John Butler

John, Something suspicious from the internet on what Marilyn Murret knew and mayhaps connects her to some intelligence function: Nov 1, 1959 Marilyn Dorthea Murret plus MACS 9 (too old to reply) curtjester1 9 years ago Permalink November 1 - Marilyn Dorthea Murret On Sunday, November 1, John Pic's (and LEE Oswald's) cousin, Marilyn Murret visited Pic and his family at Tachikawa Air Base in Japan. Pic told the Warren Commission, "In approximately Oct-Nov, early November, the end of October 1959 (probably October 25) she called me up at the hospital......and I invited her out to the house the next weekend. She visited us on Sunday (Nov. 1), I believe...she talked about the family, and everything....she talked about LEE....she said, 'Do you know that LEE is is in Europe?" Somewhat surprised Pic said, "No, I don't know that." By reconstruction Pic's testimony and noting that Pic contacted the U.S. Embassy in Tokyo on Thursday, November 6, we realize the only Sunday that Marilyn Murret could have visited Pic and his family was on Nov. 1, BEFORE Oswald's "defection" was made public in Japan. Yet Marilyn Murret, the free-lance, globe-trotting school teacher, somehow knew that Oswald had already left for Europe. Pic did not know that LEE was in Europe, and somewhat curious, asked Marilyn about him. Pic told Commission Attorney Jenner, "It was that night, sir, onthe 9 o'clocknews (Sunday evening, Nov 1) that I learned that Lee had defected...on the American Armed Forces Network......the next day it appeared in the paper (Monday Nov. 2)....the Stars and Stripes..." (The only English press in Japan at that time was the Stars and Stripes and the American Armed Forces Network - neither of which had published articles or broadcast news about Oswald's defection by the time Marilyn had visited Pic and his family on November 1). Marilyn Murret had unknown but very good sources of information about Oswald's defection. When asked by Commission Attorney Liebeler, "Did John (Pic) tell you that Lee had gone to Russia?" Marilyn responded, "He didn't tell me, his WIFE told me. So I didn't bring the subject at all with John." Someone is Lying!! - either John Pic or Marily Murret. Which Oswald was it that Marilyn said was in Europe? October, 1959 (mid-October?)- Lee Oswald takes a MATS flight to Germany. This is dicussed in the Steenbarger interview at the HSCA in 1978.

Thanks Mark, I haven't got a clue what I was doing wrong. Did what you suggested first off. I did get something that looked like a spreadsheet, but didn't work properly. I'll try again. Your spreadsheet has been of immense help. By going through your witnesses I have increased mine to 75 witnesses. Being a lazy fellow I wished you had included a reference such as Sheriff's Office, DPD Report, FBI Report, etc. I have found that if people want to challenge your work having the work referenced to the report or document eventually sends those kind of fellows away. They can challenge you, but not the source. Anyway, Great Work and thanks. PS Sorry about the reference to sources note. Your sources are there I just didn't see them until I figured out how to load the spreadsheet correctly. This spreadsheet of your's is really one of the best research studies I have seen on witnesses. You do have info on what I am researching. But, you don't really emphasize the importance of the question where was the president when the witness heard shooting. Stupendous work. Thanks again.

Mark, When I attempt to look at this I get just a text file not a spreadsheet. Advise on where I am going wrong.

Wow! I'm not the person to argue with Joseph or Davidson. I would have thought Z 175-180 would be further down the street and closer to the Stemmons sign. If David and Chris are right then Z 175 the first shot has already happened. This makes a fellow want to go back and take another look at Croft, Betzner, and Willis. Particularly Croft. This is a tranquil scene with no hint of violence. From here at about Z 175 to Z 313 is about 138 frames or 7.5 seconds. The assassination with this range as the range is well within the official story or at least close to it. I'm not sure this is out from under the trees and visible to the 6th floor. There is a strange reflection on the trunk. It is a very clear reflection of the TSBD and a tree trunk/tree visible there. What I find strange is that the passenger side of the car shows this clear reflection and the driver's side of the car does not show a bright, clear reflection, but is instead murky. The sun is coming more or less from the south and west. There should be a nice bright reflection there showing the SW corner of Elm and Main. From the angle of the sun I don't see, but should see that area clearly. If you do a blow up of Croft the p. limo gets weirder. The top part of the vehicle shows a bright sun on a bright sunny day. Notice the front door handle. The bottom part shows a gloomy, dark day with the sun hidden. If you blow that up you might see something that looks like the Federal Annex and Main Street on the side of the vehicle. I am not certain that that would be the case from the angle of the sun.

