John Butler

Chris, Thanks for making a comment on my work. i was hoping someone would. During the making that presentation, I continually had a nagging thought something was not quite right. This nagging thought had to do with perspective, distance, speed, and time. Basically, was there enough time to get a long, slow freight off the Triple Underpass and into the railroad yards? More on this later. When I read your comment I did not at first grasp what you were saying. It was a case of Huh? What? Why that? So, I had to look at MC 2 and what I had been calling MC3 to see if I could see something of what your were saying. Looking at this montage I got to where you were at by a different means. First off I noticed there were little white posts in the background of MC 2 and not in MC 3. So, these were different areas. I at first thought MC 3 was just down the Stemmons exit from where MC 2. But, where were the signal towers? What I thought wasn't so and a big mistake. How did I know it was a mistake. Its the perspective viewing the TSBD. In MC 2 you can see the south and west side of the building and in MC 3 you can see the north and west side of the building. This says the p. limo must be out on the Stemmons Freeway, but how far away. This Google Earth shot gives and indication. The green area in MC 3 is visible, but covered with structures today and was not in 1963. The red line shooting through the middle of that area matches the photo. The p. limo would be at the end of the line approximately on the Stemmons Freeway (Continental Ave). I went back to Richard Trask's book, Pictures of Pain, and found this: Pictures Of The Pain quote on MC 3 "Later still McIntire, returning to his car up on Stemmons Freeway near the Continental Avenue exit ramp, snapped off his third photo. The police had set up a temporary road block. Taking the picture in a northeasterly direction with the Texas School Book Depository warehouse and the Sunshine Biscuit Company on Munger Street in the background beyond the railroad abutment, the photo shows several Dallas police officers and motorcycle cops near parked cycle #333. Civilian dressed men, including two holding 16mm turret cameras and one also having an audio tape recorder, are also on hand. McIntire was annoyed that the motorcade had driven by so fast. Neither he nor Tenny had heard the shots, and it was not until they were driving on to their office that they learned of the shooting." This quote from Trask indicates that MC 3 is not a McIntyre photo. He couldn't possibly walked there ahead of the p. limo to get to his car on the Stemmons. Even if he had a ride he would not have been able to pass the remants of the motorcade containing the p. limo. The 5 motorcycle policemen would not have allowed another vehicle to approach or pass the p. limo. Even if someone in the motorcade picked him up the situation is still impossible. The photo could have been made by Al Volkland who was there waiting for the p. limo to pass. Trask says he was not to far from McIntyre's position. That doesn't make sense. In my opinion MC 3 is not a McIntyre photo. I'll have more comments later as I study your measurements to see if I can duplicate those with Google Earth. After today I'll be silent for the next couple of days due to being out of town. Once again thanks for your concern. I always know to pay attention even if I don't exactly understand what you are saying. It is time to look closer.

Adam, Thanks for your comment. That is Officer J. C. White. From where he was standing he would not be able to see anything concerning the assassination, hear perhaps. It doesn't matter whether there was a train on the tracks or not. The Triple Underpass is 120 feet wide. From that position he would not be able to see anything in Dealey Plaza. As far as hearing goes if there was not a train blocking hearing would he have heard firecracker sounds or gunshots. Maybe or maybe not. From ground level on either side of the Triple Underpass one may not be able to see a train in the center of the tracks. This train in all likelihood could only be seen from an elevated position such as Bell had on Houston Street, but not on Main or the grassy area below the reflecting pool. Patsy Paschall had had an elevated location, but her film was intentionally debased to the point of being not very useful. So, I don't see why he would say there was a long, slow freight train blocking his sight and hearing unless that was so. he wouldn't have seen anything from there anyway. The six Dallas policemen talked about trains in the area before and after the assassination. None but White said there was a train on the TU. They weren't asked and they didn't tell.

Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza- The Elusive, Non-existent Train Hidden in Plain Sight In order to see if there was any trains or train cars on the Triple Underpass, the Stemmons Railroad Overpass line, or in the rail yards one needs to re-examine the photos concerning trains that afternoon. Once again there are a lot of photos to look at and analyze. It is wordy if you believe a picture is worth 10,000 words. First off, there is no visual evidence for any train or cars on the Triple Underpass. None. There may be reasons for that and will be discussed later. There is evidence for train cars on the Stemmons Overpass spur line. To see these train cars, we need to review the McIntyre photos and others concerning trains. There are 3 McIntyre photos that I have put into order as 1, 2, and 3 depending on where they were in relation to the small Stemmons Exit sign seen in those photos. The first photo one will see is McIntyre 1 on the internet which are usually sharp and clear. The Unger photo is a good representative of this. This photo is misleading in the sense it does not show all of the information contained in the photo. A better example is from the book, Pictures of Pain. The Stemmons Overpass spur line separates from the 7 main tracks just south of the towers perhaps 40 to 50 feet from the main tracks. The signal towers for the railyards were located on the Stemmons Overpass Railroad Line. There are definitely there and not in the railroad yards. The Stemmons Overpass line leaves about 40 to 50 feet south of the 7 main tracks going over the Triple Underpass. We see the towers again in McIntyre 2. Definitely on the Stemmons Overpass. Here if you look closely or blow up this photo you will see a passenger train behind the signal towers. Ghost Train? The blowup: The signal towers have been cut out in the earlier photo. These towers are clearly on the Stemmons Overpass line. We see the Triple Underpass line also. The towers split from the other 7 lines on the TU tracks just before the signal towers are reached forming a Y to the west. McIntyre 2 reinforces this by showing the Dealey Plaza area in relation to the Stemmons signal towers. In this photo the Secret Service security vehicle is near the small Stemmons Exit sign. If one looks closely there appears to be a train in the railroad yards. Blowing up the image one can see the passenger train is behind the signal towers and therefore has to be in the railroad yards. McIntyre 3 shows what may very well be the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza or parts of it. There are another two passenger cars on the Stemmons Overpass spur line. This is within a minute or two of the assassination. Notice that the first train on the right (picture left) has distance between it and the Stemmons line. It must be in the railroad yards. The other two passenger cars are the ones we see through the Pergola structure in Bond, Bell, and others. This is the mistake that Harold Weisberg and others made when saying these cars are on the Pergola spur line. You can see they are on the Stemmons with the main tracks in the background. And, I believe these are also the cars that one sees in Allen with boxcars added. This indicates within minutes to an hour of the assassination the elusive Ghost Train was reassembled into other trains. The passenger cars and freight cars shown here are on the Stemmons spur line. You can see they are passing through the signal towers. This is after the McIntyre photos and indicates more work by the railyards moving trains and cars. This Allen photo is more than likely an alteration showing the train cars larger than they should be. The distance from the signal towers to the edge of the parking lot for the yards is 152 as measured by Google Earth Pro. Their appearance should be smaller. This is a later, but contemporary photo showing a train on the tracks of the TU. Notice the size of the cars in relation to the train. This is very similar or smaller than the vehicles of what is seen in Allen indicating that Allen is altered. One further photo needs to be examined. At this point the photographer of the photo is unknown. It shows a policeman standing on a train car in the distance. This photo also appears to show a train in the railroad yards perhaps on the Pergola spur line as Harold Weisberg suggested. It has a someone, a policemen perhaps, on top of a car. Once again, the size of the cars call into question where this partial train is. This is the partial train of a short passenger car and long passenger one sees in McIntyre 3. This train is on the Stemmons Overpass line, but appears to be near the railroad yards. Hughes may show the same train or another. If another, there was considerable movement of passenger cars on the Stemmons spur line. Harold Weisberg was wrong when he said this train was on the Pergola spur line. Conclusion: After almost 57 years we have a better understanding of trains in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy. There is a good possibility that the long, slow train that Officer J. C. White stated passed through at the time of the assassination was disassembled and reassembled as two freight trains about to leave Dallas and remnant car cars were left on the Stemmons spur line. Is McIntyre 3 showing what I call the Ghost Train of Dealey Plaza? I think it could very well be the non-existent train. Why was this train not seen in the media of Dealey Plaza during the assassination? I can only say alteration. There may be one other reason. The Triple Underpass is 27 feet high at the height of the bridge railing. It is 120 feet across above the 3 streets. There are 7 tracks on the bridge. One may not be able to see the center of the bridge on a middle track from Elm Street from the intersection with Houston to down to the Stemmons Overpass exit. Photographers such as Bell and Paschall were on elevated positions and should have seen and photographed the train. Here are two photo frames of Paschall that shows alterations. Here we see the entire bridge and railroad lines blacked out. And, You can see an area blacked out in the middle of the bridge. It could be a train there. The true sign of alteration is the back of the railroad bridge railing. It elevates above the front of the bridges railing. The is perspective wrong. Elm Street slopes downward at a 3. 5 percent slope from the intersection to the Stemmons exit. The bridge would be leveled to account for that. The center of the bridge is gradually raised to a slight degree to shed water from rains. Distance perspective should show the back railing sloping downwards not upward. This is the train broken into two other trains that the 3 tramps came off of during the search of the railroad yards. If this train was the one described by J. C. White then it could have provided a platform to make a shot to Elm Street at Z frame 160 and blow through the windshield and strike President Kennedy in the throat.

