John Butler

The Zapruder film has fooled countless people for decades. John Costella said the film was nearly perfect technically. When I talk about the Zapruder fraud it is about the content of the individual frames not the mechanics of the film and camera. My belief is the shooting sequence was taken from the Zapruder Gap and transferred further down the street so that a rifleman on the sixth floor Sniper's Nest could be said to have shot the president. Over 50 witnesses said they heard shooting when the presidential limousine was in front of the TSBD. That is the time of the missing Zapruder Gap. The Tina Towner film contradicts that, but that film is an animation.

Jim, If Mr. B has an objection to anything said by, say from you, or me, or anyone, he should do it in a reasonable and objective manner. I'm really that tired of the kind of ad hominem attacks engaged in by certain members of this forum. I was beat up on a regular basis for years. I simply got tired of that kind of behavior and started reporting people to the monitors for the rule breaking they engaged in. Mr. Gordon has made an effort to eliminate that kind of behavior and is succeeding. Reading Penn Jones work is informative, stimulating, and factual. I just wish I could find again the reference he made about the confrontation between Officer McDonald and Harvey Oswald. I have a speculative notion that things didn't occur between the two as most people report. The two Oswalds, Lee and Harvey, were continually moving in and out of the central role of Lee Harvey Oswald. IMO, this goes back to working at Tujaques and the other business in the same building. My opinion is that Lee and Harvey were both at the TSBD on the day of the assassination. I don't think I did a very good job of convincing folks in several threads where I brought up the idea. At the TSBD, whatever I read about Oswald made me think both Harvey and Lee were there. Sometimes, replacing each other and sometimes there together such as on the day of the assassination. Their act was very practiced. They had been doing it for years. They looked enough like each other they could fool people except if someone was really looking. For instance in the street Fair Play for Cuba handout scenes, I believe that was Lee not Harvey. Someone had to put a face mask on the Oswald figure to make it look like Harvey. Harvey and Lee were in New Orleans at the same time. It is hard to tell who is who in any location due to film alterations. Back to Harvey Oswald and Officer McDonald. If my memory is correct, Penn Jones said that Oswald not only scuffled with Officer McDonald, but knocked him down and out. He did this with his fist. Why didn't he hit him with the revolver after it misfired? I think it's because he never had a revolver. McDonald brought that into the Texas Theater. If may have been a defective weapon given to McDonald by Jack Ruby and Jack Ruby had to pay for that. That's speculation, but I'm not the only one doing it. I believe the Dallas Police believed Harvey Oswald was an extremely capable, violent, and dangerous person. Whenever you see him at the Dallas Police Station it is always handcuffed with large, man handlers present. This is because of the McDonald/Oswald confrontation. The only thing we have about Oswald saying anything about a revolver is that which the Dallas Police said he said. Can we believe it? That goes for anything he said that is off camera. Can the Dallas Police, the FBI, and the Secret Service who were the main agents of the cover up be believed in portraying what Oswald is alleged to have said. It is my belief that there were more than two Oswalds. I have very little evidence for that belief other than the Alek J. Hidell identity, and that is iffey. These are the main characters of the central Lee Harvey Oswald role. There were many doubles in other places such as New Orleans and Dallas.

Keyvan, I believe that the people who killed Kennedy either manufactured or actually believed the idea that Kennedy was a traitor and a pawn of the Soviet Union. The handbill in Dallas states the reasons for Kennedy's death. The assassination of President Kennedy was an action of elements of the Executive Branch of the United States Government. The leaders of the Secret Service, FBI, CIA, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the silence of the Justice Department under Robert Kennedy was necessary to plan and construct a pre-assassination coverup plan, contain the assassination after events, and finalize a cover up. Robert Kennedy was kept silent due to his behavior in the Marilyn Monroe death.

Who got to William Greer? The Director of the Secret Service. "James Rowley, who was a good friend of Johnson, as well as Hoover, his former boss."

