John Butler

Gil, Pat said that above, but we know the FBI changed testimony, or in other cases actively coerced and intimidated witnesses to say what they wanted them to say about the events in Dealey Plaza. When I read all of the witness statements I could find about what happened in Dealey Plaza there were 100+ who said certain similar things. And, then there was about as many who said something similar, but one, two or three words would change the meaning of what was being said. Instead of "passed in front of" you would find things like "just pass the TSBD" or "after passing the TSBD". There were too many of these, in my opinion, to be natural.

Very well said. As for my many errors, I'll give them up in a heartbeat if I think I was wrong. I have 3 fine fellows, David Josephs, Chris Davidson, and Chris Bristow, keeping track of what I do and often correct my misconceptions. I give them credit for that. The only thing I am interested in is the truth. Back in the day, I didn't really like Kennedy. Johnson was my favorite. Well, time has corrected that foolishness. I usually get bored with a field of study after a short period of time. I would guess my stupidity involving Kennedy/Johnson keeps me here in this area longer than I would normally be.

Sandy, I get beat up every time I mention Mary Moorman and Jean Hill not being there at all. That is way beyond what other folks, about as close to 100% as you can get, believe. Move Jean and Mary just a few inches and hell breaks loose. The same goes for pointing out the camera imperfections that suggest they were editorially placed there. I think a lot of people think I make this stuff up. Not at all. It is based upon Arlen Specter's WC exhibit Hill No. 5. OBTW, this exhibit was placed under Top Secret classification for years. Why? Well, Jean Hill said she and Mary were across the street from the SW end of the TSBD. You can't have that known when the Z film says they were down in front of the Grassy Knoll. I remember seeing photos of folks down by the Grassy Knoll measuring the area and angles where Mary and Jean were standing trying to determine whether Mary was in the street or on the grass. That occasioned a lot of argument at the time. I go way beyond that. I am surely going to get in trouble for this. If you want to see Mary Moorman in the street then go back and watch the Z film around Z frame 133 to 157. One of the women in black, which I consider Mary and Jean, goes out into the street. There is more Mary and Jean testimony action there then in the Z film where they appear to be as mobile as the Mannikin Row folks.

Chris says a lot here. But, I don't think he goes far enough. Maybe, that's due to politeness. I would like to add that the "Lone Nutters" are out of touch with reality. The concepts in their minds do not match the events of Dealey Plaza. To me, that is wishful thinking on their part. If they are not irrational, then there must be some agenda they are adhering to which calls for them to disregard facts put forth by others. They say things like we believe 1 or two experts instead of 59 Palamara witnesses or 100+ Butler witnesses. Would a court do that? They list obviously altered films and photos as true blue. They say prove that they have been altered. Well, you can't to their satisfaction. You will never be able to do that. One said there are no missing frames in the Zapruder film using the most illogical argument. One expert says it is authentic so everybody else with good reasons are simply wrong. Flat out wrong. To that argument, I say listen to what Zapruder said. He said he did not turn his camera off and filmed the entire event on Elm Street. I guess Saint Zapruder lied here when he doesn't lie elsewhere. I bring this up due to the Zapruder Gap that most people avoid talking about. About 275 to 384 frames are missing there. By various estimates somewhere between 15 to 21 seconds are missing. As far as content imagery goes, the film is loaded with goofy things and poorly done alterations. I'll re-post Z frame 157 again to just re-emphasize the point. Take an honest look at the areas that have a red x. OBTW, Z frame 157 is part of the reason I offered the alteration method based on the Elsie Dorman film. Here we see this method in action concerning the interior of the p. limo. We see a number of things once this scene is magnified. Can you see JFK's head? You can't due to the film splice. Splicing film together means something is missing. Frames. I helped my brother who ran the projection booth at our local theater. He let me into the movies free to help him quickly splice film when they broke. The torn or broken frames had to be cut away so the frames could be spliced together. There was a special machine to do that with. Sometimes more than two frames were involved. That happened quite often since the film sent to our local theater had been shown many times in other theaters. How do you like that huge, monstrous sized SS vehicle following the p. limo? Tell me about all the technical film crap that account for that. I will surely believe you. Back to the film splice. You can't see Kennedy's head, but you can see his hands reaching to his throat after being shot before he reaches the Stemmons Sign. This is an easily arguable point. It is what I see. And, in tune with witness statements.

