John Butler

The first photo would indicate, from the direction, a shot from the Triple Underpass, or a airplane, or a helicopter. Is it an argument for the "ghost train" or maybe one of the alleged railroad men on the bridge doing the shooting? Maybe Officer Foster? The direction of the red line seems to come from that area. The angle indicated by the red line seems to be to high for the railroad bridge. Maybe one of the Chris's could figure that out on the angles. I seem to recall the Nix film has problems with angles. The two photos, I would think, are a contradiction according to President Kennedy's head wounds, particularly from high powered weapons. I have not heard any reports of a bullet striking Hargis' motorbike. Can someone elaborate? All said here, this is evidence of an altered photo, Bond 4. Other than concentrating on the peculiarities of the photo, Pat Speer has provided sound evidence based no doubt on witness testimony. Just about anywhere you go in Dealey Plaza the evidence has been adjusted by government agencies for the Warren Commission. Just as an aside, I have always thought the section of the photo showing the Babushka Lady has been adjusted. Although she shows up in many photos and films, the Babushka Lady, as seen in Bond 4, is a fictional character also shown in some other films and photos. In other films and photos she is a real, but unidentified person first see at the intersection of Main and Houston and later in the Grassy Knoll area. The Babushka Lady is fictional character designed to hide the identity of the Lady in Blue seen in the Zapruder film. The real Babushka Lady did not show up on Elm Street until a minute or two later.

There was another thread that talked about this sometime back. Just counting the head wounds and other shots that people suggested, I think I came up with more than 3 or 4 shots, if my memory is right. 1. A wound to the back of the head 2. A wound to the head from the front 3. A wound to the right side of the head 4. A wound to the left side of the head 5. A back wound (an autopsy photo may show more) 6. A wound to the throat 7. A dent in the front windshield chrome 8. Collateral damage down at the Triple Underpass- James Tague 9. A .45 found in the grass 10. A bullet scarred concrete later removed PS I just remembered one more: 11. 30.06 shell found on the top of the Court Records Building.

IMO, the men pictured here do not look alike.

One of the controversial things Dan Rather said was he described Clint Hill riding on the of the p. limo. He said it 3 times. In an earlier thread there was a film of Dan Rather describing the event. The following is a later film describing the same event, but offering an explanation, perhaps, for that controversy. This is from about 6:10 to 7:50 minutes of the film. Dan Rather Discusses the Zapruder Film - EMMYTVLEGENDS.ORG - YouTube

Where did Clint Hill dismount from the p. limo? Rick McTague noted this in a comment, “- Around :35, Rather says a single Secret Service man was standing on the back bumper of the limo, not seen in the film today.” Rather said this 3 times. The Secret Service man was Clint Hill. So, in the turn and later on Elm Street, Rather has Clint Hill on the back of the p. limo. This is not seen in any film of Houston or Elm Street. Who is deceiving the public? Is it Dan Rather or the films of Houston Street and Elm Street? Clint Hill is seen on Main Street and other streets on the back of the p. limo. I did a short study of Clint Hill on the back of the p. limo earlier. From that study: We see Hill on the back of the p. limo turning onto Main St. The next photo shows that Hill is dismounting from the vehicle on Main Street. But, it is difficult to see exactly where. The 3rd and 4th photos are from the Jeffries film and show Hill on the vehicle. That’s a problem. We will get to that in a moment. The 4th and last photo attempts to give information on where Hill dismounted from the vehicle. The AMIPA film mentioned on the map does not have Hill on the back of the p. limo. So, his dismount occurred somewhere after Jeffries filmed the p. limo from his location and where the AMIPA film begins. Maybe? Notice in the photo that has Clint Hill is dismounting the vehicle (photo top right hand) there is a flag in the upper left-hand corner. This is seen better in the next photo. Notice there are 3 sets of flags. Clint Hill has dismounted from the limousine on the east side of the 3 overhead flags. These same 3 overhead flags can be seen in this next Jeffries frame. Jeffries is taking his film on the west side of the 3 overhead flags. He is near South Lamar St. So, the set of 3 flags must be between South Lamar Street and South Griffin Street. Here’s the problem. This is a Jeffries frame also showing Clint Hill on the vehicle. It is a Jeffries frame close up taken from a position on South Lamar Street. The last of 3 colored flags that should be seen are whited out. This means that Hill was still on the vehicle on the west side of the overhead flags after he had dismounted from the p. limo on the east side of the overhead flags. Huh? This is typical Kennedy nonsense in Dealey Plaza. One thing contradicts another. To sum up. Where did Clint Hill get off the p. limo on Main Street? Did he get off at all according to Dan Rather? Most films show that Clint Hill was not on the back of the p. limo from at least South Market Street to Houston Street and then Elm Street.