Evidence for a train/no train in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination: 1. There is no visual evidence for a train on the Triple Underpass at the time of the assassination. There is visual evidence that there was a train or parts of a train on the Stemmons Railroad Overpass at the time of the assassination or directly within minutes afterwards. There is evidence for a train in the railroad yards directly after the assassination. 2. There is visual evidence, the Allen photo, that appears to show there were passenger cars at the west end of the TSBD/railroad parking lot. They appear to be hooked to boxcars. The train cars are located under the signal towers on the Stemmons Overpass line and therefore they could not be located near the parking lot in the manner shown by Allen. The signal towers were on the Stemmons spur line about 150 feet from the parking lot. There was only one railroad track there and it was for the Texas and Pacific railroad company. 3. Allen and Bond photos show a train behind the Pergola of the Grassy Knoll in railroad yards. The Phil Willis slide is disputed as an alteration removing the train from behind the Pergola. In my judgement there was no train or cars on the Pergola spur line. Harold Weisberg made a mistake. It very like that train or train cars was on the Stemmons Overpass line or simply an alteration. 4. There were 5 Dallas Police Officers assigned to duty on the Triple Underpass and the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass. A sixth, a police Sargent, was assigned to search the railroad yards after the assassination. These men are primarily the source for information about trains in the area of the Stemmons Freeway Overpass, the Triple Underpass, and the railroad yards. 5. Officer James Lomax was with Earle Brown on the north end of the Stemmons Overpass. 6. Officer Joe Murphy was located on the Stemmons Overpass above Elm Street and later above Main/Commerce. 7. Officers J. W. Foster and J. C. White were on the Triple Underpass. Foster was located near Elm Street on the east side and White was located above Main St. on the west side. 8. Sgt. D. V. Harkness later supervised the search of two freight trains about to leave Dallas in the railroad yards and removed suspicious people, hoboes and tramps, from a train and took them in for questioning. Conclusion: There were trains in the area of the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass, The Triple Underpass, and the Railroad Yards during and after the assassination. There were two trains which were not photographed or filmed by photographers during and after the assassination. These trains were prepared to leave Dallas and were stopped and searched by Sgt. D. V. Harkness. Suspicious people were removed by the Dallas Police, hoboes and tramps, and taken into custody for questioning. Officer James Lomax is the easiest of these officers to discuss. Essentially, he was not interviewed by the Dallas Police, the FBI, the Warren Commission, or any other authority in 1963 or 1964. He did offer testimony to the HSCA. This is what I was able to find after much searching: “Staff interview of James A. Lomax, Nov. 17, 1979, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Doc. No. 014352) The committee interviewed James Lomax in Dallas on October 27, 1978. Lomax had never been interviewed by any law enforcement officers of the Warren commission about events in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. During his interview, Lomax gave no information about the assignment to list the license numbers of cars in the area of the depository after the assassination. Lomax had no other information to report about persons fleeing from the depository or Dealey Plaza. When asked by committee investigators about Earle Brown's report of a man leaving the depository, lomax stated that Brown never mentioned it to him and that he did not observe the reported incident.(311) There is no mention of trains. Conclusion: Officer Lomax offers no useful information about the events in Dealey Plaza.” Officer Earle Brown talked about trains in his interview by the WC investigators in Testimony of Earle V. Brown, Apr. 7, 1964, 5 Warren Report Hearings, p. 231: In this report Brown said he was assigned to the railroad overpass above the Stemmons Freeway. He was there with patrolman James Lomax. They were located on the north side of the overpass. Neither Lomax or Brown mention a train on the overpass. The McIntyre photo 2 shows no train on the overpass above Stemmons. It is argued that the boxcars seen in the Allen photo are out on the Stemmons Overpass. Brown said he was about 100 yards from the TU. That is 300 feet and the boxcars if out on the Stemmons Overpass would appear much smaller in perspective in the Allen photo. Brown said he was about 100 yards from the TU and that would make an extra 162 yards to the Elm and Houston intersection or the TSBD. This figure would be roughly 260 yards to view Elm and Houston and the events of that day. Brown said this about viewing trains from atop the Stemmons Overpass: “Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view. Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.” That’s not surprising since he was viewing the railroad yards for most of the time before the assassination. He also said this: “Mr. BALL. Did you have the corner of Houston and Elm Street in sight from where you were located? Mr. BROWN. Actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we probably could see would be cars. Mr. BALL. Could you see cars going down after they made the turn and going down toward the underpass south? Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. BALL. You could see those? Mr. BROWN. Yes.” And, “Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that? Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston? Mr. BALL. Yes. Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped. Mr. BALL. Where? Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.” Folks may not have caught what this means. He was able to view the Elm intersection. That would mean there was not a train on the TU. Or, that if there was one that train had not moved north enough to block his view. According to Brown the president was attacked in the Elm and Houston intersection after they made the turn. He at first says that the p. limo stopped but later says just slowed down. There were 3 shots. And, “Mr. BALL. Did you see any people over In the railroad yards? Mr. BROWN. Not that I recall; now they were moving trains in and out. Mr. BALL. But you did not see people standing? Mr. BROWN. No, sir; sure didn't. Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards? Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. BALL. What? Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view. Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir.” And, “Mr. BALL. Was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the point where Elm goes underneath? Mr. BROWN. Uh-uh, I couldn't recall; no one except police officers. Mr. BALL. More than one? Mr. BROWN. Yes.” I take this to mean that Brown did not see Officer Foster with 10 or 11 railroad workers on the Triple Underpass above Elm Street. Conclusions: Officer Brown did not mention a train on the Stemmons Overpass during the time of the assassination. He did mention viewing trains moving in the railroad yards, but did not specify a time. This observation could have been from watching the yards for several hours. With his statement along with the McIntyre photo 2, one could say with some certainty there was not a train on the Stemmons Overpass west of the Triple Underpass. Dallas Officer Earle Brown did not see Officer Foster with 10 or 11 railroad workers on the Triple Underpass above Elm Street. Officer Joe E. Murphy discussed trains in his interview by the WC investigators at 9:50 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Officer Murphy said he was assigned to: “Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, did they assign you to some post? Mr. MURPHY. Yes, I was assigned to the overpass - the Stemmons Freeway overpass northbound at Elm Street - over Elm. Mr. BALL. What instructions did you have? Mr. MURPHY. It was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived.” And, “Mr. BALL. Now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as you turned west on Elm from Houston, what Is the first overpass that you encounter? Mr. MURPHY. There is a railroad overpass - all of the trains entering and leaving the Union Station cross over that overpass. Mr. BALL. Were there any officers on that overpass? Mr. MURPHY. There were two.” And, “Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass? Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10 - from what -I could see - about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad employees. Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately? Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street. Mr. BALL. They were all together?” Officer Murphy spoke of other things, but these are basically his observations on the Stemmons Overpass, the Triple Underpass, and trains. Conclusions: Officer Murphy confirmed there were two officers on the railroad bridge. He didn’t know their names. These undoubtedly were Officers Foster and White. He indicated that all trains had to cross the railroad bridge entering and leaving from the railroad yards. They had to cross the railroad bridge. Officer Murphy has a credibility problem with the 8 to 10 workers. They were not there at all. This indicates his testimony was coached. The Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Officer J. W. Foster was assigned to the Triple Underpass with Officer J. C. White. Foster was assigned to the east side of the TU and White was assigned to the west. Foster said he was above Elm Street on the railroad bridge. Sgt. D. V. Harkness made the assignment of both officers. Officer Foster’s testimony is a key element in understanding what occurred on the Triple Underpass. On reading through Officer Foster’s testimony one can say there are creditability problems with it. This may be called cherry picking evidence, but it is simply shortening the testimony to the important points. “Mr. BALL - Did you have a special assignment on November 22? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - 1963. And what was that? Mr. FOSTER - That was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it. Mr. BALL - That was the overpass, the railroad overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Do you - the overpass runs in a north-south direction? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - And you call it the triple overpass, why? Mr. FOSTER - Three streets coming through there. Mr. BALL - What are they? Mr. FOSTER - Commerce, Main, and Elm. Mr. BALL - I have a map that I will - just a moment. I will get it. Mr. FOSTER - All right. (off the record) At this point Ball goes off to secure a map to plot where Foster was on the Triple Underpass. He wants to make sure there is exact record of where Foster was. And, “Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight? Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street. Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass. Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.” Foster made have said something else in the highlighted area and this was later changed by WC personnel. Why this change? The answer is complicated and involves the Union Terminal railroad workers who were said to be on the railroad bridge with Foster above Elm Street. Altgens 7 shows very clearly that Foster and 10 or 11 railroad workers are there above Elm Street. This is also shown in the Bell film after just a few frames before there is no one there. Less than seconds worth of frames. But, this is not true. Altgens 7 is a fraud. The following 8 photos and films show no one was on the railroad bridge: 1. The Jim Towner Photo 2. The Weigman Film 3. The Bell Film- At first a Bell frame shows no one on the bridge, a few frames later shows 4 or perhaps 5 people there, and then a few frames later the same personnel as the Altgens 7 Photo. 4. The Martin Film 5. A Wilma Bond Photo 6. The Couch Film 7. The Paschall Film 8. The Hughes Film If you have good eyes you can see in the Hughes film, the Patsy Paschall film, and a Wilma Bond photo where Officer Foster was standing. He was standing farther north of the TU where the grassy slope comes up to meet the bridge. These 10 or 11 Union Terminal employees were allegedly on the bridge were with him there. RR Witnesses allegedly on Viaduct. 1 C F Bishop Bishop, Curtis Freeman 3/19/64 FBI report 2 E W Cowsert Cowsert, Ewell William 3/19/64 FBI report 3 G A Davis Davis, George A. 3/19/64 FBI report 4 R C Dodd Dodd, Richard Calvin 3/18/64 FBI report 5 S M Holland Holland S.M. * 11/22/63 Affidavit 6 C E Johnson Johnson, Clemon Earl 3/18/64 FBI report 7 A L Miller Miller, Austin L. * 1/22/63 Affidavit 8 T J Murphy Murphy, Thomas J. 3/20/64 FBI report 9 N H Potter Potter, Nolan H. 3/19/64 FBI report 10 F E Reilly Reilly, Frank E. 12/18/63 FBI report 11 J L Simmons Simmons, James L. ** 3/19/64 FBI report 12 R G Skelton Skelton, Royce G. * 11/22/63 Affidavit Why point this out again? It is because Ball stresses this location on several occasions during Foster’s testimony. Again: “Mr. BALL - Now where were you standing? Mr. FOSTER - Standing along the east curb of - east side of the overpass over Elm Street there, above the south curb. Mr. BALL - Over, above the south curb of Elm? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Will you put a mark on there? Mark an "X" where you were standing and write your initials right next to that "X". J. - What are the initials? Mr. FOSTER - J.W. Mr. BALL - J.W.F. That marks where you were standing. Mr. FOSTER - Approximately; yes, sir.” He locates the railroad workers with Foster: “Mr. FOSTER - People that were working for the railroad there. Mr. BALL - Were there many people? Mr. FOSTER - About 10 or 11. Mr. BALL - Where were they standing? Mr. FOSTER - They were standing along the east banister. Mr. BALL - The east banister? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; in front of me. Mr. BALL - In front of you. Will you mark there and show the general area where they were standing? Mr. FOSTER - They were standing along this area here [indicating]. Mr. BALL - You have marked a series of X's to show where about 10 people were standing? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Were you looking toward them? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.” Ball wanted to make sure that Foster and the railroad men were properly placed so that this question could be asked. The Union Terminal employees said that they saw smoke coming up from the Grassy Knoll and they heard a shot from that direction. Most of these workers were filmed and interviewed by Mark Lane. “Mr. BALL - Was any shot fired from the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone with a weapon there? Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. Mr. BALL - Or did you here any sound that appeared to come from the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.” Just as the interview was ending Ball had to ask one more time about the assignment and the railroad workers. This testimony from Foster was to ensure that the railroad workers were on the bridge as the infamous Altgens 7 photo showed. “Mr. BALL - Than you. One moment please. Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster? Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant Harkness. Mr. BALL - You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - How did you determine they were railroad employees? Mr. FOSTER - By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees. Mr. BALL – Okay” Ball stressed the location of Foster and the railroad workers 4 times. Their location was and important point of testimony. Furthermore, this point was made in the Officer Joe E. Murphy testimony by Joseph Ball. This is a total of 5 times. This was a very important testimonial point indicating there was not any shooting activity from the railroad bridge. “Mr. BALL. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass? Mr. MURPHY. There were about 8 or 10 - from what -I could see - about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to he railroad employees. Mr. BALL. Can you mark in their positions, approximately? Mr. MURPHY. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street. Mr. BALL. They were all together? Mr. MURPHY. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as requested by Counsel Ball)” A very important point. Indeed. Conclusions: A great deal of effort was put into showing that nothing happened on the Triple Underpass when President Kennedy’s limousine turned off of Houston Street and began the journey down Elm Street towards the Triple Underpass. Jesse Curry, when he heard shots, radioed in to get someone up on the Triple Underpass and see what was happening there. This effort positively showed there were no snipers there or any shooting from the railroad bridge. If my recollection is correct none of the railroad workers mentioned a train in Dealey Plaza on the TU at the time of the assassination. This effort involved the forging of Ike Altgens photo number 7 into an instrument that showed Officer Foster and the railroad workers on the Triple Underpass over Elm Street. This is the perfect location for viewing Elm Street and what happened there. They would have seen trains, people, and anything going on there at the TU. It also involved the coaching of two police witnesses, Foster and Murphy. Mark Lane unwittingly added further to the deception by interviewing the Union Terminal employees and gladly accepting their testimony that a shot from the Grassy Knoll was seen as a puff of smoke and heard. Mark Lane was simply overjoyed that he had about 10 witnesses who saw or heard shooting from the Grassy Knoll and therefore there was a second shooter in Dealey Plaza. Lane had a conspiracy to murder a President. All of this indicates the Union Terminal Co. may have been involved. The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dallas Police Sgt. D. V. Harkness provides further testimony concerning trains in Dealey Plaza. Sgt. Harkness was involved in many things in Dealey Plaza that afternoon. It is a long testimony and will be shortened to just the information concerning trains. “Were you on duty November 22, 1963? Mr. Harkness. Yes, sir. Mr. Belin. Doing what? Mr. HARKNESS. Supervising the traffic officers from Main and Field along the parade route to Elm and Houston. Mr. Belin. Where were you around 12:30 p.m.? Mr. Harkness. At Main and Houston. Mr. Belin. On the east or west side of Houston? Mr. Harkness. West side of Houston. (Can be seen in Robert Hughes film)” And, “Mr. HARKNESS. I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard. Mr. Belin. Then what did you do? Mr. Harkness. Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station. Mr. Belin. You mean some transients? Mr. Harkness. Tramps and hoboes. Mr. Belin. That were on the freight car? Mr. Harkness. Yes, sir. Mr. Belin. Then what did you do? Mr. Harkness. That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there. We had several officers working in that area. Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard Mr. Harkness. Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in. Mr. Belin. Were these what you call hoboes or tramps? Mr. Harkness. Yes, sir. Mr. Belin. Were all those questioned? Mr. Harkness. Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned. Mr. Belin. Any guns of any kind found? Mr. HARKNESS'. Not to my knowledge. Conclusions: There were two freight trains in the railroad yards about to leave Dallas for other destinations. These trains were searched by Sgt. Harkness and other Dallas police officers. Suspicious people, hoboes and tramps, were taken from a boxcar of a freight train and taken in for questioning. Most likely these were the 3 tramps filmed in Dealey Plaza. There may have been others. The most important part of this testimony is that the two freight trains discussed by Sgt. Harkness were never photographed by any of the Dealey Plaza photographers. These two trains are important because they may have been the long, slow freight train mentioned by Officer J. C. White on the Triple Underpass during the time of the assassination. This long, slow freight train may have been disassembled and later assembled into the two trains leaving other cars on the Stemmon Overpass line. What is the evidence for this conclusion?

