John Butler

"Mannequin Row has 19 people in it. I always assumed that people are about 2 feet wide at the shoulders. If you do the math then Mannequin Row is about 38-40 feet in width. I can't believe these calculations based on this internet information: "Based on their measurements, the average shoulder width for American women was 14.4 inches (36.7 cm). Based on the shoulder measurements of 7,476 men aged 20 years and older taken during the same time period, the average shoulder width of men in the United States was 16.1 inches (41.1 cm).Oct 26, 2018" I average the male and female shoulder widths and came up with 15.25. I then multiplied it for 19 people. This came out to 289.75 inches or 24.15 feet. There is a few inches in between people there and will add more to that figure. But, that is not much wider than the presidential limousine. It is closer to 30 feet than 40 feet." I'm not real happy with this post. For years I have used the figure of roughly 40 feet to describe the distance between lamppost on Elm near the R L Thornton sign and the Stemmons sign. My shoulders are 20 inches and I have never considered myself broad shouldered. 16 inches for men and 14 inches for women. Oh well, that will give a closer estimate for the distance between the two points. Maybe, a closer look will turn up something different. There are 16 women in line at 14.1 average inches per shoulders per woman. That is 16 x 14.1 = 225.6 inches. Let’s add an extra 2 inches between ladies for 32 more inches. That totals 257.6 divided by 12 or 21.4 feet. For the men that is 16.1 x 3 = 48.3 inches and 6 inches extra for separation between individual. That amounts to 54.3 divided by 12 = 4.5 feet. Add the women and men together and we have 25.9 feet for the line. Throw in an extra 5 feet (just a guess here) to account for a random variable distance between people and we have 30.9 feet. Not a bad 1st estimate of 30 feet according to this math.

Another Dealey Plaza mystery.

Mannequin Row has 19 people in it. I always assumed that people are about 2 feet wide at the shoulders. If you do the math then Mannequin Row is about 38-40 feet in width. I can't believe these calculations based on this internet information: "Based on their measurements, the average shoulder width for American women was 14.4 inches (36.7 cm). Based on the shoulder measurements of 7,476 men aged 20 years and older taken during the same time period, the average shoulder width of men in the United States was 16.1 inches (41.1 cm).Oct 26, 2018" I average the male and female shoulder widths and came up with 15.25 inches. I then multiplied it for 19 people. This came out to 289.75 inches or 24.15 feet. There is a few inches in between people there and will add more to that figure. But, that is not much wider than the presidential limousine, SS-100-X at 21.25 feet. It is closer to 30 feet than 40 feet then for Mannequin Row. So, a 30 foot Mannequin Row and a 30 foot gap between the woman in the blue scarf and the Stemmons sign is 60 feet. It still doesn't look that way in Zapruder, Betzner, and Willis. Anybody think this is strange?

"Marilyn: Looking for them. My parents had gone around the end, if you're familiar with Bronson's picture, the jacket on his book. It shows my mother. She's in a white coat with a blue scarf tied around her head. My daddy's following her. They went around the south end of the center of Dealey Plaza. My husband had gone up the sidewalk, and the two kids following him, and I was stuck there in the last window of the pavilion in Dealey Plaza by the reflecting pool. Well, I didn't know where they were, and I set out to find ...the Roaches. " So, what's the point. This is well known information. Marilyn has some creditability problems on her location.

That can't be Phil Willis over there by the monument. Here's my reasoning: No. 1: You can't see through him as you do in Muchmore. No. 2: He has a normal appearing head. In Muchmore that his head is flat, truncated. No. 3: He has normal appearing legs. His right leg is not an enormous leg. No. 4: He doesn't appear to be two places at once as seen in Muchmore and Skaggs. With this kind of evidence it can't be Phil.

Is this the same time we see Phil in the street blocking the view as the presidential limousine goes by in Muchmore. Oh, can't be! Here he is in Skaggs on the sidewalk by the lamppost filming. That would make him in two places at once!

Where is the perspective problem here? This is roughly 30 seconds after the assassination. A crowd of 19 people would not have had time to disperse. OBTW, notice that there is not a group of 10 railroad men and 1 policeman on the Triple Underpass. That gives the lie to other films/photos in Dealey Plaza.

Where is the perspective problem here? This could be about 20 or 30 seconds, maybe less, (based on the Bell) film) when Ike Altgens walked across Elm towards the Stemmons sign. Remember Ike is a speedy devil capable of fast movement.

