John Butler

Thanks Jim, I have to admit I blew it on the alleged 300 Paine photos. I missed it entirely. Well, at that point I wasn't really looking. I took a look at the photo descriptions and they seemed to not match very well and I knew it would be a long and tedious job to match photos with descriptions. So, I thought I would do what I could with the photos. And, skipped what I should have done in the first place. One of the faults there is laziness. At least one of the photos identified as a Paine photo wasn't. I remembered the photo I thought was Gerry Hemming and remembered that Hemming in the Philippines would not be in the time frame of Michael Paine being in the Army. It is a Marine photo regardless whether it is Hemming or not. As are many others. The Keesler photo post and the rifle range post were to tie in with a study of the Army photos. Obviously, that's not going to work out now. Those Army photos, the biggest part, are hard to determine where they were at due to low quality. One can look at the vegetation and say yeah that is northern, cold climate and that is warm climate. Cold climate being Japan and Korea. Warm climate would be Taiwan and the Philippines. Oswald did say he served with the US Army in Japan and the Philippines. The MAC-11 unit was originally from Korea and had moved to Atsugi, Japan. For many years they retained part of their unit in Korea and I believe (though not certain) that all of the elements in Korea had moved to Atsugi by Oswald's time. Some of those Army photos look like Korean landscape. Where did Michael Paine serve in the Army? Here's a bit of info on Michael. He is in a forum thread when he died at 89. Personal life[edit] "In 1957, he married Ruth Avery Hyde in Pennsylvania. They had two children:[1] Lynn (b. 1959) and Christopher (b. 1961).[2] In 1959, they relocated to 2525 West Fifth Street in Irving, Texas, a suburb of Dallas.[2] when Paine began work at a Bell Helicopter facility in Fort Worth. One issue is whether the Minox camera found in the Paine garage belonged to Lee Oswald or to Michael Paine. Another issue is what activities Lee Oswald and Michael Paine had in common, given Michael Paine's statement to Frontline (Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?, PBS) that he and Lee Oswald shared unspecified interests. In late September 1962, Paine and his wife Ruth separated, Ruth asked him to have his personal belongings moved out of the house by the time she got back home from traveling around the United States that summer. According to Michael, it was not he, but Ruth who pushed to legally end their marriage. As their divorce made its way through the legal system until it ended in 1970, the Paines continued to see films at the theater together, and their Madrigal singing as a couple continued. Michael kept his own apartment in Arington, Texas, while Ruth remained with Lynn and Christopher in the Irving home. In the end, the divorce was amicable, and Michael kept a very favorable view of Ruth.[3]" Would he have left his Army photos with Ruth? (8) Barbara Lamonica, Coalition on Political Assassination's Conference (21st October, 1995) "One wonders why someone intending to commit a crime would allow such items to be stored in another's garage, instead of destroying the incriminating evidence. Michael Paine's testimony is used to confirm that Lee had a rifle, and indeed it had been stored in their garage - in retrospect, of course, because Michael Paine said he never realized it was a rifle... It's hard to believe that a man like Michael Paine, who had been in combat artillery in Korea, and then in the Army Reserves for six years, could not recognize the feel of a rifle. Especially since it belonged to someone who he considered a person who advocated violence. I think maybe Michael Paine is lying here. He either knew it was a rifle, and is choosing to hide that fact, or maybe it wasn't a rifle at all... in either case he distances himself from the situation by saying he just didn't realize what was going on. And this is characteristic of the Paines all along - they try to distance themselves from Oswald." This may be why some of the photos look like Korea. But, there is a difference in Korean photos from the Korean War and photos taken at a later time. The photos in the 201 do not show any violence from the war, like dead people and destroyed villages and cities. They are mostly of tent compounds. I don't think I am going to give up on this. I'll simply have to do more grunt work which my lazy side tries to get out of that kind of work.

Over 300 photos belong to the Paines? Wasn't all these photos found in Oswald's sea bags or duffel bags. There were 2 bags I believe. How did Paine photos get mixed up with Oswald photos? I don't believe it. Some maybe, but not 300. I have a good memory for paintings and photos. I must have lost that, because every time I go through this collection it seems to change. I see something new. I have been through these photos about 10 or 12 times for that reason. Something new or the clarity of some pictures seem to change. Poor memory I guess. There are photos of Michael Paine and I would assume Ruth was the photographer. The army photos? Paine or Oswald? I think Oswald. 300 photos? They belong to the Paines? Then why were they included in this collection? Why did the FBI include 300 Paine photos in this collection? Why did Oswald have possession of those photos? How could Marina identify Paine photos? Or, photos taken by an Oswald when not in Minsk? This really does not trash my notions that the two Oswalds were in Minsk from time to time. Lee first, not Harvey. I base that on there were no scars, suicide or gunshot on Harvey's left elbow and wrist. The autopsy doctor concerned with Harvey measured scars as small as 1/4 inch, but did not mention those scars. The first Oswald into Russia didn't speak Russian very well and would have been found out if he did from his first entry in Oct., 1959 to January on arrival in Minsk. I would guess that during this time that particular Oswald was heavily interrogated. Harvey did speak fluently and would not have been able to hide that initially. I know there is evidence for Lee being in America at this time early on in the Russian adventure. The evidence is not really that conclusive that it was actually Lee mentioned by witnesses. It could have been a double. It could be Lee depending on when Harvey replaced him in Minsk. There are photos of Lee (or photos I believe to be Lee) in Minsk or some area of Russia early on. There doesn't seem to be many once Marina shows up. Were just anything that didn't fit get assigned to the Paines? 300 photos is shocking and unbelievable. Ruth and Michael Paine in the Army? That kills the army analysis of Oswalds I was planning. I guess Micahel Paine was also in Japan and the Philipinnes in the army. Can J. Edgar and crew, CIA Michael and Ruth Paine, and Marina be trusted? This photo on the left is classified as a Paine photo. I would guess of Michael in the Army. It is actually a photo of Marines in the Philippines. It may be a photo of Gerry Hemming who was photographed by Oswald in other photos. It will take time to go through and look at others. How can you tell? Army guys during this time are wearing the Ridgeway cap or hat. The Ridgeway hat is very distinctive. They blouse their boots and Marines don't. That's how you can tell the Marine photos from the Army photos. Army guys also wear their rank insignia and have patches on their left shoulder and if one has combat experience another patch on the right shoulder. I'll stop here this is beginning to sound like someone defending a weak position.