This may help what Chris is pointing out. This mapping of mine differs from what Adam Johnson says in this quote. Contrary to Bell and Altgens there is other media that says that Foster and the railroad men were not above Elm Street and others above Main Street. From another thread: Altgens 7 and Bell show Officer J. W. Foster and about 10 railroad men on the bridge when the p. limo approaches and is about to go under the bridge. These are fraudulent photos and frames. Why? Preponderance of the Evidence. There are 8 other films and photos that show no one was on the bridge during the time of the assassination. These are: 1. The Jim Towner Photo 2. The Weigman Film 3. The Bell Film- At the time the p. limo approaches the bridge an early Bell frame shows no one on the bridge, a few frames later shows 4 or perhaps 5 people there, and then a few frames later the same personnel as the Altgens 7 Photo. 4. The Martin Film 5. A Wilma Bond Photo 6. The Couch Film 7. The Paschall Film 8. The Hughes film With this information in mind the only person who could see if whether a person was crouched behind the angled railing on the south side of the bridge would be Officer J. C. White. He said there was a long, slow freight train on the track going towards to railroad yards. He would not have been able to see what went on there. No one could. The McIntyre photos (one of 3 photos) show this train in the railroad yards as the p. limo speeds toward the Stemmons exit. I will post this information in another thread shortly in a day or two. From the evidence I will provide in the other thread there is good reason to suspect a train was on the Triple Underpass with it's last boxcars directly behind the South Knoll. This freight train cleared the bridge by the time the p. limo was at the small exit sign for the Stemmons Freeway. As it was slowly moving as described by Officer White it would not have taken long to reach a higher speed and be off the bridge and in the railroad yards as shown in McIntyre. Then again one has to consider how slow was the slow freight train that Officer White described. Was it a slow of 5mph or 20 mph?

