John Butler

Where's the crowds? No need to respond. This is from the 1960 election and Kennedy's tour of Kentucky. This is on the Carothers Road, Newport, KY. Saw when he was in Bowling Green, Ky.

Where's the crowds? No need to respond. This is from the 1960 election and Kennedy's tour of Kentucky. This is on the Carothers Road, Newport, KY. Saw when he was in Bowling Green, Ky.

Instead of being a shooter, he was a poser posing as if he was a shooter. Gil Jesus in another thread just made the point that the Carcano found at the TSBD was not fired until the FBI test fired it. I think I got that right. Advise if not what Gil said. Also a study of the witnesses on the 3rd, 4th, and fifth floor indicates the shooting occurred else where. Only Harold Norman of "clack-clack" fame remained consistent is his testimony. Most of the witnesses heard shooting from the west towards the grassy knoll and railroad bridge. Two, Junior Jarman and Elsie Dorman heard shooting from the left or east. Jarman's low and left shot could be the Dal-Tex. Elsie"s left hand shot was from the east, the Court Records Building.

Same film. Same lighting. Why the difference? The light comes from overhead and is stable. There are no camera flashes. Blow up the left hand Oswald. Lighting strips corners of the mouth, lips, and chin. Air gun spray was sprayed to far up on the chin and had to covered by two lighting strips. With stable overhead lighting camera angles should not make a difference as demonstrated by the right hand Oswald from the end of the film. The shadow under the chin is way darker than it should be. Instead of shadow one finds black ink or paint of ink consistency. IMO.

Chris, A number of good points. I don't go along with the notion that photo of Oswald on that Friday night is the head for the BYPs. That scraggly bush in the photo indicates spring. Krome's flip of the photo shows how absurd the stance is. Tony has made a number of good points. Oswald in NO has wider hips than the BYP Oswald. Another indication the body belongs to someone else.

It couldn't be Marina and it must have been someone else like his mother. Marina would mean Soviet involvement and possible war. A phony excuse to cover up Marina as participating in the JFKA would be dear old mom.

That would be Marina? Our favorite Soviet "honey pot' spy.

From Captain Fritz’s first WC testimony (4/22/1964): Mr. BALL. You did ask him how he explained the photograph, didn't you? Mr. FRITZ. How he explained the photograph? Mr. BALL. Yes. Mr. FRITZ. I asked him about the photograph and he said someone else took it. It wasn't his picture at all. He said someone in the hall had taken his picture and made that photograph. Mr. BALL. In other words, he said the face was his face but the picture was made by somebody superimposing his face? Mr. FRITZ. That is right; yes. Mr. BALL. He denied ever having lived on Neely Street, did he? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he did. Mr. BALL. And you asked him also if he had ever owned a rifle? Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. What did he say? Mr. FRITZ. He said he had not. He said a long time ago he owned a small rifle. There is one thing wrong with this analysis. If someone at the DPD in the hallway took Oswald’s photo and transformed it into a Backyard Photo, then they didn’t photograph his injuries from the beating he took at the Texas Theater and I suspect the DPD. Or, they removed those injuries and the BYPs are still fraudulent times 2. Another big question is when was the film that shows Oswald with a large, square chin taken? Friday night or Saturday night?

Tony, I have never seen this before. Can you cite a source, perhaps from Fritz?

So, are you saying you think there was a HARVEY and LEE project?

Hey, I feel left out. I want a jacket too.

Woo Woo

Ditto.