Would this be from the Court Records Building, the New Court House or the Old one? Wasn't Gov. Connally shot directly below his right shoulder blade and the bullet came out under his right nipple. This type of wound could not be done with Connally facing backwards as described by Dan Rather.

This is a good list. Have you any ideas on these variations of what Dan Rather said as versus the film that we know.

Greer was an experienced driver. This is from Wikipedia on his history. "After working for over a decade as a chauffeur and servant to several wealthy families in the Boston and New York areas, including the Lodge family and several years with a family in Dobbs Ferry, New York, Greer enlisted in the U.S. Navy in World War II, was assigned to the presidential yacht in May, 1944, was discharged on September 18, 1945 and joined the United States Secret Service on October 1, 1945." This business of Greer slowing the vehicle was covered up by Dan Rather in the CBS tape. Rather made the tape when his memory was still fresh. According to him that was within an hour or some short period because he was in a hurry to return to the Z film bidding. The local authorities, the FBI, and the Secret Service interviewed enough people on the 22nd to know that the slow down or stop had become a problem. The Secret Service was at the showing of the Z film to potential bidders. Rather was the only reporter there. Rather may have been told to say that the vehicle did not stop. It is my belief that the so-called extant film had been altered many times for various reasons. Since we do not have the original it is up in the air as to what happened.

Is the following correct? From wikipedia: "There has been some controversy regarding the number of shots fired during the assassination. The Warren Commission concluded that three shots were fired.[40] The vast majority of witnesses claim to have heard three, but there are some witnesses who could recall only one or two shots. A few witnesses thought there were four or more shots. Of 178 witnesses whose evidence was compiled by the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA), 132 reported hearing exactly three shots, 17 recalled hearing two, 7 said they heard two or three shots (total: 88%). A total of 6 people said they thought they heard four shots, and 9 said they were not sure how many shots they heard. Another 7 people said they thought they heard 1, 5, 6, or 8 shots." I seem to recall more witnesses saying they heard more than 3 shots. When I was surveying witness testimonies I did not concentrate on this issue since it had been done by others. My survey of the shooting was done from a different perspective. Where was the p. limo when the witness heard shots?

A tall order indeed to separate out those things real, recalled incorrectly, or said to be in true with the authority's official story of the event. Dan rather must have seen the original film or a copy of the original film. Would the Secret Service give back to Zapruder the original film once they had it in their possession? I don't think so. It would be a copy said to be the original. There simply was no time to alter the film before Rather saw it. What he said may have caused alterations in the Z film. As far as Rather's memory goes, he made the tape minutes after, perhaps no more than an hour, after seeing the film. He rushed back to the CBS offices to do so and then returned to offer a bid on the tape. This is wikipedia's version of the 3 shots from Gov. Connally. This matches what Dan Rather said. It is the initial version of the 3 shots fired in Dealey Plaza. "Governor Connally, riding in the middle jump seat of the President's limousine in front of the President, recalled hearing the first shot which he immediately recognized as a rifle shot. He said he immediately feared an assassination attempt and turned to his right to look back to see the President. He looked over his right shoulder but did not catch the President out of the corner of his eye so he said he began to turn back to look to his left when he felt a forceful impact to his back. He stated to the Warren Commission: "I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." He looked down and saw that his chest was covered with blood and thought he had been fatally shot. Then he heard the third and final shot, which sprayed blood and brain tissue over them." Of course this had to be changed with collateral damage occurring and became the single bullet/magic bullet theory. In all of this one must keep in mind the official story at the time Dan Rather made his TV tape. There could be no car stop or slow down. That would indicate a set up or conspiracy involving Will Greer and perhaps higher officials in the Secret Service. So, that indicates what Rather said probably came from and with the permission of the Secret Service. They were there when the film was shown to Rather. They had seen the film earlier and a story was worked out. I like your analysis of the slow down of the p. limo. But, who knows what the original film version portrayed as far as the speed of the vehicle is concerned. We see only the so-called extant version of the film and not the original.

