John Butler

Witness Statements: 1. Harold Norman- 11-26-63 FBI statement Norman said he heard a shot as the vehicle turned onto Elm St. 2. Bonnie Ray Williams- Sheriff’s Office on 11-22-63- first said he heard shot when the presidential limo turned onto Houston. Later, he changed that to a turn onto Elm St. and then later changed that. 3. James “Junior” Jarman- Warren Hearing on March 24, 1964- At first, Jarman said much the same as Williams and Norman. He later changed his testimony at the WC to hearing shots from low and to the left. That is shooting from Houston Street. This could be from the Dal-Tex. 4. Mary Hollies- 2-18-64 statement to Detective Potts said she heard 3 shots as the motorcade turned into the intersection. She noticed smoke on a little hill over to the west. Mary Hollies and Alice Foster are placed with 5th floor witnesses due to Mary’s 6th Floor Museum interview in January, 2011. This contradicts her earlier statements. 5. Betty Alice Foster-3-19-64 FBI statement- She heard something like fireworks after the President’s car turned down Elm St. 6. Elsie Dorman- 11-23-63 FBI report, 3-20-64 FBI report. She thought shots came from the Court Records Building on Houston St. She became excited and quit filming at the time the President was on Houston Street at the Court Records Building. 7. Sandra Styles- In a statement made to the FBI on 3-19-64 she said she heard shots but, did not know where they came from and offered no other relevant information. However, in a video published in October, 2017 she said as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection she heard 3 shots. Reference: Jobert Jefford Paulson video, Oct. 17, 2017- The Case of the Lady Who Did Not See the Assassin. 8. Vickie Adams- 11-24-63- She said when the president’s vehicle entered the intersection of Elm and Houston she heard 3 shots. She could not see the shooting since it happened while the presidential limousine was under trees. And, that would be in front of the TSBD. 9. Dorothy Garner- 3-20-64 FBI report- When the shots occurred the presidential vehicle was out of sight, obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. 10. Yola Hopson- 12-1-63- FBI report- She heard two or more sounds / firecrackers when the presidential limousine was obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. 11. Steven Wilson- 3-25-64- FBI statement- He said he heard 3 shots while the president was obscured by trees. This would be in front of the TSBD. 12. Rosemary Willis- Interviewed by Joe Nick Patoski- Rosemary: Anyway, it seemed strange to me. Then the next thing I know, the limousine is turning the corner again. Onto Elm. From Main to Houston to Elm. And so, just as they start, they've just made that turn, they're going along, and the first gun shot was fired. Immediately, I look up to where I thought I heard the sound, and what I notice is this pigeon, upon the impact .... Rosemary: As they made the turn from Houston to Elm Street, they'd just gone a few feet when the first shot rang out, and upon hearing the sound, my normal body reaction was to look up and follow the sound that I heard, it was so abrupt. I didn't know what it was, but I was looking for what I heard. And the pigeons immediately ascended off that roof of the school book depository building and that's what caught my eye. My eyes were searching for what I heard and I see the pigeons, you know, they're scared to death, and take off in abrupt flight. 13. Toni Glover- in a YouTube video from the JFK Assassination Forum, Rare Interview With JFK Assassination Witness Toni Glover Who Was Only 11 Years Old In 1963, Toni Glover said as Kennedy rounded the corner (corner of Houston and Elm intersection) his head exploded. 14. Tina Towner- in a YouTube video, Witnesses to the JFK assassination: Three Dallas Stories- LA Times by Brian van der Brug, she said things that indicate shooting occurred as the presidential vehicle turned into the intersection and in front of the TSBD. The article said she stopped filming after the presidential limousine turned into the intersection. If that’s true then who filmed her the rest of her film? Kodak plant in Rochester New York? 15. Linda Willis- Warren Commission- July 22, 1964- that she was standing in front of the TSBD when the motorcade came by. She initially said she heard shots there. Then, later she said she was standing across Elm Street from the Stemmons Freeway sign. There is where she heard shots and saw the head shot. She said she was directly across the street from the Stemmons sign when the first shot hit him. These are just 15 witnesses out of approximately 115 who made statements concerning shooting in the intersection of Elm and Houston, or in other areas such as Main Street and the Main and Houston intersection. These people were on the street or above looking down at the Elm and Houston intersection, or Elm Street in front of the TSBD.