Jim, I was trying to find or re-find an article by Penn Jones on the confrontation between Oswald and Officer Mcdonald when I ran across this by Penn Jones. I couldn't get a link to work for this article so. I fairly sure this article covers many of the same things as Jim Marrs did. By Penn Jones, Jr. (from The Rebel magazine, January 1984) Over 100 murders, suicides, mysterious deaths--the strange fate of those who saw Kennedy shot. Shortly after dark on Sunday night November 24, 1963, after Ruby had killed Lee Harvey Oswald, a meeting took place in Jack Ruby's apartment in Oak Cliff, a suburb of Dallas, Texas. Five persons were present. George Senator and Attorney Tom Howard were present and having a drink in the apartment when two newsmen arrived. The newsmen were Bill Hunter of the Long Beach California Press Telegram, and Jim Koethe of the Dallas Times Herald. Attorney C.A. Droby of Dallas arranged the meeting for the two newsmen. Jim Martin, a close friend of George Senator's, was also present at the apartment meeting. This writer asked Martin if he thought it was unusual for Senator to forget the meeting while testifying in Washington on April 22, 1964, since Bill Hunter, who was a newsman present at the meeting, was shot to death that very night. Martin grinned and said: "Oh, you're looking for a conspiracy." I nodded yes and he grinned and said, "You will never find it." I asked soberly, "Never find it, or not there?" He added soberly, "Not there." Bill Hunter, a native of Dallas and an award winning newsman in Long Beach, was on duty and reading a book in the police station called "Public Safety Building." Two policemen going off duty came into the press room, and one policeman shot Hunter through the heart at a range officially ruled to be "no more than three feet." The policeman said he dropped his gun, and it fired as he picked it up, but the angle of the bullet caused him to change his story. He finally said he was playing a game of quick draw with his fellow officer. The other officer testified he had his back turned when the shooting took place. Hunter, who covered the assassination for his paper, the Long Beach Press Telegram, had written: "Within minutes of Ruby's execution of Oswald, before the eyes of millions watching television, at least two Dallas attorneys appeared to talk with him." Hunter was quoting Tom Howard who died of a heart attack in Dallas a few months after Hunter's own death. Lawyer Tom Howard was observed acting strangely to his friends two days before his death. Howard was taken to the hospital by a "friend" according to the newspapers. No autopsy was performed. Dallas Times Herald reporter Jim Koethe was killed by a karate chop to the throat just as he emerged from a shower in his apartment on September 21, 1964. His murderer was not indicted. What went on in that significant meeting in Ruby's and Senator's apartment? Few are left to tell. There is no one in authority to ask the question, since the Warren Commission has made its final report, and The House Select Committee has closed its investigation. Dorothy Kilgallen was another reporter who died strangely and suddenly after her involvement in the Kennedy assassination. Miss Kilgallen is the only journalist who was granted a private interview with Jack Ruby after he killed Lee Harvey Oswald. Judge Joe B. Brown granted the interview during the course of the Ruby trial in Dallas--to the intense anger of the hundreds of other newspeople present. We will not divulge exactly what Miss Kilgallen did to obtain the interview with Ruby. But Judge Brown bragged about the price paid. Only that was not the real price Miss Kilgallen paid. She gave her life for the interview. Miss Kilgallen stated that she was "going to break this case wide open." Lee Harvey Oswald--murdered Photo by Wide World Dorothy Killgallen--murdered Lee Bowers died from "a strange sort of shock" Jim Koethe-murdered . Warren Reynolds--murdered Photo by Wide World Jack Ruby, diagnosed with pneumonia, died 28 days later of cancer She died on November 8, 1965. Her autopsy report took eight days. She was 52 years old. Two days later Mrs. Earl T. Smith, a close friend of Miss Kilgallen's died of undetermined causes. Tom Howard, who died of a heart attack, was a good friend of District Attorney Henry Wade, although they often opposed each other in court. Howard was close to Ruby and other fringes of the Dallas underworld. Like Ruby, Howard's life revolved around the police station, and it was not surprising when he and Ruby (toting his gun) showed up at the station on the evening of the assassination of President Kennedy. Nor was it unusual when Howard arrived at the jail shortly after Ruby shot Oswald, asking to see his old