John Butler

Chris, If you look at the shadows in Dorman then you will see that they move toward the north indicating the sun was not directly in the face of those folks on north side of Houston. Lots of people have their hands up clapping, others are waving. There are people there with objects in their hands. I can only assume they are cameras. That's logical. There appears to be a sound or camera crew at the entrance between the two buildings, the Court House and the Records building. Notice the shadows. They are in a north/south direction. Most of Dorman has been edited to obscure what can be seen. In Dorman many of the frames showing the p. limo the contents of the cab are blacked out. Dorman is not a reliable film. To much editing has gone on in the film. This is a lightened frame showing exactly what the darkness is in the crowd on North Elm. Lots of people say Elsie was the poorest photographer. She wasn't. Her film was heavily edited. If not edited this film would have gone a long ways in explaining how the assassination occurred.

Tony, I believe you are correct. Welcome Eugene Barnett, Joe Marshall Smith, Edgar Smith, or at least one of them stopped traffic at the intersection after the VP and his security car had turned onto Elm. This left the Mayor's Car (car no. 11) in the intersection while the first 10 cars traveled down Elm Street. If there are any cars identifiable in that area they would be the Camera Cars rather than the VP and his security car. They have turned unto Elm somewhere just before and after Z 160. That appears to be just two white blobs suggesting a vehicle. However, you never know with the Zapruder frames. If you let your eyes wander there appears to be giant man in a suit and other giant figures. When things are this blurry and distorted you can see lots of things. It's like gazing at clouds.

Chris, The p. limo is passing by the Southwest corner of the Houston and Elm intersection. That place suffers from alternate realities. This can be seen by comparing Elsie Dorman to Zapruder. The number of people (and recognizable people) there at the same times is significantly different. The area between the lamppost and the Stemmons sign on north Elm is phony also. I call this area Manniken Row. Compare Zapruder and Bronson and they don't match either at the same time. There are all kinds of screwy things happening in that area. Here's an example. In the Elsie Dorman film Linda and Rosemary show up at the SW corner without Phil. Linda's later testimony says she and Rosemary ran along beside Phil to reach there. You can't find Phil in Elsie Dorman (?). I need to go back and look at that. Some people say Elsie Dorman was the worst photographer ever. Not so. Her film is heavily edited. Here is an example of something I asked David Healey. If you look at the cab of the p. limo you will see Kennedy and party are blacked out. This is the question I asked David Healey. Would it be possible to fill in the blacked out area with new Kennedy information that would suit your story. He said it would be difficult. Maybe in Elsie Dorman where angles would make that difficult. Notice also in the frame the Secret Service men are also blacked out. You are correct. Something is going on with the portrayal of the SS men. If you look carefully you can see these vehicles are cutouts. The right rear tire of the p. limo is tiny. Kinda like a cheap spare tire. In another instance the SS vehicle doesn't quite fit correctly into the space cut out for it. One can find these kind of things in almost every film and photo showing the p. limo on Houston and as it arrives on Elm and further down Elm.

Also difficult to track a moving object through the view finder. The point I was making was they had cameras. Obviously, they had taken pictures prior or would after this scene. Somewhere between 14 to 18 people had cameras on Houston and Elm Streets. I really need to look at my notes. I have something like 15 thousand files all of which are not in any kind of inventory order. So, stuff is hard to find. Along with this noting of unknown photographers in the media of Dealey Plaza is the idea that you can not see the passenger side of the vehicle on Elm and Houston. The exceptions are Skaggs and Zapruder. On Main Street coming down to the turn at the Main and Houston intersection basically in film all you see is the passenger side and the rear view as the p. limo approaches the intersection. There are films and photos available to see the p. limo on Main Street but, not as it approaches the intersection. What I am saying is the view of the p. limo is limited to certain sides of the vehicle in certain areas. There were photographers on the streets that we don't know anything about their film. And, the question is why?

Croft is an interesting photo. Again, many people just don't see things. They simply look in general and not in detail. There is at least one black woman or perhaps a man. I would say woman due to her hair. It is difficult to see. That person has a camera. I wonder what happened to the film or photos? There is another black woman there in a blue skirt. It is hard to tell whether but, she appears to be holding a camera. Wonder what happened to her film? And, then there is another black woman just west of the first person who may have a camera also. If I am recalling correctly there is about 14 people holding cameras as the motorcade went by on Houston and then Elm. They are unknown and their film is unknown. No one pays attention to these people. They are completely ignored by just about everyone.