Did Dan Rather butcher the Zapruder film in his CBS tape of 11/25/63? There are two questions to ask about Dan Rather’s credibility in the 11/25/63 CBS tape of Rather seeing the Zapruder film. First off, was the film that Dan Rather saw the original Zapruper film? And, the answer is yes. He saw the original or a copy of the original with no change. There was no time in which the Zapruder film could have been altered and presented to Dan Rather at the time he saw it. Rather saw the original Zapruder film on the morning of 11/23/63 at 9:00 in the morning. He said the film was show in the conference room (probably Zapruder’s conference room in the Dal-Tex) on the wall. There were other people there. This showing was for the bidding cost of the film. After the film was shown, Rather went back to the CBS offices and made the tape that was shown later on 11/25/63. He said he went through it twice from memory since he had not made any notes. Upon making the film of what he saw, he returned to bid on the Zapruder film and was told that Time Life had bought the film. He was told for the sum of $50,000. When Dan Rather saw the Zapruder film on that Friday morning of 11/23/63 the story of the Lone Gunman was mostly in place. There were still some elements that were not firmly in place, but essentially the story was there by the evening and night of 11/22/63. There was one gunman, 3 shots were fired in about 5 seconds. Lee Harvey Oswald was the shooter. The shots came from the 6th floor of the TSBD. The first shot hit Kennedy in the back. The second shot hit Gov. Connally, and the 3rd shot hit Kennedy in the head. By the 23rd of November FBI and Secret Service members were enforcing the correct story (as it was known to them at the time) through coercion of witnesses or changing witness affidavits to conform to the correct story. This is what one finds when looking at witness testimonies. This is best exemplified by Marion Baker, Bonnie Ray Williams, and many others. Rather said the saw the p. limo turn onto Elm Street several times. This was not an issue early on because no one had seen the Zapruder film except a limited few. The Zapruder Gap was not a problem early on. From what Rather said people assumed that the p. limo did make the turn onto Elm from Houston in the film. I would think the turn onto Elm was in the original film. Otherwise, why was the Zapruder Gap erased from the film. It is my personal belief that the footage in the Zapruder Gap was used to alter the film so that the shooting could take place down the street, out from under the trees, and in a location where shooting could occur 6th floor Sniper’s Nest in the TSBD. This would be the Grassy Knoll area. Dan Rather said that the Secret Service man, Clint Hill, stood on the back bumper 3 times during his discussion. This is not seen in the Zapruder film. What we have is Hill’s famous run from the SS security vehicle to the p. limo. This wasn’t a factor either until the 12 Time Life frames were shown some days later. You can see Clint Hill riding on the back bumper in some films in the early part of the motorcades travel towards Main Street and Dealey Plaza. Supposedly, he was ordered off the vehicle at one of the earlier stops the motorcade made so that Kennedy could talk to the crowd. Maybe so. Maybe not. How hard would it be to edit Clint Hill out of films and replace it with the run to the p. limo. Which scenes may have come from earlier footage of film taken before Dealey Plaza? Just speculating here. Many people have problems with his description of the head wound propelling the President forward. People take “back and to the left” as gospel. This film has been altered in many places. Why would this “back and to the left” be any different and taken as true? The answer is that this fits what people think of a head shot from the front which has the more creditable evidence behind it. This is where the second question of Rather’s credibility comes into play. The question is was there FBI or Secret Service present at the showing of the Zapruder film. The answer is yes there were Secret Service people there. The story of the Lone Gunmen was mostly in place and would be refined over time as needed. On the morning of 11-23-63, the basic elements of the story were being enforced by the Secret Service and the FBI. So, 3 shots, no vehicle stop, head moving forward, shots came from behind would be the story that Dan Rather told.