Conclusions About The Hole Through The P. Limo’s Windshield Here I have to make apologies to Jim Phelps for extending this topic beyond his original interest and intent. I contend there may have been at shot from a train car behind the South Knoll that could be responsible for the through hole in the windshield. This shot would take place at a Z 160 frame location of the p. limo. And, for linking this shot to a supposedly non-existent train in Dealey Plaza and going somewhat off topic pursuing the evidence for this train. Conclusions: It is possible that the through bullet hole in the p. limo’s windshield was made from the South Knoll in one of two ways as described below. At this point the most likely is a shot from the South Knoll to the p. limo located at Zapruder frame 225. The other shot at Z 160 depends on the existence of a train on the Triple Underpass with a car behind the South Knoll at the time of the shooting. The shot for the through hole in the p. limos windshield could have come from and in all probability did come the South Knoll. This is something in prior times I held no faith or believe in at all. However, circumstances changed with the work of Chris Bristow. The bullet hole in the windshield that traveled to the area of President Kennedy’s throat has been calculated as a 15 ° angle coming from the South Knoll at the position of Zapruder Film frame 225. Chris Davidson reminded folks that maybe so, but if Kennedy shifted position to the left or right then that shot could have come from other places. There are other ways a shot from the South Knoll could have made the hole through the windshield/Kennedy’s throat. This involves a train and will no doubt on any occasion raise debate. A long, slow freight train as described by Dallas Police Officer J. C. White passed over the Triple Underpass as the assassination was occurring. White’s fellow patrolman assigned to the Triple Underpass didn’t say anything about a train being there at the time of the assassination. His Warren Commission interviewer, Joseph A. Ball, did not mention a train being there at the time of the assassination. Later, Foster said there was. The train or no train will be discussed in detail later. With a boxcar or a passenger car passing directly behind the South Knoll and with a location of the p. limo at Zapruder frame 160, it is possible that the shot could be made to the windshield/throat. This involves math calculations of angles from the p. limo’s windshield/throat to the South Knoll of a 3 ° rise in the slope of the angle accounting for a 3.5 ° slope downhill on Elm Street to the Triple Underpass. The height of President Kennedy in the vehicle was said to be 3.5 feet above Elm. David Josephs provided the height of the Triple Underpass to the top of the railing there as 27 feet. If one looks at the specifications of a boxcar and a passenger car they are by regulation 4 feet above the tracks. The average height of a boxcar is 14 to 16 feet. So, a shot to the p. limo’s windshield would have to be in the range of about 15 feet above the railing. 27 feet for the railing and 15 feet above says the shot could not be made from a height greater than 41 feet and not lower than 27 feet. Standing on a crate or platform in the boxcar this shot could be made. Calculations would look like this: And would look like this visually: The problem with this scenario is that few believe there was a train on the railroad bridge at the time of the assassination.