I just noticed that the pen in Lee's hand looks more like a pencil: I guess that does away with the pen top in Lee's mouth for the lack of teeth.

Paul, I'm assuming this is from Brennan's book. He gave many range estimates for this event happening. I forgot the 50 yard range estimate when I spoke of this earlier. The sequence of range estimates I believe goes like this: 1. 50 yards- 150 feet from intersection 2. 70 yards- 270 feet from the intersection 3. 30 yards- 90 feet from the intersection ( I may not have these in the correct order- to lazy to look up the correct order) 4. The last was a "short distance"- I take this to be more or less in front of him. None of the answers suited the FBI. They left him to say a "short distance" which could mean anything. Howard says that he learned the whole scene took less than 10 seconds. I once estimated the Zapruder Gap at about 21 seconds just based on how long it took for the motorbikes to get to Z frame 132. Others suggest about 20 seconds. David Joseph probably had the best estimate of about 15 seconds. So, I would guess about 15 to 20 seconds. Let's use 15 seconds for the gap. At 18.3 frames per second we are missing about 275 frames. If one take 20 then 366 frames. That makes the gap the longest part of the film. Lots could happen in there. Take Brennan's largest estimate of 70 yards or 270 feet. At 18.3 frames per second (based on a frame per foot) that is about 486 frames or 26 seconds (the length of the whole film) from the intersection. Wouldn't that be at the Triple Underpass. Somebody needs to check my math here errors or even for relevance.

David, Would you agree that Z 157 shows the p. limo at about the SW corner of the TSBD. Looking at the frame one sees that the p. limo is about at the end of the cement at the SW corner of Elm and Houston. Camera angles suggest it may be further down Elm. But, the p. limo doesn't seem to be in front of the lamppost across from the R L Thornton sign. That's about 10-20 feet off the TSBD. So, is the p. limo in this shot parallel with the SW corner of the TSBD?

Paul, At least agreement on one shot early on at the intersection is a good start. In prior times no one would accept an early shot at the intersection and in front of the TSBD. Due to the Zapruder film this notion of early shooting was a heresy. Only a few people tried to back up the shooting from where most folks think it happened generally according to Zapruder. But, not as far as the intersection or in front of the TSBD. I'm not sure I agree Howard Brennan saw what he saw in a 6th floor Dal-Tex window on the Southeast side. To many people describe similar things seen at the 6th floor TSBD. Is there any other evidence for a 6th floor sniper at that location in the Dal-Tex? I haven't seen any. I haven't paid close attention to what people are saying due to rejecting the idea. This is my attempt to pay closer attention.

Actually, there are about 8 films that are damaged as the p. limo passes the Court Records Building and begins to make the turn onto Elm Street. There are 71 witnesses that say shooting occurred in front of the TSBD. Tina Towner has been remade. For background material showing the TSBD doorway where we should see the Altgens 6 crowd we have this: Those white splotches in the doorway are Dallas police white hats. They used film taken after the motorcade left the area to construct the Towner film. And, probably from the Towner film the details of the p. limo. Can you see the X on Jackie? Can you see black paint on JFK disguising the orientation of his head. This frame is very similar to the frame showing where Kennedy was shot for the second time. It has a large "hit X" painted on it. Was Toni Glover right and JFK was wearing his black patch in the Towner film? Examine the film frame by frame and see.

This is a tad off topic: From Penn Jone’s Continuing Inquiry pdf “5) Craig and C.L. Lewis were looking for a possible bullet scar on the south curb of. Elm Street based upon information from Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers. Various photos have been Published of Walthers and Officer J.W. Foster who allowed an unidentified man, cited as an "F.B.I. agent" in Chief Jesse Curry's book, J.F.K. Assassination File, to pick up something and deposit the object into his pocket. Craig claims that Walthers told him that evening that the object in question was a 45 caliber slug imbedded in brain debris, but later Walthers recanted the story.” Ron Bulman mentioned sometime back the De Lisle carbine as a possible Kennedy assassination weapon. This was a weapon that shot a .45 caliber round and was sound suppressed. That and similar British assassination weapons were said to be so quiet that you would only hear a sound similar to snapping a zippo lighter. A weapon such as this may have accounted for one of Kennedy's head wounds. The one in the frontal-temporal region near his forehead's hair line. I've often speculated that Kennedy was shot in the head with a .45 from such a weapon with a reduced powered round. The round penetrated Kennedy's head and addled his brain and mind. All he could think of was to do his duty and smile and wave at the crowd. This is why I say the assassination was botched. They thought they had missed with this head shot and with other shots like the back shot due to his back brace. The order went out for a fusillade as mentioned by Roy Kellerman, I believe. There is no way to prove such a speculation. The .45 slug with brain matter suggests there may be some validity.