Unless I misinterpreted what Rather said, he said the Secret Service man was standing on the back bumper. He said it 3 times. He gave a description of the p. limo passengers and then said the vehicle turned onto Elm Street. He didn't say the p. limo was on Houston Street. It is assumed from what he said after the description. Rather said nothing of Hill's run from the SS vehicle to the p. limo. He states directly that the agent, Clint Hill, was already there. He doesn't mention Clint Hill's name. I agreed. The location of the p. limo when shooting occurs is iffy. He states clearly that the p. limo made the turn onto Elm several times. This film of Rather was made on 11/25/63? I believe it was the day that he saw it or a day or so after the event. He seemed still shaken up with what he saw. If there was FBI or other government officials there then he would have went with the story known at the time by those officials. By Nov. 23 the story of the lone gunmen was pretty well in place and was being enforced by the FBI and other officials according to some witness testimonies. Now, the problem is is Dan Rather believable? Given his later career of lying, that career may have begun in Dallas or earlier.

Chris, Here's a few things more to consider. Dan Rather early comments on Zapruder I believe I can add another witness to the over 100 list who saw something different on the day of the assassination, or in Dan Rather’s case someone who saw an early version of the Zapruder film that does not relate to later versions. At first Rather describes the passengers in the p. limo and a Secret Service man on the bumper. He sees this on Houston Street! Later, he describes the vehicle making a left turn off of Houston onto Elm Street. He said this 3 times! If this is true, and also seeing the vehicle on Houston Street, then he saw a film without the Zapruder Gap being present. This makes the Zapruder Gap artificial. He mentions a Secret Service agent on the bumper 3 times! He says nothing about Clint Hill’s run to the p. limo from the SS security vehicle. He says that he saw the president put his hand up to his face and slump slightly forward after the first shot. As an example, it would look something like this from a scene from a different film on Main Street. He said the first shot occurred about 35 yards from the base of the TSBD. If so that would make the shot about 205 feet from the turn onto Elm Street. This would be calculated from the SW corner of the TSBD (the TSBD is 100 ft long and 35 yards is 105 ft). If the base of the TSBD is calculated as the SE corner of the building then the shot would have occurred about 5 ft from the SW corner of the building. Somewhere between these points the shot occurred according to Rather. Rather’s description of the shooting of John Connally sounds suspicious. To make the shot seem from behind he has Connally turning to the point where his body is almost completely facing backwards. And, then the second shot becomes the third shot! Was that a slip up? Yep! Rather saw a different film then the rest of us.

Betzner Reflections It is time to look at a photo rather than a document. This Betzner photo came up in reading through and watching films from other threads currently at the Ed Forum. I found this photo strange and not believable. Why? It comes down to what is reflected on the side of the presidential limousine. The reflections there do not fit the environment in which the p. limo is located. This photo was taken by Hugh Betzner on Houston Street as the presidential limousine passed the entrance to the Court House/Court Records Building’s parking structure. This is a crop of that picture that may show the reflections better. We see two vehicles, one of which is turning. Then to the right-hand side is something unidentifiable. Below that is a section that may show (at best guess) a line of people. The law of reflections tells us what ought to be there: The law of reflection: Objects can be seen by the light they emit, or, more often, by the light they reflect. Reflected light obeys the law of reflection, that the angle of reflection equals the angle of incidence. The angle of reflection points back to the photographer. What is being reflected is what is being seen from the angle of incidence or incident ray. They are equal angles. Hugh Betzner was standing on the west side of Houston Street almost directly across from the p. limo when this photo was taken. Here is his approximate location when the photo was taken from the Elsie Dorman film. In this film frame he is not quite level with the p. limo, but he may be aiming his camera here and takes the shot when the limo is directly in front of him. Or, not. For our purposes it doesn’t matter whether he shot the photo here or a brief part of a second later. There was a montage made of the Dorman film and this crop is from the earlier scenes from that film. At 18 ft per second (based on Zapruder speeds) the p. limo is less than a second further north on Houston Street after the Betzner photo. We see vehicles turning from the left-hand unto Houston Street. We do not see vehicles turning unto Houston from the right hand side. The reflection scene on the side of the p. limo does not match the scene as seen in the Dorman film. In the reflection on the side of the p. limo we seen vehicles and something else that is not a crowd of people. What we should see there is the crowd of people standing near Betzner on the west side of Houston Street by the reflecting pool and the motorcycle policemen to the side or rear of the p. limo and not cars in the distance and some other things unidentifiable. This is what should be reflected. And, now for the part that gets everyone upset. When you consider this alteration of the p. limo in Betzner with the alterations of the p. limo in Altgens 5, and several witness statements about activities on Main Street, at the intersection of Houston and Main, and on Houston Street the notion that something happened on Houston Street is strengthened. This is an entirely different story which is not accepted by just about everyone.

