John Butler

The language in the 2-3-64 handwritten statement by Richard Carr does not seem to be the language of a construction worker. Rather, it seems that it could be the language of a better educated person say, a FBI agent. The story, as written flows, as if it had been practiced or dictated. The language pattern is that of an educated person. In mitigation, the educational system of the US was more effective in educating people of that era then it is today. Regardless, the description there varies greatly from what is testified to by Carr at the Clay Shaw Trial which ended in March, 1969. The location of the vehicle, the number of people involved, their race or ethnicity, and what floor the hatted man was on are different. These differences seem greater than a simple memory lapse or, confusion brought on by time and tide. Jim Marrs noted that Carr in a taped interview said the following: Carr’s statements at the Clay Shaw trial differ radically, in my opinion, from years earlier FBI statements. From the Shaw Trial: ” Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.” Based on this, I conclude that the later statements by Carr at the Clay Shaw Trial are more truthful and explain what Carr actually saw without interference from the FBI. The events that happened to Carr over time indicate that someone was really interested in what he said and wanted to keep it in tune with his FBI statements to the point of his death.

This is from the Clay Shaw trial in 1969. It makes everything clear as mud when compared to Bart's handwritten info. Carr said, "Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.” I don't disagree with Bart's info, the hand written copy. It verifies the FBI statement. The difference between the two Rambler events described in the FBI statements and the trial statements is significant and needs an explanation. Jim Hargrove's notion is time and distance has distorted Carr's recollections of the event. And, J. Edgar Hoover had no reason to change the testimony. Hoover and his henchmen, being the master cover up specialists, in my mind are always doubtful. Bart's hand written statement by Carr does throw a monkey wrench into the gears. But, after re-reading Jim Marrs I see no reason to doubt what Carr said at the Clay Shaw trial either. Carr, in Crossfire tells you what his relationship to the FBI was and the hardships he suffered for saying Lee Harvey Oswald was not the man on the 6th floor. From the Shaw Trial: ” Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. [This is comment is mine. This is a total of 4 men at the Nash Rambler parked by the TSBD. 3 from the TSBD, a Latin driver, and no sign of a young negro driver. They pickup an Oswald on Elm Street and this makes a possible 4 man team on the 6th floor. Others could be added such as the driver, whoever arranged boxes, and manipulated the power, others of your choice.] The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.”

Jim, What do I think? I think Richard Randolph Carr was lucky to survive the Warren Commission and HSCA era. In Jim Marrs’ Crossfire, 2013 ed, on page 308-309 is interesting information that can be related to what you are asking me. According to what Marrs wrote in Crossfire, Richard Carr was an honest and upright person who was not intimidated or coerced by the FBI. According to Marrs in a taped interview, Carr had this kind of relationship with the FBI: Carr moved to Wyoming after repeated harassment. There he was shot at and found dynamite in his Carr. After testifying at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 he was attacked and stabbed in the back in Atlanta, Georgia. He only survived because he killed his attacker. “No doubt anything coming out of the FBI in this case has to be approached warily, but I really see no reason for Hoover to have faked this version. What do you think?” I think Carr’s FBI statement of 2/4/64 was manipulated and changed. Particularly, in the areas that disagree with his statements at the Shaw trial. I believe there were things that Carr knew that J. Edgar and his hencemen did not want the public to know. As an example the man Carr saw was moved from the 6th floor to the 5th floor. The story of the Nash Rambler’s location that doesn’t match is another. There were 4 men at one time at the Nash Rambler rather than 1 and there was no young negro involved simply a dark complected man possibly a Latin. What happened to Carr after the assassination advances the notion that there was things that he saw and knew that was not acceptable to the authorities. The FBI couldn’t control him. He was turned over to the assassins.