Thanks Ron, Larry In 1987 I moved out of the town that I lived in for more privacy in the country. That summer two DC3 landed, on different occasions, in a grassy field nearby. The plane was on the ground (in both episodes) for about 15-20 minutes. The plane came in very low over the trees, maybe 150 to 200 feet, and landed. Had to be dope smuggling runs.

Hi Chris, Wasn't that one frame per second method also used in the Towner Film? For the reasons you list I like the method of alteration I described earlier. Just the contents of the p. limo are changed and nothing else.

Thanks Larry, It's hard to see such a large plane landing in a grassy field or roughed out unpaved road. The C-54 was probably too large to land on the unfinished road at North Houston down by the river. Whenever I think of airplanes landing in grassy fields or rough areas I think of the DC3. It was a plane built in the 1930s and used for the next 80 years. Dope runners found it particularly useful in smuggling dope. Thanks again.

Gil, I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I very much enjoyed and found very interesting the things that you initially wrote. I shy away from controversy and debate as much as I can. I was just expressing my opinion of CIA people during that time. I watched all of the interviews I could find of Dino Brugioni. Sometime during that time I was watching him speak of what happened at the NPIC I suddenly realized he reminded me of a wide eyed, innocent 12 year old deceiver. In fact I have enjoyed most of what you write. Keep up the good work,

I seem to recall that road work was going on at North Houston down by the river at the same time the assassination occurred. A plane could land there. A DC3, a WWII plane made to land on a short, grassy field, could have done that. This is complicated by no one seeing or remembering a plane landing there. Doesn't mean one didn't.

Another fine example of the FBI stirring the pot of Dealey Plaza with their interpretation of events. Another example of the FBI altering records.

And, of course Honest Dino, a CIA asset, had nothing to do with film alteration. He just made photo boards. We can take his word for that. I would say that NPIC could do much the same otherwise why were they in business. Would they alter photo information for a president they didn't like? If you recall the Z film was shown at the Clay Shaw trial. The powers that be would have known the effect that film would have on the public. The Z film is a psychological tool to alter existing memories from Dealey Plaza into what the Z film portrays as reality. Oh, that's how it was. It's not what I recall, but there it is on film. This was just like FBI agents altering testimony after the fact. 10 years later someone reads what they said to the FBI and say much the same thing. There it is on paper. They are not like Roger Craig identifying 14 changes in what he said. It couldn't be "lost" because it had purpose. I suspect that if Robert Groden hadn't aired the film someone else would have. It was time to do that. So what that it caused the HSCA. That was congress, an organ of government, corrupt and corruptible. What effect did the HSCA have? It verified most of the Warren Commission, but had to make the concession that there may have been a conspiracy based on one piece of evidence that could be refuted later. Once it was out it became the story of the assassination for years and decades. And, people today still consider it so. The events of Dealey Plaza indicate a master conspiracy planner or planners that created a situation that no one can figure out based on overwhelming contrary evidence. I don't think one can find many things in the events of Dealey Plaza that everyone can agree on other than President Kennedy was shot and killed there.

Dan, You know what bothers me more. Shooting on Main Street. Shooting at the intersection of Main and Houston. Shooting on Houston Street. Shooting in the intersection of Elm and Houston. Shooting in front of the TSBD. Shooting near the Grassy Knoll. All of these are based on witness statements. It is not something I said or made up. Dealey Plaza witnesses said these things. If all of these statements were true, then the motorcade ran a gauntlet. I haven't found anyone to believe that. Are these statements partially true? I have found anyone that believes that either. I think that is mainly due to these witnesses forming a minority position. About 20% of Dealey Plaza witnesses. The majority of witnesses generally go along with the Official Story or they are said to. The all pervasive influence of the Z film has led people to certain conclusions for years and decades. After all, we see it on film. It must be true. As far as JFK waving to the crowd as he goes behind the Stemmons Sign and is shot, I think that occurred elsewhere and was edited into the Z film. How sure am I of that? About 20%. And, that comes from what witnesses said in Dealey Plaza. If over 100 people are not believable as versus a larger number just based on the larger number alone, then courts could not function. Serious doubt is raised by the witnesses that shooting occurred elsewhere then down by the Grassy Knoll on Elm Street. That doubt needs to be accounted for in studying the JFKA. I've tried to do just that. I admit I have not been very successful in doing that. But, I have raised the issue and it needs to be addressed.