I noticed this is the video. It is not a photo, but an Ida Dox drawing. Compared here. The red line crosses the Dox signature. So, the question I ask is the photo below also an Ida Dox drawing? I don't see a Dox signature. It looks more like a photo. Nice heart shaped black patch. Appears to be more than one back wound. Appears to be several. The top wound has a key hole shape feature which is repeated with the smaller wound directly below. These types of wounds are said to be from the Carcano round. The question is why alter the rear head wound with a heart shape black patch and not the back wounds of JFK. Photo or drawing?

Andrej, I don't know whether this is helpful. All of the Prayer Man frames are distorted and blurred to the extent there is nothing that is clear enough to be unarguable. That image of Prayer Man's right wrist shows a silver band rather than a watch. The image is to arguable to say either. What it says to me, since Oswald's head is cut off at the neck, and there is an alteration and a flip of the image. I won't defend that suggestion since in is my personal opinion. I do not trust the people who had these films and images in their possession by any means.

Andrej, Would you say Oswald has a Type II hair pattern based on the following; In the Dallas photo Oswald is using a comb over to hide the pattern of baldness in the hunting photo taken by brother Robert. And, just to through in a little controversy, here is a photo of Oswald without a comb over. in need of a comb over before he goes to Russia, but doesn't need one when he meets Marina. And, then redevelops a need for a comb over after about a year of marriage. Strange, isn't it? I believe that hair pattern of Prayer Man can be explained as the same as Oswald's.

Mervyn, The Harvey and Lee folks are adamant that the person who was on the ship and docked at Le Havre and later on to England was Harvey Oswald. He next goes to Finland and then into the Soviet Union. Lee Oswald was never in the Soviet Union. I am open to the idea that Lee Oswald may have gone to Russia. There is not a lot of evidence to support that position. There is the Steenbarger testimony of an Oswald on a MATS flight to Germany in mid-October of '59. If Harvey Oswald is already in Finland and on his way to the Soviet Union in mid-October then the MATS flight Oswald has to be Lee Oswald. Steve Landesberg, not the actor, said that he received post cards from Lee Oswald as he toured Europe including Moscow, Russia with a guy named Perry. There is unaccounted time for Lee Oswald in the fall of 1959 for several months. I would need to check my notes to list the exact time period. This is just my opinion. Some of the stories concerning an Oswald in Russia read as if it is Lee Oswald there. Other Stories read as if it is Harvey Oswald there. Mainly, these have to do with language ability. I know the arguments about this, but I find them, I don't want to say not credible, but, perhaps suspect would be better. Lee Oswald was the technical guy and Harvey wasn't. Harvey couldn't drive a car or do much else in a coordinated fashion. Lee was the technical guy who worked in aircraft maintenance and repair. He was the one who lived with the U2 maintenance and ground crew. It was Lee Oswald that visited all of the super secret bases such as Area 51 (U2 bases and A11 and A12 bases) and top radar bases just before the left the service in March of 1959. If Oswald did help the Soviets down the U2 then it would have to have been Lee Oswald rather than the non-technical Harvey. There is probably no one who would say yeah, that sounds right. It is just my opinion.

