it. And, is easily put into problematic status when some one asks what happened to the camera. I base my camera notion on Frazier saying the paper bag was about 22 to 24 inches in length. I believe large grocery bags of that era were about 18 inches. This could easily hold a camera of about 12 inches including mount handles. The mount handles are the reason Prayer Man's hands are always in a certain configuration. The only other evidence is visual images from 3 films. These films are difficult to evaluate due to be at a distance or too blurry or distorted calling into question most of what is said about Prayer Man at the TSBD. The films are: John Martin Dave Wiegman Malcom Couch/Darnell

You can take all the photos you want of this or that notion. You can calculate firing angles from the 6th floor Sniper's Nest forever. But, you still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Oswald was on the 6th floor and shots were fired from there. And, you can't do that at all. Chief Jesse Curry said he could not put Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand. If it ever came to trial this would be a powerful statement. Oswald had to die to keep people from saying things like that. The 8 out of 10 of the closest witnesses (people in the TSBD) who were within 40 feet of the Sniper's Nest (about the distance across the average American home) said the shots came from some other place than the Sniper's Nest. This would establish reasonable doubt and Oswald would walk. Another reason Oswald had to die. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St. He changed that later but, consistently said the shots came from above. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office statement 11-22-63: First, said he heard two shots when the presidential limo turned onto Houston. Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that to 3 shots. Williams said the shots came from above. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Commission testimony: At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman about hearing a shot from above. He later changed his testimony at the Warren Hearing to hearing shots from low and to the left. Elsie Dorman- FBI statement 11-24-63: She thought the shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information. However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots. Reference: Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin. Vickie Adams- FBI statement 11-24-63: She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection she heard 3 shots. Her view was obstructed by trees. The sound came from the west or right side of the building. Dorothy Garner- FBI statement 3-20-64: When the shots occured the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. She thought the shots came from the west. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection. Betty Alice Foster- FBI statement 3-19-64: She was with Mary Hollies. She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St. Steven Wilson- FBI statement 3-30-63: He said his view was obstructed by trees and heard 3 distinct shots. FBI Statement 3-25-64: The shots came from the west. And, there are many other witnesses who said something different to what the official story of the WC. Reasonable doubt would be established and Oswald if he lived would have walked.

DiEugenio says: "Everyone knows that in the declassified HSCA interview Duran said that the man was about 5' 5" tall. And I already noted that." This is my candidate for any short Oswald sightings. If you analyze the height differences in the two photos the Oswald figure with the red arrow point is about 5 foot 5 or 6. He looks to be to much like LHO to be seen in Mexico City.

Ron, Good point and well said.

Denny, This comes under the heading of More Musings. I believe that Lyndon Johnson's desire to be president was not enough to trigger the assassination. What could be involved that the Executive Branch thought Kennedy had to go? I believe they saw him as a threat to the country and a threat to their interests. There may have been real or manufactured evidence suggesting that President Kennedy was becoming an agent of the Soviet Union. HIs actions in office towards Cuba and Viet Nam may have aggravated this notion. I don't really see anything else that would get everyone on board. I see my "favorite president" as being the kind to manufacture evidence and further widen the rift between Kennedy and the CIA and the Joint Chiefs. I don't believe he had a great deal of trouble convincing his neighbor to go along and he had helped the then current Secret Service Chief obtain his position.

Where is the neck wound in the autopsy photo? Can you identify the T3 wound? And, a magnification of the Jfk back wound(s):

Dancing in tutus? Or, at least tutu for wear is rumored.

Duh? Does the photo showing Arlen Specter and his bullet angle mean that Kennedy was shot twice in the back? He had another wound further down in the back demonstrated in other photos. Check Josephs' post, it has the idea graphically represented.

More Musings: I have always believed that the assassination of President Kennedy was an Executive Branch decision. The cover up wouldn't work unless all were involved. Vice President Johnson has never been given sufficient recognition for his role as the leader of the various groups in the Executive Branch in the assassination and the cover up.

Steve, There is something going on here with Emmett Hudson. What you point out is something of interest. Adam Johnson posts a likely scenario, speculative but believable. No one asked Hudson how he knew Oswald. That would have been interesting. Is this a well known fact that Hudson knew Oswald? Or, is this another hidden fact hid from researchers? From what you said it must have been hidden for years. I have noticed some witnesses will go along with the official WC/FBI story but, will retain some thing that is contrary to the story. In Hudson's case is that the shots came from behind and not from the TSBD. Mary Moorman, as an example, retained that part of her story that said the first shot was the head shot and 3 more followed. Is Emmett Hudson another Dealey Plaza mystery without a solution. If you examine the frames and photos I posted then you will understand there is a mystery. I would not have thought a Phil Willis photo could provide much of any value at all. But, Willis 7 does show two shadowed figures, one sitting and one standing, on the mid section of the steps leading uphill. The Martin film shows 2 figures sitting. This agrees more with Hudson's early testimony and not his later. His later testimony is shown in other frames and photos. A mystery for sure. Outside of knowing Oswald and shots from the rear I don't know what would cause the effort to obfuscate Emmett Hudson to the point he is not creditable.