If it is a small number of people as versus a large number, then folks are apt to go with the larger number using things like what is said above. However, what if there were a large number of people saying something. I recall that Vince Palarmara said something like 59 witnesses said the p. limo came to a stop. I have 108+ witnesses who said that shooting occurred differently and mainly in the intersection of Elm and Houston and in front of the TSBD. A small number of those witnesses said shooting occurred on Main Street and Houston Street. This directly contradicts the Zapruder Film and others that show much the same imagery. What do you do with that? Throw out 20% of the witnesses because they said something different. No. Those witnesses introduce a large element of doubt. There are a lot of people who would still like to believe the Zapruder Film is still the best source of information on the assassination. It they accept that the Z film is fraud then that kills years or perhaps decades of work. And, gives rise to the question "How could I have missed that?". It is a conundrum.

Gil Jesus- The “Other Zapruder” Film “Only one person filmed from start to finish the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, which occurred in a matter of seconds at 12:30 p.m. on Nov. 22, 1963 on Elm Street in Dealey Plaza in downtown Dallas, TX. That person was a 58-year old Dallas dress manufacturer, Abraham Zapruder, who died in 1970. His silent color 8 mm film of JFK being shot to death in broad daylight while riding in an open limousine is the most historically momentous home movie in history.” And, “Until a few years ago, the authenticity and reliability of the extant Zapruder film was accepted by almost all JFK assassination researchers, even the severest critics of the Warren Report, myself included. The provenance of the Zapruder film was firmly established and the film was regarded as the single most reliable piece of assassination evidence. Today, however, things are different. There are serious doubts about whether the film is original and an accurate depiction of the assassination.” The underlined statements may be true. But, there are other things to consider. In this context I would like to suggest it was the Elsie Dorman film that did just that. Why Elsie Dorman? This film is under most people’s radar. It is a difficult film to look at and doesn’t really show that much. Besides it shows Houston Street and everybody, I mean everybody, knows the assassination happened on Elm Street down in front of the Grassy Knoll. The film is simply a badly distorted film which does not show the assassination. I believe most folks would agree with that. I recall one researcher saying that the Elsie Dorman was the worst photographer ever. However, I don’t believe that is the case. Get a copy of the film, use good software, and look at each frame of the film. Magnify each frame until you have a large image on the screen and you will see something like this which is representative of most frames on Houston Street: Can you visually identify anyone in the p. limo? This film has been edited. The people in the p. limo have been painted or blacked out. This is representative of the frames on Houston Street. There are 8 films in all that have been edited on Houston Street. There are 108+ witnesses who say something different happened than the favored conspiracy theories based on the Zapruder Film, or the Official Story about what happened during the assassination. That is about 20% of the witnesses in Dealey Plaza. These witnesses directly contradict the Zapruder Film and all of the frames past Z 133. Again, why Elsie Dorman? Based on the Elsie Dorman film, here’s what I think really happened in the alteration of the Z film. This is crudely done since I am not a film editor. John Costella said the film was technically perfect except for small, technical changes in the film. I struggled with this notion for years. Costella was talking about the technical aspects of the film and not the content of the film. There are many strange content images in the Zapruder Film. I couldn’t reconcile those differences. As I said earlier, this alteration method is based on the Elsie Dorman film. One has a film of the p. limo traveling down Elm Street. What needs to be changed to tell a different story? Simply the scene content of the inside of the p. limo. One can take imagery from another location, say the intersection of Elm and Houston, and in front of the TSBD, during what I call the Zapruder Gap. You could even use film frames from Houston Street or Main Street. A small number of witnesses said shooting happened there. This missing part of the film, the frames between Z 132 and Z 133, could contain frames for 21 seconds. Others, notably David Josephs think the time might be 15 seconds. OBTW, that's plenty of time for a limo stop. Let’s say 18 X 15 frames, or 270 frames are missing from the Zapruder Gap. That gives one a lot of scenes to use elsewhere. How many people were photographing the motorcade? I believe more than we know. The editors of the Zapruder Film had many sources to use in the construction of the Zapruder film. Have you ever wondered why no one on Houston Street or on Elm Street, except Abe Zapruder, filmed the p. limo from the passenger side? All of the films and photos are filmed from either the rear or the driver’s side of the p. limo. The last view of the passenger side of the p. limo was Jay Skaggs at the intersection of Houston and Main. I believe this is so you would not recognize anything in another film that would match the Zapruder Film or come even close to matching the Zapruder Film.