This is after the assassination when lots of people went up to the railroad bridge area. Officer Foster and the railroad men were just off the bridge above the grassy slope that leads up to the bridge. The area where famous shot of the officer standing or about on the bridge. Yep. I have no doubt they moved out onto the bridge to get a better view of what happened. Not really. It uses only one reference for the most part. The infamous Zapruder film. .... Marion Baker- 11-22-63 Dallas County affadavit “At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building.” He gives this information on his general approach to the TSBD. He doesn’t mention any time for this behavior. But, by the time of the WC time has become important. Marion Baker- Warren Commission- 25 March 1964. On where he was stationed: “Mr. BAKER - There were four press cars carrying the press and I was right at the side of that last one. Representative BOGGS -The last press car? Mr. DULLES - The last press car? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.” (about the 15th car in the motorcade) And, when he left his station: “Mr. BELIN - All right. After the third shot, then, what did you do? Mr. BAKER - Well, I revved that motorcycle up and I went down to the corner which would be approximately 180 to 200 feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots. Mr. BELIN - What distance did you state? What we did on Friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much? Mr. BAKER - From 180 to 200 feet. Mr. BELIN - That is where you parked the motorcycle? Mr. BAKER - Yes.” Then Baker proceeded into the building…. “Representative BOGGS -That question about time I would like to establish. How long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred? Mr. BAKER - We went back and made two trial runs on that, and--- Mr. BELIN - Was that on Friday, March 20? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - All right. Mr. BAKER - And the first run we made it was a minute and 30 seconds, and-- Mr. DULLES - Will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot? Mr. BAKER - From the last shot. Mr. BELIN - The first shot. Mr. DULLES - The first shot? Mr. BAKER - The first shot. We simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that I did that day, and this would be the minimum, because I am sure that I, you know. it took me a little longer. Mr. DULLES - I want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw Oswald? Mr. BAKER - When we saw Oswald. Mr. DULLES - When you saw Oswald? Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Mr. DULLES - And that time is how much? Mr. BAKER - The first run would be a minute and 30 seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and 15 seconds.” It's clear from this record that most of the time of the 90 seconds was spent in the TSBD. How much time? Perhaps a minute and 10 or 15 seconds. Which would have given him about 15 or 20 seconds to arrive at the TSBD doorway. Perhaps just a little longer. He got to the building and entered before the camera cars were released to travel on Elm Street and the various camera men made their films. Conclusion: Baker was not the policemen seen in the Unger gif.

Tony, I was in Dealey Plaza in 2015. I met Robert Groden and crew. Groden painted an "X" in the street for years in defiance of the Dallas officials. That particular "X" looks closer then Groden's. But, on examining this photo they may be the same area. Thanks for replying.

Thanks David, A few years back James Fetzner, yourself, Jack White, and John Costella produced a series of videos on the assassination. If I am remembering correctly, John Costella said the Zapruder film was technically perfect with a few errors. I have been trying to figure that one since John Costella said that. My solution was just change the contents inside the cab of the p. limo. If I am reading your answer correctly then that would be hard to do. About the head wound debris? I haven't read anywhere that the SS security vehicle was covered with gore. Jackie Kennedy remained basically untouched by the head wound ejection. A motorcycle policemen riding to the side was hit by the head wound spray of material. That leaves a narrow angle for that mess to fly off in a backward direction. Could you comment on that and removing any brain material and blood from the trunk? Thanks for replying.

Thanks Paul, I have to disagree based on witness testimony. I surveyed all of the witness testimony in Dealey Plaza. I asked a basic question about their testimony. Where was the p. limo when you heard shooting? Most of the witnesses could provide and answer, but there was a small number said they didn't know. 105 witnesses said the heard shooting while the p. limo was in front of the TSBD. Of that 105 witnesses a small number said Main Street or the Houston and Main intersection. Admittedly this is a minority view with about 20% (105) of all witnesses. It is enough in my opinion to question what went on in Dealey Plaza. Somewhere in the past records of the forum is a word doc and a pdf I posted listing these witnesses and what they said. If you find that and read what they said then you will understand that most of what we know about the event in Dealey Plaza is questionable. Those records establish reasonable doubt. This is the area 4th and 3rd floor witnesses spoke of as under the trees:

David, This is from your work. How difficult would it be to simply change the interior contents of the cab of the p. limo? Let's say with film from another film or from an earlier part of the Zapruder film (Zapruder Gap) on the motorcade route. How easy would that be to substitute and change what we see in the cab of the p. limo? Then, add a few touches such as the Hollywood black patch or the blow up of the head wound? 105+ witnesses said shooting occurred elsewhere, in front of the TSBD mostly. This would reposition the assassination from in front of the TSBD so that Lee Harvey Oswald could be blamed for a rear head shot from the TSBD where the event actually happened earlier. Change testimony or coerce witnesses and you have supportive data for the film.

Mark, This is a frame from Unger's gif showing what I believe is Camera Car #2. It could be #1, but I think the guy in the back of the Chevy is in Camera Car #2. It makes little difference since Camera Car #1 is just ahead. This montage shows you something interesting. It is roughly the same time period in the two frames, within just a few seconds. The p. limo has left the area. You can see this is the Couch frame. I believe the Couch frame shows 3 lanes so I don't think I am missing anything. If there is anything down there under the Triple Underpass then that would be the No. 12 car, the National Press Pool Car. It looks like it is clear so actually more time has passed in this Couch frame. 12 vehicles had to clear the Triple Underpass and leave Dealey Plaza when this Couch frame was filmed. It is unknown how much time has passed, but let's try to figure it out. Let's use that "perfect clock" of the "forensically pure Zapruder film" as a way to solve how much time as passed. We won't even consider missing frames which someone has calculated could extend to about 17 seconds. From when the Zapruder Gap ended at frame Z 133 to the last frame, Z 486 we can calculate how long has it been since the p. limo left Dealey Plaza. By the way, you call the end of the Zapruder Gap, the camera restart. Zapruder said he filmed continuously and did not restart his camera. Frame Z 133 to Z 486 at 18.4 frames per second: 19.2 seconds Frame Z 001 to Z 132: 7.1 seconds. This time is for the distance of approximately 100 feet which is the width of the TSBD. So far this gives a time of 26.3 seconds which is close to your estimate. However, there is more to come. 12 vehicles have to turn from off of Houston Street onto Elm Street and then clear the Elm Street. It is not enough to just track the p. limo. The Mayor's Car was stopped at the intersection and not allowed to proceed. How long did that Caravan of 12 vehicles take to clear Dealey Plaza. Well let's use that 7.1 second from Z 001 to Z 132 as a counter and add 1 second for each vehicle after the p. limo. (This is just a guess, but close I would think) 3 vehicles traveling through the first 133 feet to show up in the Zapruder film at that frame. This would be the Secret Service Car, the VP's car, and the VP's security vehicle. 3 vehicles/3 seconds. Our total is now up to 29.3 seconds. For the remainder of the 12 vehicles to to clear the Plaza and not be filmed I would say again just a guess another 1 second per car average. That would be 8 more seconds. Our total is now 37.3 seconds. Then we have to add how long the vehicles remained at the Houston and Elm intersection before proceeding out onto Elm. Base on Darnell/Weigman I believe I calculated 38 seconds. Weigman, if my memory is correct and I should really look this up in my notes, filmed the Camera Cars turning into the intersection. Time on Houston street is 38 seconds. So 37.3 Plus 38 seconds is 75. 3 seconds or 1 minute 15.3 seconds. That leaves Baker, If that truly is Baker, 14.7 seconds to get to the 2nd floor break room and confront Oswald pistol drawn. Sandy Larsen made a good case that the motorbike cop ran past the steps and did not enter the building. Conclusion: The motorcycle policeman is not Baker. Just as an aside, where are the 10 railroad men and Officer Foster on the railroad bridge in this crop and mag of the Couch frame. I guess they just wandered off somewhere.

Here's something interesting from this gif. The 1963 Chevy Impala is either Camera Car #1 or Camera Car #2. If I am remembering correctly they were not released from Houston Street to Elm Street until about 40 seconds after the assassination. Baker is supposedly making his run to the TSBD doorway. Didn't he zip right down there in about 15 seconds. If that is Baker making his run he didn't get there until about 40 or 45 seconds according to this gif. That only leaves about 45 seconds or less to confront Roy Truly and move into the building, check the elevators, and then climb two flights of steps to confront Oswald in the 2nd floor break room. Could he do that in less than 45 seconds. Or, is that motorcycle policeman some other person than Marion Baker?

