John Butler

That's two indications of fakery. Are there more?

Jim, "There are a number of things wrong with this document, but one of them is quite obvious if you know the alleged biography of Classic Oswald®. Can anyone spot it?" Since no one has answered this I will give it a try. Is it the conflict between his address in TX and the addresses of the jobs in N O? His spelling on this return seems better than later returns. Here is a timeline for that period which helps: November 10, 1955: LHO starts work as a messenger boy at Gerald F. Tujague Inc. January, 1956: LHO works as an office boy at J.R. Michels Inc. February, 1956: LHO begins work for Pfisterer Dental Laboratory, where he would be employed for several months. July, 1956: Marguerite, LHO, and Robert move to Collinswood Street in Fort Worth. September, 1956: LHO enrolls at Arlington Heights High School. September 28, 1956: LHO drops out. October 3, 1956: LHO contacts the Socialist Party of America. October 24, 1956: LHO enlists in the United States Marine Corps at the age of 17. Marine Corps October 26, 1956: LHO reports for duty in San Diego. October 30, 1956: LHO takes a series of aptitude tests in which he scores 2 points below average overall. December 21, 1956: LHO scores a 212 (Sharpshooter) on a marksmanship test. January 18, 1957: LHO reports to Camp Pendleton, California, where he is assigned to the "A" Company of the 1st Battalion, 2nd Infantry Training Regiment. February 27, 1957: LHO goes on leave for 2 weeks. He doesn't report taxes for the military for Oct.-Dec. 1956? Did he file taxes for 1955 as messenger boy? OBTW, having served in the military at a young age you really don't forget you are in the military that early on in your military career. Particularly, at tax time. The IRS checks for that sort of thing.

Mitcham, Glad to see you are using a data argument rather than insults. I used two frames from Davidson's gif. These clearly show shadowed areas between branches as an anthropomorphic figure. This is what happens when you put together a .gif with frames set at .08 Which is probably to high at 48 frames per sec. Elsie's camera didn't record at that speed. She recorded at 16 fps. This gives the illusion of movement particularly when the wind was blowing strongly that day in Dealey Plaza. Many witnesses commented on the strong wind that day. There was rain in the morning. The airport was covered with water in places as the motorcade left. There was a strong wind in Dealey Plaza noted by many.

Davidson's man in the bushes in Dorman: I only see a shadowed area between branches and not a human figure. A human figure should look like this in the Dorman film and not a black cut out which is actually a shadowed area between branches:

Yo, Cat Skinners. Zapruder Vs. Dorman on the SW Corner of Elm and Houston We only have two views of the South West corner of Elm Street and Houston Street. These views are the Zapruder film and the Elsie Dorman film. Was Elsie Dorman the only person in the TSBD was filming? No one at the Houston / Elm intersection, or in front of the TSBD, or in Mannequin Row was taking pictures? No one was taking photos on Houston after the turn on east Houston? Once the presidential limousine arrives in Dealey Plaza only Jay Skaggs and Abraham Zapruder are allowed to film the presidential limousine from the passenger side of the vehicle. Everyone else has to be satisfied with the driver’s side to photograph or film. By viewing these two films we should be able to establish how many people were on the SW corner of Elm and Houston. The two films, Zapruder and Dorman should match. They don’t. By viewing these films frame by frame, we come up with a different number of people there at the SW corner of Elm and Houston at the same time in the two films. How is this possible? The discrepancy between counting people there in the two films is too large and needs explanation. The counting of people on the SW corner will be approximate numbers since in the view of Zapruder some people are not seen well or not at all. The Dorman Mosaic does not show all of the people on the SW corner. The Elsie Dorman film has approximately twice as many people on the corner as the Zapruder film does before and after the Zapruder Gap. The number is large enough to render the notion of counting of whether the count is approximate or exact non-significant. This is a large discrepancy in the number of people there on the SW corner when the Dorman and Zapruder films are considered! And, it needs of an explanation. In the Zapruder film we have two counts of people on the SW corner. One before the Zapruder Gap ending at Z 132 and then one after the Zapruder Gap beginning at Z 133. The best estimate that judges the time between Z 132 and Z 133 is 18 seconds. In Z 132 the presidential limousine has just turned onto Houston Street and was about 229 feet from the position found in Z 133. In Z 133 the presidential limousine is almost across from the SW corner of the TSBD. The way people are counted in the Zapruder film and the Dorman film is two people are used to count westward to the end of the pavement on the SW corner of Elm and Houston. These people are Howard Brennan and a character I call the Railroad Man who has on what appears to be a railroad cap and bib overalls. In Z 101 we have a count of 13 people. Z 101 was used to count people simply because it was a clearer frame close to Z 132. It is a little difficult to count people here. After the Zapruder Gap which begins at Z 133 we have this count in Z 136, which is a clearer frame than 133. We have about 16 people here ending with Robert Croft. The Elsie Dorman film shows a radically different scene than what is shown in the Zapruder film. 10+ people shown in Dorman are not shown in Zapruder. In this Dorman Mosaic we see 24 people west of our starting point of Brennan / Railroad Man. As indicated earlier this mosaic does not show everyone. A page from a book entitled, The Complete Unraveling of the JFK assassination, shows an extra 5 women not shown in the mosaic. This is one of the reasons I think John Costella is right when he mentioned he thought the Zapruder film might be built from the ground up.