Where is the perspective problem here? This is equivalent to Zapruder prior to the Zapruder Gap. Probably just before the Zapruder Gap.

Do you ever wonder why these people have been identified from the back and not the front? You can’t see their facial features. Are they being identified from their clothing? Body size? What? Where they said they were? Lots of luck with that. Betzner and Willis photographed this group from the SW corner of Elm and Houston. Why not use those photos? They show their faces. Don’t the faces match the bodies? To the point. Robin Unger claims there is a large gap of about 30 feet between the last woman in line with the blue scarf and the Stemmons sign. He says you can see this in the Bronson frame. And, that is correct there is about 30 feet between the woman with the scarf and the Stemmons sign in the Bronson frame. How did I get 30 feet? I measured the on-screen image of the presidential limousine as 6.5mm. It can be more of less according to your screen. That 6.5mm represents 21.25 feet which is the length of the presidential limousine. I then measured the distance between the woman with the blue scarf to the Stemmons sign and that was 9.5mm. The difference is less than 50% or about 30 feet. Which is a rough estimate, but will serve to make he point. The Bronson frame shows only about 10 of the 19 people in Mannequin Row. Extending east that would add another 21 feet for the other 9 people making the distance between the lamppost and the Stemmons sign about 70 feet. Does the line of people to the Stemmons sign look like an area of 70 feet in Zapruder. In Betzner and Willis we don’t see this gap. Unger Claims this is due to perspective and camera angle. I don’t see any room here for a 30 or so foot gap. The camera angle does not appear to be that extreme. The size of the people appears right for about a distance of 40 feet and not 70 feet. We have the same problem here in Willis. The camera angle is not extreme and there is no 30 foot gap as demonstrated by the size of the people. What do we make of this? Is Unger and the Bronson frame right and is Betzner and Willis wrong? Is Zapruder and Unger right and there is 30 or so feet between the sign and the woman with the blue scarf? Or, is Betzner and Willis wrong? I will be interested to see what warped thinking they come up with to sort this out.

The number of people on the SW corner of Elm and Houston changes from the Elsie Dorman film to the Zapruder film. Here is the method I used to count people. It will be the same for the Elsie Dorman film. The Elsie Dorman film shows more than twice as many people there. Over 20 as vs. 10 in the Zapruder film. This mosaic is not entirely accurate. If you count frame by frame you will come up with about 26 people. Particularly if you count the group of women see in the next photo: The fifth woman in this barely seen may be Linda Willis the "mysterious camera woman".

Sorry Robin, I only pretended this was "good work" because I knew it would be useful later on as reference. It is good work in a way if you like photo editing. Really! Where is Linda Willis, the "mysterious camera woman" as you call her. She is not shown running in front of Rosemary. How in the world could you put phony looking images of the Mayor's Car and the Queen Mary in the Dorman film at that location. Elsie Dorman said she quit filming as the presidential limousine was about to turn onto Elm. The Mayor's Car wasn't released to travel down Elm until the presidential part was about to leave Dealey Plaza. The Mayor's Car with Mrs. Cabell is the heart of timing of Weigman and Couch / Darnell in the Prayer Man debate. Her vehicle was stopped at the intersection just after the shooting and would not be anywhere nearby when Elsie was filming. The Mayor's Car was further up Houston when Elsie was filming. Weigman does show the Mayor's Car in that location, but that is long after the Dorman film. If you look at the Dorman Mosaic you will see that the Mayor's Car is still on Main Street when the presidential limousine is traveling down Houston. It will be a while before it gets to Elm. BTW, there is new and good news in the Prayer Man debate. See Bart Kamp. People should pay more attention to Bart Kamp.

Robin Unger Super Member Members 3,783 posts Gender:Male Location:Australia Report post Posted 11 hours ago Mannequin row does not extend down to the Stemmons sign ? it only extends down to the woman wearing the blue scarf. ( see Bronson slide ) Quote The photo editors did think that. They made sure it was seen in several films/photos. Here's Betzner! That is fairly lame Robin. You are making my point.

We have another stunning piece of artwork from Davidson that doesn't make sense. and, Or, maybe it is the same guy floating around in the air supposedly under the trees in another wonderful Davidson gif. OBTW, thanks for showing Phil the Flat-headed See Through Man again. He doesn't get enough coverage.