Yes. It could very well be the same marksman. If I am remembering correctly, Chauncey Holt said in his last video just before he died, that he was a lookout at the Bugsy Siegel killing. I took this as his means of saying I killed Bugsy Siegal, but I'm not going to confess to it. Hard-core Mafia to the last, in my opinion. He admitted to the lesser crime of being involved. Through this last video Holt said he was ordered onto the train in Dealey Plaza after the assassination. He didn't say who ordered him unto the train, but the impression was some higher up or higher ups in the Mafia. He said he had to get on that train. Once orders like that were given they had to be obeyed. He was part of a 3 man team and just the radio man and later claims he was one of the 3 tramps. He worried whether he would become the patsy by being blown up. There was explosives in the train car. Once again, I think this was his way on saying he was on the train during the assassination and had been one of the shooters. There's no way to prove that, but that was my thoughts watching the video. I do make mention from time to time of the 3 patsy photo in New Orleans with Oswald, Holt, and Bill Shelly. There is considerable argument on whether there was a train on the Triple Underpass when the assassination occurred. The other side of this argument calls this the "Train Game".

David, Sorry. There's a slight confusion here. If Lee Oswald is discharged from the Marines in March, 1959 (according to Gorksy) then there is an opportunity for Lee Oswald to take that hunting photo in March, 1959. It is just a possibility. So, when did Robert take that photo of Lee? Feb., 1958 Nov., 1958 March, 1959 Sep., 1959 He said at various times when Lee was home on leave- first in Sept., 1959 at the WC- Feb., 1958 in the book photo caption. You brought up Nov. 1958. Good call. I should have remembered he came home on leave from Japan in Nov., 1958. It's a possibility the hunting photo was taken then. I hope that clears that up. I have to agree. I think when all is said and done Robert will turn out to be a bona fide member of the Oswald Project. Not as a double (although their may be a couple of instances of that, maybe) but in a support role.

I still don't understand your notion of line of sight. Anywhere you look is your line of sight. Howard picked a spot where he could view the entire area of the motorcade once it came unto Houston. By shifting his position slightly in any direction where he sat he could see it all (the area covered by the motorcade). Yes, he could look at the Dal-Tex. But, he could also look at the Court Records building, the TSBD, the new Court House, etc.

David, Your saying that my speculation of another time for the hunting trip could be valid? Lee was on leave after his oriental service and that was from 23 Nov. 1958 to 18 Dec. 1958. There is also no mention of leave in Feb., 1958. Can't be Harvey in that photo (except for the head). Lee also went home after his March, 1959 discharge, maybe. Did Robert get both dates wrong? Two many Lees to keep up with? I say two many to keep up with?

David, This is a Stevens quote. It is pretty simple. Howard could look all of the way south to Houston and Main. He couldn't look north up Houston Street much past the TSBD corner. He might be able to see some distance east on Elm Street (mainly blocked by the Court Records Building). The intersection area was all available to him. I think he could see down to the Grassy Knoll. What's the big deal trying to understand his line of sight?

David, And, it's likely that Howard didn't see a sniper. Wrong description of the man supposedly Oswald, he saw him standing pointed the gun out the window (physically impossible), he didn't see a scope on the rifle and he didn't see it shoot. He couldn't identify Oswald at a lineup. He didn't know how far away the vehicle was when he heard a shot. So, the question becomes how did he become a star witness for the WC?

David, Could be. But, Elsie's film was taken from the 4th floor and slightly to the west of the TSBD door. And, Bell's film is definitely behind. Thanks for these. I only thought of the WC exhibits whose saintly numbers escape me at the moment. Where I went wrong was thinking of only from the TSBD doorway.