Davidson says, "My conversion for 1mph is and always has been 1.47ft per sec." If so why are your numbers different from the numbers of the internet calculator?

Chris Davidson said, “John Butler, there are many ways to "skin a cat", we choose different methods.” “Willis had to run 192.5ft to his location on Elm St and the limo had to travel 229.8ft from Willis' last photo.” “The time equals 17.84 seconds discounting any delay(missing frames) created by the Towner and Z133 splice. 192.5ft/17.84 sec = 7.34mph 229.8/17.84sec = 8.76 mph” The difference between 18 seconds (a later calculation) and 17.84 to cover the distance from where the limo was at in Z frame 132 and where it is shown in Z frame 133 is insignificant. In comparison from an internet calculator we find different math for the results of feet per second equals mph from the above calculation: Something’s wrong with the math. We will use Davidson’s math calculations: 192.5 / 10.73 feet per second = 18.21 seconds for Phil *** The distance of 229.8 for the limo’s run to the end of the Z Gap 133 frame should be shorter in comparison to Phil’s run. Looking at these frames, which are about the same, the presidential limousine has passed the NW corner of the Court House. That will take off about 100 feet from the run of the limo. This is the distance of the Court House on the Houston side. 129.8 / 12.85 feet per second = 10.10 seconds for the presidential limousine. Even if you use the figure 229.8 feet for the distance the results are 229.8 / 12.85 = 17.8 seconds. Which is about the same as Phil’s run. They would be arriving at the same time. Once again, a comparison: 192.5 / 10.73 feet per second = 18.21 seconds for Phil 229.8 -100 =129.8 / 12.85 feet per second = 10.10 seconds for the presidential limousine. These calculations show that there is reasonable doubt that Phil Willis didn’t make it to the SW corner of Elm and Houston as shown in the Zapruder film and the Towner film. There is a possibility that Linda took her father’s photos since she made it in time.

Yep. I see where I went wrong. The 157.5 feet is at 9.3 mph and the 120 feet is traveled at 11.3 mph. The 18 seconds for the Zapruder Gap is the best estimate.

This is good stuff. I'll have to change my mind several times. “The cycle cop travels approx 120ft @7.21sec@18.3fps = 11.3mph average. The best distances I arrive at for the rest are in the graphic. Since the white car doesn't appear in the last frame of z1-132 (big variable) the limo is at least : 120 + 20 + 157.5 - 10ft overlap = 287.5ft behind the cycle cop at z132 within the graphic. I don't see a problem with Myers applied average speed to the limo on Houston St at 9.3mph. Someone can check that if so inclined. 9.3mph = 13.67 ft per sec 157.5ft/13.67 = 11.5 sec + 7.21 sec = approx 18.71sec at least, ahead of the limo.” This is fascinating stuff. Let me first concentrate on this statement: “120 + 20 + 157.5 - 10ft overlap = 287.5ft behind the cycle cop at z132 within the graphic.” This puts the presidential limousine in almost the exact area of Altgens 5 or as you shown in a Muchmore scene (I believe Muchmore) at the same time the Advance Motorcycle Officer is at Z frame 132. Once again this is fascinating stuff. With this statement one can time almost exactly the length of the Zapruder Gap. Based on this reasoning, the frames 132 and 133 show the Advance Motorcyle Officer in Z frame 132 in about the same position as the presidential limousine in Z frame 133. The red line in each frame goes to the two Ladies in Black. They are in almost exactly the same positions unless the ladies have moved slightly in Z frame 133. If we assume this to be true then at 287.5 feet distance between the two divided by the average speed of 9.3 mph / 13.67 feet per sec we have 21.03 seconds. You say: “157.5ft/13.67 = 11.5 sec + 7.21 sec = approx 18.71sec at least, ahead of the limo” Where did I go wrong in my thinking of about 3 seconds? You seem to have nailed this down well. Either way is a good estimate in my opinion. Is the difference in time involved with the 20 ft and -10 feet involved first calculation? I guess I will have to give up the Joseph,s estimate of 14 seconds. And, either go back to my crude estimate and use yours also with perhaps 18-21 seconds for the Zapruder Gap. 18-21 seconds is a good timing of the Gap. This allows a little more time for various people to get to the SW corner in Z frame 133.

