John Butler

For a fellow that has blinkers and can only see the official story then of course what I say will remain a mystery.

Witness statements are not solid evidence? Tell that to all the folks who went to jail based on witness statements. This is a nice piece of disinformation from Jeremy. The witness statements I selected to go into this Dealey Plaza witness review contain the person's name, where the information came from, and a brief statement of what they said. There is enough info provided and a place where you can see where it came from in case you decide to read the statement. When I read through all of the witness statements in Dealey Plaza I was looking for information to answer this question that was not asked by anyone. Where was the p. limo at when you heard shots? That question was not asked. Here is an example from the article. In this particular copy there are 110 plus witnesses and 8 maybes: 1. Witness Statements: 1. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St. 2. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston. Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that. 3. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman. He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left. That is shooting from Houston Street. This could be from the Dal-Tex. 4. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection. She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west. Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011. This contradicts her earlier statements. 5. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St. These witnesses are the first 5 in a long list of witnesses. This is what the witness said which generally can be found for most of the witnesses in FBI 302s. They are not vague or consistent with photographic witnesses. That's wishful thinking on the part of JB. Here is what I said in another article about Alan Smith to refute that type of thinking: Where was Allen Smith on November 22, 1963 at or near Dealey Plaza? Pat Speer and Chris Scully have identified and placed Allen Smith, despite his testimony saying something different, in an area I call Mannikin Row. This is the 19 people standing between the Stemmons sign and the lamppost near the SW corner of the TSBD. From Pat Speer’s Chapter 7b: More Pieces in the Plaza he said: “however, researcher Chris Scully looked into Smith and was able to confirm he attended the school he claimed to have attended, and was only 14 at the time of the shooting. Scally also made a tentative ID of Smith as one of the two boys standing under the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Betzner and Willis photos. (Scally's article on Smith can be found in the Winter 2012 Dealey Plaza Echo.) In any event, Scally's article convinced me that Smith's claim of being on Main Street was probably an honest mistake, and that he may very well have been on Elm.” Pat Speer and Chris Scully agree on the notion that Allen Smith was on Elm Street and not on Main Street as he said. They claim he was in a place on Elm Street between the lamppost near the SW corner of the TSBD and the Stemmons sign. I will repeat what Speer said as proof “Scally also made a tentative ID of Smith as one of the two boys standing under the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Betzner and Willis photos.” The key to this statement by Pat Speer is the word “tentative”. Actually, there are 2 more photos that bear on the question. These are Zapruder frame 140 and a Bronson frame. Z 140 shows there are differences in Betzner 3, and Willis 5. These photos show the people and area I call Mannikin Row. I think that Scully and Speer didn’t realize this or simply overlooked Z 140 and Bronson. You may need to enlarge these photos to see more clearly. First off, notice the two figures in Z 140 standing to the east of the dark-haired woman in dark blue. You will see the alleged Allen Smith standing next to the man in a hat and suit. They are standing east of the woman. First the man in the suit and hat then the alleged Allen. That is not what we see in Betzner 3. The alleged Allen, pointed to by an arrow, is standing to the west of the dark-haired woman in blue. This is a direct conflict between Z 140 and Betzner 3. In Willis 5 we see the same thing as is seen in Z 140. In both scenes the alleged Allen with the man in the hat and suit are standing to the east of the woman. There are further conflicts with the Bronson frame crop shown below: In Z 140 and Betzner we see the alleged Allen to the east of the woman in blue. In the Bronson frame the woman in dark blue is not near the pair at all. The alleged Allen is west of the man in the hat and suit. In Z 140 and Betzner 3 the alleged Allen is east of the man in the hat and suit. In Bronson the alleged Allen is west of the man in the suit. There is only one figure, that could possibly be a teenager in these photos. That figure is pointed to with a red arrow. That figure looks more like an adult than a teenager. He is standing near an obvious adult in a hat and business suit. This does not constitute two teenagers. Or more correctly, we do not see “friends”. Allen said he was with friends meaning more than one person. Again, quoting from the Pat Speer article: “I was standing on the curb watching the parade along Main street. We were permitted to skip school, if we had a note from our parents, to watch it." "The crowds were cheering, but all at once they changed to screaming. The car was about 10 feet from me when a bullet hit the President in his forehead. The bullets came from a window right over my head in the building in front of