Chris, You make several good points. But, I differ on interpretation. Some people may have problems with a perspective distance and the size of objects. However, others may not particularly if they have experience in judging color, perspective, size, and distance. I think that an object of the same relative (boxcars on Stemmons overpass) height as another (passenger cars on the Pergola spur) viewed from 100 yards away would make a considerable size difference. Officer Earle Brown was on the Stemmons Overpass and judged the distance to the railroad yards as 100 yards or 300 feet. Allen should show a size difference if the cars were 300 feet away. All train cars by regulation must be 4 feet above the tracks. Boxcars vary in height from 14 feet to 18 feet. Passenger cars are at average of 16 feet. Some are perhaps 2 feet taller. Allen may have small boxcars of 14 feet as versus the 16 or so feet of a passenger car. In Allen you cannot see the bottom of the cars, wheels, or tracks. So, the answer to that point is problematic or unknowable. Here is another thought. Wilma Bond 8 does not show boxcars attached to the passenger cars seen in Allen. If those boxcars were attached to the passenger cars in Allen then that would have to have been done between the time those two photos being taken. Perhaps an hour period or less or an unknown time. This is why I speculate that J. C. White was right and a long, slow freight train came into Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. This train was disassembled with some freight cars attached in the Allen photo and the rest assembled into two freight trains that Sgt. D. V. Harkness searched and found hoboes and tramps before they left Dallas. I have put forward several points and conclusions throughout this thread. Some are badly stated and others perhaps confusing. I am doing a rewrite to see if I can clarify what I have said earlier.

Chris, This is an interesting letter. The word horniation was a stumper until I figured out the word in herniation. The temporal region is around the ear. Going back toward the occipital is a line that that is fairly flat without much rise. According to Jenkins description this was a wound without much rise/descent. I marked a line centered through the two bones. The line crosses the Parietal Bone something like this. If the line was higher more of the Parietal Bone would be engaged. I also put an X where there was supposed to be another wound at the hairline in the frontal bone. This is the way I see Kennedy's head wounds. A orange or fist sized wound as described by others may engage more of the Parietal. Jenkins also said another thing interesting about Kennedy. He said there was no electrocardiographic evidence of cardiac activity. I think this means that Kennedy was DOA on arrival at Parkland. I have always thought that considering the seriousness of the head wound. So, I am off to spec land again. Why was it necessary to resuscitate if Kennedy was DOA on arrival at Parkland? There is something suspicious here particularly in regards to the throat wound. Is this a cover up for not examining the body for other wounds? For not examining the horrendous head wound and whether there was a shot to the back or more than one shot to the back. There is that autopsy photo that looks like there is more than one shot to the back.

Chris, Thanks for your persistence in getting me to see the correct view of things. Thanks. Lots of photos and frames to look at here. This is a lot to analyze. I suppose I went wrong with this overhead of Dealey Plaza. There are no signal towers on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass in this photo. Old school saying “learn it wrong, stays wrong”. OTOH, there is no signal towers on the main tracks. This is misleading or is it when looking at this. I’ll explain that in a moment: The overpass signal towers appear to be 120 feet or more behind the Pergola spur line. They look like they are drawn in with large, taller signals. Artwork? Chris, check this and see if it clarifies your conclusions on where things were with these approximate points. There is still the problem of the Allen parking lot photo. The passenger cars appear to be connected to boxcar cars. The passenger cars appear to be behind the east signal tower support. There would be a small gap between cars for the hooking mechanisms. It looks like they are hooked together. If the boxcars were out on the Stemmons overpass then there should be a perspective difference in size. Conclusion: Either Allen is altered or JFK exhibit F-15 is. There does not appear to be 120 or more feet distance between passenger cars and boxcars. I use 120 because that is roughly the distance across the Triple Underpass railroad tracks and would be about the same west of the parking lot. And, a closer look that gets flakier: I guess the object pointed to is supposed to be a passenger car window. Strange appearance for a passenger car window. There is variation in these windows, but perhaps none that low. There is variation in passenger car windows. Hughes gives the impression or illusion that the signal towers are right behind the parking lot and on the main tracks. The Hughes signal tower is huge in relation to the Allen photo. And, from Hughes perspective why can you see it at all? Bell agrees with Hughes except for size. Hughes should be smaller. Conclusion: Looking at these photos and frames suggests that efforts were made to show there was not a train in Dealey Plaza. Even though the 4 police witnesses said there were. I agree with Richard Price that at times the WC interrogators were leading witnesses, interrupting testimony, and calling a recess when a witness needed further instruction.

Richard, Thanks for the concern. I think you have misunderstood what I have said. In Earle Browns' shortened testimony I have the same things you have. There is no disagreement. I went through all of the testimonies of the policemen involved in complete detail. I have their complete testimonies stored. I shortened their testimonies to what I considered the relevant information for the points I was making. I shortened the policemen's testimony because folks tend not to read long statements. I tried to keep this presentation as short as possible for that reason. This is fairly close to Brown and Lomax's location. They would be closer due to Brown saying he was about 100 yards (300 feet) from the Triple Underpass. This is something I did years ago without thinking how close they were to the Triple Underpass as it relates to the TSBD. The TSBD is 100 feet wide and using Zapruder as a yardstick (foot per frame) that would be 386 feet to the Triple Underpass. The difference would be 86 feet or so. These are rough calculations without regard to elevation and angles. Once again, thanks for your concern.