I think a point is being missed here. If someone makes this later on please forgive my laziness for not reading more than 3 pages of this homophobia topic. I believe Jim Garrison, as far as homophobia goes, is being tainted with a southern brush from the past. The Garrison events were 50+ years in the past. It seems folks are looking at Jim Garrison through a modern lens. Not the lens of the time period. Jim Garrison would seem to be a liberal in the 1960s with a tolerant view on sexuality. New Orleans is about as far south as one can go geographically and socially. Times are different now. Things were different then. 50+ years ago almost everyone in the south was bigoted, and homosexuals were not excluded from that bigotry. I grew up in Central Kentucky in the 1950s and 1960s. Central Ky. at that time was as far south as any place. I did not know a single person who was not racist or homophobic. I have traveled through SC, Ga, Ala, La, and Miss in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. Things begin to change by the 80s. My environment at that time in no ways compares to Jim Garrrison's behavior. He was not a typical southerner. What I am trying to say is Jim Garrison's behavior in those days was superior to most.

Steve, Thanks. I went back and added a few to the list. I just thought of another.

Can you elaborate. I have the same views as Sylvia Meagher on Oswald and the U2. Would that have anything to do with what you are talking about?

For some reason or another I see Lee Oswald doing the heavy lifting, dangerous jobs, while Harvey is less exposed. I believe both were in New Orleans doing various things and that accounts for some of the confusion concerning what Oswald was doing there. Oswald had multiple jobs while being there. Which were carried out by Lee and which were carried out by Harvey? Or, did they work the same jobs together? What was Oswald doing in New Orleans? 1. Set up the FPCC and establish contact with pro-Castro forces- pass out leaflets 2. Work for Guy Bannister in identifying Communists in New Orleans 3. Work with anti-Castro forces- work in training camps 4. Monitor and help Judyth Baker/cancer research project 5. Get young homosexuals out of jail for Shaw and Ferrie 6. Stay in contact with Mafia elements in New Orleans 7. Promote Marxist values on TV and through lectures 8. Work for the CIA 9. Be an informant for the FBI 10. Make mysterious trips to Tennessee? Michigan? Mexico? For what reasons? 11. Try to get a job at a mental health facility. I can't think of anything else. I am sure there is more.

Way to complicated. I just backed up files for the forum and there are something like 36000+ Oswald files. Way to much for my poor brain. As far as Leandes/Landesberg, Ransberger, and Gorsky, these are facts from Harvey and Lee. It is how you interpret those facts which leads to the conclusion that Lee Oswald entered the service first and Harvey followed months later. They also indicate that Lee took training in the Eastern US and Harvey in the Western Us. Facts such as Lee Oswald was a PFC in the fall of 1956 and Harvey was promoted to PFC on May 1, 1957. As far as I know there was no reduction in rank to account for Harvey taking 9-10 months to become a PFC. In fact you could not reduce his rank from PVT/E1 to something lower. This little factoid would tell the public that Harvey must have been a real "dud" by taking so long to reach a higher rank. More ammunition for the anomie ridden Lone Nut assassin story. It's a bit far fetched, but it could be a clue on Harvey's future use to the ONI/CIA.

That kind of thing still goes on today. I found this on the internet sometime back.