Who do you believe in Dealey Plaza? Bell or,? Or, Bell? Or, perhaps Altgens? Or, Martin? Dealey Plaza during the JFKA or after is a confusing place at best.

The use of the double man or double spy is ancient and not something of the present. It is a useful spy technique. Twins are best or triplets. Or, people that resemble each other closely, like the Oswalds. The reasoning behind having such a tool in your spy bag of tricks is obvious. One twin does something say in New York. Gets blamed for it. But, has an alibi in Los Vegas established by the other half. Twin or look alike in New York goes free. Consider the Bolton Ford incident. WWII was the beginning of espionage on a national level in the US. I believe it was Simpson, Secretary of State, in the 30's said gentlemen don't read others mail. However, we did have a long term intelligence agency that did most of the spy work before the OSS. This was the ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence. Many believe Oswald was a tool of the CIA and the ONI, and believe his military service in the Marines was more than likely supervised by the ONI. I will repeat again:

Nearly everyone misses the significance of what what Rosemary said. They always focus on where the shots came from and try to put them in some perspective with the witnesses or the Z film. Folks never think or ask where was the p. limo. Rosemary and other witnesses like Tony Glover tell you. The p. limo had just turned the corner when shooting occurred. This contradicts everything people had heard before and it gets dismissed. It just couldn't have happened that way.

I always thought this photo was of Jack Ruby in a newsroom and it was part of his alibi while the JFKA happened in Dealey Plaza. They may be policemen. The person on the left hand appears to have something resembling handcuffs hanging from his belt. Pease advise if wrong.

If there is one thing I have learned about photos in the JFKA is that you need to look at the photos in question carefully. This photo could be Ruby or a look alike cop. I am going to settle for Ruby until someone identifies the look alike cop. Why? There is a lot of distortion in the photo. The sideburn may be angled due motion blur and light blur. It seems to be part of the blurred and distorted ear.

I think you are right. I read the first part of Truly's testimony with Ball is that Ball is coaching him on what to say. He is establishing the ground rules.

The H & L detractors sound pretty much the same. Are they the same person? Or, perhaps people working in the same group sharing ideas? I'm just wondering? Can't be true or is it? Why does Robert Charles-Dunne have a photo that does not show his face. I am pretty sure he is who he says he is, but the lack of a photo identity might mean something or not? Just curious. Is this a good definition of Gaslighting?: "Gaslighting is an insidious form of manipulation and psychological control. Victims of gaslighting are deliberately and systematically fed false information that leads them to question what they know to be true, often about themselves. They may end up doubting their memory, their perception, and even their sanity. Over time, a gaslighter’s manipulations can grow more complex and potent, making it increasingly difficult for the victim to see the truth."

Tony, What do you make of this? The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. “Mr. Ball. Now, Mr. Truly, this is a continuation of your deposition. I took the last one and you have been sworn and I don’t know that it is exactly necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a continuation of the deposition. I took the last one, didn’t I? Mr. Truly. Oh, no ; I gave a statement that was under oath. Mr. Ball. Oh, no ; this is a deposition. You appeared before the Commission — that’s right. Mr. Truly. Mr. Belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before I went up there when you both were in Dallas and he also took a recorded deposition. Mr. Ball. Yes; but that was just an investigation, an inquiry. We didn’t record that. You weren’t under oath then. Will you stand up and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?” Are there any copies of the Belin/Truly deposition? Gone with the wind? This indicates that Ball was coaching Truly to say the right things?

Some people think this scene may be where the first shot occurred. It is equivalent to about Z 160 at the west corner of the TSBD. I believe this person is Harvey Oswald and he is taking pictures with the camera he went home to get. He told Frazier he had curtain rods in that paper bag. The images here are about the same quality as we see Prayer Man in the doorway. This person is taking a photo as the p. limo passes. An important question is what happened to this camera and film?