I don't think so. Being a proponent of the Harvey and Lee story, the person on the MATS flight to Germany would be the other double. Here's where David Josephs, in his timeline, puts Harvey Oswald during this time period: "After arriving in Helsinki on October 12th, applying for a Soviet visa on October 13th, receiving a visa on October 14th, Harvey Oswald boarded a train on October 15th and crossed into the Soviet Union at Vainikkala. After 7 years of preparation, the CIA had successfully placed their Russian-speaking agent in the Soviet Union. Oswald's next assignment was to convince the Soviets he wanted to "defect" This corresponds to the mid-October time of the Steenbarger testimony. This would make the Oswald on the plane Lee Oswald, the other half of the spy duo. This was an Oswald or a person who had knowledge of Oswald's famlly. And, who would that be in 1959?

I ran across this while researching Harvey and Lee Oswald. Oswald takes MATs Flight to Defect? MATS flight from McGuire to Germany – October 1959 w/ Lee Oswald, USMC In September 1978, a chief investigator for the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) had an assistant contact Louise A Steenbarger – of Peru, Indiana, to see what information she wanted to relay in regards to their investigation of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. The assistant made the phone call and talked to Louise Steenbarger and wrote this report: KENNEDY OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT DATE 9-26-78 TIME I. Identifying Information: Name Louise Steenbarger Telphone 317-172-1771Address 128 East Sixth Street, Peru, Indiana Type of Contact – x Telephone ___ Person II. Summary of Contact: Pursuant to Cliff Fenton’s request, I called Mrs. Steenbarger because she contacted the Committee to give information. Mrs. Steenbarger related the following: In Mid-October 1959 her husband, Maurice Eugene Steenbarger, was stationed with the Air Force in Phalsbourg France. He husband was a civilian auditor with the Auditor General. At that time she left her home in Marion, Indiana with her eight year old son, David (dob 11/29/51) to join her husband in France. Her travel was arranged through the military and she was issued travel orders. She left from Bunker Hill Base (now called Garisson) in Indiana and flew to MacGuire Air Force Base (Fort Dix) in New Jersey. MacGuire was the point of departure for military transport flights were called MATS. (Fort Dix was the replacement station for Europe and later Viet Nam.) On the airplane her son sat in the window seat and she sat in the middle. The man sitting in the aisle seat said his name was Lee Oswald; she doesn’t remember him using a middle name. He seemed tense and didn’t say much; he gripped the arms of the seat so tightly that his knuckles were white. She thought he was merely afraid of flying. He was quite taciturn and actually seemed hostile when she tried to talk to him. The young man relaxed after they had a meal. He seemed to her like he had a lot of pent-up emotion. He said he had served in Japan and the Philippines. He was wearing a Marine Corps uniform. He said he had fallen in love with a Japanese girl and had been imprisoned in either Japan or the Philippines because he wanted to marry her. He said he was being shipped to Germany by the military; the departure had been so hastily arranged that he had not even been able to see his mother. (This has to some sort of cover story Lee Oswald left the Marines in March, 1959.) Mrs. Steenbarger described the man as having light to sand hair, light eyes, with sharpshooter medals on his uniform, a name plate saying “Lee Oswald” and a slight Southern accent. (Harvey did not have a southern accent) He said his father was named Robert E. Lee Oswald. He talked about putting down the American system. He said he was being shipped to Germany because they needed him right away and that he had a skill he could use there, but she doesn’t recall if he specified what skill. The plane landed in Preswick in Scotland. Mrs. Steenbarger and her son deplaned to use the restroom. Oswald said he was ill. He stood at a distance and seemed to be watching her coldly and suspiciously. After that, he didn’t speak to her any more. (Paranoid? Looking for spies and agents?) When they got back on the plane the man named Oswald sat across the isle from her and her son and a couple of rows up. Another man in nice civilian clothing sat next to her. He let a cigarette dangle on the armrest but appeared distracted and did not smoke it. There may have been other civilians on the plane, but she is not sure. The man named Oswald told her that he was still under surveillance from his trouble with the military police. The man sitting next to her after Oswald moved behaved oddly that she wondered if he was in fact the person who was watching Oswald. Their plane landed at either Rhine/Maine or Frankfurt. That was the last time she saw the man named Oswald. She did not notice how he left the airfield. Mrs. Steenbarger offered that her travel arrangements and possibly a manifest of that flight could be gotten from the Air Force. She provided the following vital statistics on her and her husband: Lola Louise Steenbarger Dob 3/19/23 SS# Maurice Eugene Steenbarger Dob 10/5/16 S$# Civil Service Retirement #CSA 1718774 And, Another thing is that I couldn't decided whether photos belonging to the Paines or Oswald show the airport and planes at Rejavik, Iceland. The airport at that time was a military base which was part of our northern radar defenses against Soviet missile attack.