When did Robert Oswald see his brother in reference to the “hunter” photo? Tony Krome “You are highlighting some confusion on behalf of Robert Oswald. Vada's parents, who owned the farm, said Oswald visited only on two occasions. Once in 1962, when he came back from Russia, and once before he entered the Marines. On both occasions they said he went rabbit hunting. Vada's dad said he noticed that Oswald's shooting skills had not improved even after his time in the Marine Corps, a statement that implies that Oswald was at the farm before the Marines.” Jim Hargrove “NOTE: On November 22 , 1963, FBI Agent Charles Brown interviewed Robert Oswald and reported, "He only saw his brother one time during the period of time he was in the service, at which time Lee came home on furlough to Fort Worth. "Robert Oswald's wife, Vada, said that Lee Oswald took leave four or five months after she and Robert were married (they were married in November, 1956). This would place Lee Oswald's first visit to Fort Worth in March, 1957 which agrees with the Marine Corps records and L. M. McCracken's memory (Marguerite's neighbor) of seeing Lee Oswald when he visited his mother at 3830 W. 6th. On February 20, 1964 Robert told the Warren Commission that he and his brother had hunted at the farm (his in laws farm) on two occasions and placed one of those dates at September, 1958. It is probable that Robert saw his brother, Lee, during two separate Marine leaves-in March, 1957 and November, 1958.” The ”hunter” photo from Robert Oswald’s book says the date was February, 1958. Lee: A Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald by His Brother Hardcover – January 1, 1967 by Robert L Oswald (Author), Myrick Land (Collaborator), Barbara Land (Collaborator) The President's Commission met at 9:30 a.m., on February 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE, Washington, D.C. Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and Allen W. Dulles, members. Also present were Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; William McKenzie, attorney for Robert Edward Lee Oswald and Leon Jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of Texas. “Mr. OSWALD. The day that I recall that Lee stayed with us in-between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for New Orleans was a period of 2 to 3 days. One of those days, I feel sure was it Saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time Lee and I, and my brother-in-law went hunting. Mr. DULLES. Was this a couple of days before he left for Russia? Mr. OSWALD. This was a couple of days before he left for New Orleans or about 1 day or 2 days before he left for New Orleans.” “…Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate the frequency of that? Mr. OSWALD. If I recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. This was during a leave that Lee had from the Marine Corps. Mr. JENNER. During a leave that he had? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. And at which time, if I may correct myself there, another time comes to mind, I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. [When was this is the question] I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything. The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, [This would have been in 1962] during his stay at my home in Fort Worth, that my wife and I and our children took him and his wife and child out to the farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. I believe this was on a Sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long. Mr. JENNER. What weapons did you use on that occasion? Mr. OSWALD. On that occasion, I believe the same weapons we used before. Mr. JENNER. Would that be true of all three occasions? [Three occasions?] Mr. OSWALD. I believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion that Lee came home on leave, that at that time I only owned one .22 rifle. Mr. JENNER. Was that the semiautomatic? Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt action rifle, with a clip on it. However, I believe Lee either used my brother-in-law's rifle Mr. JENNER. Was that a bolt-action rifle? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. He either used that rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another .22 that was out at the farm. Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was. Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions that you recall hunting with Lee he employed a bolt- action rifle? Mr. OSWALD. That is correct, sir.” I believe we have enough information to form a timeline concerning the hunter photo. Pre-Sept., 1956- Tony Krome has provided information from Vada’s parents, Vada’s dad that Oswald visited the farm prior to being in the Marines for hunting. February, 1957- Jim Hargrove relates that “Robert Oswald's wife, Vada, said that Lee Oswald took leave four or five months after she and Robert were married (they were married in November, 1956). [This is why this date is selected for 4 months] March, 1957- Jim also said “This would place Lee Oswald's first visit to Fort Worth in March, 1957 which agrees with the Marine Corps records and L. M. McCracken's memory (Marguerite's neighbor) of seeing Lee Oswald when he visited his mother at 3830 W. 6th.” David Josephs timeline indicates this was Harvey rather than Lee. [Could this Feb. or March date of 1957 be recalled inaccurately by Robert Oswald?] March, 1957- David adds this about Lee, “Robert tells an FBI agent he sees his brother ONCE, Feb/Mar 57, while his testimony adds "Sept 58" although it was Nov-Dec 58” February, 1958- Lee: A Portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald by His Brother Hardcover – January 1, 1967. This “hunter” photo says that the date for the hunting visit was February, 1958. September, 1959- In his WC testimony Robert Oswald said, “I recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. One time was during a leave that he had from the Marine Corps. [When was this is the question?] I don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. I know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. I don't recall of anything.” September, 1959- Robert’s recollection of the Sept., 1959 visit is more specific and identifies the time of the hunting photo incident. “Mr. JENNER. On the occasion during which you went hunting during that 3-day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for New Orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon? Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; it was.” This part of the interrogation indicates the date was in Sept., 1959. 1962?- ”The second time that I now remember is during his stay after he returned from Russia, during his stay at my home in Fort Worth,” Of the witnesses, Vada Oswald, Vada’s parents, and Robert Oswald more or less agree that Oswald visited Vada Oswald’s dad’s farm after his visit to the Soviet Union. The problem arises when we consider the date for Oswald’s visit the farm for hunting in or around the period 1957 to 1959. When was it? And, from the evidence presented above how could you prove it? My best guess is Feb., 1957. This is from the statement of Vada Oswald indicating a period 4 or 5 months after her wedding to Robert. Feb., 1957 is also the time that David Josephs puts Harvey Oswald in Dallas. Why not Robert’s version of Feb., 1958 on the photo. Or, his Sept., 1959 date before the WC. Tony Krome thinks Robert was confused. Maybe? Or, maybe he was telling the WC version of events in 1964. Perhaps, later in the book in 1967 he recalled things a bit closer to the truth when he said Feb., 1958. Tony is right, maybe. Confusion based on a poor memory? Jim Hargrove makes this statement in contradiction: “On February 20, 1964 Robert told the Warren Commission that he and his brother had hunted at the farm (his in laws farm) on two occasions and placed one of those dates at September, 1958.” Jim may have made a typo here saying Sept., 1958 instead of what Robert Oswald’s testimony indicates as Sep., 1959. If not please reply with more info. If anyone wants to add to this timeline please post new information. The Feb., 1957 date works for Harvey Oswald. From David Josephs timeline Harvey Oswald was on leave at “ON LEAVE at 3830 W 6th #3”. The Feb., 1958 does not for Lee Oswald. He was in the area of the South China Sea or the Philippines. David Josephs timeline has Lee Oswald at Camp Pendleton from “20 Jan 1957 - 26 Feb 1957 'A' Company . 1st Battalion” and “Robert tells an FBI agent he sees his brother ONCE, Feb/Mar 57, while his testimony adds "Sept 58" although it was Nov-Dec 58” Though the Sep. 1959 date given by Robert Oswald in his WC testimony is 3 years before the book photo, it is probably what the WC required for the Official Story. As with most JFKA events what you find is confusion and contradiction. I now favor the Feb. or March, 1957 date. This could be from poor memory by Vada Oswald for 1957 or Robert Oswald when he or his collaborators typed the date of Feb., 1958 on the photo. I don’t think Vada’s memory was poor since she mentioned the time as after her wedding which she would not have forgotten. David Josephs timeline has Harvey in Ft. Worth in Feb., 1957. Sorry, this editor has done strange things to font and size here.