Perhaps a better way to look at this train/no train situation is to re-examine what the Dallas Police Officers involved said. They would be probably be accounted as expert witnesses in court. There were 5 policemen, as far as I know, that made statements on what happened in and near the railroad yards concerning trains. These are: 1. Sargent D. V. Harkness 2. Officer Earle Brown 3. Officer James Lomax 4. Officer J. W. Foster 5. Officer J. C. White First off, is the easiest to discuss Officer James Lomax. Staff interview of James A. Lomax, Nov. 17, 1979, House Select Committee on Assassinations (JFK Doc. No. 014352). Here, he essentially said nothing. He didn’t see anything or was told anything by his partner on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass, Officer Earle Brown. Officer Earle Brown on the other hand had interesting information to detail. Testimony of Earle V. Brown, Apr. 7, 1964, 5 Warren Report Hearings, p. 231: Mr. BALL. On November , 1964, were you assigned to a certain post on duty? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Where? Mr. BROWN. That would be the railroad overpass over Stemmons Expressway service road. …. Mr. BROWN. There's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. Where I was was the railroad overpass. Mr. BALL. The railroad overpass Itself? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. How far were you from the place where the continuation of Elm goes under the overpass? Mr. BROWN. Oh, approximately 100 yards. …. Mr. BALL. Was there another patrolman on the overpass also? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir; James Lomax. Mr. BALL. Now, this Is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway? Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. BALL. And you are on the Stemmons Freeway end of It? Mr. BROWN. That's right; In other words, Stemmons Freeway and the service road both go under the underpass. …. Mr. BALL. Everything was in clear view? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. I withdraw the question. Was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards? Mr. BROWN. Yes. Mr. BALL. What? Mr. BROWN. Not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. Mr. Lomax and I remarked that we didn't have a very good view. Mr. BALL. Was that because of the moving trains? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that? Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston? Mr. BALL. Yes. Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped. Mr. BALL. Where? Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. Mr. BALL. Did It come to a. complete stop? Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to. Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some? Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down. Mr. BALL. Did you hear the shots? Mr. BROWN. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. How many? Mr. BROWN. Three. The important parts of Officer Brown’s testimony are emboldened. He was on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass with Officer Lomax. This was about 100 yards from the Triple Underpass. He said he had problems seeing due to moving trains. The reason they were on the overpass was they did not have a good view from the ground. The president was attacked in the Elm and Houston intersection after they made the turn. He at first says that the p. limo stopped but later says just slowed down. There were 3 shots. The Testimony of J.W. Foster was taken at 1:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mr. BALL - Tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the President's motorcade came into sight? Mr. FOSTER - I was standing approximately along the - I believe the south curb of Elm Street. Mr. BALL - Were you on the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; at the east - be the east side of the overpass. Mr. BALL - On the east side of the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Then was there another officer assigned to that same position? Mr. FOSTER - He was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir. Mr. BALL - What is his name? Mr. FOSTER - J.C. White. Mr. BALL - Where was he? Mr. FOSTER - He was on the west side of the overpass. …. Mr. BALL - Now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel off of that overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Did you do that? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Did you permit some people to be there? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Who? Mr. FOSTER - People that were working for the railroad there. Mr. BALL - Were there many people? Mr. FOSTER - About 10 or 11. Mr. BALL - Where were they standing? Mr. FOSTER - They were standing along the east banister. Mr. BALL - The east banister? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir; in front of me. …. Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - Was any shot fired from the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone with a weapon there? Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. Mr. BALL - Or did you here any sound that appeared to come from the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. …. Mr. BALL - Had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired? Mr. FOSTER - No; other than people that had come up there and I sent them back down the roadway. Mr. BALL - I see. People had attempted to get on the overpass there? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - And you had sent them away? Mr. FOSTER - yes, sir. …. Mr. BALL - Than you. One moment please. Who gave you your assignment, Mr. Foster? Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant Harkness. Mr. BALL - You did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass? Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Mr. BALL - How did you determine they were railroad employees? Mr. FOSTER - By identification they had with them. Identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees. …. Mr. BALL - Who was that sergeant? Mr. FOSTER - Sergeant came up there. Mr. BALL - Did you search the railroad cars? Mr. FOSTER - No; he sent me back down to the inspector. Told me to report back to Inspector Sawyer. Here, Officer Foster has a credibility problem in two regards. First he said there was not a train on the tracks which contradicts partner, Officer J. C. White. But, just above he says there were railroad cars in the vicinity. The Sargent who came up was more than likely Sargent D. V. Harkness. Also, I believe he later repudiated that statement and said there was a train there. However, I have not been able to find this on the internet or in my notes. Secondly, his location is not correct. Altgens 7 shows Foster and the railroad men on the TU as he testified here. But, at least 8 photos or film frames show this to be wrong. Here is an example of two from the Robert Hughes Film and the Patsy Paschall Film: As far as trains go the TU bridge is wide and not all trains would be seen and the railroad yards is also large enough to conceal trains from the photographers photos as we will see as we go along. The testimony of J.C. White was taken at 11:45 a.m., on April 9, 1964; In the office of the U.S. attorney, 801 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. …. Mr. BALL. How many people were on that overpass that day? Mr. WHITE. On the same side I was on? Mr. BALL. Yes. Mr. WHITE. None. Mr. BALL. None? Any people attempt to come up on the overpass around noon? Mr. WHITE. Not on my side. Mr. BALL. They did not? Mr. WHITE. No, sir. Mr. BALL. Had you seen your partner send any people away from the overpass? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. You had certain instructions, didn't you? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. What were they? Mr. WHITE. Not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass. …. Mr. BALL. Now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, didn't you? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. Who were they? Mr. WHITE. Workers of the railroad company. Mr. BALL. Were they people you knew? Mr. WHITE. No, sir. Mr. BALL. Well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad company? Mr. WHITE. Majority of them were there when we got there, working on the rails. Mr. BALL. And you let them stay there? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. …. Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's car come into sight? Mr. WHITE. No, sir; first time I saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass. Mr. BALL. You were too far away to see it, were you? Mr. WHITE. There was a freight train traveling. There was a train passing between the location I was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and-a big long freight train, and I did not see it. Mr. BALL. You didn't see the procession? Mr. WHITE. No, sir. …. Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President's car it was going underneath? Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir. Mr. BALL. What did you do after that? Mr. WHITE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwest side of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the officers and after about 30 minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I stood out there and worked traffic. Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything? Mr. WHITE. No, sir. This policeman’s testimony clearly indicates a train was on the railroad track during the assassination. The other Officer present on the Triple Underpass was J. W. Foster. The testimony of D. V. Harkness was taken at 11:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. …. Mr. HARKNESS - I went back to the front, and Inspector Sawyer---helped get the crowd back first, and then Inspector Sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard. Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do? Mr. HARKNESS - Well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station. Mr. BELIN - You mean some transients? Mr. HARKNESS - Tramps and hoboes. Mr. BELIN - That were on the freight car? Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do? Mr. HARKNESS - That was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there. We had several officers working in that area. Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in. Mr. BELIN - Were these what you call hoboes or tramps? Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN - Were all those questioned? Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned. Sargent Harkness saw at least two long freight trains in the railroad yards after the assassination. From one of these trains tramps or hoboes were removed and taken in for questioning. Conclusions: There were trains in the railroad yards that were not photographed by photographers. There were at least two trains about to leave Dallas about an hour after the assassination. Tramps or hoboes were taken from one and taken in for questioning. Supposition: There was an incoming train from the south coming into Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. This is the long slow train mentioned by Officer White. It could possibly be the source for the shot in the windshield at Z 160 as it passed behind the South Knoll. Railroad yards are for assembling and dismantling trains for reassignment elsewhere. There was enough time to dissemble and then resemble this train into two trains readying to leave Dallas.

Chris, The Allen and McIntyre 2 photo show the same area. They show the train with passenger and boxcars on the Pergola spur line directly near the parking lot at the TSBD/Railroad Yards. I can’t see a set of boxcars on the tracks under the signal towers in McIntyre 2. If the train showing boxcars was out on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass then it would be much smaller in perspective than the passenger cars in the railroad yards. The boxcars are in between the signal towers. This means that if the cars were about 300 or more feet (Earle Brown said about 100 yards) away on the Stemmons railroad overpass then Allen has been altered. You have the signal tower out on the Stemmons Freeway Railroad Overpass. Why would it be there rather than in the railroad yards as shown in Allen? There are 6 or 7 tracks on the TU overpass and in need of a signal tower. There is only one track out on the Stemmons overpass and extra signals would be redundant. The Tramps or Hoboes were in the boxcar and apprehended by the Dallas Police in the boxcars. There is no information on walking tramps or hoboes in the area of the Stemmons railroad overpass or anywhere in the railroad yards until they are removed from a train. There is a time difference between these photos. Time for the railroad yards personnel to move things around. The McIntyre 2 photo is taken directly after the assassination. And, this was a matter of seconds certainly less than a minute. The Allen photo could have been taken as much as a hour later. IMO, the train on the TU overpass was broken up and reassigned to two other trains and were about to leave the Dallas. This is what a railroad yard does and they do it speedily and readily from long time practice. One of the trains had tramps in a boxcar. There very well might have been a train on the Stemmons Railroad Overpass. Officer Earle Brown indirectly said there was not by being able to see into Dealey Plaza. However, in Wilma Bond 6 or perhaps 8 there is shown a rectangular object just behind the trees that it appears to be a train car. This is in the center of the altered area blocking out a train. I don’t believe a shot from the Grassy Knoll or the TU overpass directly west of the Grassy Knoll is responsible for the windshield shot. This shot came from the area of the South Knoll.

Chris, You make a lot of good points. I will think about this tomorrow in more detail.

Was Lee Bowers a creditable witness? Dallas Police Sargent D.V. Harkness described how the issue began to the Warren Commission:

Post deleted. See next post.