friend. Howard was shown into a meeting room to see a bewildered Ruby who had not asked for a lawyer. For the next two days--until Ruby's brother, Earl, soured on him, and had Howard relieved--he was Jack Ruby's chief attorney and public spokesman. Howard took to the publicity with alacrity, called a press conference, wheeled and dealed. He told newsmen the case was a "once-in-a-lifetime chance," and that "speaking as a private citizen," he thought Ruby deserved a Congressional medal. He told the Houston Post that Ruby had been in the police station Friday night (November 22, 1963) with a gun. Howard dickered with a national magazine for an Oswald murder story. He got hold of a picture showing the President's brains flying out of the car, and tried to sell it to Life magazine. Ruby's sister, Eva Grant, even accused Howard of leaking information to the DA. It was never quite clear whether Howard was working for Ruby or against him. On March 27, 1965, Howard was taken to a hospital by an unidentified person and died there. He was 48. The doctor, without benefit of an autopsy, said he had suffered a heart attack. Some reporters and friends of Howard's were not so certain. Some said he was "bumped off." Earlene Roberts was the plump widow who managed the rooming house where Lee Harvey Oswald was living under the name O. H. Lee. She testified before the Warren Commission that she saw Oswald come home around one o'clock, go to his room for three or four minutes and walk out zipping his light weight jacket. A few minutes later, a mile away, officer J. D. Tippit was shot dead. Mrs. Roberts testified that while Oswald was in his room, two uniformed cops pulled up in front of the rooming house and honked twice--"Just tit tit," she said. The police department issued a report saying all patrol cars in the area, except Tippit's, were accounted for. The Warren Commission let it go at that. After testifying in Dallas in April 1964, Mrs. Roberts was subjected to intensive police harassment. They visited her at all hours of the day and night. Earlene complained of being "worried to death" by the police. She died on January 9, 1966 in Parkland Hospital (the hospital where President Kennedy was taken). Police said she suffered a heart attack in her home. No autopsy was performed. Warren Reynolds was minding his used car lot on East Jefferson Street in Oak Cliff in Dallas, when he heard shots two blocks away. He thought it was a marital quarrel. Then he saw a man having a great difficulty tucking "a pistol or an automatic" in his belt, and running at the same time. Reynolds gave chase for a short piece being careful to keep his distance, then lost the fleeing man. He didn't know it then, but he had apparently witnessed the flight of the killer (or one of the killers) of patrolman Jefferson David Tippit. Feeling helpful, he gave his name to a passing policeman and offered his cooperation. Television cameras zeroed in on him, got his story, and made him well known. Warren Reynolds, the amiable used car man, was making history. Reynolds was not questioned until two months after the event. The FBI finally talked to him in January 1964. The FBI interview report said, " . . . he was hesitant to definitely identify Oswald as the individual." Then it added, "He advised he is of the opinion Oswald is the person." Two days after Reynolds talked to the FBI, he was shot in the head. He was closing up his used car lot for the night at the time. Nothing was stolen. Later after consulting retired General Edwin Walker (the man Oswald allegedly shot at before he assassinated President Kennedy), he told the Warren Commission Counsel that Oswald was definitely the man he saw fleeing the Tippit murder scene. A young hood was arrested for the murder attempt. Darrell Wayne Garner had called a relative bragging that he shot Reynolds. But Garner had an alibi, Nancy Jane Mooney, alias Betty McDonald, who said Garner was in bed with her at the time he was supposed to have shot Reynolds. Nancy Jane had worked at Jack Ruby's Carousel Club. Garner was freed. Nancy Jane was picked up a week later for fighting with a girlfriend. She was arrested for disturbing the peace. The girlfriend was not arrested. Within hours after her arrest, Nancy Jane was dead. Police reports said she hanged herself with her toreador pants. Reynolds and his family were harassed and threatened. But upon giving the Warren Commission a firm identification of Oswald as being the Tippit murder fugitive, he said, "I don't think they are going to bother me any more." Hank Killam was a house painter who lived at Mrs. A.C. Johnson's rooming house at the same time Lee Harvey Oswald lived there. His wife, Wanda, once pushed cigarettes and drinks at Jack Ruby's