Jim, John Armstrong should reconsider his information on Richard Carr. There are several things in the "Escape from the 6th floor plan" that is different from his testimony at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969. Compare what John wrote with the portions of the trial transcript I provide below. He may want to look at this and include it in his essay. John Armstrong said: “Richard Randolph Carr saw a man looking out the top floor of the Book Depository moments before the shooting. Carr, like Carolyn Walther, said the man was wearing a light brown coat. He described the man as having an athletic build, wearing horn rim glasses, and a hat. A few minutes after the assassination Carr saw the same man walking toward him on Houston, constantly looking back over his shoulder. The man turned east on Commerce St, walked one block to Record St., and got into a 1961 or 1962 light colored Nash Rambler station wagon. I believe the man wearing the brown coat drove this vehicle north on Record St., turned left on Elm, and stopped in front of the grassy knoll. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig saw the Nash Rambler stop, heard a loud whistle, and watched as LEE Oswald hurried down the grassy knoll and got into this car at 12:40 PM. This incident occurred at the same time that HARVEY Oswald (the man accused of killing President Kennedy) was riding on a city bus, driven by Cecil McWatters, several blocks east of the Book Depository. LEE Oswald (white shirt) and the man wearing the brown jacket were seen together on the 6th floor of the TSBD (circa 12:30 PM). Ten minutes later (circa 12:40 PM) they were together in the Nash Rambler station wagon as the car quickly left Dealy Plaza.” This information provided by John Armstrong is different from the testimony of Richard Carr at the Clay Shaw trial in 1969. The number of people Carr saw and where he saw the Nash Rambler differs from what Armstrong provides. Perhaps, Armstrong should consider reading the trial transcript for Richard Carr. “A: Yes, I was on the Seventh Floor of the New Courthouse Building that was under con- struction at that time, located on Houston and Commerce, facing Dealey Plaza. Q: Approximately what time were you on the Seventh Floor of that building facing Dealey Plaza? A: Sir, I can't recall the exact time, but it was at the time that the parade was coming down towards Dealey Plaza. I did not have a watch at the time. Q: Were you in a position where you could see the parade? A: Yes, sir. Q: Do you recall seeing anything unusual happening? A: Yes, I do. Q: Would you tell us what happened. A: At the time the parade came down towards -- going to the School Book Depository, Dealey Plaza would have been to my left where I was standing, and at the Fifth Floor of the School Book Depository I noticed a man at the third window, this man was dressed -- he had on a light hat, and I saw this man later going down Houston Street, to the corner of Commerce, and then turned toward town on Commerce, and at that time before this happened I heard a single shot which sounded like a small arms, maybe a pistol, and I immediately, immediately there was a slight pause and immediately after that I heard three rifle shots in succession, they seemed to be fired from an automatic rifle and they came – “ ” Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. (this is a total of 4 men at the Nash Rambler parked by the TSBD) The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. Q: Now, Mr. Carr, did you have occasion to give this information to any law enforcement agencies? A: Yes, I did.”

As we know an Oswald gets picked up on Elm Street. Let's count people. Two men noticed for sure on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. Add, one black man as a possibility to the list. A black man is not described as a member of the 3 man group. One of the three men walks up Houston towards Main. 2 men get in the station wagon with the Latin. One man is picked up on Elm. Our count should equal 6 men. 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + a -1. Now if you add the possibility of 1 or two extra men from the TSBD to control lights and elevators and provide watch security for the assassination team you could have as many as 7 or more men involved. The Oswald double is counted at the end as a minus one. My count here doesn't seem right. Let's try again. 1. Two men in the Sniper's Nest seen by many. 2 2. The possibility of a third, a back man. 1 3. 3 men come from behind the TSBD and two of which get into a Nash Rambler with a third man, a Latin. 3 4. 1 man proceeds down Houston toward Main St. That's a total of 7: One of the 3 men one is seen on the 5th floor. And, an Oswald is picked up on Elm Street. These are not counted because they are represented in the earlies count numbers 1-4. If you add 1 or 2 men as helpers from the TSBD for extra duties then the count goes to 8 or 9 men in the assassination team. There are others seen on the 6th floor down by the west end of the building. That would make an even larger team. Or, two teams possibly.