Thanks David, I can live with simple if I have to. I use to argue with folks on just how sharp Occam's Razor really was. But, I don't even have the simplest of competing theories to look at here. Sometimes the simplest answer is not necessarily the answer. Sure, Hudson toes the official line until he talks about where the shots came from. Is that enough to have what shows up in the in the various films and photos? Nobody on the steps, 2 men sitting, 2 men, one sitting and one standing, 2 men standing and then 3 men standing with one vanishing into the shadows and then 3 men standing. There should be some sort of answer for the variance.

Is Emmett Hudson a reliable or unreliable witness? This has been a serious topic here several times and discussed by many good people. Emmett Hudson is one of the men standing on the steps by the Grassy Knoll monument area in various films and photos. The problem is his testimony doesn’t match what various films and photos show. I feel kind of like William Munney’s (Clint Eastwood) kids left behind on the farm to sort out the hogs. I tend to favor the first statements made to the authorities rather than later ones. It has been my experience that the first statements made on 11-22-63 are the most reliable. Here is what Emmett Hudson first said on 11-22-63. He said there were initially two men, himself and one other, sitting midway down the steps and later laying down when two more shots were fired. There is some evidence for two men sitting but, not laying down in the grass. My problem is that there are other photos and films showing 3 men standing on the steps rather than sitting or laying down. How to sort this out? The Bell Film shows no one on the steps: 2. The Zapruder Film does not show any men standing on the steps at the Grassy Knoll. I have looked at this several times and have not seen any men standing there. Now, they could be sitting or laying down and missed that way. Bill Newman and family are not in the film either and they should be. Another Zapruder missing person is the Babushka Lady. 3. The Martin Film has two men sitting on the steps in the shadows. I speculate this could be what the problem is. Two men are blocked out by shadows so that 3 men can be placed out and lower down on the steps in the sunlight. Why would some photo editor do this? I don’t have a clue. This is not really that clear. 4. The Phil Willis photos 5 and 7 show men on the steps. Willis 5 shows two men standing on the steps. There is some argument that the light pole hides another but, I don’t see it in a blow up. 5. Willis 7 shows two men on the steps, one sitting and one standing. They are in the shadows in the upper part of the stairs. 6. The Nix Film has 3 men on the steps. Two are standing in the sunlight and another is vanishing into the shadows on the steps. So, depending on what frame you are looking at you can have two or three men on the steps. The tree shadows in Nix are wrong. They move in different directions. This is to obscure the upper part of the steps. 7. The Muchmore Film shows in various frames 3 men standing on the lower part of the steps in the sunlight. The appearance of these men pretty much match the Moorman Polaroid scene. 8. The Moorman Polaroid has 3 men standing on the lower part of the steps in the sunlight. The above shows the different combinations of men sitting, standing, and laying in the grass or not as related by Emmett Hudson. From the Warren Commission interrogation various passages have been excerpted: “Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot. Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?” Some months after his 1st statements Hudson adjusts his statements to match the photos, etc. of him standing with others. … But, he continues with the notion of laying on the ground for which there is no evidence for that I know. “Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot? Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.” But, all of this concerns only two men. David Josephs had this to contribute in 2010. “Mr. LIEBELER - How could you tell that? Posted September 29, 2010 Thanks Bernice... I agree that Hudson does talk about the other 2 men with him.... there are no images of him sitting there with them, or the younger man, prior to willis5. Yet no one asks him how he gets from the tool shed to the stairs or if he passes anyone enroute... He'd have to walk right past BMD's position. I've also been told that he actually IS in willis5, better versions of the photo make it more apparent yet I have seen no post of any image that indicates Hudson is indeed there. Even a close examination of willis 5 in TKoaAP does not make it appear as if he's there. If Don is around, I would love to know why he concludes Hudson was not there at z202 beyond the obvious - he's not in the photo. DJ” Taking Josephs at his word there is evidence that Hudson talked of 3 men being on the steps in contradiction of the two statements he made above talking about two men and there was no mention of a third. This is something that has bothered me for several years. Were there two men or three men or now with new evidence none on the steps? Were there two men on the upper part of the steps blocked out and 3 men inserted into the various films? And, what was the purpose of that?