B.A, I don't know anything about who debunked this photo. It always bothered me and I finally figured out why. I've always thought this photo was Robert Oswald rather than Lee. The bottom part may be an army guy and the top a marine guy. That's based on the bloused boot. If so, they have done an amazing job of putting the two parts together which leads me to suspect what I just wrote isn't so. Anyway, this photo raises doubt.

Steve, Jack White is hard to disagree with, but I do on some things from time to time. The 3rd photo in the top line marked "Russian LHO" is Lee Oswald the original Lee Harvey Oswald. I would like to see the original of this photo. I would add to Jack's description with things noticed from other photos. Lee has a wider or broader nose, lacks noticeable earlobes, his hair is generally curlier than Harvey's and was balding faster. Both Oswalds have what I call a weak chin. It is because of composites and face masks that it is difficult to separate one from the other. The 5th or last photo in the top line is who I call Alek Oswald, the third LHO in Russia. Who this guy was is anybody's guess. He is the short Oswald said to be about 5'2 or 5'4 by Russian witnesses. Jack says, and he is right, this particular photo looks nothing like Harvey Oswald the man shot at the Dallas Police Station. There are very few photos of Lee Harvey Oswald left in the photo record. One is from the Civil Air Patrol that I posted on earlier. Another is the class year book photo in which Oswald is talking to a young lady. There are some others in Russia, but they are arguable. When on that November day, Lee Oswald got on that plane in Dallas for a flight to Roswell Air Base he vanished from history. The CIA and FBI did a good job of removing him from the photographic record. The written record was harder to do and there is more evidence to support a Harvey and Lee on the Harvey and Lee website than what one can gather from the photographic record. You can almost always recognize a photo of Harvey Oswald, even when a baby, by his most identifiable characteristic. And, this characteristic was used by photo alterers to say this is for sure Harvey Oswald (Lee Harvey Oswald). The artist who did this magazine cover rightly and correctly identified the dominate distinguishing feature of Harvey Oswald. That is the two crook or bend characteristic of the upper rim of his left ear. Look closely at the mag cover: As I said this identifier is not fool proof since there are so many composite photos showing what purports to be Harvey Oswald (Lee Harvey Oswald).

Jim, At this point I am trying to do a study of the Oswalds in the military. The two posts I have made so far are related to what I am actually doing in this study. It may not seem that way at this point, but they are. They will tie in directly. I am a bit confused on something on Harvey and Lee. This is it: "In the fall of 1956, while HARVEY Oswald and Allen Felde were stationed at San Diego, LEE Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility at El Toro, CA, 10 miles south of Camp Pendleton. It was in El Toro that Sergeant Wallace Ransberger first met Private First Class LEE Oswald, and a year later associated with him at Atsugi, Japan. Ransberger and LEE Oswald were assigned to the same unit and their duties were to furnish repair parts for vehicles and generators. In early 1957 Sergeant Donald Goodwin was assigned to Camp Pendleton and supervised a group of 20 men in the 5th Marine division, one of whom was radio communicator LEE Oswald, Private 1st class. As we shall see, it was LEE Oswald who was assigned to the jet base at El Toro, CA (HARVEY was assigned to Santa Ana, CA)." The US Army and the Marine Corps differ somewhat on ranks. The enlisted system is the same for both with ranks of E1 through E9. A PFC in the Army is an E3. In the Marines a PFC is an E2, which is a lower rank. The equivalent E3 rank in the Marines is a Lance Corporal. The reason I bring this up is that it takes TIS (time in service) to move from one rank to a higher rank. The TIS for a move to E2 from E1 is 6 months in the Marines. Nowadays, one can make rank quicker by special training or education or some meritorious feat. But, in the 1950's this TIS time was pretty much locked in for advancement in the Marines which was about the same as the US Army, which in the 60's was a 4 month period to an automatic promotion to E2. Can you see what I am getting at? How did Lee advance to PFC in the fall of 1956 when he went into the military in mid October, same as Harvey? At best he would have been in the Marines 2 1/2 months by the end of the year. If Sgt. Ransberger knew Lee Oswald as a PFC it must have been at a later time. Or, did Lee join the Marines earlier?