Ron, There is a reason why MacArthur wanted nothing to do with them. Communist infiltration of the OSS led to its demise. If my memory is right, in March, 1947 Truman issued an executive order banning Communists from serving in the government. By Robert Longley Updated on June 03, 2019 "In 1947, World War II had just ended, the Cold War had just begun, and Americans were seeing communists everywhere. It was in that politically-charged atmosphere of fear that President Harry S. Truman on March 21, 1947, issued an executive order establishing an official “Loyalty Program” intended to identify and eliminate communists in the U.S. government." I wrote this an posted it sometime back. It might be useful to consider in understanding the OSS/CIA transition. The men mentioned in this old post were capable of doing anything. I consider WWII and the men who served, particularly in the military and intelligence services, the prime cause of most of the problems we face today. These men did horrible things in WWII and when the war was over, they did not change their tactics or strategy after the war ended. They were still capable of doing any foul deed to win at all costs. It is this mind set which led to things like the programs you are talking about. This doesn't have that much to do with MKUltra and Mocking Bird. But, the mind set behind them led to things like the following: "The Oswald Project/Defector Program began with WW2 Refugees in Europe Men in the OSS who may have known or had something to do with WW2 refugees and the Oswald Project’s origins. James Murphy- The X-2 Counterintelligence was led by James Murphy, whose branch would have the power to veto operations of the Special Operations and Secret Intelligence Branches without explanation.[ Allen Dulles- was assigned by the OSS to Switzerland during the war. He obtained much of his intelligence information from refugees from all over Europe who came to Switzerland. Dulles developed a pro-active strategy for counterintelligence: “Wisner emphasized his own, and Dulles', views that the best defense against foreign attacks on, or infiltration of, intelligence services is active measures against those hostile services. This is often called counterespionage: measures taken to detect enemy espionage or physical attacks against friendly intelligence services, prevent damage and information loss, and, where possible, to turn the attempt back against its originator. Counterespionage goes beyond being reactive and actively tries to subvert hostile intelligence service, by recruiting agents in the foreign service, by discrediting personnel actually loyal to their own service, and taking away resources that would be useful to the hostile service. All of these actions apply to non-national threats as well as to national organizations. If the hostile action is in one's own country or in a friendly one with co-operating police, the hostile agents may be arrested, or, if diplomats, declared persona non grata. From the perspective of one's own intelligence service, exploiting the situation to the advantage of one's side is usually preferable to arrest or actions that might result in the death of the threat. The intelligence priority sometimes comes into conflict with the instincts of one's own law enforcement organizations, especially when the foreign threat combines foreign personnel with citizens of one's country. In some circumstances, arrest may be a first step in which the prisoner is given the choice of co-operating or facing severe consequence up to and including a death sentence for espionage. Co-operation may consist of telling all one knows about the other service but preferably actively assisting in deceptive actions against the hostile service. Noel Field- He worked under Allen Dulles in the OSS. Field worked in France and Switzerland to save the children of Jewish communists and Anti-facist refugees of all kinds, Germans, Russians, Hungarians, and other east European. He worked with other organizations in France to send children to the US and other neurtral countries. He was a communist informant (spy). Frank Wisner- served in the Office of Strategic Services in World War II in Romania. And, headed the Office of Policy Coordination (OPC), a clandestine intelligence unit, from 1948 to 1950. In 1950, the OPC was placed under the Central Intelligence Agency and renamed the Directorate of Plans. Accused of having an affair with a communist agent by the FBI and cleared by the OSS. William Casey- Head of the Secret Intelligence Branch for Europe James Angleton- Angleton and Helms probably became involved after WW2. Richard Helms- Helms began what he would spend most of his intelligence career doing: planning and directing espionage operations from an office in Washington. In this case, the target was Germany, and the agents were run out of Central Europe and Scandinavia. Early in 1945, Helms got his first overseas assignment, in the London office of OSS’s espionage branch. Working under (and sharing a Grosvenor Street flat with) William Casey. Others: George Mandel, aka Giorgio Mantello, who during World War II had traded in Jewish refugees. …. It was Mandel who had been the official founder of PERMINDEX. Ferenc Nagy- One time leader of Hungary. He was involved with helping refugees during WW2. Founder of Permindex. Andree Salomon- Andree Salomon, as the OSE (Œuvre de secours aux enfants or Organization to Save the Children) delegate to the Gurs and Rivesaltes Concentration Camps, in 1941 started to supervise all the preparations for the emigration of Jewish children from the camps to the U.S.A. …. These children travelled by themselves directly to the United States, leaving their parents behind…. These children are members of that group of Holocaust Child Survivors who are "One Thousand Children." Most of their parents later were murdered by the Nazis. There were many other Europeans who worked to save the millions of refugees in WW2. The Golos/Bentley Soviet spy networks that had penetrated the OSS. Each of the important agencies of the OSS that could have had something to do with the Refugee/Oswald Project were penetrated by communist spies. 1. Secret Intelligence Branch (counterintelligence was a part at the beginning) 2. Counterintellligence Branch X2 3. Research and Analysis. People who were involved or probably knew what Counterintelligence was doing are William Donovan and his close aid Duncan Lee as top leaders of the CIA. William Donovan established a strong, close connection sharing between the Secret Intelligence Branch and the Counterintelligence X2 Branch. Duncan Lee- Top aide to William Donovan. Communist spy. Secret Intelligence Branch: David K. E. Bruce Whitney Shepardson William Casey Richard Helms Arthur Goldberg- alleged communist spy Counterintelligence X2 branch- Orginally part of the Secret Intellligence Branch. James Murphy- Norman Pearson- communist spy Allen Dulles- Switzerland Frank Wisner- Romania James Angleton- Britian Research and Analysis: James Phinney Baxter William Langer Maurice Halperin- communist spy Donald Wheeler- communist spy Carl Marzani- communist spy Leonard Mins- communist spy Soviet Spies: The Golos/Bentley Networks that had penetrated the OSS Possible Government agents and informants/Former Soviet Communists Emil Gardos and Grace Gardos Louis Weinstock Fred Blair If this struck you as interesting, a good book to read is: Bill Harvey's (at the time a FBI agent) interrogation of this woman resulted in the destruction of the OSS and Truman's later establishment of the CIA.