which my friends and I were standing." In this quote Smith says “friends”. That means more than one person. In the montage of photos above we see only one person that could possibly be a teenager. There are no other younger males there. Bronson also makes clear that there are no buildings behind the area known as Mannikin Row on Elm Street. There is what is commonly called the Arcade or Pergola and not a building with windows on a second or higher floor as indicated by Allen Smith’s testimony. Another thing different in the Bronson frame is that the 19 people group in Z 140 is not present in this frame. What we see in Bronson is a widely separated group extending back to the lamppost that is in different positions and do not number 19 people. The 3 photos above Z 140, Betzner, and Willis all show the group basically shoulder to shoulder. Another conflict is Willis has the Umbrella man west of the Stemmons sign and Bronson has him east of the sign. There is no discussion of a different camera angle from Zapruder can explain this enigma. My answer is different photo teams working on the films and photos of Dealey Plaza without a detailed script on how things should be seen. To sum up: 1. Allen Smith said he was on Main Street when the president came by. There is no visual proof that Allen Smith was on Elm Street in the area near the Stemmons sign. The four photos in question show a man in a dark or black hat and business suit next to another adult or, someone who could be claimed to be a 14 year old teenager. But, there is no proof that is true. 2. There are conflicts on where the alleged Allen and his friend are positioned in the photos and frames. 3. The 4 photos do not show a group of Allen Smith and his “friends”. Friends being more then one friend and Allen. 4. There is no building on Elm Street near the Stemmons sign that has windows two stories or more above. There simply is no building on Elm Street except the monument or Pergola structures. 5. The assumption that a 14-year-old boy would be confused as to where he was at during the assassination is just that, an assumption. 6. Allen Smith is clear enough, and not confused, to state where he was, what he saw, and what he felt in great detail in the Chicago Tribune article. 7. “(11-22-63 datelined article found in the 11-23-63 Chicago Tribune) "A wide-eyed 14-year-old boy, who was standing 10 feet away and looking directly at President Kennedy at the time of the assassination, told THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE of his astonishment at watching the historic event unfold. "It made me weak! I felt like sitting down! It was horrible!" Alan Smith, a Boy Scout and a 9th grade pupil at Stockard Junior High School, related. "I was standing on the curb watching the parade along Main street. We were permitted to skip school, if we had a note from our parents, to watch it." "The crowds were cheering, but all at once they changed to screaming. The car was about 10 feet from me when a bullet hit the President in his forehead. The bullets came from a window right over my head in the building in front of which my friends and I were standing." "Mr. Kennedy had a big wide smile. But when he was hit, his face turned blank. There was no smile, no frown - nothing. He fell down over Jackie's knees and didn't say anything. She stood up screaming 'God, oh God, no.' There was blood all over her and everything. She tried to raise him up but he fell back over her." "It sounded like the governor (John B. Connally) moaned when he was hit, I couldn't be sure." "The car went about five feet and stopped. Two policemen on foot rushed up. Then motorcycle policemen who had been leading the parade came back." "In a few minutes there were hundreds of policemen around the Dallas School Depository building, where they said the shots came from. They stuck ladders up to the building. They surrounded the whole place and moved the crowds away, so I had to leave." "Everything seemed terrible all over Dallas. Crowds of people were running all thru the city. I never saw anything like this before.” 8. Allen Smith also says that Governor Connally was also shot on Main Street. If you don't believe some of the claims above by Alan Smith you surely won't believe that last statement from Alan Smith. Here is another comment concerning Alan Smith: Alan Smith comment for Ken Rheberg Thanks Ken, Speer and Scally denigrate Alan Smith as “mysterious”, “he claimed”, “was not able to confirm”, “whether he attended the school he claimed to have attended”, “was only 14 at the time”, “made a tentative ID”, “honest mistake”, “how man many 14 year-olds know from the suburbs know”, “a wide-eyed 14 year old”, etc. They turned a 14 year old student into a bogey man. I have spent nearly 3 decades around 14 years-old kids. You can’t just say they are goofy because they are age 14 as Speer and Scally do. Kids are always surprising and many are more mature and intelligent than most think. Speer and Scally do a continuous ad hominem attack on Alan Smith to destroy his testimony. They had an agenda. Whether a school kept a copy of a yearbook or not doesn’t mean someone did not go to school there. Who is Bob Goodman and what is his relevance? Why would he be believed over Smith. Smith didn’t say the building was behind him he said the shots came from overhead directly above him. I don’t think you really believe Alan Smith or give credit what he said. I have more reason now to believe what he said then before. I have been is Dealey Plaza before when I first went to Texas in 1969. The last trip was in 2015. Thanks anyway. I have enjoyed the conversation.