club. Hank was a big man, over six feet and weighing over 200 pounds. After the assassination, federal agents visited him repeatedly causing him to lose one job after another. Killam was absorbed by the assassination, even obsessed. Hours after the event, he came home, "white as a sheet." Wanda said he stayed up all night watching the television accounts of the assassination. Later he bought all the papers and clipped the stories about Kennedy's death. Before Christmas, Killam left for Florida. Wanda confessed where he was. Federal agents hounded him in Tampa, Florida where he was working selling cars at his brother-in-law's car lot. He lost his job. Killam wrote Wanda that he would be sending for her soon. He received a phone call on St. Patrick's day. He left the house immediately. He was found later on a sidewalk in front of a broken window. His jugular vein was cut. He bled to death en route to the hospital. There is no mention of Killam by the Warren Commission. A number of FBI documents on Killam relating to the assassination were withheld, along with documents prepared by the CIA. What is clear is that SOMEBODY considered Hank Killam a very important guy. William Whaley was known as the "Oswald Cabbie." He was one of the few who had the opportunity to talk alone with the accused killer of President Kennedy. He testified that Oswald hailed him at the Dallas Greyhound bus station. Whaley said he drove Oswald to the intersection of Beckley and Neches--half a block from the rooming house--and collected a dollar. Later he identified Oswald as his fare in a questionable police line-up. Whaley was killed in a head-on collision on a bridge over the Trinity River, December 18, 1965; his passenger was critically injured. The 83 year old driver of the other car was also killed. Whaley had been with the City Transportation Company since 1936 and had a perfect driving record. He was the first Dallas cabbie to be killed on duty since 1937. When I went to interview the manager of the cab company about Whaley's death, he literally pushed me out of the office, "If you're smart, you won't be coming around here asking questions." Domingo Benavides, an auto mechanic, was witness to the murder of Officer Tippit. Benavides testified he got a "really good view of the slayer." Benavides said the killer resembled newspaper pictures of Oswald, but he described him differently, "I remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline went square instead of tapered off . . ." Benavides reported he was repeatedly threatened by the police who advised him not to talk about what he saw. In mid-February 1964, his brother Eddy, who resembled him, was fatally shot in the back of the head at a beer joint on Second Avenue in Dallas. The case was marked "unsolved." Benavides's father-in-law J. W. Jackson was not impressed by the investigation. He began his own inquiry. Two weeks later, J.W. Jackson was shot at his home. As the gunman escaped, a police car came around the block. It made no attempt to follow the speeding car with the gunman. David Ferrie died of brain hemorrhage Guy Bannister--heart attack One by one Jim Garrison's witnesses met premature deaths Hank Killam's jugular vein was cut and he bled to death The police advised that Jackson should "lay off this business." "Don't go around asking questions; that's our job." Jackson and Benavides are both convinced that Eddy's murder was a case of mistaken identity and that Domingo Benavides, the Tippit witness was the intended victim. Lee Bowers's testimony is perhaps as explosive as any recorded by the Warren Commission. He was one of the 65 witnesses who saw the President's assassination, and who thought shots were fired from the area of the Grassy Knoll. (The Knoll is west of the Texas School Book Depository Building.) But more than that, he was in a unique position to observe some pretty strange behavior in the Knoll area before and during the assassination. Bowers, then a towerman for the Union Terminal Co., was stationed in his 14 foot tower directly behind the Grassy Knoll. He faced the scene of the assassination. He could see the railroad overpass to his right. Directly in front of him was a parking lot and a wooden stockade fence, and a row of trees running along the top of the Grassy Knoll. The Knoll sloped down to the spot on Elm Street where the President was killed. Police had "cut off" traffic into the parking lot, Bowers said, "so that anyone moving around could actually be observed." Bowers made two significant observations which he revealed to the Warren Commission. First, he saw three unfamiliar cars slowly cruising around the parking area in the 35 minutes before the assassination; the first two left after a few minutes. The