Jim, Too true. I wrote earlier I needed to review this material. You said, “I also can’t remember how Parris Island fits into this (is there another name for the base there?), but John A. believes that when Lee HARVEY Oswald entered the Marines on Oct 24, 1956 in San Diego, LEE Harvey Oswald was at El Toro, about 50 miles to the north.” The U. S. Marine Corps has two training areas in the Southeastern US. This is the Recruit Depot at Parris Island, SC and another training center at Camp Lejeune, NC. I was confusing Parris Island with Camp Lejeune. I wrote this in an earlier comment. “Jim Rizzuto (Steven H. Landesberg, the student) said that he met Steve L'eandes (Steven R. Landesberg, the actor) and Lee Oswald in the Marine Corps at Camp Lejune in the summer of 1956. The summer of 1956 should be stressed. I believe this statement by Rizzuto has a more than likely chance to be true based on FBI performance. So, the statement above allows me to conclude with other information from the Harvey and Lee site (Lee Oswald’s PFC rank in the fall of 1956) that Harvey and Lee entered military service at different times and left the service at different times. To me this clears up the problem of Lee and Harvey leaving the Marine Corps at different times. They joined at different times. Lee Oswald at age 16 and Harvey at age 17. This is based on 3 year contracts with the service. Lee Oswald: About March or slightly later, 1956 to March, 1959. Harvey Oswald: October 24, 1956 to September 11, 1959.” And this, the Ransberger incident, is for the Lee Oswald service date, ““In the fall of 1956, while HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were stationed at San Diego, LEE Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility at El Toro, CA, 10 miles south of Camp Pendleton. It was in El Toro that Sergeant Wallace Ransberger first met Private First Class LEE Oswald, and a year later associated with him at Atsugi, Japan. Ransberger and LEE Oswald were assigned to the same unit and their duties were to furnish repair parts for vehicles and generators. In early 1957 Sergeant Donald Goodwin was assigned to Camp Pendleton and supervised a group of 20 men in the 5th Marine division, one of whom was radio communicator LEE Oswald, Private 1st class.” These records strongly suggest that Lee Oswald was already in the service when Harvey joined in Sept., 1956. There are two considerations here. First, Lee Oswald being a PFC/E2 takes time to arrive at that promotion position. Harvey Oswald was promoted to PFC/E2 on May 1, 1957. Secondly, the Corps trains people just as the Army does, for a particular job. Lee Oswald in the fall of 1956 was working at repairing parts for vehicles and generators. Training for aircraft maintenance probably took at least 6 weeks plus 4 months of infantry training. This says that Lee was in the service some time before Harvey. When a person enlists in the Marine Corps, he can expect to do his training at either the East Coast or West Coast training facilities. This hasn’t changed since the days of Harvey and Lee. If a recruit lives east of the Mississippi, he can expect to do training in either Camp Lejeune, NC or Parris Island, SC. On the other hand, if a recruit lives west of the Mississippi, he can expect to do his training at the Marine Corps Recruit Depot at San Diego, CA. Lee joined the Marines in New Orleans sometime in or around March, 1956. This means he was sent to either Camp Lejeune, NC, or Parris Island, SC. Harvey joined the Marines in Ft. Worth in October, 1956. This means he was sent to San Diego for training. How does one know that Lee Oswald joined the Marine Corps sometime around March, 1956? It is his date of discharge from the service. Lee Harvey Oswald has two separation dates from service. Sept. 11, 1959 for Harvey and March, 1959 for Lee. That is not possible for a single person except under extraordinary circumstances. The Gorsky incident gives us an idea when Lee left the service. From David Joseph’s timeline: “In 1959 Major William P. Gorsky was the Assistant Provost Marshall at the Marine Corps Air Station (the jet base) at El Toro. According to Major Gorsky's files, Lee Harvey Oswald was discharged from the Marine base in March 1959.” To my mind, the way to look at Harvey and Lee’s military service and records, is to key in on the date of March, 1956, possibly March 19, 1959. This suggests the two Oswalds entered the service at different times and places. This would create two sets of records for the two. The merging of these records begins after Harvey enters the service in Sept., 1956. Hope this clears up my faulty memory.