I have been arguing for a larger than 2 man assassination team in the Sniper's Nest by including the possibility that there was black man there according to Amos Euins. I believe the team was larger and that's why it was necessary to use the passenger elevator as an escape route. Richard Carr didn't notice one man leaving the TSBD by the rear of the building as James Worrell did. He noticed 3. Two got into the Nash Rambler and 1 proceeded to walk towards Main Street in a hurry looking backwards. From the Clay Shaw trial in 1969 comes the following: Q: And at the same time you were looking up towards the Texas Book Depository seeing three men come out from behind it. Is that right? A: Do you see these dots on this -- Q: Would you answer my question and then explain, please, sir. I say would you answer the question and then explain. A: Yes, I will answer your question, repeat it, please. THE COURT: Mr. Carr, when a question is put to you, you can answer it yes or no, but you have a right to explain your answer so you cannot be cut off, so if you wish to explain the answer, you are permitted by law to do so. (Whereupon, the question was read back by the Reporter.) A: Yes, that's right. BY MR. DYMOND: Q: And also at the same time you were watching the man whom you say you had seen on the Fifth Floor of the Book Depository walk on Houston Street towards Main. Is that right? *** THE COURT: You may explain. A: The same man that I saw here in this window was with the three men that I told you a minute ago, they came out from behind the School Book Depository, got in the station wagon, one man crossed the street and then came down this side of Houston Street and turned onto Commerce Street. More interesting stuff: Q: You can go on and tell us what you observed, tell us what you observed and what you heard. A: All right. As I stated before, I noticed this fellow in the window, and this gentleman, the pipefitter and myself, he made the statement to -- MR. DYMOND: I object to what the man made a statement concerning. BY MR. GARRISON: Q: You can say what you said. A: I thought he was a Secret Agent man or an FBI man. Q: What did the man in the window look like? A: He had on a hat, a felt hat, a light hat, he had on heavy-rimmed glasses, dark, the glasses were heavy-rimmed, and heavy ear pieces on his glasses. Q: Go ahead. A: He had on a tie, he had on a light shirt, a tan sport coat. ** Q: Now, after the shots, did you notice any movement of any kind -- A: Yes, I did. Q: -- as unusual, that was unusual? A: Yes, I did. Q: Would you tell us what you observed. A: Should I point it out, sir? Q: Yes. A: At this point right here, at this School Book Depository there was a Rambler Station Wagon there with a rack on the back, built on the top of this. Q: Which way was the station wagon facing? A: It was parked on the wrong side of the street, next to the School Book Depository heading north. and, Q: North being the top of the photomap, north is the top as you have indicated? A: North is the top, and it was headed in this direction towards the railroad tracks, and immediately after the shooting there was three men that emerged from behind the School Book Depository, there was a Latin, I can't say whether he was Spanish, Cuban, but he was real dark-complected, stepped out and opened the door, there was two men entered that station wagon, and the Latin drove it north on Houston. The car was in motion before the rear door was closed, and this one man got in the front, and then he slid in from the -- from the driver's side over, and the Latin got back and they proceeded north and it was moving before the rear door was closed, and the other man that I described to you being in this window which would have been one, two, the third window over here came across the street, he came down, coming towards the construction site on Houston Street, to Commerce, in a very big hurry, he came to Commerce Street and he turned toward town on Commerce Street and every once in a while he would look over his shoulder as if he was being followed. As we know an Oswald gets picked up on Elm Street. Let's count people. Two men noticed for sure on the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. Add, one black man as a possibility to the list. A black man is not described as a member of the 3 man group. One of the three men walks up Houston towards Main. 2 men get in the station wagon with the Latin. One man is picked up on Elm. Our count should equal 6 men. 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 + a -1. Now if you add the possibility of 1 or two extra men from the TSBD to control lights and elevators and provide watch security for the assassination team you could have as many as 7 or more men involved. The Oswald double is counted at the end as a minus one.

Jim, I think that a lot of people think the two are the same. Or, at least that is the impression I get from reading about what people say about witnesses to people on the 6th floor. Under suspicion are Lee Oswald and Malcom Wallace for various reasons. There is a fairly good thread going back to 2005 on witnesses that saw something on the 6th floor: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/3524-witnesses-to-window-shooters/ Witness to Window Shooters and, from that comes a good list of people that saw something: Greg Wagner Advanced Member Members 355 posts Gender:Male Report post Posted April 19, 2018 (edited) I have compiled this list of people who claim to have witnessed activity in upper floor windows of the TSBD near the time of the assassination. Are there any others I may have missed? Thank you! Howard Brennan Richard Carr Malcom Couch James Crawford Tom Dillard Robert Edwards Amos Euins Ronald Fischer Ruby Henderson Robert Jackson John Powell Jeraldean Reid Arnold Rowland Barbara Rowland James Underwood Carolyn Walter James Worrell Edited April 20, 2018 by Greg Wagner Working on another project I have read all of the testimonies of the above but, mostly are now dim recollections. I am going to reread those testimonies. If there is answer to your question it should be found in the testimonies of these witnesses and what people think to form a consensus. I wouldn't worry about letting this thread go. It will come back in some other form or another. People can't seem to let go of what happened 3 minutes after the assassination involving Prayerman, escape from the TSBD, shooters on the 6th floor, what the witnesses said, what the various films show, etc. I have posted the other project I am working on but, failed to include backup evidence for what I was saying about the witnesses. The idea is so strange and foreign to most that the thread didn't go far. I intend to repost that thread and include what the witnesses said and where what they said came from. It is an interesting idea and challenges nearly everything seen and talked about occurring around the Grassy Knoll and the TSBD. It presents a different view or alternate reality for what people saw and heard occurring in front of the TSBD. The list of witnesses is greater than 50 witnesses saying something different occurred than what most people believe.