Chris, I believe this was the boxcars. At least this is what Chauncy Holt said according to my memory. The train passenger cars were there when Robert Hughes arrived in the yards. And, that is probably about 10 minutes or less after the assassination. There are several photos and film frames show the train was there as the assassination was in progress and several minutes thereafter. These are mentioned in an earlier post. One may not be able to see a train on the "Pergola spur" as described by Harold Weisberg. That is on the east side of the railroad bridge. The Triple Underpass is about 120 feet wide and from McIntyre the train would not be seen due to lower elevation. Dallas Police Officer J. C. White said that is was a long slow freight train. So did Officers Earle Brown and later J. W. Foster changed his testimony to say the same. Dallas Police Sargent D. V. Harkness searched two long freight trains in the rail yards and removed tramps from a freight car. I find this convincing. Officer White was on the west side of the bridge about where he said he was in his affidavit. You can see him in McIntyre. I don't see the signal towers in this McIntyre photo. Wrong angle perhaps? And, the same would be true in your other photo montage concerning towers. You can't see whether a train was there or not: Wilma Bond: The train/no train argument is old and not winnable by either side. This is my interpretation and someone else may very well disagree. IMO, there is a possibility of a shot from a train at about Z 160 if that train boxcars were behind the South Knoll. The Z 225 shot is a very good possibility. Here's another iffy thought. The motorcade photographers were held on Houston until the train cleared the bridge. Any other photographers arrived in the grassy area across Elm from the Pergola are like this Bond Photo. They were taken several moments after the assassination. You can see the 27th motorcade vehicle. This was a black 1957 Ford hardtop. I don't know how long this would have taken, but certainly several minutes.

A shot from the South Knoll The train/no train argument at the time of the Dealey Plaza assassination is just one of several related ideas to a shot coming from the South Knoll. Whether a train was there or not, the best evidence suggests a shot from the South Knoll area to the p. limo resulting in a through hole in the windshield to left of the windshield mirror and on to President Kennedy’s throat. Larry Hancock Posted Friday at 05:10 PM “I think the "passenger train" was not a real train but three stationary passenger cars on a siding - normally dispatched work sites as needed but at the time coupled and actually connected to a live steam pipe passing over a raised pipe which passed underneath cement siding on the overpass bridge. When I started going to Dallas parts of the pipe were still in place. If those three cars are what is being referred to as a train, they were not.? Larry Hancock Posted Friday at 06:34 PM “I'm petty sure that passenger car shown is one of the three that I mentioned in my post, not a mobile unit. But you can check by looking at overhead views of the period which clearly show the location of the three cars. Other photos of the day show a policeman standing on top of one of them. In any event, the photo you posted above was taken some time after the assassination as cars were being cleared out of the lot. Its hard for me to imagine a passenger train would be cleared into yard an hour or so after the assassination and simply parked there..?” This montage explains the idea visually. This train probably was connected as Hancock suggests. However, it did not have an engine attached as seen in other frames from Hughes. Engines can be decoupled from trains in a moment, a small period of time, and re-tasked elsewhere. So can other cars be detached and moved around in the railyard yards. Re-tasking cars is the major purpose of a railroad yard. This is the train that was searched by the Dallas Police and found the three tramps. A later photo of a policeman on the train top is a good indication of that. These are photos taken after the assassination in the rail yards directly after the shooting. A best guess might suggest about 10 minutes or less. According to a Wilma Bond photo, taken moments after the shooting the train was there during the assassination or possibly on the bridge. There is no pictorial evidence for a train in Dealey Plaza during the assassination on the railroad bridge. The best one can say is there was alteration. Some photos, such as the Willis slide, were altered. There is a Wilma Bond photo showing a train beyond the Grassy Knoll structure, on what Harold Weisberg called the Pergola spur, should have been visible in Willis. A Nix frame shows the same thing. There is convincing evidence by witnesses, Dallas Policemen and others, that there was a train in Dealey Plaza during the assassination. Now, the information about the train provided by Hancock being believable or not is problematic. This information most likely came from the railroad companies. Here’s why: From Wikipedia: “The State of Texas chartered the Union Terminal Company on March 16, 1912. The mission of the company was to build a central terminal in Dallas for the seven railroads then serving the city.[1] The terminal company ownership expanded to eight railroads, each having a 12.5% share: the Texas & Pacific; the Frisco; the Rock Island; the Cotton Belt; the Southern Pacific; the Santa Fe; the Katy; and the Trinity & Brazos Valley.” The Union Terminal Company is the organization that is of interest here because the 11 or 12 railroad workers, with most interviewed by Mark Lane, are from that company. I think Mark Lane was so ecstatic to have other shooting in Dealey Plaza he uncritically accepted what these men had to say. But, perhaps he didn’t know about all of the things discussed here which comes from later evidence. Union Company Terminal Railroad Witnesses allegedly on Triple Underpass 1 C F Bishop Bishop, Curtis Freeman 3/19/64 FBI report 2 E W Cowsert Cowsert, Ewell William 3/19/64 FBI report 3 G A Davis Davis, George A. 3/19/64 FBI report 4 R C Dodd Dodd, Richard Calvin 3/18/64 FBI report 5 S M Holland Holland S.M. * 11/22/63 Affidavit 6 C E Johnson Johnson, Clemon Earl 3/18/64 FBI report 7 A L Miller Miller, Austin L. * 1/22/63 Affidavit 8 T J Murphy Murphy, Thomas J. 3/20/64 FBI report 9 N H Potter Potter, Nolan H. 3/19/64 FBI report 10 F E Reilly Reilly, Frank E. 11 J L Simmons Simmons, James L. ** 3/19/64 FBI report 12 R G Skelton Skelton, Royce G. * 11/22/63 Affidavit I have demonstrated earlier in this thread and other threads that these men were not on the Triple Underpass above Elm Street as portrayed in Altgens 6 and the Bell film. Instead they were at the north end of the bridge where the grassy slope comes up into that area. The were held there by Officer Foster. More than likely they could still see what was transpiring in Dealey Plaza. They would have known about a train on the tracks. Their testimony may be true or contrived for the benefit of the Union Terminal Company. And, now to the heart of the matter. There may have been a shot or from the Grassy Knoll, but it was not the shot that produced the through hole in the windshield. This and things like Jesse Curry saying there needs to be men sent up unto the bridge to find out what was going on there lead me to believe there is something dubious concerning activities in the Triple Underpass area. This information indicates there was something sketchy going on in that area and information provided by the Union Terminal Co. and other railroad companies, the railroad workers, and other general information needs to looked at more closely and perhaps discounted.

Allen- Passenger and freight train on same track next to parking lot.