I keep side tracking myself on what I want to discuss. So, I'll get this out of the way first. This photo has always bothered me for some reason I couldn't pin down. It's Oswald's bloused boot in this photo. I was my understanding that soldiers in the Marine Corps didn't do this. I was stationed near a Marine Corps detachment at Camp Perry, Ohio. These were infantry personnel who had been sent to pull the 1000 yard targets and show with a little red disk on a stick where the round hit. They were in about a 7 foot trench below the targets. In a conversation with some of the Marines, they told me they didn't blouse boots and never had. Is this Oswald photo correct with Marines going through Basic Training blousing their boots? Did they do that there and later not blouse their boots in utility uniforms? Does some old Marine from that era have any info on this? The Marine Corps changed their policy on blousing boots in 2003 with this set of orders: This is the pertinent info: 3. THE COMBAT UTILITY COAT WILL BE WORN OUTSIDE THE TROUSERS. WHEN AUTHORIZED BY THE COMMANDER, SLEEVES WILL BE ROLLED WITH THE INSIDE OUT, FORMING A ROLL ABOUT THREE INCHES WIDE, AND TERMINATING AT A POINT ABOUT TWO INCHES ABOVE THE ELBOW. WHEN MARINE CORPS COMBAT BOOTS (MCCB'S) ARE WORN, THE TROUSERS WILL BE BLOUSED IN A NEAT UNIFORM MANNER. WHEN THE COMBAT UTILITY UNIFORM IS PRESCRIBED FOR PARADES, REVIEWS AND CEREMONIES, THE HELMET WITH CAMOUFLAGE COVER MAY BE PRESCRIBED. 4. THE COMBAT UTILITY GARRISON CAP WILL BE WORN This sounds exactly like Sixties US Army policy on how to wear fatigues in hot weather. The bit about bloused boots has been standard in the Army for a long time. If anyone has information that will contradict this please advise. Otherwise, I will consider this well known photo a doctored or altered photo. I think this photo might have been altered to show Oswald may have known more about shooting than otherwise known. This photo of Oswald is a textbook photo on how to fire a weapon in a kneeling position. If he could do this perfectly well then he could shoot perfectly. After all, he had to kneel in the Sniper's Nest to shoot out the window of the TSBD.

Jim, I keep coming back to the idea that it is very difficult to tell one Oswald from the other visually. The FBI had all 488 photos from the Paine's garage, and later included in his CIA 201 file, for several months before showing them to Marina Oswald. Since, many have complained about the FBI doctoring records what is to keep them from doctoring photos? Nothing. The FBI photo lab was handy. They sent their results to the CIA for approval I would assume. Anything out of sequence or plausibility could be claimed as photos from Michael or Ruth Payne. Here's a good example. We usually see Marine Oswald in this photo which is actually a crop of a larger photo. The larger photo has to be kept in the background and not shown. Many have said this is a composite photo based on Oswald's features and feature alignment. The larger photo shows why Oswald's left shoulder is not seen. It seems as if the right arm has been cut away. Regardless, the left side of Oswald's body is larger than his right side. Enough so that the photo of Oswald had to be cropped that way or look weird. Which training class is this alleged Oswald supposed to be at with the Air Force? Jack White is one of my heroes of the Kennedy assassination research. But, Jack had feet of clay and didn't really provide information he knew until much later after the fact. Regardless, he is a Great American. Jack's work about there being a shorter Oswald is confirmed by witnesses saying Oswald was 5"2 or 5'4 in height. FWIW, I believe Lee Oswald pioneered or led the way into the Soviet Union. He was later joined by Harvey in time to be with Marina. Marina describes Harvey's language ability. The shorter Oswald I call Alek Oswald who is composited with Harvey on Hiddell's draft card. Jack thought this fellow looked nothing like Lee or Harvey. I agree. There is a superficial resemblance. Of course, most of the Oswald doubles do superficially resemble either Oswald. But, that resemblance falls apart on closer inspection. This is the person Jack White thought was the shorter Oswald when measured against Marina when both were photographed in this location. I made the same mistake that Jack did when I first noticed the lack of height difference between the two. I didn't look at Marina's feet. She may have been wearing heals rather than sandals. Heals would change her height about 2 inches or less. This is still an argument. Did she wear heals and would it have changed the height difference between a 5'2 foot lady and a 5'11 or 5'9 man significantly. It is my opinion that Harvey or Lee was not replaced by any Russian agent. Harvey replaced Lee at a certain point once Lee had established the routines of Lee Oswald. They played their Here's Harvey and Here's Lee game off and on while there. One may have made trips to other places such as Rome. One of the Oswalds possibly Lee may have left a week early (there was a rumor of a young American male leaving Minsk about a week before the Oswald family) and returned to the US through Keflavik, Iceland. Proof? More likely speculation. Here's where I go farther out on the limb. I believe Marina knew this and was good with the idea of there being two Oswalds. If there were two Oswalds in Minsk and later in Texas at the Paines, then they must have shared things, wife, clothes, camera equipment, etc. Marina's mission, as a honey trap, was to get to the US as the wife of a defector. She became a double agent for the US. Then tripled once she was in the US.

Sounds more like Harvey Oswald's underlying foreign accent rather than a pseudo-psychological "consciousness of guilt".

Jim, For some reason or another this editor won't accept a link to Mary Ferrell's page on this. So, use this search term in google; CIA 201 File Volume 32 Item 21 And, that will take you to Mary Ferrell's page on the Oswald 201 file. Go down the list to Volume 32 and item 21 and you will have access to the 448 photos supposedly taken from the Oswalds/Paine's garage. Are all these photos related? I would think so. The Keflavik photos are amongst them and I can think of no other reason for them to be there then being in the group of photos that Oswald had stored in Ruth Paine's garage. There are photos in this collection that are a bit strange suggesting an Oswald was on the Black Sea vacationing (?), Italy, with photos of Rome, and other places. There was even photos of New Orleans, but I couldn't determine if they were from pre-1963 or during the summer of 1963. There were several photos showing the US Army suggesting that the things Oswald said about serving with the Army in Japan and the Philippines were true. The FBI had these photos first early on and what they did with them early on is open to conjecture. Did they pass through the FBI photo lab? They were in there possession from Nov. 1963 to March, 1964 when shown to Marina. They did show them to Marina Oswald March 19, 1964 for her comments on the photos. They results were sent to the CIA: Other than this I don't have a clue to their authenticity.

These photos were in the 201 file. The couple in the left hand photo looks like Lee and Marina. But, the photo is so poor they could be anybody. The same goes with an enlargement of the two. They could be anybody. However, the image of the man pointed to with the red arrow is very reminiscent of an Oswald. The resemblance is in the hair and shape of the head. My art sense of comparison says there may be something here, but that is not scientific or anywhere close to that.