Tony, Can you post the Jack Ruby photo before it was modified? I have no problem seeing the two photos as Jack Ruby. The only problem I see with Jack Ruby photos is that in some photos he seems to have more hair and in others less. That's probably due to the amount of light reflecting off of Ruby's head. On the other hand he may have been darkening his scalp as some men do. This gives the appearance of more hair.

Could you speak more to this? Thanks

Ron, Thanks a lot for putting this out there. I didn't know someone had identified the man on the third or fourth floor. Particularly as Oswald. And, he doesn't identify Oswald then. But, later as you say. This could mean Baker and Truly had some part in the JFKA and Truly was more complicit than Baker. I have had thoughts that Harvey Oswald was not to make it out of Dealey Plaza. Baker with a gun to the belly story might be an invention and if it wasn't then that strengthens the notion that Harvey was to die at the TSBD or on the bus or in the Texas Theater. This is always what I have thought. I have some doubts on "Oswald" being the employee on the 3rd or 4th floor. Then again it could very well be the original Lee Harvey Oswald. Two Oswalds escape the TSBD. I have his doppleganger, Harvey, out on Elm Street taking photos of the p. limo and then becoming Prayer Man. This is according to the John Martin film.

From Harvey and Lee via Jim Hargrove: Frank Wisner was a Wall Street lawyer and during WW II worked for the Office of Strategic Services (predecessor of the CIA). After World War II ended thousands of Eastern European refugees were brought to the United States under his supervision. National Security Council (NSC) records show that Wisner, the CIA's director of clandestine operations, oversaw the re-location of thousands of anti-Communist exiles to the United States as a means of rewarding them for conducting secret operations against the Soviets. Wisner became the CIA and State Department’s expert on European war refugees, and secretly subsidized the refugee relief organizations that brought these Eastern Bloc refugees to the United States throughout the 1940s and early 1950s. Wisner and his group recognized they could use these Eastern European immigrant's knowledge, customs, and familiarity with their respective homelands. Wisner asked the National Security Council (NSC) to sanction the “systematic” use of such refugees, and they (the NSC) agreed. The NSC soon issued a top-secret intelligence directive (NSCID No. 14), which even today remains "classified," that authorized both the FBI and the CIA to find and jointly exploit the knowledge, experience, and talents of well over 200,000 Eastern European refugees resettled in the USA. The CIA soon contacted the Displaced Person's Commission (DPC), which worked closely with the leaders of refugee organizations in the USA. DPC chairman Ugo Carusi sent a memorandum to all refugee organizations in the USA that read: “We would like to advise that the U.S. Commission [DPC] has a formal agreement with the CIA to cooperate in every possible way to facilitate their programs. It is, therefore, altogether desirable that local representatives of the voluntary agencies and State Commissions and Committees make available to fully identified CIA agents the addresses of displaced persons.” I might add as a foot note that along with Frank Wisner, Allen Dulles was involved with this. He was stationed in Switzerland as the most important OSS agent. Switzerland and Dulles were the main conduit of refugees into the US during the war years.

Jonathan, I recognize you don't care much for the Harvey and Lee story. But, there was enough contradictory evidence on how "Oswald" left the TSBD. One by vehicle and one by bus. The two Oswalds had many years to perfect their game of switch-em. Most folks are not very good at facial recognition or comparing two objects. There is a thread, Oswald's Shirt currently up. Photos of Oswald's shirt were being compared. I looked at those years ago and didn't notice that they were different. One shirt had a hole in the sleeve and the other didn't. I thought about that and couldn't believe that people for 57 years didn't notice that in Shaneyfelt Exhibit No. 24, I hope I got that number right. I saw it immediately this time around. As I said I hope someone would have noticed that before. Surely, there is some one out there who has.

Tony, From your explanation, I think I am convinced. I was convinced years ago when I first read Baker's statements and Roy Truly's statement. The man on the 3rd or 4th floor could very well have been Oswald. But, which one? I have the one known as Harvey out on Elm Street and then later in the doorway as Prayer Man. Could Roger Craig have identified one Oswald from the other? The one he saw running down the hill was the one he identified as Oswald. This was Harvey at the DPD station.