Closer: Russian Harvey/Hungarian?- receding hairline both sides/comb overs, long and narrow nose, earlobes, narrow chin. American Lee- More hair than Harvey, wider nose, no earlobes, broad, but short chin. Can you see the difference between these two children?

Interesting. But, doesn't work.

Someone has tried to prove or show Oswald had a square or wide chin in the film by alteration of the chin in the film presented in this thread. This would match the photo of Oswald as seen in the Backyard Photos. This is simply an attempt to prove the validity of the Backyard Photos. There is always someone who will quote the WC or HSCA statements that the Backyard Photos are authentic. There is not many people who believe that after Jack White and other researchers provided at least 15 things wrong with the photo. I added an extra to howls of outrage. The best guest is that Roscoe White is the author of the Backyard Photos. White provided the body up to and including the chin. Oswald provided the head down to the chin. Oswald said his head was superimposed on the body when shown the photo. He said he could prove it. The photo below gives one a look at Roscoe's chin and the peculiarity of his wrist. They match the photo giving a good possibility that Roscoe White is the author. Leaving the wide chin is an indication that the author of the Backyard Photos was not a skilled photo editor. The introduction of the Backyard Photos and their falsity is one of the many reasons Oswald had to die. Proving their falsity in court would prove that Oswald was framed and therefore innocent. Here is something a ran across while looking for the White/Oswald comparison: [[ posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk on 10/08/96 by: jackwhite ]] ===================================================== ------------------------- The Roscoe White Curse? ----------------------- About 6 years ago I was at the old JFK-AIC in the Dallas West End when the Roscoe White News Conference was held. At the **head table** in the front of the assembly space, in addition to Ricky White and Roscoe*s minister, were 5 prominent JFK researchers. All were comparatively young or middle-aged and vigorous, and each presented some aspect of the Roscoe White story. These researchers were... BERNARD **BUD** FENSTERWALD GARY SHAW LARRY HOWARD JOE WEST LARRY RAY HARRIS Now, about 6 years later 4 of the 5 are dead, despite their relative youth and vigor. Coincidence? Or curse? Given their ages and good health, it would be interesting to see actuarial statistics on this, in the manner of the famed **mysterious deaths** study. FENSTERWALD, who founded/funded the Washington Assassination Information Bureau and supported the AIC, became ill while dining in Dallas. He cancelled appointments and flew back to Washington, where he died of a sudden **heart attack**. WEST, the Houston private investigator who later discovered the James Files story, was just fine when I talked with him on the phone on a Friday. Almost incidentally, he told me that at a recent health check-up, his doctor recommended heart by-pass surgery for the following Monday; he said he would call me after the surgery. The heart surgery was a success...but his breathing never resumed. He was kept alive for a while by a lung machine, but died without ever regaining consciousness. HOWARD, the ardent JFK buff who (with Gary Shaw) co-founded the Dallas JFK Information Center, had been doing further Roscoe White research in West Texas, along with a **former FBI agent**. While driving late at night, Larry suffered a **stroke**. When he died, the JFK-AIC died with him. HARRIS, the young reseach expert on the Tippit killing, has now died in a recent auto accident (one-car?) for which we have few details as of now. SHAW, the other co-director of the AIC, is the SOLE SURVIVOR of this group. We hope that Gary is very very careful in the future, whether these deaths are curse, conspiracy, or coincidence. GENEVA WHITE DEES, Roscoe*s widow, also died during this period. Less than a year after attending this news conference, I was attacked in my bedroom at 5 a.m. on Sunday by a nude intruder, who (unprovoked) stabbed me in the chest with an ice pick 12 times and hit me in the head, fracturing my skull and destroying my hearing (right ear) and balance (permanent vertigo). At the time I was serving as a (unpaid) photo consultant to Oliver Stone in the production of JFK. I was in the hospital for 22 days with the skull fracture and collapsed lung, for four days near death. Coincidence? Conspiracy? Or Roscoe White curse?