Jim, This gives some info on what you were requesting. In your thread listed below this came up from Jeff Carter giving me a tip on info. NEW! Drop-dead visual proof that the rifle and scope in the “Backyard photos” (CE-133-A, B, C) is different from “Oswald’s” so-called rifle and scope (CE 139) By Jim Hargrove, June 29 in JFK Assassination Debate (Pages 4 through 8 has posts listing some of the things I was thinking.) Jeff Carter Posted July 2 (edited) On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 11:10 AM, John Butler said: Jim, Are these photos and negatives available to be viewed? It would be interesting to see what they are. Alan J. Weberman, if memory serves, had photos developed from the film in one of Oswald's cameras. They were interesting showing things that the WC didn't see. I wonder about the others? John - have a look at Commission Document 443 and also CIA 201 File Volume 32 Item 21 for photos/images from Oswald/Paines. Edited July 3 by Jeff Carter The Mary Ferrell Foundation has this info also This should get you into the things I was using for posts in your thread. If you need me to summarize this I'll take a shot at it.

Jim and Steve, Thanks for posting a link to this document. It helps understanding a problem I had with looking at photos in Oswald's 201 file. These photos suggested that Oswald was serving with the American Army rather than being in the Marines. It was a problem I couldn't get a handle on and simply dismissed it as something questionable. And, it screws up one of my notions that Lee Oswald is responsible for the filming of various things and places while in the Marine Corps. This letter was probably written by Harvey, the Russian speaking twin of the Oswald duo. This leads one to believe that Harvey was the one taking all of those photos of the American Army in Japan and the Philippines. Harvey did say he was knowledgeable of photographic techniques and would prove the BYPs false. I would suppose as agents both were trained in photography and that may help explain the Keflavik photos for one Oswald coming back from Russia (Lee) and another coming back with his wife and daughter by boat (Harvey). I still may be confused on this and any help straightening this out would be appreciated.

Showing the Beef and Let’s pile the guano a little higher: Payette and Parnell deny the existence of two people who have come to be known as Lee Oswald and Harvey Oswald. It is fairly easy based on readily available evidence to show that there was a Harvey and Lee set based upon the person known as Lee Harvey Oswald. This photo was taken at a Civil Air Patrol training session when Lee Harvey Oswald was in High School in New Orleans. This crop from a larger photo in which some folks often identify the figure shown as Harvey Oswald. Warren Commission folks say this is Lee Harvey Oswald. I agree, this is the original Lee Harvey Oswald. Lee Harvey Oswald is said to have lost upper teeth in the front of his mouth in a high school fight. We can see this lack of teeth in this photo. His counterpart, Harvey, in the Lee and Harvey Oswald set possessed his front upper teeth at a time later seen in this Marine Corps photo. His upper right incisor was smaller than the left upper incisor. This is very noticeable in this Marine Corps photo. This is Harvey Oswald (an unknown individual), the man Jack Ruby shot at the Dallas Police Station. He was later buried and then dug up in 1981 and this photo comes from that event. This is the teeth of Harvey Oswald and not Lee Oswald. Two people known as Lee Harvey Oswald were used for the purposes of the government in spying. There was a fairly close resemblance between the two. However, that resemblance would not hold up if both were seen at the same time and place, or by a keen observer such as Laura Kittrell. There's probably a ton of other evidence for Harvey and Lee, but I think this works for two young men at the beginning of their career as a double spy team.

Not the new McAdams, but the new Bugliosi. A lawyer. "What was actually found in Oswald’s possession when he was arrested was the lid of a little box from Cox’s Department Store in Ft. Worth. It was described on one inventory as “Small box top bearing the name ‘Cox's, Fort Worth’” and on another as “top of a small cardboard box with ‘Cox’s Fort Worth printed on top.” It was not “half” of a box top, as conspiracy theorists (including Waldron) love to suggest (as though the contact in the Texas Theater were going to have the matching half). FWIW, in 2013 a clever theater critic in Ft. Worth wondered why Oswald would be carrying this odd relic: “Why, I wondered, would a man carry a Cox’s box lid in his pocket to work? I measured the more vintage jewelry boxes in my collection—almost all of them 3 ½ inches square, a standard size even to this day. Then I had a thought: If someone wanted to carry ammunition inconspicuously, and keep loose cartridges from rolling off a windowsill or a stack of boxes, what could be better? I checked, and the possibility fits. Cartridges from the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found in the Texas School Book Depository (also found in the Bugliosi book’s photographs) measure 3 inches long and about ½–inch wide. Six would fit perfectly into a small white box 3 ½ inches square.” See http://www.theaterjones.com/ntx/reviews/20131110192806/2013-11-11/Casa-Manana/Oswald-The-Actual-Interrogation. Also FWIW, Marguerite Oswald had worked at Cox’s in Fort Worth. Armstrong mentions this, and John Pic and Robert Oswald both stated they had visited her while she was working there in 1958 and 1959. This may explain how Oswald came to have this little box. Perhaps she had kept a piece of jewelry in it, and Oswald decided it would come in handy for some purpose of his (as it apparently did on November 22, 1963). In any event, it renders the box lid considerably less mysterious." Let's see. A small cardboard lid becomes a cardboard jewelry box, and then turns into an ammo box capable of carrying 6 Carcano rounds. It is suitable for keeping those 6 rounds from jingling in your pocket or rolling around on a book box in the Sniper's Nest. It makes the object less mysterious? What are the factoids? 3 spent rounds are found on the floor of the Sniper's Nest, and one live round was found in the Carcano rifle. So, what's the point of having a "little cardboard lid" to carry 6 rounds of ammunition around in the cardboard lid", even if that's possible. The rounds were carried in the rifle. Why carry them separately? Is this the kind of logic that wins court cases?