LBJ was the most powerful man in Congress. He was the Senate Majority Leader. As such, nothing went through the Congress (this includes agreements with the House) without his approval. He was a neighbor and close friend of J Edgar Hoover. If my memory is correct he helped the Secret Service Director, James Rowley, obtain his job. He kept CIA Director, John McCone in place after the assassination. I don't have any info on the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But, I speculate that Johnson had some sort of relationship with all of the heads of the various Executive Branch agencies as Senate Majority Leader and later as Vice-President. So, who killed Kennedy? Elements of the Executive Branch to include the FBI, Secret Service, CiA, and the Joint Chiefs of Staff. These were the upper level people that Johnson had contact with and some degree of control. I speculate they convinced people that Kennedy was a traitor, or a sellout to the Russian communists. This is what was stated in the Dallas handout before the assassination. And, furthermore they could do nothing about his re-election in 1964. Whether that was true or not, it really didn't matter. I believe that is their excuse for convincing others to go along with the assassination at both upper and lower levels.

Chris, Here is an interesting notion. Could the guy standing on the truck bed or vehicle see almost everything in Dealey Plaza, Elm Street, Triple Underpass, and Stemmons Freeway. Including McIntyre, the photog who took MC 3, and the guys shown in MC 3, could they be spotters/controllers/filmers. Could the assassination crew be like the Nazis and want a complete record? It looks like from that elevated position that might be possible, particularly with binoculars or telephoto lens. They had cameras Across the street Al Volkland is alleged to have taken this photo. Info from Pictures Of The Pain.

Chris, I finally got google earth to show Continental Avenue. As soon as I am back wth my computer rather than this Ipad I will post the correct view. Thanks for that. I am not to concerned with strict accuracy. I will use the north face of the TSBD for the origin.

Chris, Thanks again. I'll do that but will not be able to reply for the next couple of days. Graphics look good. Are you suggesting that the 3 cars in the last left hand graphic are the cars seen by Bell and Bond? I thought of Nix and Muchmore, but forgot to check them out. "The image in your last post that shows the line of sight back to the Stemmons & continental Ave lands a couple blocks short of Continental ave. Continental is the next major street North." I thought that might be the case but was looking for a spot the photographer could be at on the other side of the Stemmons to make that shot work. It seems to cut midway through that barren area in the photo. If you put your position for the photographer here then please repost. Thanks.