Micah, Could you go back and add a brief description of the various bullets and fragments. I have never heard of a good many of these. Thanks.

Yeah! It just floats along serenely like a dream. But, remember these films are internally consistent and give us a view of reality. Ah? What is the Towner film internally consistent with? How does the folk in Altgens 6 doorway fit with Towner? Oh! But, they are consistent in their world. The internally consistent crowd ignores anything that doesn't agree with their views from the lone nut world. I've spent the last 5 years pointing out the inconsistencies of the various media in Dealey Plaza. There are many others with more talent and expertise doing the same thing. All my efforts are in vain with that crowd. Well, except for the ridicule. I can now hear J & J cranking up their computers to dispel the myths and fantasies I have been creating.

It is not a .22 round. I later blew up a frame showing the round in slow motion. You can take this as indirect proof that a .22 will not penetrate a windshield since a .223 did not do a very good job. And, also a question on the James Files story of him using a .223 weapon on the Grassy Knoll to shoot the president. If you accept the Kennedy head wound as a round striking his right temple about at the right ear and exiting the back of the head at the occipital region then Files would have had to shoot from the front through the windshield. After striking the windshield and penetrating the round in the video didn't do much else. The guy in the video shows you where glass penetrates the head rest, but claims while looking at the back of the head rest that a .22 round passed through. I like your idea of you questioning what type of round could penetrate a windshield. I believe a round traveling at approx- 2000 feet per second could do the job. Even the new high power .22 rounds only go to about 1400 feet per second. Here is an example of AK-47 rounds penetrating the windshield and some glancing off. If my memory still serves the AK-47 round traveled at about 2000 feet per second. Which is also the speed of a Carcano round. That type of round is also capable of penetrating metal. There were 3 GIs in the cab. How the man in the middle survived is beyond me.

Tony, I think this is one of the many Youtube videos about guns that are not quite accurate. I don't know why these people try to fool the public. There's too many gun nuts out here for this to fly. The author of this video is probably a crank! He shows a normal size .22 round in his hand. Some of the new .22 ammunition is quite powerful. I still can't believe that a .22 round could travel a mile and a half. But, capturing a frame from this video shows that this person's weapon may not be a .22 round rifle, but a .223 caliber or a 5.6 mm AR-15 round. Check out the magazine in this frame of the rifle he is shooting. It is much larger than a .22 round magazine. It can only be a .223 or 5.6 mm round. Technically he is correct. He is shooting a 22 caliber round. But, very misleading.

Chris, That is really interesting. I certainly agree angles can throw you off. The angle of the photographs certainly seems to be the same in these photos. They may be misleading. We have to remember where Mary took her Polaroid of Glen McBride. What's the angle from Mary's alleged location? She was down at the Grassy Knoll and according to Zapruder she is at about Z 300. If one tries to move her an inch from that spot they will more than likely be in big trouble. Many folks are outraged at the notion she took a step into the street. Here I have he same problem with the Polaroid that I have with Altgens 6. Shouldn't we see the Stemmons sign in the Polaroid? No trouble from me, but from what I have read, others. I'm not going to fight that argument since I think she was in another location according to Jean Hill in Hill Exhibit No. 5. Here is her location in the Bronson film which seems to agree with other films. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. All of the trees in Dealey Park were planted at about the same time. Live Oaks, I believe. They were fairly young trees and not tall. Certainly not big enough to cover the west wall. I don't think any were more than 20 or 30 feet tall. 30 feet may be too much. From Mary's position in 1963: Perspective and angles do make a difference. Mary's Polaroid appears to me to be have taken closer to the TSBD than her location in Zapruder. Maybe the Babushka Lady/Lady in Blue took it. I don't say this seriously, but it is a speculation if someone wants to work on it.