It is very difficult to tell whether a photo or film is about Lee or Harvey or some other double. These frames were taken from a New Orleans video and show something that you will not catch if the video is just watched and not examined closely. The first frame on the left clearly shows a face mask covering who this is. The mask is also in the right hand frame, but less noticeable. The second frame on the right shows an Oswald figure with a large, muscular right arm and a noticeably smaller, weaker left arm. The hair appears to have been worked on, but it is difficult to say confidently. Although it appears to be Harvey Oswald, it is not. It is probably Lee. In these frames the ears are clearly a problem. So, whose at the Texas Theater confronting Officer McDonald? Harvey or Lee? Is it the stronger, heavier Lee who one would think more capable of knocking out Officer McDonald or the scrawny Harvey? I think it was Harvey and if I had to put money down it would be on Harvey. Just because a person is smaller or weaker looking in appearance doesn't mean they are not capable of knocking out Officer McDonald. Depending on his training (one can learn the correct ways to strike someone) or have the natural strength to do it. I think Harvey was capable. But, dealing with the two there is always an element of doubt.

Jim, Right. Laura Kittrell from her statements appears to be a keen observer. There were many Oswald doubles out and about during this period. I can see how one would confuse them as in the Riveria article. This confuses whose who in the work of identifying who is Lee and who is Harvey. People differ greatly on their appearance in photos and the stories told about them. When photos of Oswald doubles, say Billy Seymour or the most recent alleged to be Oswald double, Manual Rodriquez Ocarberrio , are compared to either what one considers to be Lee or Harvey, they soon fall by the wayside as a person identified as Lee Harvey Oswald. It's obvious the man in the Carousal Club photo is not Lee or Harvey. Tammi True is related to the problems I have with the Babushka Lady and general photo alterations in Dealey Plaza. Do you have any interesting information on Tammi True or sources one could look at?

Jim Hargrove posted a photo of a man sitting in the back of the Carousal Club with a view of a stripper: I think the man has been identified as Larry Craford. Here is an interesting article on Craford: Sunday, November 4, 2018 Update on Larry Craford New information about Larry Craford has emerged providing new insights into his role in the alleged assassination of John F Kennedy, as well as compelling a revision to our previous belief about his role in the murder of Dallas Police Department Officer JD Tippit. Larry Rivera has unearthed new details about the Texas Employment Commission (TEC) incident revealing that Larry Craford (aka Crafard) was the man impersonating Lee HARVEY Oswald. For those new to the case, a young man said to be Oswald applied to the TEC for employment prior to "finding" a job at the Texas School Book Depository in October 1963. He was interviewed by Laura Kittrell who left a lengthy manuscript detailing her interviews of Oswald. She described a man who was prone to outbursts, bragged of speaking Russian and being in Russia, and displayed other idiosyncratic behaviors which suggested that he was a "Lone Nut." When Kittrell later saw pictures of Craford from the Warren Commission, she recognized the man as her noisy Oswald. But that wasn't the only Oswald Kittrell interviewed. The other version was indeed Lee HARVEY Oswald who was much more polished and composed. Kittrell noticed this difference, realizing that she was being played, but not sure of its meaning. Thus it is very clear that CIA was running multiple Oswalds, as John Armstrong has abundantly demonstrated, to create a profile of a man who was unhinged and liable to do anything, including murdering a president. Kittrell noticed that her boisterous and careless Oswald was not the news media Oswald, and was thus studiously avoided by the Warren Commission. Her records at TEC had been confiscated by FBI while she at the Trade Mart expecting to hear the president speak. Not only had Kittrell seen Crafard, but she also saw the real HARVEY Oswald. She knew that 2 people were playing the same Oswald character. Previously, we had opined - with conviction - that Larry Craford had murdered Tippit, but we may raise caution after these revelations. On the other hand, it cannot be ruled out all together. We are also not convinced that Tippit was murdered. In other words, it appears that Crafard's assignment was to make Oswald look like a nut case. But we also know that he was involved with organized crime because he mentioned to Kittrell his ties to Nixon aide and real estate investor Murray Chotiner. We also reported previously Crafard's career as a gun for hire. Thus we have a credible basis for assuming that Craford applied his trade in the execution of JD Tippit. Further research by Armstrong shows that LEE Harvey Oswald murdered Tippit, but there may be more to the story. Some witnesses reported seeing 2 men leave the alleged Tippit murder scene, each going in opposite directions. If the Tippit murder was faked, as we suspect, then we have to question whether or not any of the witnesses were authentic. They may have been crisis actors as the government uses them so frequently in faked "tragedies." But accepting that 2 men were at the scene of the "murder", it is entirely possible that one of them was Crafard while the other was LEE. But because the accounts of 2 assailants is somewhat murky, we leave as conjecture our hypothesis that Crafard was the murderer - if in fact there were a murder. Reasons for doubting that a murder was committed include the cleanliness of the crime scene, and the cleanliness of LEE Oswald - there was no blood spatter or flying body fragments expected in a close range gun attack. On the other hand, if Crafard was the gunman, then that might explain why the white-shirted LEE Oswald was untainted with physical evidence of the crime. At this point, we can firmly believe and know that Larry Crafard was the man impersonating Lee HARVEY Oswald at the Texas Employment Commission. References Larry Rivera, Laura Kittrell, Larry Crafard, and Lee Oswald, The New JFK Show Blog, September 27, 2018, accessed 11/4/2018 John Armstrong, The Murder of J. D. Tippit, Harvey and Lee (website), September The stripper in the photo is Tammy True, aka Nancy Monnell Powell: She is an interesting character people rarely pay attention to for her role and her association (other than stripping at the Carousal Club) with Jack Ruby in the Kennedy Assassination. IMO, and the opinion of others, she was a Kennedy Assassination co-conspirator.