There is nothing to argue about with what you have said. You have summed up nicely. Realistically, there is no good evidence for any route out of the TSBD. By implication if someone is seen on the street and thought to have been on the 6th floor then they would have had to exit the TSBD somehow. There's only two ways to do that, the first floor exits or the fire escape. The elevators seem to be a focus with people noticing what was going on with both freight and passenger elevators on the first floor. To avoid that one could ride an elevator to the basement and then come up the basement stairs to exit the first floor. It seems to me that if you were a TSBD employee you would not be as noticed or remembered if you came up to the 1st floor from the basement. Maybe. I don't know about a stranger to the building. I think a stranger would be noticed. Would someone like Mac Wallace be considered a stranger? There is an Oswald and a double at the TSBD if you credit Roger Craig's story and other witnesses. He wouldn't be noticed moving around the first floor and could exit out the back or front without any problems. But, "But trying to find the Truth of what is available is worthy of talking about it."

Jim, I'm not wedded to the fire escape notion. There is no supporting evidence of any quality. All it does is account for the only other way to leave the TSBD. The notion would not make a hypothesis simply because there is no way to test it. The Oswald double on the 6th floor, possibly Lee Oswald, had to look enough like Harvey Oswald, the man killed by Jack Ruby, to fool Roger Craig, a keen detective. There may have been more that two people there. Possibly, a black man who Amos Euins covered for saying he was white. He told a reporter, I believe James Underwood, that the man was black. Amos' story shifts about a bald guy or light colored hair. My favorite candidate for this black man in Bonnie Ray Williams who had "white stuff" or "debris" in his hair as described by Jarmin and possibly seen by Euins as baldness. How did he acquire the hair problem? Getting that as dust from the building shaking from shots fired seems like an after the fact justification. Just before the assassination, he leaves the 6th floor by the steps and joins Norman and Jarman to watch the assassination. His role on the 5th floor was as a watchman or spotter. He did not accompany Norman and Jarman to the 5th floor. Norman and Jarman are not clear on how long was it before the assassination that Bonnie Ray joins them. Bonnie Ray's story on where he was at and what he saw changed four times. Can we expect him to be consistent on anything? According to Jarman's testimony he was the one who parked the west elevator on the 5th floor and if he left the gate open no one would be able to use it except someone on the 5th floor. Where is Jack Daugherty during all this? He is not seen or mentioned by any of the three on the 5th floor. Particularly, Bonnie Ray who goes to the 5th floor just moments before the assassination. He may have come down from the 6th floor. There is a possibility for Daugherty to be the clean up man on the 6th floor. Walk to the 5th and take the elevator to the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrive and then send it back up the 5th floor. I also suspect Eddie Piper. Why else would Piper and Daugherty validate each other's presence of the 1st floor? They can at least be charged with collusion as it is defined modernly. There is all kinds of problems with this on timing. Why didn't Baker and Truly notice or hear the movement of the west elevator as they went up the stairs?

Jim, My explanation is as follows. Bart Kamp is right about speculation. This is speculation. Speculation based on someone or more not wanting to be seen leaving the TSBD moments after the assassination. There could have been non-TSBD employees involved or outsiders related to the folks of the TSBD. Possible illicit entrance into the Passenger Elevator The montage above illustrates how the passenger elevator could be entered from the 5th floor. The elevator shaft was on the east wall of the TSBD at the second set of windows moving north on the Houston Street side. The left-hand photo of the Sniper’s Nest shows that the original 2 x 6 planking was still there and on the east face of the building facing Houston Street. The 6th floor plywood floor layers had not gotten to that area. The right-hand photo of the 6th floor shows what the original planking would look like from one floor down on the 5th floor ceiling. To make an entrance into the elevator shaft one would need simple tools such as a skill saw, a pry bar, a hammer, and perhaps a few nails for re-nailing the cut boards. The left hand photo shows a red line representing the distance one would have to cut to have an entrance into the elevator shaft. This would be approximately 6 planks, about 30 inches, or whatever distance was there between the support beams running north / south. The cut in the 2 x 6 planks would be made in the center of the wooden beam the 2 x 6 planks were nailed to. This distance can be easily measured based on what one sees on the 5th floor. This entrance could be prepared the day before and hidden by book boxes. It could be prepared at night with the help of TSBD janitors such as Eddie Piper or, the preparers could wait until his shift was over at about 2 o’clock. The cut boards could be left nailed or the boards could be pried up and the nails removed and the boards replaced and the cuts could be hidden by boxes. One would need a key for the elevator escape hatch if necessary. One would need a key to a second floor office such as Ochus Campbell and maybe a key to the fire escape door if one was going to leave by the fire escape. I mention the fire escape because it is one of two ways to leave the TSBD. The other is through exits on the 1st floor. One could take the passenger elevator to the basement and then exit by the 1st floor. I don’t think anyone would pay attention to a familiar face coming up from the basement but, someone might notice a stranger. The same problem exists for the escapees taking the passenger elevator to the 1st floor and then exiting the building from there. One would have to pass all the folks at the entrance and those out in front of the entrance. It is either that or walk across the entire 1st floor to a rear entrance of the TSBD. Establishing an entrance into the passenger elevator shaft is a simple carpenter’s job and could be done in less than 5 minutes. The only problem with this speculation is that if the elevator shaft was an enclosed with a metal ceiling or some other type of ceiling that would require extra work.