Simple. She appears to be wearing high heels in the crop from the Allen photo above. She mentions it in the film I cant remember the name of so that's a weakness. In the Polaroid above there is a hint of her dress and in other photos. And, lastly in the Sheriff's Office you won't be able to find a video or photo that shows Mary or Jean below the waist. It is suspicious. "Rubbish" to some, but a different perception by another. Your the photo expert so, can you show me a photo of Mary in the Sheriffs Office where you can see her from the waist down. OBTW, where did you obtain such a clear photo of Mary and her Mustang? And, did you notice the frame from the Muchmore film showing Jean Hill's bare leg? It is in the same sequence where the Lady in Blue transforms into the Babushka Lady. Speaking of the Babushka Lady there is one photo that suggests she was not on Elm Street during the assassination, but came later. You can't find a photo of Jean from the waist down either. There is one where you can see the top of her lower attire. It could be a skirt rather than slacks. I don't make this stuff up. I just look at the photos and films with a closer inspection than most. It comes from having an eye for details.

I believe Mary Moorman had a pack of 8 Polaroids of which 4 are now extant. The Glen McBride photo has clearly been altered. That's 25% of the remaining photos. I wonder how many others have been retouched. 50%? 75% or all. Take this nice clear image Robin Unger has provided us. By the way, Robin it is good that you have returned to posting. Glad your back. Is there anything wrong with this photo? Maybe. I recall seeing a video where Mary and Jean are standing in front of the Grassy Knoll shortly after the assassination. Mary says, somewhat sullenly I think, that she was not wearing white slacks. I don't remember the video's name. If any one does please make a comment. The following crop from a photo may show something different. IMO, it shows Mary with heels. If you look at Robin's Polaroid she may have a print dress that comes just below her knee. And, of course painted in slacks. Or, maybe not. We see Mary in flat shoes. This crop shows Mary in what might be heels. OBTW, Jean Hill didn't have red slacks on that day. She had a skirt on. Her leg is seen bare here. They could not catch everything and fix it. And, the Babushka Lady is an insert. That a look where Jean's shoulder is. You can see where the BB Lady doesn't quite fit the cut out prepared for her. It's either that or Jean has a huge head here. Does that make 75% of Mary's Polaroids questionable?

Thank you Richard, I never thought about camera angles. What I thought about is a 50 foot tree in Dealey Plaza. How do I know its 50+ feet? Well count the floors on the TSBD. I believe they were at least 10 feet or slightly more. Look at the Polaroid and count floors. Tony Krome explained that this next photo was from 1977 from a movie The Trial of Lee Harvey Oswald. This is 14 years later and trees are still not 50 feet on the west side of the TSBD. That includes camera angles. Well, if a graphic artist didn't paint it then maybe fairies did it. Why? Because it is magical and has no relation to reality. The tree in the Polaroid is over 50 feet tall and rises above the 5th floor. How did I know the tree is painted? Simply, because I could do a better job. Most of the artwork in various altered photos and film frames are generally not up to realistic standards. I would suspect this was due to the volume of material they had to work with and the time needed to do the job.

People really need to look at some of these old photos and film frames with a questioning mind. This montage compares the tall tree covering the west side of the TSBD shown in the Moorman Polaroid above and reality. The tall tree shown in the Glen McBride Polaroid did not exist. It was put there by a graphic artist to cover up something. Perhaps shooters looking out a window on the west side.

This is from the JFK movie? or some other? The later Z frames indicate she returns and sits basically where she was at prior to going onto the trunk. I don't know of any other films that would show that. Do you know the date of this photo. When was it taken. Look at the trees on the west side TSBD and note how tall they are in comparison to the Moorman photo of Glen McBride.

Yes. The VP's vehicle. Different roses. No jump seats. I don't think she sat in what was shown in my post as the bottom photo. I did work on this sometime back and came to a different conclusion based on how she appeared after the assassination in various photos she can be seen in where her outfit is not as badly messed as it would be if she did sit in that mess. That may suggest the "mess" was put there in the garage later. Either way something is fishy. In these photos you can only see her from the left in two of the above. Her left hip and rear should be badly stained. In the center photo, it shows he area where JFK's head supposedly laid in her lap. His head was still bleeding on the surgical table. Matter was still falling from his skull. From what I can see it appears that she wiped her hands on her skirt and legs. There has been so many lies told about the JFKA that I question everything.

Thanks, I have been informed this was the VP's vehicle. Thanks again.

There is no sound in the video. I'm working off a new computer which I haven't fully changed to my way of doing things. It seems just about every update from MS makes it harder to operate a computer the way you want to. I checked the sound. I have sound. The lack of a jump seat indicates this is the VP's vehicle. Next question? Was the VP at Parkland? Can't recall.