While reading through the various posts in this thread, I was struck again with one of the problems I have with Oswald at the Texas Theater. Let me start this explanation with this photo: Here we see Oswald at the Dallas Police station surrounded by these huge Dallas Police officers and detectives. I had two thoughts on this. One, that the Dallas Police wanted to show how little, scrawny, and pathetic this crazed killer was. Or, that they were showing how deadly and dangerous this killer of the President and Officer Tippit was. I think this is what they believed. The problem I have is the confrontation between Officer McDonald and Harvey Oswald. Harvey Oswald was 5’8 or 5’9 in height and about 130-135 lbs. in weight. Officer McDonald was a much bigger man and a trained police officer with years of experience in subduing law offenders. One would think that the following account is accurate. Generally, we read about this confrontation in this manner. Office McDonald approaches Oswald’s location. He jumps up out of his seat and says something like “It’s all over now” and pulls a .38 revolver on Office McDonald jams it into McDonald’s stomach and pulls the trigger. The gun misfires. McDonald seizes the gun and then subdues Oswald. Other officers arrive and help capture Oswald. In a later video interview Officer McDonald says basically that. But, is that really the way it happened? There are other accounts seldom seen in which Oswald knocks down Officer McDonald. Or, knocks him out cold as stated in this snip of an interview account with Roger Craig, etc. My problem with this is if this account is true, and I have no reason to disbelieve it, that Oswald knocked Officer McDonald down an out then why did he pull a gun on McDonald and try to shoot him? It doesn’t make sense. And, this has led to speculation like who really had the gun? Did McDonald have a throw away gun and was going to kill Oswald and Oswald saved himself by knocking out McDonald? IMO, there were several attempts to kill Oswald that afternoon after the assassination. Baker on the upper floors of the TSBD, the bus incident, and at the Texas Theater.

As I said in an earlier post, it is very difficult to separate Lee Oswald from Harvey Oswald for a variety of reasons. First of these reasons is that Lee and Harvey had a close general resemblance. This resemblance was close enough that they could be in the same environments and generally not recognized as two different people. This type of discussion concerning the identity of Harvey and Lee Oswald has been done by others before and is being repeated here in a different fashion to help me identify whose who. I’m sure not everyone will agree with this interpretation. We all see things differently. Most people looking at his photo of a young Oswald will say that this is Harvey Oswald the man killed at the Dallas Police station. But, a closer examination might change one’s mind. Here is a photo of Lee, or is it Harvey when he was young and attending a Civil Air Patrol cadet training meeting. The man known as Harvey Oswald did not have any missing teeth, an incisor and canine, in the front part of the mouth. The gap between teeth looks large enough for two teeth. This version of Lee Harvey Oswald does have missing teeth. In the right-hand photo with Marina, Harvey clearly has an incisor and canine. Their general appearance is much the same, but there exists enough differences that photo alteration was necessary. A larger version of the Harvey and Marina photo offers a better view on Harvey’s mouth which shows no missing incisor or canine. Since the incisor is smaller in relation to what it should be, we can say with some confidence this is not a dental replacement. This rather grisly photo identifies Harvey Oswald, the man shot at the Dallas Police station, and definitely not Lee Oswald. And, this also clears the idea of a dental replacement. This is another photo suggesting Lee Oswald was missing teeth. When you place a photo of Harvey Oswald next to Lee Oswald then you will see that close general appearance is not that close. This is why photos were altered into composite photos or a face or head was superimposed in photos of Lee Oswald. To be fair this is a comparison between a youth and an adult. In the following montage the two left-hand photos might be Lee Oswald. IMO, they resemble the teen age photo of Lee rather than the photo of Harvey at the bottom left or extreme right. The photos I have judged as Lee Oswald are all enlargements of other photos where these figures are distant and not easily seen. Perhaps, they were deemed unnecessary to change being difficult to view without enlargement. Lee Oswald has vanished almost entirely from the photo record just as he got on a plane in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963 and flew to Walters Air Force Base / Rosewell Army Base in New Mexico and vanished from history.

Payette, Are you directing this at me? Repetition of Previous insult deleted by admin..

Motorcade 63 might be better understood if the identify of the actors were made clearer. If actors 1-8 are the first 8 vehicles in the motorcade then who are they? 1, 2, and 3 suggest the Advance Motorcycles. If so, this omits the Advance Car and the Pilot Car. The Advance Car is not a problem. According to the AMIPA film the Advance Car drops out of the motorcade by turning north on Record St. or the one just prior (too lazy to look this up) and the second car, the Pilot Car continues on to Houston and Elm. It is not clear where the 5 Lead Motorcycles are and the Lead Car. I am assuming the Lead Car is number 9. The Lead Motorcycles turn onto Houston Street close together in two waves, first 3 motorbikes and then directly behind two more. The AMIPA shows what happens on Houston Street from a position I believe is Record Street. Hughes, Muchmore, Skaggs, Altgens, Bell, Willis, Bothun, Nix, and others show what happen on the turn from Main on to Houston then to Elm and some show the turn onto Elm. Some of this might clear up if the actors are identified somewhere accessible.