This photo: Falsied by who? The FBI and CIA photo labs. The FBI collected everything about Oswald. Even obscure school records. Let's see. This photo was in Robert Oswald's 1967 book. So, one can assume he added the caption with the date and explanation. Which do you think he got wrong? The February, 1958 or September, 1959. Which date did he have his memory lapse over? Is it possible this is just a bad memory recollection? The Sept., 1958 date must be the one he got wrong. Robert said to the Warren Commission in Feb. 20, 1964 that it was in September, 1959 that he and Lee went hunting at the Mercer Farm. He simply didn't remember he said that to the Warren Commission in later years? And, then later when he was in the process of writing for his 1967 book he put that caption on the photo with the Feb., 1958 date on the photo and didn't recall what he said to the WC in 1964. Now this is strange because Robert gave a very detailed recollection of the hunting trip in 1964. He listed who went, their equipment, and their exploit of Lee, Robert, and his brother all shooting at one rabbit. This is about 5 years after the event he described to the WC. But, just a few years later he forgets this detailed story given to the WC and puts that caption on the photo. Why? That can't be Lee in Feb., 1958. Lee is in the Philippines in 1958. Can't be Lee in Sep., 1959. He's gone missing and no one has reported where he was since his discharge in March, 1959. Could Robert have mixed up Lee's homecoming in March, 1959 with Harvey's homecoming in Sept., 1959. So, this is Lee at some other date then that mentioned on this photo and later at the WC. When Robert got all the family photos back from the FBI to write his book they had been altered. Harvey's head is now on the Lee body. He sees Harvey in the picture and remembers Harvey visiting from New Orleans in Feb., 1958 and puts that date on the photo. He says Lee (actually Harvey) is on leave in Feb., 1958. (Not possible he is in the Philippines with no home leave) It makes sense since Harvey has gone AWOL from the Marines after radar training in 1957 and is in New Orleans for about a year. Harvey, a PFC, shows up on the Marine records again in about August, 1958 as a Pvt. Was he demoted for his AWOL? Whatever the circumstances, Robert, Lee, and Harvey are all frauds. We will probably never know their true story.

In Jim DiEugenio's article is this statement: "One photo is taken from the door, straight on, to Brennan. The other is taken from behind, and he hasn’t moved." I don't know of any photos like this. It would be interesting to see those. But, he may have been speaking of the later WC exhibits that show where Brennan supposedly sat on the retaining wall. Photos of the passenger side of the p. limo are scarcer than hen's teeth once the vehicle approaches the Houston Street turn. There is Jay Skaggs who captures the turn onto Houston. There is Elsie Dorman who shows Howard Brennan, but stops filming as the p. limo is in the area of the Court Records Building, and then there is the greatest source of misinformation, the Zapruder film, which does capture the passenger side of the p. limo. The Zapruder film has no competition when viewing the passenger side of the p. limo. Imagine that. I once scanned all of the available photos showing the p. limo and the various streets it traveled on when they were within about a block of so from the Main Street/Houston turn. There was about 15 unknown photographers on the passenger side of the vehicle that could of showed that aspect of the p. limo. What happened to their film? Is it believable that the only people taking film from Record St. on Main to the Triple Underpass of the p. limo's passenger side were Skaggs and Zapruder? (There is the AMIPA film of Bob Yeargan who did film the motorcade from the passenger side as it approached Record Street and went further west toward Houston.) I don't think I have ever heard or read of anyone noticing this or making a comment. Do you find this surreal?

David has correctly pointed out one of the very distinguishing characteristics of Lee Oswald. You can't hide body skeleton/posture shapes. But, you can hide Lee Oswald. Think of that for a moment. Harvey replaces Lee beginning in the Marine Corps. Harvey becomes the patsy and dies. Lee, perhaps lives on. So, what about Lee's life before he is replaced by Harvey. Lee has to disappear. Everything about Lee has to be replaced by Harvey. This includes photos. Every photo of Lee has to be replaced by a Harvey photo or Harvey has to be edited into the Lee photo. So, the slanting shoulders are a good identifier of Lee. In the Marine Corps training class photo we have Lee with Harvey's face. Or, at least enough of Harvey's face to make the photo Harvey. This Marine photo is very interesting example of editing. This individual has Harvey's chin, nose, ears (earlobes and the left ear with two bends in the upper rim) and Lee's shoulders. And, the more you argue about this whose who (everyone sees things from their perspective) the better job the photo editors did. Consider this whose Harvey and whose Lee photo montage. The 1959 photo has been identified as Lee mainly by his sloping shoulders. I contend, though this is Lee's shoulders, that the face is of Harvey. Working on the principle that Lee has to be replaced in every photo possible. Why? Harvey has a narrow chin, long but relatively narrow nose, and earlobes. Another characteristic of Harvey which can be see in the 1963 photo is that he has a receding hairline that he covers with a comb over. In fact the 1963 comb over covers the 1959 receding Hairline of Harvey. Look at the middle photo that David has indicated is Lee due to the sloping shoulders. This individual (this is from a Lee and Marina photo) has a full head of hair and no sign of a receding hairline or comb over. If you will also notice his left ear he has no earlobe to speak of and the upper rim lacks the two bends characteristic of Harvey. The 1959 photo is very interesting. It is a good example of the contradictory evidence associated with Lee and Harvey. It has two dates associated with it. Neither one maybe correct since they are provided by Robert Oswald. The caption on the photo says Lee and Robert went hunting in Feb., 1958 while he was home on leave. Lee was in the Philippines in 1958 and there is no evidence he took leave there and Harvey was AWOL at the Pfisterer Dental Labs New Orleans. Later Robert says this photo was taken when Lee came home discharged from the service about September 12, 1959. Neither one of the dates may be true since this is a false photo that combines Lee and Harvey. Why would the information be true if he photo is not? The folks at Harvey and Lee won't like this assessment since it puts Lee in Russia with Marina in 1961. Then the issue becomes where's Harvey if the 1961 photo if that is Lee? I can only speculate. Harvey's out doing spy stuff while Lee's with Marina being monitored by about 30 KGB agents. I would think that's how a double spy team works.