Timing of the train photos and frames There are 8 photos and film frames that show trains that are of interest in determining information about trains around the Dealey Plaza area. These are trains that are on the railroad lines that run across the Triple Underpass into the railroad yards and the Stemmons Overpass railroad line. The first to consider is the Wilma Bond photo 8. Wilma Bond was first at the Main and Houston intersection to watch the motorcade. After the p. limo passed through, she walked over into the grassy area between Main and Elm approximately in front of the Grassy Knoll. There she took this interesting photo. There is a train just behind the Pergola structure. It appears to be very close to the railroad yards near the parking lot and consists of a short passenger car or engine with another passenger car attached. This scene is probably 1 to 2 minutes after the assassination. The black ford in the photo is the 22nd car of the motorcade. An interesting aside is that there appears to be the Lady in Blue (Babushka Woman) that is shown in the Zapruder film. (Tammi True?) The Bell film also shows a train behind the Pergola structure. This also appears to be passenger cars like the Bond film. This scene is after Bell watches the p. limo move to and pass under the Triple Underpass. At that point he leaves his elevated perch and moves to Main Street and the grassy area between Main and Elm. This frame scene is probably 1 to 2 minutes after the assassination. I believe Bond and Bell are showing the same train segments. This train appears to be close to the Pergola perhaps just off the railroad parking lot. Its hard to think that this train and the Bond train are out on the Stemmons line or further north on a main line pass Lee Bower’s tower. Another photo, the Allen photo, shows a train near the parking lot by size, but is actually about 150 feet away on the Stemmons Overpass line. The train should appear smaller and in the distance. The signal towers which this train runs through is on the Stemmons line. This train cannot be matched to the Bond and Bell trains. There is not enough information to do that. Here we see a taller passenger car (average 16 ft.) and freight cars (average 14 feet). The freight cars are smaller then the passenger cars and we don’t see this in Bond and Bell. The time of this could be anywhere from 3 minutes to an hour after the assassination. Policemen went to the Grassy Knoll and parking lot directly after the assassination. But, the photographers came later. At this writing, an unknown photographer took a photo of a train with a man or policeman on top of it. This train also appears if it is just off the parking lot and may be. It consists of passenger cars. From this appearance it might match the Bond and Bell photos. But, I don’t think so. The time of this photo is similar to the Allen photo’s 3 minutes to a hour. The crowd in the parking lot has thinned out somewhat and might be later. Next is the Hughes film frame that shows a train near the parking lot. This train has 3 passenger cars in it. It can not be matched to the others due to limited information. It appears to be on a main track line leading into the railroad lines. The time here is perhaps 2 to 5 minutes after the assassination. Hughes was first in the Main and Houston intersection filming the motorcade. After the p. limo passed he went to Main Street and filmed down toward the Triple Underpass. From there he turned his camera off and walked over into the parking lot and began filming again. All of the photos and frames suggest this was the same train at the edge of the parking lot. That judgement is problematic. There are 3 photos left to cover. These are the McIntyre photos. At least two are McIntyre and the third is more than likely someone else’s photo. The first McIntyre photo, MC 1, is taken by McIntyre standing near the Stemmons Street exit. This photo was taken less than 30 seconds after the assassination. Given a speed varying from 50 to 70 mph for the p. limo this is probably about 15 seconds after the shooting. If you blow this up you will see passenger cars behind the signal towers on the Stemmons spur line. More than likely these are the passenger cars seen in Bell and Bond. Next is McIntyre 2, MC 2. This is directly after MC 1 and in the distance one can clearly see passenger cars that are behind the signal towers on the Stemmons line and then must be on a main track near the parking lot. These are the passenger cars seen in Bell and Bond. The timing of this photo is a second or two after MC 1. McIntyre 3, MC 3, is not a McIntyre photo. Richard Trask of Pictures of the Pain fame says it is. I dispute this because I can not see how he left this location and got to the Stemmons/Continental Avenue area in time to take MC 3. The timing of this photo is based on measuring the distance from the Grassy Knoll via Elm and the Stemmons exit ramp to here at Continental Avenue on the Stemmons Freewy. This distance is roughly 2016 feet. Applying math to figure out how long it would it take to drive this distance at an average speed of 70 mph would be 5280 X 70 = 369,000 feet. 369,000 feet divided by 60 minutes = 6160 feet per minute. This divided into the original 2016 feet gives one 33 seconds to reach this area. In the background we see two train segments. It is impossible to say more than freight cars are visible in the right hand (picture left) train. This can’t be matched to anything else. It is not on the Stemmons line but on a main track line near the railroad yards. You can see distance between the Stemmons line and the main track line. This could be the non-existent train that most people think was not in Dealey Plaza. It could be the train that J. C. White spoke of on the Bridge. If you apply a speed of perhaps 20 or 25 mph for this train leaving the Triple Underpass it could have reached this location to be in sync with the p. limo as seen. It might be the Ghost Train. The other two train cars are on the Stemmons and may or may not relate to the other train photos.