I think so to. Please take a look at this next post and assess what its weaknesses are. Jack Daugherty and the elevators Jack Daugherty seems to move up and down the elevators at will. He does so in time periods where the power in the building is supposedly off. Geneva Hines said the light went off just as the motorcade was approaching. Jack says he went up to the 6th floor at 12:45 (obviously a mistake intentional or otherwise). He said he didn’t see anyone there. As soon as he got there he went back down to the 5th floor and there he heard shots. How did he move between floors if not by elevator? The power to the elevator could have still on when he went to the 6th floor. But, as Geneva Hines reports the power was off while Jack was on the 5th floor hearing shots. He doesn’t state how he moved between floors. Jack then decides to go to the 1st floor. He doesn’t mention how he does that. The power is off unless someone is helping Jack use the elevator to reach the 1st floor. He doesn’t take the passenger elevator or he would have been noticed by Dorothy Garner or Elsie Dorman. Or, he walks down the steps and may have run into Truly and Baker. But, Baker’s description of the 3rd or 4th floor male encounter rules him out. So, he either takes the elevator or uses the stairway before Truly and Baker move up the steps. This must be after Adams and Styles go down the stairs. The problem with that is Dorothy Garden didn’t hear anyone on the steps until Truly and Baker go up. Is this why folks think Daugherty took an elevator even though the power was off according to Geneva Hines? After talking to Eddie Piper he said he went back up to the 6th floor by elevator. While he was there he didn’t see anybody. On two trips to the upper floors he doesn’t see or hear anyone on the steps, or 5th or 6th floor. This second trip to the 6th floor is when the power is said to be off. If this happened during the Truly / Baker walk up the steps then Baker and Truly would have heard someone using the elevator. They don’t mention anything like that. Jack Daugherty is a suspicious character who is judged by many to be a moron based on some of this statements at a WC hearing: Mr. Dougherty. Well, of course, a year or so, you might say — just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October — October 24, 1942. Mr. Ball. How long were you in the service? Mr. Dougherty. 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact. Mr. Ball. And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it? Mr. Dougherty. Yes, sir. The war didn’t end until the following year in about April, 1945 in Europe and later for the Japanese. And, here is a fine example of southern humor. Mr. Ball. Did you have any active service? Mr. Dougherty. Well, no — I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn’t very well volunteer — you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time. Mr. Ball. Did you ever leave the United States during the War? Mr. Dougherty. Oh, yes. Mr. Ball. Where did you go? Mr. Dougherty. Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there — Seymour, Ind. And, Mr. Ball. What did you do after you got out of the Army? Mr. Dougherty. Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my applica- tion in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since. Mr. Ball. And that was when — in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository? Mr. Dougherty. September 17, 1940. Mr. Ball. 1940 what? You can see why some people though Jack was a light weight in his thinking. It is the perfect cover for someone involved the assassination. If you look at Jack’s handwritten statement to the Sheriff’s Office of 11-22-63 you will see Jack is not what the educational folk would classify as a moron or what is known today as a Special Ed. classification. Or even, in other terms appropriate for the times a Dull Normal as Forrest Gump was portrayed. Definely a suspicious character.

How long was the power off? 1 or 2 or 3 minutes or more? Vickie Adams estimated 4 or 5 minutes and when you combine what she said above with what she said on the 11-24-63 FBI statement's second page that is a significant length of time. If the power was off for 4 or 5 minutes and the elevators are not running and no one is going down the stairs then that is enough time for people to make the passenger elevator escape when the elevator power came back on. Or, since circuit panels control power to the various parts of the building selectively then the power to the passenger elevator could have been turned on briefly for the escape and then turned back off as Vickie Adams noticed about 4 or 5 minutes later. This indicates that there was a larger assassination team in the TSBD than just two men sighted on the sixth floor. Danny Arce or someone who looks amazingly like Danny Arce is out on Houston Street with a radio as seen in Altgens 6 coordinating something. How many other members of the 6th floor plywood floor laying team were members of the team and/or became suspects later and taken to the police station? Hence, there testimony could be adjusted any way the authorities wanted.