I changed my earlier statement on Marina to this is order to clarify what I was thinking: Members 619 posts Gender:Male Report post Posted Saturday at 10:26 AM (edited) Marina Oswald- Soviet Agent --------> Double Agent ------------> Triple Agent/Double Agent. Soviet Agent- Marry American in order to get to the US , doesn't matter who she marries (Webster?) but, ends up with Oswald(s) Double Agent- Go over to the US and support Oswald in Russia in the Project Oswald/defection/spy plan and have multiple Oswald husbands Triple Agent/Double Agent- On gaining access to the US revert to Soviet Agent Status to monitor Oswald and other agents. After the assassination say whatever was needed to remain in the US and keep the Soviets out of it. Was Marina a Soviet Agent willing to "prostitute" herself for the greater glories of the state and communism? A good soldier? This is what I think or speculate.

Marina Oswald- Soviet Agent --------> Double Agent ------------> Triple Agent/Double Agent. Soviet Agent- Marry American in order to get to the US , doesn't matter who she marries (Webster?) but, ends up with Oswald(s) Double Agent- Go over to the US and support Oswald in Russia in the Project Oswald/defection/spy plan and have multiple Oswald husbands Triple Agent/Double Agent- On gaining access to the US revert to Soviet Agent Status to monitor Oswald and other agents. After the assassination say whatever was needed to remain in the US. Was Marina a Soviet Agent willing to "prostitute" herself for the greater glories of the state and communism? A good soldier? This is what I think or speculate.

Not all has been said about the turn onto Elm Street. The turn on Elm Street by the presidential limo happens during the Zapruder Gap and lasts at least 14-15 seconds or more. We don’t get to see what happens there even though Zapruder said he filmed it or said he didn’t turn his camera off. I am always astounded by the notion that no one sees the viewing perspective of the presidential limousine as I do. It does not seem important to other people that we only get to see the right or passenger side of the vehicle in one film (Zapruder) for decades and two photographers (Weaver and Skaggs). No one photographed the vehicle from the passenger side on Houston and Elm. Truly amazing. And, only one person on Main as the vehicle approached Dealey Plaza. If you survey the available visual record you can find at least 35+ photographers who are unknown. I wonder where their film vanished too. There is an additional right-side view of the limousine on Main in the AMIPA film. This film wasn’t published until 2004. That’s 41 years before it was seen by the public and nearly all of the theorizing about the Kennedy Assassination had already occurred. There are ways to look into the Zapruder Gap and one of these is the Tina Towner film. The Tina Towner film is the only assassination film to show the turn onto Elm Street and the passage of the presidential limo past the TSBD. Others will show you brief vague, often distorted views of the presidential limousine in the intersection and front of the TSBD. We are told see nothing happened there and the Towner film proves that. It is made to counter critics of the other films saying that they skip or don’t clearly show anything concerning the presidential limousine in front of the TSBD. Little else does with the exception of Phil Willis and Robert Croft. Croft shows only the presidential limousine past the TSBD doorway and not the turn onto Elm while Willis shows a close up of the limo and little else. If you were Croft, Betzner, or Willis, wouldn’t you take a pic of the limousine turning into the intersection. In other words wouldn’t you take a photo of the president at his first appearance and then later ones. The Towner film is a badly done animation. The others make a mockery of films and photos in showing nothing for various reasons or another. I don’t accept that. The presidential limo seems to float through the turn onto Elm with no problems. We don’t see in that turn what many witnesses saw that contradict the film. The imagery of the film is poorly done as I will attempt to show in the following frames. First, we have a scene where the limo and crew sail past the Court Records Building in their turn onto Elm Street. From the following frame or others, if you just showed the CRB alone, you would not be able to recognize the building shown as the CRB. At the distance Towner filmed you should clearly see the CRB and all its details. You can see windows on buildings way to the east on Elm Street but, no windows on the CRB. And, then there is this scene which I have posted before. The “hit X” frame: Some will claim this is not writing but simply a film defect. You never see this frame in a normal run. You need to look at the film frame by frame to see this and other similar markings. This says to me that the JFK assassination happened in the Zapruder Gap and selected scenes from the Gap were moved down to the Grassy Knoll area so that the Patsy could be framed. The next frame has notes. The frame also suggests alteration with material from another time and film added to the Towner film. I will list them in case they are hard to read. We can see in the doorway the white hats of Dallas Policemen. This indicates that part of the scene occurred after the assassination. Kennedy’s head shadow is a rectangular black patch hiding his head wound. In the doorway, where is the group of people we see in other photos such as Altgens 6? They should be seen clearly. Tina was not standing directly across from the TSBD doorway. There are more examples of alteration present in the film but, these should serve to make the point of the Towner films worthiness.