I don't recall much from this discussion. I should re-read it, but I am a lazy fellow. If this has been discussed later in this thread then I apologize. Bart Kamp says that the person in Shaneyfelt exhibit number 24 is not Oswald. I will add to that and say it's not his shirt either. There are several accounts that Oswald's brown shirt was frayed or torn at the elbow on the right arm. Compare the following: One shirt has a tear and the other doesn't. They are not the same shirt. That is unless Linda Shaneyfelt got out her sewing kit. On Andrej's example I fail to see the hole in the shirt also. Again, I apologize if someone has already pointed this out. In a way this is good just to review.

Former Abilenian Gene Boone, who found rifle used to kill JFK, dies Timothy Chipp This quote is from later in the article. Would his confiscation of cameras be considered an illegal search and seizure? I wonder how many Dallas County officers seized cameras? How many DPD officers? Were they instructed to do that? There are at least 14 unknown camera people at a minimum in Dealey Plaza. “Several bystanders had cameras, and Boone said he confiscated them in case anyone had captured anything relevant on their film. He took the cameras back to the Sheriff's Office and left the film to be developed. Then Boone and other deputies went to the book depository to begin a search.”

Well said Mr. Healey. I wish I had to brains to say the same thing. I've been a fan since the days when you did work with Jack White, John Costella, and James Fetzner.

I read Jeremy Bojczuk's post and thought he went over the line after being warned about his language and other posters. I think he was testing the water to see if he could revert to his prior (and now consistent) insulting behavior. I think Mr. Gordon is being very patient with him in hopes of a more moderate behavior. My advice to Jeremy would be to pay heed to Mr. Gordon.

Each model of the Carcano and the Mauser are a little different in appearance. However, one can easily distinguish one rifle from the other. Quickly noticed features include a difference in magazines, sights, both front and rear, and stock configuration. I didn't see as much information stamped on the Carcano as one sees on a Mauser. That might be due to wear or cheaper metal than the Mauser. I did see info stamped on the other side of the Carcano, but not as extensive as the Mauser. I believe Weitzman, Boone, and Craig knew what they saw, a 7.65 MM Mauser. And, those who changed their testimony did that through loyalty, or perhaps fear and coercion.

There were many witnesses, about a dozen?, who were in the TSBD on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th floors. Most of those witnesses did not say they heard shots coming from the 6th floor or any place in the building. Most said the shots came from the SW of the building generally in the area of the Grassy Knoll and Triple Underpass. Only Harold Norman was consistent in saying shots came from the 6th floor Sniper's Nest above him. I've place red x's in what I think is the area of Caster/Southwest Publishing Co. Are they correct? If you look at one of Mary Moorman's Polaroids you will see that the trees cover the west side of the building concealing the windows. The trees were not that tall in 1963. It is an alteration of the photo. Why? Perhaps the answer is covering up people in office windows on the various floors on the west face. If Caster/Southwest Publishing Co. had offices on the west face of the TSBD, that location would be a good place to shoot from. That is if they could see above the trees on the west side.

Someone suggested that the lady taking a photo was shading her eyes in the Altgens 3 photo. No one else is doing that in the photo. I take it she was taking a photo. The entire photo shows this clearly. She has a camera rather than her purse shading her eyes. OBTW, this photo demonstrates that the man thought to be Seymour Weitzman in comparison to others is not that tall and not Hemming's height. But, there is a giant man with a black hat there directly behind the motorcycle policeman. This blowup of that portion of Altgens 3 shows the lady with a camera.

Dana, That is an interesting notion. The policeman (I see as very vague) has a black hat on which says he was probably a Dallas Police reserve officer. The person who you identified could be Weitzman, but I am not sure since the magnification of area is still very blurred. I can't find any information on how tall Seymour Weitzman was. Some one suggested he was short. But, I don't think that person was sure of his height. It would be good to know.

Here's an interesting thing about Weitzman. According to an internet video he identified, from a photo, a man who he thought was a Secret Service man. The SS man was Bernard Barker, former FBI agent and future Watergate burgler. BERNARND BARKER WAS FAKE SS AGENT BEHIND FENCE JFK MURDER WATERGATE CIA AGENTS - YouTube Right click and select open in a new window.