That is common in the aftermath of the assassination. There were perhaps hundreds along the parade route that lost their film of the event. Only what we have today was allowed after they had been altered. The AMIPA film is the only film I know of that escaped the dragnet of the Secret Service, FBI, Dallas police, County Sheriffs, and CIA of collecting and destroying the films and photos. Most of this was done at the developers of films and photos. If this was not the case, we would have more than just a handful of low-quality altered films and photos on Main Street. On Main, Houston, and Elm I can count at least 14 unknown photographers. There are probably more further up on Main and on Houston which we don't get to see much of.

Greg, It is not a minor convoluted reason. It is the primary reason to get Oswald out of the doorway or off the street and put him in the TSBD with time for him to be on the 6th floor and then come down to the 2nd floor break room after the assassination. Truly and Baker, I discount as creditable along with Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. The 2nd floor break room story comes after Baker said he and Truly went up the steps and met someone on the 3rd or 4th floor. That story was dropped and not mentioned again. If the 2nd floor break room story is true then why didn't Baker mention it the first time around. Baker followed Truly's lead on that story. He had to go with what was the official story that was being cooked at the time. Otherwise, he would be in trouble with the DPD, a very sinister organization. Baker had to have passed Oswald/Prayer Man as he entered the TSBD. Both would have seen Oswald there so the man on the 3rd or 4th floor must have been someone else whose identity needed to be covered up. Truly was part of the plan and cover up. A good article to read is The Spider’s Web: The Texas School Book Depository and the Dallas Conspiracy By William Weston. This article by Weston puts the TSBD and its personnel in a bad light as far as drugs and gun running goes. And, it explains why Truly may have been part of the plan to begin with. For Prayer Man to become Oswald on the 2nd floor, he would have to gone into the building prior to Baker arriving at the TSBD and ran up the steps since the elevator was blocked on the 5th floor. And, Baker, according to accounts did that quickly. It doesn't leave any time for Prayer Man to be filmed at the doorway and then get ahead of Baker and Truly to run up to the 2nd floor. An alternative way to get to the 2nd floor is through the employees, of the various TSBD companies, first floor elevator. It was working at the time and near the entrance of the TSBD, I believe.

George, The site is telling me the PDF format for this file is too large to post. Sorry. I can still send it to you through email. Just send your email address to jbutlers@bardstowncable.net. Or, you can go to this post on the forum Anomalous witness statements in Dealey Plaza and find a pdf copy. This is an earlier version with 105 witnesses and possibly a couple of errors.