driver of the second car appeared to be talking into a "mic or telephone"; "he was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other." A third car with out-of-state license plates and mud up to the windows, probed all around the parking area. Bowers last remembered seeing it about eight minutes before the shooting, pausing "just above the assassination site." Bowers also observed two unfamiliar men standing on the top of the Knoll at the edge of the parking lot, within 10 or 15 feet of each other. "One man, middle aged or slightly older, fairly heavy set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. Another man, younger, about mid-twenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket." Both were facing toward Elm and Houston in anticipation of the motorcade. The two were the only strangers he remembered seeing. His description shows a remarkable similarity to Julia Ann Mercer's description of two unidentified men climbing the Knoll. When the shots rang out, Bowers's attention was drawn to the area where he had seen the two men; he could still make out the one in the white shirt: "The darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees." Bowers observed "some commotion" at that spot . . .," " . . . something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around . . . which attracted my eye for some reason which I could not identify." At that moment, a motorcycle policeman left the Presidential motorcade and roared up the Grassy Knoll, straight to where the two mysterious gentlemen were standing. Later, Bowers testified that the "commotion" that caught his eye may have been a "flash of light or smoke." On the morning of August 9, 1966, Lee Bowers, vice president of a construction firm, was driving south of Dallas on business. He was two miles south of Midlothian, Texas when his brand new company car veered from the road and hit a bridge abutment. A farmer who saw it, said the car was going about 50 miles an hour, a slow speed for that road. Bowers died in a Dallas hospital. He was 41. There was no autopsy and he was cremated. A doctor from Midlothian who rode to Dallas in the ambulance with Bowers, noticed something peculiar about the victim. "He was in some strange sort of shock." The doctor said, "A different kind of shock than an accident victim experiences. I can't explain it. I've never seen anything like it." When I questioned his widow, she insisted there was nothing suspicious, but then became flustered and said, "They told him not to talk." Harold Russell was with Warren Reynolds when the Tippit shooting took place. Both men saw the Tippit killer escape. Russel was interviewed in January 1964, and signed a statement that the fleeing man was Oswald. A few months after the assassination, Russell went back to his home near David, Oklahoma. In July of 1965, Russell went to a party with a female friend. He seemingly went out of his mind at the party and started telling everyone he was going to be killed. He begged friends to hide him. Someone called the police. When the policemen arrived, one of them hit Russell on the head with his pistol. Russell was then taken to a hospital where he was pronounced dead a few hours later: cause of death was listed as "heart failure." Among others who died strangely were James Worrell, who died in a motorcycle accident on November 9, 1966. He saw a strange man run from the back door of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination. Gary Underhill was shot. This death was ruled suicide on May 8, 1964. Underhill was a former CIA agent and claimed he knew who was responsible for killing President Kennedy. Delilah Walle was a worker at Ruby's club. She was married only 24 days when her new husband shot her. She had been working on a book of what she supposedly knew about the assassination. William "Bill" Waters died May 20, 1967. Police said he died of a drug overdose (demerol). No autopsy was performed. His mother said Oswald and Killam came to her home before the assassination and her son tried to talk Oswald and Killam out of being involved. Waters called FBI agents after the assassination. The FBI told him he knew too much and to keep his mouth shut. He was arrested and kept in Memphis in a county jail for eight months on a misdemeanor charge. Albert Guy Bogard, an automobile salesman who worked for Downtown Lincoln Mercury, showed a new Mercury to a man using the name "Lee Oswald." Shortly after Bogard gave his testimony to a Commission attorney in Dallas, he was badly beaten and had to be hospitalized. Upon his release, he was fearful for his safety. Bogard was from Hallsville, La. He was found dead in his car at the Hallsville Cemetery on St. Valentine's day in 1966. A rubber hose