This is interesting work calculating the speed of the presidential vehicle in the turn in the intersection. It could help in a problem I've always wondered about. Your analysis would be appreciated if you find this interesting enough to work on. I don't think you can sync the Elsie Dorman film with the after the Zapruder Gap Zapruder film, Martin, and Bell. Elsie said she quit filming when the limousine turned into intersection. This occurs before Zapruder, post gap, and before Martin and Bell film the area. All this is sort of background. What I am really interested in is where is the presidential limousine in Z frame 132 and where is the p. limo in Z frame 133? Your analysis above can greatly help in figuring this out. Where is the limo on Houston St. in Z 132? And, where is the limo on Elm in Z 133? I think figuring out where the limo in Z 133 is in relation to the SW corner of the TSBD would be helpful and then you could work backward to where the limo is on Houston St. in Z 132. I once calculated the time in the Zapruder Gap to be abound 21-22 seconds. David Josephs explained how he calculated it at 14 seconds and I thought that was a more reasonable effort. My crude estimate was based on the Advance Motorcycle Officer taking 7 seconds / 18 frames per second to get to frame 132. That is an average speed for the 7 seconds. So, I thought the other elements of the motorcade would on the average do about the same in passing through the intersection before Z 133. Obviously, one can't do that based on the slowing down of the p. limo in the turn. You have nicely figured the speed in the turn. You can see that the limo has not passed the lamppost and the R L Thornton sign. So, it must be about even with the SW corner of the TSBD. If this is interesting, can you work back from there to where the limo would be on Houston St. in Z 132? And, tie down where it really is in z 133?

"As it stands right now, you've made quite a good argument for the film not being altered." and, "Your response would lead me to believe that you don't believe in zfilm alteration." Talk about spin doctoring? Black is white and white is black. My whole argument about the many problems with Z frame 157 is about film alteration. Are we up to 10 content problems in Z 157 now? Answer some of my questions rather than making personal attacks. Those personal attacks just make you guy look foolish and stupid with not having an adequate response. I know I am getting through to you guys when you start up the personal attacks again in a major way. Gentlemen, and I use that term derisively, it is like water off a duck's back. You can't defend the undefendable. Mitcham, are you on the same boat as Bulman? "I won't be drawn to comment on that statement. "

Mitcham, Why should I re-read Davidson's post? I didn't agree with it in the first place. Since, you guys like to avoid answering questions you find uncomfortable or unanswerable can you answer this for me directly. Do you think the Zapruder film is a true and accurate record that reflects the reality of Dealey Plaza? If not, can you provide me with examples where the Zapruder film is false? In the matter of Chris Barstow. He started this thread on May 25th about 2 weeks ago. I don't think he could "reproduce it". My interpretation of what he said is that he would be unlikely to further his argument and dropped out of the thread. No matter how you and your ilk bluster this topic is about the Zapruder film and the alteration of it. OBTW, about the film splice in Z frame 157 resulting from a torn frame. Any fool can see that the frame has been spliced. All you have to do is look at Phil's long leg not being joined correctly. There are other splices involved. The splice involving Phil's leg does not run straight across the frame. It follows the contour of the presidential limo. I believe that is significant sign of photo editing. I know a few things about film splicing and torn film. My brother, as a teenager, ran the projection booth in the theater in our small town for several years. I often helped him out. It was the only way I could get to sit in the balcony area. White people were not allowed to sit there unless they were working the projection booth. The balcony was reserved for black people during the days of segregation. The films we received for the theater were generally used in other theaters across the country and came to us fairly well used. Film tearing was common and you had to be speedy to get the film spliced and the movie going again. A two man splicing team was faster. We generally cut straight across the film frames and spliced those together. I bring this up to tell you and others I don't see any sign of the film being torn. I do see signs of multiple splicing there. See the red lines. I asked where was the reference for frame 157 being torn and spliced. I didn't get an answer. I also asked were films 156, 158, and 159 torn and also spliced. They show the same long leg. I didn't get an answer on that either. I guess I am just an awful person who doesn't listen and learn. I think I will add another content problem is the list of content problems in Z 157.