Jake, Does this lady have a balding hair pattern which I believe Andrej classified as a type 2 balding pattern? Harvey Oswald, the man shot at the DPD does. The lady has far too much hair to be Prayer Man. I deem Frazier as unreliable as far as the truth goes in who was standing in the door way of the TSBD during and after the assassination. I don't know who the person in the doorway is in Altgens 6 known as Doorway Man. It is my opinion that Doorway Man was not Billie Lovelady. Prayer Man and Doorway Man are not female. Sylvia Meagher believed there was another person involved with the name of Alex Hidell. She believed that Hidell was a real person and not an assumed disguise name. One could speculate that the real name of the person shot at the DPD was Alex Hidell from Belarus, Russia. The TSBD facts suggest there was more than one Oswald there that day. It's Harvey and Lee. The Oswald Project. I don't know how many Oswalds there were as part of a government run program. Or, how many other Doppleganger duos that were used by the government. As far as I know this is the only one to come to light. From Harvey and Lee: Frank Wisner and World War II Refugees "Frank Wisner was a Wall Street lawyer and during WW II worked for the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor of the CIA). After World War II ended thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under his supervision. National Security Council (NSC) records show that Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of thousands of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. Wisner became the CIA and State Department’s expert on European war refugees, and secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the 1940s and early 1950s.Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA. DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: “We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs. It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.” http://harveyandlee.net/Early/refugees.jpg http://harveyandlee.net/Early/children_ww2.jpg I put Allen Dulles as the mastermind of this use of foreign refugees. Frank Wisner was a henchman of Dulles. I credit Dulles as the man who originated this idea from his work of saving refugees from the German Military at the beginning of our involvement in WWII and after WWII. How many pairs of individuals similar to Harvey and Lee were made by the government is simply speculation? But, why make one when there were a host of children refugees available for use from countries other than Russia to make into doppelganger spy units?

What is Prayer Man doing in this gif courtesy of Chris Davidson? Some images taken from this gif: Well, the answer to the question is that he is doing the same thing that we see him doing on Elm Street in the John Martin film. Taking pictures. Wesley Buell Frazier is seen in the film standing next to Prayer Man/Oswald. Frazier denies that Oswald was there. I don't find Frazier credible in most of his statements based on this. Obviously, Oswald did not trust him either. When he went back to Irving the night before the assassination, it was to get a camera. Not Curtain rods. What he told Frazier was curtain rods to throw him off what he was doing. I suspect Oswald was told to film the motorcade. This was a task to hold him at the TSBD at the right moment. Meanwhile, while Prayer Man/Oswald was outside the building another Oswald was inside the TSBD and was on the 6th floor faking the assassination so that the man shot at the Dallas Police Station could be framed.

This is a better list of witnesses. Several errors were corrected and a few extra witnesses added. I can convert this to a pdf if anyone is interested. Witnesses Who Heard Shooting When The President Was Turning Into the Intersection Or In Front Of The TSBD (best list) x.docx

I didn't say that. What I said was over 100 witnesses testified to something different than what happened at Z 313. I didn't speak about the headshot taking place somewhere else (But, I guess you could take it that way). Basically, what the witnesses were saying was that the assassination didn't happen in front of the Grassy Knoll but in front of the TSBD (most of the witnesses referred to said this, but there were exceptions pointing to Main Street and the intersection of Houston and Main). I posted this information on the forum some time ago and can be seen here: At the time there was 105 witnesses plus several that could be taken that way. I have added a few since.