Tony, Sorry. I don't agree. The blowup makes the car look more like a hardtop. I appreciate your good efforts in picking up my slack on some of these issues. It's encouraging that there are some folks taking their time to correct my occasional goofs. By doing so it helps me get closer to the truth of Dealey Plaza and what happened there. And, that is more important then any bruised feelings over goofs. Thanks again.

Thanks Tony, No worries with what you are saying about Bell. Bell is not helpful in determining whether the vehicle under the underpass in the Wiegman frame is a convertible or not. I was relying on your good eyes to make a determination on that. Bell has problems with the imagery down by the underpass. It is one of my arguments for a general film editing of films that show the assassination and aftermath. Here's a couple of examples: 1. Bell shows no one on the railroad tracks. Then just a few frames later does. 2. There are 3 motorbike policemen show on the far side of the underpass. They don't appear to move at all when all the other vehicles do. I'll use your Bell frame to explain. About where the Vice Prez car is would be where the presidential limo would be in earlier frames. The motorbike cops don't appear to move from those kind of scenes to the one you posted. 3. There should be 5 motorbikes rather than 3. Some of the officers in the lead motorbikes said they went back to the TSBD or Grassy Knoll or stopped in the plaza. However, there is one Bell frame showing all 5 beyond the underpass. The frame is so blurry it probably isn't worth mentioning. One of the big things about Bell is the railroad workers. They are not there in Wiegman and Bell. Officer W. Barnett said he saw 1 or 2 officers on the railroad bridge and no one else. Others have said the same thing. These would be John Martin, Malcom Couch, and another film or photo such as the lady who filmed from the Old Courthouse whose name escapes me for the moment. Patsy Paschall? I believe one of the photos I used came from her film.

Thanks Bart, Officer number one is Joe Marshall. He is where he is supposed to be according to his testimony. Officer number two is Welcome Barnett. Ditto on location. Officer number three is Edgar Smith. He is where he is supposed to be according to the Muchmore film. He said he was under the windows of the Court Record Building and this is confirmed by Muchmore. The reason I was checking their testimony and location is the fire escape plan. Although speculative, it could work according to the circumstantial info. Did that happen? Who knows. If you were an assassin or co-conspirator in the TSBD and did not want to be seen on the first floor or exit by any of the exits on the first floor then the only other sensible option is the fire escape.

I agree on security vehicle. You have better eyes than mine. It looks like the Johnson vehicle. Otherwise that puts the Mayors Car in front of the Johnson security vehicle. What is your opinion on the vehicle going under the underpass? What is your oplnlon on no railroad men on the railroad bridge? i think you are right. There maybe heads sticking up and visible through the windshield. So, whats going on in the other Wiegman frame?

Y Good catch. I have confused the National Press Pool Car with the Mayors Cars order. There is still aproblem with this frame. Where is the Mayors Car? It should be in front of the press pool vehicle. I’ll be interested in your comment. What do you think is going on there? There are no vehicles in front of the press pool car in the other frame. Whats going on there? I think I confused the vehicles because I didnt see the Mayors Car in front of the National Press Pool Car. This is Wiegman. Where did the Mayors Car disappear to? It is in earlier scenes but not in the two frames I posted. There is not enough time for it to speed off ahead of other vehicles.

The first is the Mayor’s Car. The rest I am not certain. The vehicle in front should be the Vice-Presidents security vehicle. There is one or two vehicles can be seen throuh the windshield of the Mayors Car. Down by the underpass appears to be a dark hardtop vehicle. The imagery is fairly vague. It doesnt appear to be a convertible. The Mayors Car was behind the Johnson vehicles. Thats what should be there. This frame is before the one showing no vehicles in front.