Thanks Lance, It is a bit outrageously outre. But, so are a lot of things in the Oswald/Kennedy story. CTers give you example after example of outrageous things. Such a notion that has been postulated can easily be put to rest. One just needs to find Marina's pregnancy record at a hospital in Minsk. Of Course, Cters could say well she's a spy and spies have legends. Her records could be doctored or manufactured. Well then, how about DNA testing? One could test the descendants of Robert Oswald (a stand in for Lee who has vanished from history), dig up poor Ozzie for the second time, test Marina, June, and let's not forget Rachel for any relationship there might be amongst them. Would we be surprised by such testing? Would we find "Lack of photos of Marina pregnant" = "Possibility baby June was an orphan assigned to intelligence agents posing as married couple by Soviet spymasters." Nice.", or something else like the official Warren Commission scenario of truth, or something else unheard of before? Are you admitting in your statement that there is indeed a lack of photos of pregnant Marina in Minsk?

Reading Joe Bauer's post about "Marina and their babies" sent me off into another round of speculative thought. Has anyone ever seen a photo of Marina Oswald being pregnant? I can't recall one. IMO, Lee Oswald was the photo taker of the team Harvey and Lee. He was constantly photographing things during the Marine Corps, Minsk, and at home in Dallas, less so in New Orleans. But, in two pregnancies their is not a single photo of Marina pregnant (at least I haven't seen any). Some people think this is a doll that Marina is holding in the photo. It looks like a child to me. What if those folks are right to a certain extent? What if their child, June, was a prop to make it more acceptable that Lee and Marina were a married couple rather than two intelligence agents? Could the first daughter be an orphan assigned to this spy couple by the Soviets because Lee had become a double agent for the Russians and Marina has become a double agent for the Americans? Then both tripled when they came to the US. I know this will sound like to much loose speculation, but where are the photos of her pregnancy? Something missing always, IMO, triggers speculation. Does anyone have photos of Marina pregnant in Minsk?

Robert Vinson says on the video that the assassination of President Kennedy was announced at 12:29. Allowing for the differences in watches and time in those days that could have been somewhere around that time. I don't recall him saying they landed near that time. So, the events of the Texas Theater must have occurred prior to the C-54 landing on the road under construction (Houston St? Does that go near the Trinity River? The TSBD is reasonably close to the Trinity) . The events of the Texas Theater couldn't have happened after the plane landed because the alleged Oswald on the plane would not have shown up at the theater.