Greg, If you did get access, then you would find that their copy of Darnell is the same as what we see on the internet or Groden's films. Nothing new here, move along would be what you would probably find at the 6th floor museum. They can't afford to have something different. Someone might see a difference filmed by Couch and Darnell. In particular the Darnell film was ruined because it might have shown something diffferent. Oswald/Prayerman was out on Elm Street during the shooting of President Kennedy. This can be seen in the John Martin film. He filmed the p. limo as it passed his spot under the trees when shooting occurred. Then, he took cover in the TSBD doorway. There he continued to take photos as demonstrated by the gif provided by Chris Davidson. The camera flash of Oswald can be seen on Elm Street and later in the doorway of the TSBD as Prayerman in Couch/Darnell. The two are connected by the flashing camera. Many witnesses in the TSBD described the sounds of shooting coming from the west of the TSBD. Others closer than 40 feet away from the Sniper's Nest window on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th floors did not hear any sounds of shooting coming from the 6th floor sniper's nest. They were directly under the Sniper's Nest or just off by several windows. Two witnesses on the 5th floor said they heard shooting directly above them coming from the Sniper's Nest. These witnesses are Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman. Junior Jarman changed his story later indicating he heard shooting sounds coming from the left and below. This would be either the Dal-Tex or the Court Records Building. Norman and Williams are believed to be the best witnesses even when many more witnesses say something different. Their version of shooting from the Sniper's Nest is the one favored by the official story and not the other witnesses. It is a shame that Bonnie Ray had to make 4 witness statements to get his testimony right and Junior simply changed his when talking to Gerald Ford. So, this version of Oswald was not in the TSBD to fulfill many of the things you discuss. This type of thinking leads to a second Oswald in the TSBD. This is Harvey and Lee thinking. The second Oswald is demonstrated by there being people who saw him in the TSBD at about the time of the shooting or just before. Two different escape stories of how Oswald left the TSBD to return to his room indicates more than one Oswald.

I use a posting service that doesn't post images to the forum. It posts a link to the image that works as well as posting the image.

Why? Numbers. If a few people diverge from what others are saying then one may question what they say. Perhaps discount it, or try to find other info to authenticate it. Take for instance the 3 Ladies of the Court House. They said they heard shooting on Main Street when the p. limo was on Main Street. There were several others around the intersection of Main and Houston who said they heard shooting when the p. limo was on Main Street or in the intersection. These witnesses are around a dozen or so. But, if over 100 witnesses are saying something different from the Official Story then one must sit up and pay attention. Something is wrong with the Official Story if over 100 witnesses, somewhere around 114, testified to something different than the head shot at Z313 and what is seen in other films related to the shooting in front of the Grassy Knoll. This is roughly 20% of the witnesses who made statements.

There's a number of reasons for this. One of which is there are a number of witnesses, over 100, who saw something different from what Abe Zapruder's eyes, the camera, saw. In fact, there is good evidence to say the camera film is different from what Abe Zapruder saw. To repeat what was said above, "but they don't realize that the whole thing, including the early frames, is worthless as evidence." And, without the Zapruder film and others that match it what do you have for evidence for the Official Story? Early on there are 3 pieces of evidence about the assassination for the public consumption to convince everyone that Oswald was the killer.. The Zapruder film, Altgens 6, and Mary Moorman's Polaroid. All are altered. And, their testimony suspect.

I think Chris says it all in relation to the claim Hickey was the head wound shooter. Kennedy was shot in the head from the front and not the rear where Hickey was.

According to his last video, Holt was an assassin for the CIA and the Mafia. And, this was what he did for decades.

This may help with what a Chevy and Rambler wagon would look like in those days.

Oswald was right when he said "that is not even my face". Can you see the differences? I see several things right off. 1. The hair pattern is different. BYP Oswald has less hair and of a different color. 2. The eyes and eyebrows are not the same 3. The ears are not the same. BYP Oswald has bigger ears. Measure them in relation to the eyes and mouth. BYP Oswald lacks the distinctive pattern of the left ear of Dallas DPD Oswald. 4. The chin is not the same. BYP Oswald's chin is broader. You can talk all you want about camera angles. It is just so much background noise to me. Oswald says "that just a fake". He talks about someone superimposing his face on the photo. And, that is just standard photo altering technique. A lot of photos of Oswald are done that way.

Bugliosi won 103 out of 104 prosecutions, if my memory serves. The question is did he do it in the same manner that he wrote his Kennedy book? That book makes one want to go back and rethink what he did with Charlie Manson. Don't get me wrong. I am not making a case for Manson. I am questioning Bugliosi's methods.