Mitcham and Bulman, You gentlemen have not shown yourselves very well during the course of this thread. What have you contributed other than despiteful, personal attacks? At least Davidson has made presentations based on what he considers intelligent and rational arguments. I find his assumptions and work questionable. This topic is about alterations in the Zapruder film. Chris Barstow was attempting to debunk things that John Costella said 16 years ago. He was immediately answered by David Healey and then dropped out of the debate. Go back and read what was said. David Healey: " Ya gonna have to make a better argument than this. Who is Barnes, why *his* footage, and where can his footage be found, the camera and lens Barnes imagery used, the media recorded on? In you example are you using footage where pin cushion distortion has been removed? Thanks ahead of time for your input. Here's a link too Dr. John Costella's presentation at the University of Minnesota in 2003 regarding his Z-film analysis with his 'proofs', the entire presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1B3_sICTAc" Chris Barstow said: "I don't have the info on the camera Barnes used but I wanted just to point out that every copy of that image I have seen is very distorted. It is strange just how much change there is in the Ytube video. I will have to reproduce the situation in miniature and see if I can duplicate the change of angle. ( I usually do that before posting, oh well)If I can't reproduce it I will consider that I made a mistake, and the change in vanishing point perspective I theorized would cause the change of angle is not enough to even measure. Thanks for the input."

Davidson, You are certainly entitled to your thoughts, statements, and research. So, you are saying the Zapruder film is a true record and unaltered? Are you saying things occurred as depicted in the Zapruder contrary to all the evidence presented here and all the evidence presented by others?

Bulman, I so wanted to write Bullman, but Jim DiEugenio took me to task on that kind of behavior. Mitcham says it's childish and for once he is right. Past #51! So what! We are still on topic. The topic is whether or not the Zapruder film is a fake. John Costella used the leaning lamppost as an indicator of the falseness of the Zapruder film. Chris was out to debunk that. I suggested there was better material to debate the falseness of the Zapruder film. Other films/photos either back up or confound the Zapruder film and need to be discussed. That's what we are doing. Do you understand now? Stir and shaken? To many references to adult beverages over the years. Was that your problem when you replied to Jim Eugenio with your Q comment?

Davidson, "Although there are other deceptions(distance traveled/frame rate) created by this graphic, the overall speed is within 1/2mph of what it should be." Why publish this information if it has a deceptive quality. How deceptive is the speed on Houston (9.3 mph) and the speed in the turn onto Elm (6.8mph)? Be sure to include the time of the Zapruder Gap in your calculations. I have estimated 21 or 22 seconds for the Gap. David Josephs did 14 seconds which is reasonable. In Zapruder Willis turns up after frame 133. Some people say he is in Dorman. I can't find him there. Your presentation of Phil and Linda running down the walk to the SW corner defeats your whole argument. If you show the whole frame or do one of questionable gifs based on data from 4 or 5 seconds or 70 frames of the Martin film you will see the limo is there when your version of Phil Willis is on the walkway. You will see the limousine is already on Elm past the TSBD doorway approaching the SW corner of the TSBD when you have Phil and Linda still running for the SW corner on the walkway. Dorman shows both Linda and Rosemary arriving long before that. How in the world can you time the limousine in the Towner Cartoon? The films is a fake. Way to many frames have splices and there are missing frames. Someone once said you see one frame per second. I didn't notice that and didn't see that. It shows Dallas Policeman on the steps of the TSBD as the limo passes the TSBD doorway. If I my memory serves it takes the Advance Motorcycle Policemen in the first 132 frames of Zapruder about 7.3 seconds (based on dividing the frames by 18 and timing it with a watch- 7.2 if you divide by 18.3) to travel down Elm before he vanishes. Can't remember whether that was Glen McBride or not. McBride had time to stop and let Mary Moorman take a Polaroid. I think it was Weigman who said the caravan was traveling at about 20-40 mph. I'm not sure about Weigman, but do believe it was one of the Camera Car guys. I believe Weigman said he couldn't leave the vehicle until it stopped indicating it was traveling relatively fast. Your graphic is about the speed of the limo as it makes it turn into Elm Street. But, Greer didn't slow down that much. Hence, his wild turn onto Elm Street. What was the Limo's speed on Houston Street? That is the key idea for timing Phil's run not the speed of the turn onto Elm Street.

More "horse carp" from Bulman. At least Unger and Davidson are using data to try and refute what I am saying. Bristow really hasn't stayed in the argument. They are not making personal attacks as you are. And, this comes from a fellow that consistently makes dumber than a rock statements. Remember your recent comment, your Q statement to DiEugenio as an example.