Referring back to an earlier post, this post is not as cool as thinking and musing about Ozzie and the Little Grey Aliens at Area 51. But, that's just a fantasy. However, before there were rifles, there were U2s and radar. Those earlier posts about Lee Oswald’s being at Nellis Air Force Base / Area 51 need to be explored anew in regards to just what experience Oswald had with U2s and radar that he could offer to the Soviets. Many people have spoke of this idea as long as decades ago. Here is something from Time Magazine discussing the idea in 1978 about Lee Oswald being a spy. And, to me that asks the question whether he a spy for the Office of Naval Intellgence or the CIA? Did he become a double agent or a triple agent? This article mentions his radar training at Biloxi, Miss. (according to Harvey and Lee and Harvey both trained there), and his duty at Atsugi, Japan, a secret CIA / U2 installation. This article does not mention his later service at the Marine Base at El Toro, California. A Time Magazine article from 1978: “Nation: Was Lee Oswald a Soviet Spy? Monday, Feb. 27, 1978 A fascinating new portrait of Kennedy's assassin Was Lee Harvey Oswald an informer who gave U.S. military secrets to the Soviet KGB? Was he involved in the famous downing of the U-2 spy plane? A tantalizing new book presents strong evidence that Oswald's connections with the KGB were closer and more devious than the public has been led to believe. The book, Legend: The Secret World of Lee Harvey Oswald, is the result of 2½ years of work by Reader's Digest editors and researchers, who acquired many FBI and CIA documents under the Freedom of Information Act and, in addition, covered some 150,000 miles in 26 states and nine nations to interview Oswald's former associates. It was written by Edward Jay Epstein, a careful academic researcher whose 1966 book, Inquest, first revealed the flaws in the Warren Commission's investigation but did not conjure up any wild conspiracy theories. Epstein still refuses to draw flat conclusions. Yet he weaves a skein of circumstantial evidence suggesting that Oswald learned key performance data on the CIA's U-2 plane while serving as a Marine radar controller at Atsugi, Japan, in 1957, and that he provided information to the Soviets either then or upon his defection to Russia in 1959. Oswald's information, the book suggests, enabled the Soviets to redesign their rocket-guidance systems so as to knock CIA Pilot Gary Powers out of the air over the Soviet Union on May 1,1960. Oswald's Marine specialty, radar controller, required above-average intelligence, and he ranked seventh in his training class in Biloxi, Miss. From visual, radio and radar observation at Atsugi, one base from which the U-2 operated, Oswald could have learned much about its speed, rate of climb and altitude.” Harvey and Lee mentioned Lee Oswald was assigned for a short period of time in December, 1958 to Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada. This may have been for just a couple of days before Dec. 22, 1958 when he returned to the El Toro base. Area 51 is part of the Nellis complex and Lee Oswald could have learned detailed information on the U2 there. Perhaps things that the ordinary Marine radar operator would not know. In light of the following in January of the next year, Lee Oswald may have been prepped for this journey to Russia with bargaining chips about the U2 and more detailed information on early warning radar. Lee Oswald at Vincent AFB in Yuma Arizona from Harvey and Lee “January- Lee Oswald at Vincent AFB in Yuma, Arizona On January 19, while Harvey remained in Santa Ana (Nelson Delgado was still on leave), Lee Oswald departed from the Marine Corps Air Station at El Toro aboard a government aircraft for Vincent Air Force Base in Yuma, Arizona. 5 The National Archives has two photographs of "Lee Oswald" that were taken during this trip. One photograph is of Oswald kneeling in front of a horse, wearing a jacket and cowboy hat. 59-01 On the reverse side of this photograph, apparently in Lee Oswald's handwriting, is a notation "Vincent AFB Yuma, Arizona."6 The other photograph is of Lee Oswald, wearing a white t-shirt, kneeling in front of a group of small trees. 59-02 After departing Yuma, Lee Oswald returned to the Marine Corps Air Station (the large jet base) at El Toro, CA. Harvey Oswald remained at Marine Corps Air Facility (MACS 9), 5 miles from El Toro.” Yuma Air Force Station (1956-1963) - A Cold War Air Force Radar Station first established in 1956 near Yuma, Yuma County, Arizona. Named Yuma Air Force Station after the location. Initially assigned a Permanent ID of SM-162, later a Sage ID of Z-162. Abandoned in 1963. Also known as Vincent Air Force Base Radar Site MCAAS Yuma-Vincent Field on 26 Sep 1959. By the Palm tree on the left, you can see the MPS-7 search radar (Left), and the MPS-14 height-finder radar (right). History Established on 2 Aug 1955 and became operational in 1956 on Vincent Air Force Base as Vincent Air Force Base Radar Site. Renamed Yuma Air Force Station after Vincent AFB was transferred to the U.S. Marine Corps on 1 Jan 1959. Manned by the 864th AC&W Squadron. The station initially had both a Ground-Control Intercept (GCI) and early warning mission. The early warning mission involved tracking and identifying all aircraft entering their airspace while the GCI mission involved guiding Air Force interceptors to any identified enemy aircraft. Controllers at the station vectored fighter aircraft at the correct course and speed to intercept enemy aircraft using voice commands via ground-to-air radio. Initial equipment included the MPS-7 search radar and an MPS-14 height-finder radar. Lee Oswald was a valuable member of the Marine Corps with a very high security clearance. He would have to have had that to visit so many secret military bases such as the CIA / U2 base at Atsugi, Japan. And, later at Nellis / Area 51 and Vincent Air Force Base, a Cold War early detection station. All of these bases were probably unknown to the public in those days being very hush-hush and secret. It might be interesting to detail which secret bases Lee Oswald was at for training and duty. And, where he acquired his knowledge of U2s and radar. One would think that after serving as he did he would have plenty of knowledge to trade with the Russians. Particularly, if he was prepped as one could believe from the following: Lee Oswald was at the Radar School at Biloxi, Miss. from May 4 to June 19, 1957. Lee Oswald at the Marine Base at El Toro, CA from July 9 to August 21, 1957. He was probably assigned to some sort of Replacement Station awaiting transfer overseas. This would have allowed little time to pick up much about radar. Lee Oswald at Atsugi, Japan in September, 1957. This was a highly classified CIA base, probably the largest in the area. There are many blank areas during this period in which Lee Oswald could have received training. Oswald was in the Philippines and Taiwan setting up field radar stations. On November 19, 1958, after being assigned to the El Toro base, Lee Oswald took a 30-day leave and went to Ft. Worth, TX. Most of that time is unaccounted for and he could have been doing anything government related in other places. Sometime in late December, 1958 Lee Oswald was at the Nellis / Area 51 base in Nevada, the testing facility for the U2 aircraft. The date and time are uncertain, maybe for just a few days, and perhaps sometime directly after returning to the El Toro base. The following year in January, 1959 Lee Oswald goes to Vincent Air Force Base just coming under control of the Marine Corps. This base was a Cold War early detection base equipped with advance radar equipment such as the MPS-7 search radar and an MPS-14 height-finder radar. There is the possibility that one of the Oswalds, possibly Lee who I assign as the one taking the pictures assigned to Lee Harvey Oswald, came back to the US through the Cold War early radar detection air base at Keflavik, Iceland. Directly after the assassination, Lee Oswald goes to Walter Air Force Base / Roswell Army Air Base at Roswell, New Mexico. At the time of Oswald's visit this base was an important Strategic Air Command base. It was the home of B 52 bombers and Atlas guided missiles. It was probably a very secure area. This was posted on another thread about two Oswalds at the Texas Theater. It is different from what Rick McTague posted about going to Nellis Air Base in Nevada and is probably better because of the Robert Vinson interview video: Jim Hargrove Super Member Members 2,506 posts Gender:Male Posted Thursday at 12:47 PM Let’s consider the title of this thread. This is probably a long shot, but . . . . Air Force vet Robert Vinson said he was on a nearly empty C-54 Cargo plane that left Andrews Air Force Base the afternoon of 11/22 when it was apparently diverted and landed on what he thought was a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas. He said a Jeep with three men (a driver, a man who might be Cuban, and a fellow who “looked an awful lot like Oswald") drove up and the two passengers got on. Vinson claimed the plane took off and went to the Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico. He added that the entire base was on lockdown until later that evening. Here’s part 2 of a YouTube interview with Vinson: CLICK HERE And, from Rick McTague another trip to Nellis: "It's also interesting that this same base is the very last place the second Oswald was seen, where a CIA plane - one that diverted over Nebraska, headed for Dallas, landed in the Trinity River bottoms, picked up an Oswald lookalike and a dark complected man (Morales?) 11/22 afternoon and flew to Nellis - landed. Robert Vinson was the last guy who saw the second Oswald at Nellis who then disappeared into history after getting off the plane." This brief overview suggests that Lee Oswald did have access to U2 and radar systems and the possibility of more advanced information on the U2 and sophisticated radar systems from other bases. This kind of information would be highly prized by the Soviets and they would do what was necessary to acquire it. Lee Oswald seems to have had an affinity for top level secure and secret bases involved with the highest levels of security and National Defense. The stories of the Russians not wanting Oswald just don’t ring true. This bait is exactly what American Intelligence planned for to get Lee Oswald into Russia. The U2 incident was then a short time away. Lee Oswald the non-Russian speaking, taller, more adventuresome of the two paved the way into Russia for the shorter, Russian speaking Harvey who later marries Marina, who thinks he is from one of the Baltic states.