Chris, It's a shame that Dealey Plaza films don't have this quality. I wonder why? If you notice, the seating of the presidential party it is different in this photo. I wonder if this says that for the assassination people had to sit where they were, say as we see in Zapruder, and in not some other arrangement. Does this say that Yarborough was due to be hit also? Does this indicate better then the death bed confession of E. Howard Hunt that Yarborough was on Johnson's S list and anything going Kennedy's way would also be going his way. Speaking of Dealey Plaza films, why is there only what we know of today? There were thousands of people along the motorcade route. Where are all the films that were shot by folks we don't know of that day. There were hundreds of folks along Main Street, but we have the material from just a few people along Main Street. 1. Patsy Paschall 2. George Jefferies 3. Robert Yeargan 4. David Powers These are the films that we know of about the JFK motorcade in Dallas. I content there should be many more. Perhaps hundreds. Were they seized by the FBI at the various photo developers in Dallas? It is a question that may not have an answer. At least one that we can ask today? I recall a film where at a TV studio or some agency there were piles of film thrown out on the floor to become trash. I wonder what they showed? Would they show something different from the edited films below? Zapruder film) Couch Film Nix Film Bell Film Hughes Film Bronson Film Muchmore Film Towner Film Paschall Film Darnell Film Jefferies Film Wiegman Film Mentesana Film Dorman Film Martin Film Daniels Film

David, Thanks. I believe you are right. This is the David Powers film. I wonder why he stopped filming there? Many thanks.

I have thousands and thousands of files. It is real easy to get lost in them since they are not that organized. And, memory is becoming more and more of a problem. So, I have decided to organize these files so that a search will find most related files. I do remember working on this before with Clint Hill getting on and off the vehicle several times. Was he warned off the vehicle, but got back on anyway? Did he know something or suspect something?

This is a strange film. It is if someone in the SS security car is filming this. Who would that be? A Secret Service man? Or, one of the others in the vehicle? Maybe Powers or O'Donnell? I have never found a good reason for Clint Hill to mount the back of the vehicle then get off and later do it again. Also, at the beginning of the film there were SS men running along side the p limo. I didn't know they did this during the Dallas Motorcade. In this scene the p. limo must have stopped.

WTH! When I looked at this a moment ago the film had disappeared. Now it is back. Hmmm?

Does anyone know who filmed this film? It looks like someone in the Secret Service security vehicle filmed it? This film gives one a view of the early part of the route of the motorcade. It ends on Main Street with Clint Hill on the back of the p limo. Where this film ends one can continue with what happens by watching the AMIPA film. It's best to click on the Watch on YouTube button.

Greg, If you talk about Oswald's red (CE 151) or brown shirt (CE 150), you have to go in the direction of when/where the shirt was worn and by who. The connection between Elm Street Prayer Man and the TSBD door way Prayer Man is very strong. This connection is based on three things. The resemblance to the two figures, the red shirt iddentified by many as worn by Oswald (Harvey), and the flashing camera seen on Elm Street in John Martin film and the flashing camera on the TSBD doorway (credit Chris Davidson) as seen in Couch film. The flashing camera links the two. If as you say, Mrs. Reid did see Oswald in a 1-2 minute period after the assassination in a white t-shirt, then that Oswald cannot be the Oswald on Elm Street and the doorway of the TSBD. Elm Street Oswald/Prayer Man is filming the p. limo as it goes by his position and as shots ring out at at the SW corner of the TSBD. There is no time to pickup and put on a red shirt. Baker is seen in film to move toward the TSBD doorway just seconds after the shots. And, if not wrong I believe Prayer Man was already there in the doorway. There is a lot of controversy over the Roger Craig/bus-cab ride stories. These stories indicate two Oswalds and therefore must be false or in need of contradiction to some. The film shots from the two films above indicate there were two Oswalds. The red shirt (I believe C151) along with the Roger Craig/bus-cab ride stories cinches it.