Shots from the Bridge I was through with the Jim Phelp’s thread “JFK's Limo Windshield from National Archives---No Holes Barred” and had no intentions of returning when I posted this as my opinion: “WC CE 351 is a fake. There is enough evidence here to say so without doubt. It is just one of many things covered up by the White House and its various agencies and the Warren Commission. Edited Saturday at 11:47 AM by John Butler” However, things would nag from time to time. I did a poor job of showing where it is possible for a shot from the Triple Underpass could have been made. This is an attempt to perhaps do that better. I have two fine, outstanding fellows to help with this answer, David Josephs and Chris Bristow. First off, David Josephs helped with my feeble knowledge of Dealey Plaza mathematics. He sets the height of the Triple Underpass from Elm Street to the top of the railing at 26.3 ft. This includes the height of President Kennedy. Chris Barstow provided information for shot angles, rise (or slope) of 3 degrees of the angle, and the slope for the downhill run from the intersection to the Triple underpass at 3.5 degrees. He also provided an angle for the shot from President Kennedy’s throat to the windshield hole just to the left of the windshield mirror. It was a 15 degree angle. This is enough to calculate where a shot from the railroad bridge could have been made. During this presentation the Zapruder Film will be used as a yardstick with each frame representing approximately a foot per frame. I made a table of the results of looking at 5 places the p. limo would have been on Elm Street in relation to the Triple Underpass with an angle of the shot fired at 15 degrees: Zapruder Frame- Distance to bridge- Height- Conclusion Z 02 484 Ft. 54.87 Ft. Not possible, too high Z 60 426 Ft. 48.30 Ft. Not possible, too high Z 133 353 Ft. 40.02 Ft Not possible, perhaps to high Z 160 326 Ft. 36.96 Ft Possible Z 225 161 Ft. 18.25 Ft Not possible, too low A special pleading can be made for a shot at Z 133 or Z 160 from the railroad bridge from a train ( I will speak of a train later) located at the south end of the Triple Underpass. Z 133- This would pass directly over the South Knoll. A shot here would be based upon the height of the bridge railing at 26.87 ft. A boxcar 14 ft. tall (average size for boxcars are 14 to 16 ft. or some 18 ft.). A train car by regulation is 4 ft. above the tracks. 26.87 + 1 ft. above railing + car height of 10 ft. equals 37 ft. Unless some one shot from on top of the car this is not possible. One could use a taller boxcar at, say 18 ft., and have your shooter stand on crates or a stand, then that might be possible. An explanation of what this would look like is below. Based on this: The p. limo’s angle is derived from its position on Elm Street headed west. The shot angle is then calculated based on Bristow’s 15 degree angle. We will do one more from the table to explain the method better: Z 160- It is possible for a shot from a train box or passenger car located at the south end of the Triple Underpass. This shot would also pass directly over the South Knoll as the other example of Z 133. The p. limo through shot in the windshield definitely, with little doubt, came from the South Knoll area. It is possible for a train passenger or box car stationed at the south end of the Triple Underpass to make a shot to the p. limo at Z 160. Once again the height of the railroad bridge is 26.87 ft. to the railing top. At shot with the p. limo at Z 160 which is 326 ft. This gives a height of 36.93 ft. Using a 16 or 18 ft. high car it is possible to make this shot at 326 ft. based on this: And would look like this: A train on the Triple Underpass is a minority position. Few believe that there was a train on the railroad bridge as the President came down Elm Street in Dealey Plaza. There is really no pictorial evidence that there was a train in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination. Robert Hughes shows a passenger train in the railroad yards after the assassination. There is an Allen photo that shows a passenger/boxcar in the railroad yards after the assassination. The passenger cars are taller than the boxcars. There were 3 Dallas police officers who said there was a train on the tracks as the assassination occurred. These are: 1. J. W. Foster- east side of the Triple Underpass located at the north end of the bridge- He, at first said there was not a train, but later said there was. 2. J. C. White- located on the west side of the TU approximately above Main Street. He said a train was there and it kept him from hearing anything and saw the p. limo come out from the TU while the train was still there. 3. Earle Brown- was located further west on the Stemmons Freeway Overpass about the same distance from the TU as the TU is from the Elm intersection. He said there was a train. Three police officers saying the same thing will usually convince a court of what they were testifying about. There was an article by Fred T. Newcomb in which one of the Willis slides were said to show a train, but had been altered while in the custody of the FBI. OTH, there is no pictorial evidence showing a train in Dealey Plaza on the bridge. However, the activity that afternoon on the railroad bridge is highly suspicious. It indicates something was going on there to coverup something. Altgens 6 and Bell show Officer J. W. Foster and about 10 railroad men on the bridge when the p. limo approaches and is about to go under the bridge. These are fraudulent photos and frames. Why? Preponderance of the Evidence. There are 8 other films and photos that show no one was on the bridge during the time of the assassination. These are: 1. The Jim Towner Photo 2. The Weigman Film 3. The Bell Film- At the time the p. limo approaches the bridge an early Bell frame shows no one on the bridge, a few frames later shows 4 or perhaps 5 people there, and then a few frames later the same personnel as the Altgens 6 Photo. 4. The Martin Film 5. A Wilma Bond Photo 6. The Couch Film 7. The Paschall Film 8. The Hughes Film This gives a brief idea of the train or no train in Dealey Plaza. The conclusion of all this is that a shot to either the Z 160 or Z 225 location is correct for producing the location of the windshield hole and subsequent throat wound of President Kennedy. This was fired from the area of the South Knoll either from the parking lot or a train on the tracks directly behind and above it.

Jim Phelps Advanced Member No Holes: Jim Phelps started this thread with this image. This is from the windshield marked as WC CE 351. You can compare this to Altgens 6: David Josephs has made a case for later cracks around the hole in the windshield. But, the cracks seem different in these two photos. Doesn't matter. The original windshield was destroyed in Detroit according to George Whitaker, Sr. Altgens 7 doesn't have enough resolution to see these crack or the hole through the windosw. As you can see here there is a hole through the windshield as can be seen in Altgens 6 and described by many witnesses. This is from Greg Wagner: But I don't question the authenticity of the photo simply because the government are li@r$, with a track record of deception and obfuscation in this case. It's that the assertion there was no bullet hole in the windshield is in direct conflict with the observations of nine witnesses. The FBI, the Warren Commission, you, me and anyone else considering this were not there. These nine people were there during the assassination or the immediate aftermath (albeit Whitaker's story is, I believe, uncorroborated), had a good look at the windshield, and stated there was a bullet hole in it. That carries a lot of weight with me. Were all nine of them lying or mistaken? Stavis Ellis, DPD HR Freeman, DPD Evalea Glanges, nursing student at Parkland Joe Paolella, Secret Service Charles Taylor, Jr, Secret Service Richard Dudman, St Louis Post-Dispatch Frank Cormier, St Louis Post-Dispatch George Whitaker, Sr, Ford Motor Company Bill Greer (told to Nick Prencipe, US Parks Police) I made the case that Altgens 6 and Altgens 7 shows the same hole in the same position: And this is what George Whitaker, Sr. at the Ford Motor Co. said: David Winnett says: October 15, 2020 at 11:13 pm That flies in the face of a videotaped interview with the manager of Ford’s glass division in Michigan who says that on the Monday morning following the Friday assassination he was shocked to come to work to find the Lincoln JFK was killed in was in his shop. LBJ ordered the car flown to Detroit to be completely rebuilt. This man said that there was a through and through bullet hole in the windshield that showed a frontal entry. He was ordered to “shred” the windshield, which he did. This interview can be seen in the video series “The Men Who Killed Kennedy”. Dave Wimsett: "These nine people were there during the assassination or the immediate aftermath (albeit Whitaker's story is, I believe, uncorroborated)," I believe Whitaker did see a through hole in the windshield and is corroborated by these photos and other witnesses. WC CE 351 is a fake. There is enough evidence here to say so without doubt. It is just one of many things covered up by the White House and it’s various agencies and the Warren Commission.

Thanks David So, the height of the bridge is 428.4 minus 404 minus 3.27 or about 21 feet for the height of the bridge?

David, 428 ft can not possibly be the height of the railroad bridge. That's the distance to the railroad bridge. I don't know what the actual height of the railroad bridge from the Elm Street pavement at the foot of the bridge, but it cannot be 428 feet. More like 30 feet for the height of the bridge form the foot to top.

David, My take on this was there were no cracks base on the Altgens 7 photos I have. I must have a photo without high enough resolution to see those cracks. I will defer to your notion that there is cracks after Altgens 6 in the original windshield. I still say that the windshield of the WC is a replacement windshield and not the original. It does not have a hole through the windshield.

David, I'm trying to do the impossible for me. Calculations involving triangles. I just posted that. According to this the earlier Z frames point to the north end of the railroad bridge. The lines pass over the Grassy Knoll. Shots could have come from the bridge or the Grassy Knoll. More likely, the Grassy Knoll. These calculations would be more accurate if the height of the railroad bridge was known above Elm Street.