Jim, I'm glad your taking a second look at the "hunter" photo. I am always uncomfortable when my ideas diverge from yours and John Armstrong's ideas. If you recall when we were going over photos of Oswald my original call on that photo was Lee Oswald. That photo simply did not look like Harvey. I changed my mind after doing work on Harvey's DPD mug shot and identifying things that are unique to Harvey. Then I read the notation typed at the top of the photo. And, subsequently learned that this photo was from Robert's book. February, 1958 is the clincher that this was Harvey. I know Robert later changed this to Sept, 1959 when Oswald got out of the Marines. But, I didn't warm up to this due to reading hundreds of witness testimonies in Dealey Plaza. There the first testimony was always preferable to later statements that changed what the first statements said. If the February, 1958 date is correct then that has to be Harvey. Lee was out in the South China seas or in the Philippines. Harvey was AWOL in New Orleans or other places. Harvey's photos would be like the "hunter" photo if he didn't have his hair cut where he could use comb overs to hide the receding hair lines. He was very successful with this hair style and most people would not or did not see his real hair state. After being beat up in the Texas Theater and I suspect during interrogation at the DPD, photos there reveal the true state of his hair problems.

I provided a gif with 10 photos and perhaps as many cameras with different lighting and angles. The chin remained narrow in comparison to the film. A question one could ask in the left hand Harvey photo is where is the light source? Is it coming from the front? Or, overhead? Or, left hand side? It appears to be from the overhead or if one wanted to be generous the front.. Forehead, nose, and chin appear to get more light. The right hand ear is obscured by light. How did that happen on the right hand or shadowed side? Would you really have a dark noticeable shadow under the chin if the light was coming form the Left hand side or from the front? Probably overhead. Only lighting from the left hand side could make the large and dark shadow on the right hand side of Harvey's face. If you look at the man directly behind Harvey then you will see his right hand side is high lighted and in contradiction to the shadows on Harvey's face. There could be multiple light sources in that hall way. But, I think there were only overhead lights. Perhaps flash bulbs contributed to the lighting mess one sees in the photo. Or, perhaps not.

JIm, As you know New York, even in those days, had a large immigrant population. Different countries and different accents. It would have been interesting if that Eastern European accent had been identified. Still, that is getting closer to Harvey's roots. If I had to guess I would say Russian with some Hungarian connection due to the book of Hungarian poems he had in his possession. And, the tie in with Hungarian communists in NY such as Weinstock.

Don't forget Danny Arce. I recall from somewhere he knew or had a couple of relatives who were significant anti-Castro folks. I could find this info again. He was out on the Elm and Houston intersection with a walkie-talkie. This can be seen in a blowup of Altgens 6. As far as I know he was the only one with dark raincoat on that day. IMO, he was a direct conspirator in the assassination by providing signals to shooting teams.

Any thing that the "H & L crowd aka the John Butler trio" has said can't be as ludicrous as this. I'm going to take this as a spoof. It's one of the reasons I don't converse with these people. I am going back to that policy.

Compare to the end of the film. This just shows the accuracy of the Harvey Oswald identification characteristics that come primarily from his mug shot at the DPD. Be sure to expand the film frame above and compare it to a later frame in the film. The cover up continues with this film.

Why? If in rough terrain the simplest explanation is to tuck one's trousers inside the boots. For the lower legs it keeps one's trousers from snagging in brush and tripping a fellow.

Jim and I get along quite well and have for years. We agree on 99.9 percent of John Armstrong's account. I am simply exploring other avenues that I think might be right and I have done that in the past. Sometimes, it is helpful, others not. There is weak evidence for this notion at present.