I too think there wasn't anything like that in the film. However, I believe Jim Garrison thought there was a homosexual angle to the works of Shaw, Ferrie, and Oswald in NO.

I would think that ordinary types of information would be just sent to the Dept. of the Navy in an ordinary situation. However, Oswald defecting was not an ordinary situation. This is indicated by the section of the FBI dealing with it. Internal Security- Russia. The letter was originally sent to the State Department. It should have been copied to the Navy Dept. Hoover might have known this involved spying, hence ONI. How could one determine that? That is the question. The only thing I can think of is the two Oswalds went into the military at different times. There is evidence to suggest this. They went to different training centers. There is evidence to suggest this. So, ONI would have two sets of paperwork for the two Oswalds that would have to be merged. That would be simple enough. Simply destroy Lee Oswald's records from the eastern training center at Parris Island. Then you are left with Harvey's in California. A record of Lee Oswald knowing other Marines at Parris Island and those other Marines saying he was there. Would that come to the attention of the FBI. It might when Oswald was in New York after Harvey went to Russia. HIs political activities there could have roused the interest of the FBI. I think this would come after Harveys trip to Russia. The letter is dated June 3, 1960. That is about 9 or so months after Harvey went to Russia. That's plenty of time for J. Edgar to investigate. I am not recalling the date when Lee Oswald was in New York with Steve Landesberg. But, one said he was receiving postcards from Lee in Europe at about the same time. I probably need to go back and re-read that material. Hoover may have been a despicable person, but that wouldn't stop him from being a top notch investigator. I also think he was in the know. But, how does one prove that? The only suggestion I have is the New York affair. Also, he may have come to the attention of the FBI in anti-Castro activities in La. and Fla. If so, things like Bolton Ford may have triggered that suspicion in the June 3, 1960 letter. If that's the case, then Hoover may well have thought Harvey was an imposter. If you go back to the time of William Harvey being in the FBI then there is a possibility that information about communist spying and knowledge of what the OSS/CIA was doing may have come to Hoover. Hoover may have been knowledgeable for a long time. But, how does one prove that.

I have read through this report several times. Then a couple of things struck that I had not thought about in this way. "Since there is a possibility that an imposter is using Oswald's birth certificate, ...." Did J. Edgar mean that someone in Russia could acquire this birth certificate, or was the person currently in control of the birth certificate an imposter? What if the later part is true? This would indicate J. Edgar knew about the false defector program and the double Oswalds. Would he have known about Harvey being an imposter? This idea may be given some credence since J. Edgar sent a copy to the Director of Naval Intelligence for his information. The ONI were the folks running the false defector program with the CIA. J. Edgar may have known about the intended refugee use by the OSS/CIA early on. None other than William Harvey, when he was an FBI agent, may have acquired that information when he interrogated the Red Queen, Elizabeth Bentley sometime in 1945-46 (the exact date skips my mind). Elizabeth Bentley knew everything the communist were doing in the WWII years in America. Her major espionage agents were in the OSS. Her interrogation (revelation that the OSS was filled with communist agents) eventually caused Truman to junk OSS and try to find something knew. There is a good possibility that this is nonsense. But, it should be looked at and thought about.