In response to the post above. No. 1 can't be seen in order to distinguish who that might be. It is like the two men in suits as Allman and Ford, any guy with a bald spot could be Willis. If it is Willis he is to late the presidential limousine is passing or about to. Martin and Bell filmed at the same time, the same scenes. No. 2 the bald headed guy is not bald. You are seeing the arms of the man across the street on Elm. The one who looks like he is beating a drum. Look at the frame from your gif I posted. What is more disconcerting is the black cut out man. Some features of that person should be shown, but are not. Could it be the editors didn't have time or energy to put in someone if details to be seen there. Really, 4 and 3 from Martin is really shameless. Post the rest of the frame! You will see the presidential limousine is passing. Study that 4 or 5 seconds or about 70 frames in Martin and you will see that. Besides, Linda and Rosemary, according to Elsie Dorman were already there on the SW corner before this Martin scene. Phil is not in Elsie Dorman. Even in Zapruder we see Linda and Rosemary running around the corner almost the same as it is shown in Dorman. OBTW, Prayer Man is taking photos of the presidential party.

I don't want to get accused of having an over heated imagination. So, I am not going to say watch the fellow indicated by the red arrow in a run of the Dunkel gif. He looks very spastic as if he is desperately trying to do something as the limo approaches. He looks like he is beating a drum. Or, is he taking photos and winding in the next frame? The image is so blurred you can't say who it is even though you have thoughts on who that might be. You really can't say this image matches Prayer Man in the Martin film.

Even with Dunkel's good Bell gif their is not enough there to declare that is Phil Willis or anyone else. The man running not the black cutout isn't bald enough to be Phil Willis. What is see as a bald spot is light colored objects on Elm.

Is this what you are talking about? Those two objects in the Elm Street air just seem to be film blemishes or faults. The arrow pointing towards the window indicates another film problem blemish. In some frames it looks like someone is shooting a rifle in others it is just random blemishes. People have noticed that before. This is a good shot for an old problem. There is no Officer Joe Marshall Smith under the Court Records windows as he said he was.

Davidson, "Start with this path first. He's 200ft away. 200ft/17.84 sec = 7.62mph I would think that the latter part of Bronson would show him running towards the steps, but I don't see anyone over there. The only person we see down this corridor is bald spot man in other films." I used a very similar idea years ago to indicate Phil couldn't have run that fast to get to the SW corner in order to film Kennedy. 200 feet is also the estimate I used. I'll see if I can find that somewhere in all the files I have on the assassination. Might take a while. If he ran at 7.62 mph and the limousine was moving at 11 mph (most everyone's estimate) and the limousine had at least a 60 + feet head start who got there first? Some witnesses estimated the speed of the limo could have been as high as 20-40 mph. Another problem I have is this statement. What corner is Phil talking about and what corner are you talking about in your post. Apparently, the only corner he is talking about is the SW corner of Elm and Houston.

There is a huge problem is Davidson's assumption that Betzner answers the Bronson Gap problem. There are only 10 people visible in the Mannequin Row area which has 19 in Zapruder. If you say that people are missing then you are saying that the Betzner photo is a fake. That it has photo edited. You also have the same problem with Willis. It has 10 people also visible. There are 19 people visible in that area in Zapruder.

Andrej, Don't know whether you have this or not. But, I ran across some interesting information working on something else: "Based on their measurements, the average shoulder width for American women was 14.4 inches (36.7 cm). Based on the shoulder measurements of 7,476 men aged 20 years and older taken during the same time period, the average shoulder width of men in the United States was 16.1 inches (41.1 cm).Oct 26, 2018" If you don't have this it might be a handy way to separate men and women. Or, at least give an indication of gender that can be used with other characteristics.

Davidson, Are you saying Zapruder and Bronson are correct rather than Willis and Betzner? Has Willis and Betzner been faked? I can't see any signs of photo editing in Willis or Betzner. I don't see any signs of photo editing in Bronson either. But, I see plenty in Zapruder. And, so do others. Above, your angle of Zapruder's filming doesn't match Betzner or Willis. It seems extreme with Zapruder placed to far to the west. These distances are about dead on with what I originally thought. "Lateral distance from Stemmons sign to scarf lady = 32.5ft Lateral distance from Stemmons sign to light post = 73.75ft" I have to change my original estimate of 70 feet for the distance from the Stemmons sign to the lamppost to approximately 60 feet in the Bronson frame. 30 feet for Mannequin Row and 30 feet for the gap to the Stemmons sign in Bronson. This was based on measuring shoulder widths. See above.