Mannequin Row: Another content problem in the Zapruder Film, in Zapruder frame 157 and others, is another example of the fraudulence found in the fake Zapruder film. Where’s the evidence that this group of people are a photo editing fraud. There are 5 films / photos that show this area is different during the assassination than what you see in the Zapruder Frame. This evidence contradicts and confounds the Zapruder film clearly pointing out this part of the Zapruder film is a fraud. Mary Moorman’s Polaroid #3, the McBride Polaroid The Charles Bronson film Dick Bothun photo The Malcom Couch film The Mark Bell film Mary Moorman’s Polaroid #3, the McBride Polaroid: The Charles Bronson film: Dick Bothun photo: The Malcom Couch film: The Mark Bell film:

Paul, I am sorry that you misunderstood what I was saying. Are you saying that the only Zapruder frame that was torn and spliced is frame 157? Or, are frames 156, 158, and 159 also torn and spliced? I have never heard that from anyone. The two Davidson frames, darkened and blurred, were not done by the Hawkeye works as originals. The ones below were. Are these four frames torn and then spliced? If so, I have never heard of that.

Paul, I am sorry that you misunderstood what I was saying. Are you saying that the only Zapruder frame that was torn and spliced is frame 157? Or, are frames 156, 158, and 159 also torn and spliced? I have never heard that from anyone. The two Davidson frames of frames 157 and 158, blacked and blurred, were not done by the Hawkeye works. The ones below were. Here is the set from 156 to 159. Are they all torn and spliced?

Paul, There is free software on the net titled Easy Gif Animator. It is simple and easy to use. With it you can look at the individual frames of a .gif. And, you can determine whether a newspaper is really a hat. In this occasion the newspaper was a hat. There are 43 frames in the .gif. It seems that there is an alteration of blurred and clearer images. But, that may just be the way the frames turned out. However, Z frames 157 and 158 appear to be altered to suppress the image of Phil Willis.

"Perspective and comprehension." I wish you were more honest with yours. IMO, Phil Willis is not a creditable witness. The Muchmore frame tells you so. Your inclusion of Phil's testimony before the WC even makes it worse. He says he raced to the intersection of Elm and Houston and arrived on the SW corner of Elm and Houston before the presidential limousine. He doesn't say it here, but his daughters said they traveled with him to the intersection side by side. Later I think he says that. The Muchmore frame makes that very doubtful. Phil Willis was a WWII veteran with a disability pension from the VA. I don't know what his injuries were, but the VA does not give you a disability for nothing. The Zapruder film, the Elsie Dorman film, and this Muchmore film are the basis for believing that Phil Willis is not a creditable witness. You emphasize the statement where Phil races down Houston Street to arrive on Elm before the presidential vehicle gets there. You totally ignore what he said just prior to that. He said he took a photo from the rear as the limousine was approaching the turn unto Elms Street. Do you understand what "approaching the turn they were to make on Elm Street" means? These statements are not creditable in and of themselves. Houston Street is something like 220 feet in length from the Houston and Main intersection and the intersection of Houston and Elm. The Muchmore frame shows the limo past the Court House on the way to the intersection. Phil is on the NW corner of Houston and Main. In a race between the two who do you think will arrive there first with Phil giving the limo a possible 100 feet or 120 feet head start? Do you think he will get there first or even in his foolish statement before the limousine arrives on Elm Street. "I wonder if there is a deceptive gif to follow with someone on the run as the limo turns onto Elm St. hmmm" Go ahead, I would love to see what you do with that. Robin Unger's work shows you what the problem is on Phil Willis' run to the Elm Street corner.

Is this the return of the old Michael Clark I first saw on the forum?

Davidson, You seem to be losing focus and doing a lot of sloppy .gifs lately. I recommend taking a vacation from which you can come back refreshed and clean up the deceptive .gifs you have been posting lately.

DiEugenio, I often don't agree with you from time to time. But, I always read your posts because they are always interesting, always informative, and I learn a lot from them. IMO, Kennedy's affirmative action policies are one of the reasons he was murdered in Dallas.

Ron, Should I classify this as "horse carp"?

Robin, This is good work. If you don't mind I will keep a copy of this for reference. It is about here with the placement of the presidential limousine that Elsie Dorman said she stopped filming. I don't know whether that is true or not because there are blurred images of policemen at the end of the film. I hate to be a nitpicker, but an enlargement of SS-100-X in the first image of the limo does not show the occupants of the limousine correctly. It is a better view than most frames showing the limousine on Houston Street. Most of those images have the occupants of the limousine blacked out.