This is what you are supposed to see and believe about Wiegman, motorcade stoppages, times between films, and how the plaza was cleared after the assassination. From Wiegman's early frames. But, look close. Is that really the presidential limousine going under the underpass? It is not a convertible. The presidential limo, the SS security vehicle, and Johnson's vehicle were all convertibles. Because of that I judge this frame to be edited. No one on the underpass plays hell with Altgens 7. Somebody didn't get the right script and put the railroad men on the underpass. If your vision and imagination is good you might see a blob on the right which might represent Officer Foster. Next, is what Wiegman really filmed. This an the next frame from Couch-Darnell gave me the idea that the motorcade moved down Elm Street in segments with varying intervals of being halted. That's about it. Most folks find some fault with this reasoning because it messes with many things they have learned over the years about the assassination and the timing of Prayerman in front of the TSBD. It definitely destroys Altgens 7. Of course, many other films also do that also. A good question might be how long does it take to go from the TSBD to the underpass and be out of sight?

I didn’t think this thread had any legs, maybe a 100 views at best. The fire escape plan is just an informed speculation on Jim Hargroves excellent passenger elevator escape plan. There is hardly any evidence at all. Just something that could happen if you wanted to avoid escaping by the first floor exits. The only other recourse is the fire escape. During the research on this I was glad to see someone else, Officer Barnett, was thinking fire escape too.

Could be. But, what kept her in position when the other cars sped off. Their is imagery in Wiegman showing the other vehicles had cleared the plaza while they are going down Elm. Wiegman had to have time to run to the SW corner of Elm and film the vehicle sitting still.

That ID is based on wearing a white Dallas police hat. The other, right hand figure does not have a white hat. But, seems to be wearing a black hat. Towner shows that policeman wearing a white hat. The images are so poor it is hard to say. Barnett says he is in the intersection. So, Barnett is inthe general area he said he was in and that was confused by the WC interogator. Notice the very large tree in the frame. I do not think trees were that tall in 1963. The upper part the black part is painted. Easy to recognize artwork by an artist. It is fairly well done but, one can see the brush strokes.

Thanks for the correction. I was originally typing Barnett until I saw Barrett somewhere and thought I was mispelling. I will change back to Barnett. And, that will be with apologies to Welcome Eugene.

Identification of police officers in Elm intersection There were 3 officers assigned to watch the crowd and control traffic in the intersection of Elm and Houston as the presidential motorcade would pass through there. These were: Joe Marshall Smith Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. Welcome Eugene Barrett It is somewhat difficult to identify who was who and where they were located in the intersection of Elm and Houston. Officer Joe Marshall Smith said at a WC hearing that he was located in the intersection of Elm and Houston controlling traffic and watching the crowd. “Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile? Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.” He said there were no problems there before the motorcade shown up. There was an event with an epileptic person who had to be removed by ambulance. This maybe him in the Altgens 6 photo. If you examine the following photos and compare them to Altgens 6 you will see the people around the officer indicated is not the same from photo to photo. This was first noticed by Jack White. Officer Joe Smith left his post and went to the Grassy Knoll directly after the shooting. “Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.” Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. gave a somewhat confusing testimony on where he was located. He was helped by Mr. Liebler to say where he was: Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you station yourself and what did you do from the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach? Mr. SMITH. I said approximately - oh, 30 to 40 feet south of the south curb of Elm Street at the east curb of Houston. I stood around there and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched the crowd. Mr. LIEBELER. You stood across the street on Houston Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building? 566 Mr. SMITH. Yes. Mr. LIEBELER. Cater-cornered - and I show you Commission Exhibit No. 354, and it has a letter "A" marked there, and that will be approximately where you were standing; is that right? Mr. SMITH. That's about where I was. Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do from the time you stationed yourself in that position? Mr. SMITH. Well, I stood there and talked some to the crowd after they finally formed. They didn't start forming until around 11 o'clock, and looked over here at the Texas School Book Depository Building and just stood there mainly - there wasn't much to do. Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the buildings that were around this intersection here at Elm Street at all? Mr. SMITH. Yes; I did. Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing there at position "A" in Exhibit No. 354, you were in a position to observe the south windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building, were you not? Mr. SMITH. That's right Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice any windows open up there? Mr. SMITH. I don't recall at this time whether there was any open. I'm sure there were, but I just don't remember it specifically - any specifically being open. There's quite a few people looking out the windows and what not of the various buildings.” Officer Smith said he was at: “I was assigned to the corner of Houston and Elm Street. I got to my traffic corner about -- Mr. LIEBELER. Before you get to that - let me ask you a few questions: What did you say your name was, Edgar L.?” Actually, Office Edgar Smith said he was further south on Houston Street and what is shown here. Altgens 5 may show Officer Edgar Smith but, this is probably Joe Marshall. The perspective is somewhat strange here due to Altgens shooting form Main and Houston. However, the people around this officer is different. Notice the people are not the same as in Altgens 6 and this officer is standing south of the direction sign. Whereas in Altgens 6 the officer is standing north of the direction sign. This officer appears to be standing on the SE corner of Elm and Houston. This agrees with the next photo or film frame 16 from Zapruder. This Zapruder frame 16 could show Edgar Smith. It does not show Joe Marshall in the middle of the street in the Elm and Houston intersection. Edgar Smith is in such a position he probably would not be filmed by Altgens in Altgens 6. Particularly, when he said this: “Mr. LIEBELER. As the motorcade turned and went down Elm Street, what happened? Mr. SMITH. I heard three shots, I guess they were shots. I thought that the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the third one, I ran down the street here. Mr. LIEBELER. You ran down Elm Street? Mr. SMITH. Well, ran down Houston Street and then to Elm, and actually, I guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner I couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner. Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were a little bit farther south down Elm Street than Position "A"? Mr. SMITH. Yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that - yes; I was under these windows here.” After the shooting he ran down Houston to Elm and then down Elm Street. He eventually ended up at the Grassy Knoll. Smith could be in the Marie Muchmore film at about the same location but, the imagery is so bad that it is just a guess. Officer Welcome Barrett said he was located: “Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remain there at all times from 10 o'clock until the motorcade arrived? Mr. BARNETT - Yes; well, of course, I was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and I stepped out of this position here. I had to stop traffic from Houston here and help the other officers stop it on Elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the Depository Building. Mr. LIEBELER - When the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty much into Houston Street? Mr. BARNETT - Yes, sir.” He was in Houston Street when the motorcade went by. This is shown in the Tina Towner but, not in Mark Bell. There are film frames possibly showing Officer Welcome Barrett in Tina Towner and Mark Bell films. However, there is a discrepancy in his location. Nothing ever works flawlessly in the Plaza. Bell shows an officer that could be Barrett at the SE corner of the TSBD. The imagery is fairly vague but, with study you can make out something that looks like a Dallas Police in a white hat. And, there is no policeman (with a white hat) in the middle of Houston Street. He should be next to the large man in a coat and white shirt standing in the middle of the street. All 3 of these officers deserted their posts in order to do something else they considered important. This was done according to their testimonies directly after the shooting. So, that leaves a question concerning who was controlling traffic and the stopping and moving of the various motorcade segments controlled after the shooting. My candidate for this is Officer Barrett even though he said he was doing something else like watching the fire escape and the rear (north face) of the TSBD. This montage may be helpful in Identifying Joe Smith and Edgar Smith:

Wiegman couldn't have started filming 3 seconds before the final shot. He says that he left the vehicle as the 3rd shot occurred. He didn't say anything about filming. There is no film to indicate he began filming on Houston Street about at the middle of the County Records building or at the SW end of the building. I'm not sure where he was exactly. That is why I estimate 3 to 5 seconds to get to the SW corner of Elm. He says in Trask he needed to get to the corner to see what was going on there. Trask contradicts Wiegman by saying on page 374 that he begins filming as the crowd in front of the TSBD reacts to noise. Trask got that wrong if Wiegman is hearing 3 shots on Houston Street. That may be where the 3 seconds comes from. I don't particularly care for Pictures of Pain. What I have read seems biased toward the WC and the official story. The opening scene in Weigman is shown on page 374. It is taken from the SW corner of Elm and Houston. There is no film taken on Houston Street that is available. The opening scene corresponds to the 8th second of the film. The first 8 seconds are blank or black screen. This is in the Groden version which most others are based on. Maybe Groden thought 8 seconds of the two vehicles shown not moving, the Mayor's Car and the National Press Pool Car, just didn't do anything to enhance the film. I don't know why Groden did what he did. Just speculating. The two vehicles mentioned were stopped in that position for some period of time. 8 seconds is not that long. I had missed this earlier. Wiegman said the motorcade had stopped. This indicates someone was out there to stop the motorcade just after the presidential and vice-presidential parties were leaving the intersection in front of the TSBD. This confirms what Mrs. Earle Cabell said about the motorcade being stopped. Someone had to release them and then hold the Camera Cars for a length of time that can be somewhere between 30 and 48 seconds. It is my opinion that someone was ordered to stop the motorcade just after the Johnson security vehicle passed by. This would keep all of the press and camera folks from filming the events happening directly after the assassination. Wiegman beat the game by running to the SW corner of Elm and began filming there. This calls into question Officer Barrett's story sense the Smith boys had run to the Grassy Knoll. The Dallas Police was a paramilitary organization not a military one. They don't seem very well trained with several officers deserting their posts and not protecting those they were assigned to protect. Not many stayed with their assigned duty station.