As I said I'm not a battle field surgeon or in the case of Kennedy's autopsy an Army General or Navy Admiral, but those spots on Kennedy's back sure look like bullet wounds. Go to your favorite internet browser and type in "bullet entry wounds" and you will see many holes like that which is shown in that back photo above. I've seen this before. The photo looks like there is a gaping black hole in the region of the occipital and stretching towards the parietal region. If you look close you can see brush marks using ink or thin black paint.

Not being a battle field surgeon, just some fellow who thinks the wounds pointed to by the arrows look like bullet wounds. Wounds from more than one rifle from their appearance. I think the assassination was botched. I think Kennedy was shot, but didn't give any appearance of being shot due to his back brace and perhaps pain-killers. Thinking that they had missed Kenned the order went out they opened up on Kennedy and this is the result:

Nope. I don't think anyone saw that until Harold Weisberg saw it that in 1967. (I hope my memory is correct on that)

Joe, You make many excellent points. They are sound and logical. I just want to make comment on one. These assassins were professional fellows. They would have understood that they could be seen from other places. They would have taken measures to conceal themselves. For instance in the Altgens 6 crop I posted earlier you can see that mesh screens blocked the shooters window. These would have provided enough concealment to be not seen or at least not recognized. Compare this sniper team to the stage show in the 6th floor Sniper's Nest. I think the only early person to mention this is Harold Weisberg. There may have been others, but that's all I recall. The sixth floor Sniper's Nest was a show piece with weapons sticking out the window. At least 2 men were walking around showing weapons. But, there were not shots fired from the Sniper's Nest. Even Howard Brennan said he didn't see anyone shoot from there. Of the 13 witnesses the closest to the Sniper's Nest (within 40 feet on other floors) only two said shots came from above (Norman and Williams). Junior Jarman changed his testimony to shots coming from low and to the left. This would fit the Dal-Tex sniper team in the Altgens crop. The other eleven (except Elsie Dorman) thought the shots came from the west from the Grassy Knoll or the Triple Underpass. Elsie Dorman thought the shots came from the Court Records Building. Just as an aside. I have looked at this photo for years and I have just spotted very vague imagery suggesting a scope on the rifle. I won't argue it since it is so vague. But, objects in nature are never, or almost never in a straight line.

I posted perhaps 3 or 4 years ago photos similar to this for the intersection of Main and Houston, and Elm and Houston. I almost posted lines for the X marks the spot of Robert Groden. Dealey Plaza is a sniper's paradise: This is why I occasionally call Dealey Plaza Murder Plaza. I focused these lines of fire on the intersection, but they could equally be focused on the official story spot, X marks the spot in front of the Grassy Knoll for those who prefer the official story. If you notice one of the red lines stretch from the SE corner of the Dal-Tex all the way to the railroad bridge. The lines coming into the intersection from Houston Street, or from a southern direction are not unrealistic if you read some witness testimonies. Some claim the President had a left temple wound. They can account for some of the President's wounds as well as shots from east Elm, the Dal-Tex, and the TSBD. Admittedly, there are more witnesses who say that shooting occurred past the TSBD and down Elm Street. But, one still has to account for the 71 witnesses that said the shooting occurred in the intersection.