was attached to the exhaust and the other end extending into the car. The ruling was suicide. He was just 41 years old. Jack Ruby died of cancer. He was taken into the hospital with Pneumonia. Twenty eight days later, he was dead from cancer. David Ferrie of New Orleans, before he could be brought to trial for his involvement in the Kennedy assassination, died of brain hemorrhage. Just what caused his brain hemorrhage has not been established. Ferrie was to testify in the famous Jim Garrison trial, but death prevented him. Dr. Mary Stults Sherman, age 51, was found stabbed and burned in her apartment in New Orleans. Dr. Sherman had been working on a cancer experiment with Ferrie. Another Ferrie associate, Eladio Cerefine de Valle, 43, died on the same day as Ferrie. His skull was split open; he was then shot. DeValle had used Ferrie as a pilot. DeValle had been identifying some men in a photo taken in New Orleans for Jim Garrison. One of the men in the photo was Lee Harvey Oswald. Paul Dyer, of the New Orleans Police force died of cancer. He was the first police officer to interview Ferrie. Martin got sick on the job and died a month later of cancer. He had just interviewed David Ferrie. News reporters were not exempt either. Two lady reporters died strangely. Lisa Howard supposedly committed suicide. She knew a great deal about the "understanding" which was in the making after the Bay of Pigs, between President Kennedy and the Cubans. Marguerite Higgins bluntly accused the American authorities of the November 2nd, 1963 killing of Premier Diem and his brother Nhu. A few months after her accusation, she died in a landmine explosion in Vietnam. On Saturday November 23, 1963, Jack Zangetty, the manager of a $150,000 modular motel complex near Lake Lugert, Oklahoma, remarked to some friends that "Three other men--not Oswald--killed the President." He also stated that "A man named Ruby will kill Oswald tomorrow and in a few days a member of the Frank Sinatra family will be kidnapped just to take some of the attention away from the assassination." Two weeks later, Jack Zangetty was found floating in Lake Lugert with bullet holes in his chest. It appeared to witnesses he had been in the water one to two weeks. Lou Staples, a radio announcer who was doing a good many of his radio shows on the Kennedy assassination, lost his life sometime on Friday night May 13, 1977. This was near Yukon, Oklahoma. He had been having radio shows on the assassination since 1973 and the response to his programs was overwhelming. Lou's death was termed suicide, but the bullet ending his life entered behind his right temple and Lou was left handed. He joined Gary Underhill, William Pitzer and Joe Cooper whose "suicides" were all done with the "wrong hand" shots to the head. Lou had been stating that he wanted to purchase some property to build a home. He was lured out to a wheat field and his life ended there. I have been to the spot where Lou died. Karyn Kupcinet, daughter of Irv Kupcinet, was trying to make a long distance call from Los Angeles. According to reports, the operator heard Miss Kupcinet scream into the phone that President Kennedy was going to be killed. Two days after the assassination, she was found murdered in her apartment. The case is unsolved. She was 23. Rose Cherami, 40, was an employee of Jack Ruby's club. She was riding with two men on a return trip from Florida carrying a load of narcotics. She was thrown from the car when an argument began between her and one of the men. She was hospitalized for injuries and drug withdrawal. She told authorities that President Kennedy was going to be killed in Dallas. After her release from the hospital, she was a victim of a hit and run accident on September 4, 1965 near Big Sandy, Texas. Robert L. Perrin was a gun runner for Jack Ruby. His wife, Nancy testified before the Warren Commission that Robert took a dose of arsenic in August 1962. Guy Bannister was a private detective who was closely involved in the Jim Garrison trial. Guy and his partner, Hugh Ward, died within a 10 day period as the Warren Commission was closing its hearings. Guy supposedly died of a heart attack, but witnesses said he had a bullet hole in his body. George deMohrenschildt was another man who was to give testimony but never made it. DeMohrenschildt, in his final days, became suspicious of everyone around him, even his wife, and was nearing a nervous breakdown some thought. He died of gun shot wounds. The verdict was suicide. But deMohrenschildt was a member of the White Russian society and very wealthy. He visited Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald when they lived on Neely Street. Marina visited the deMohrenschildts when she and Lee Harvey Oswald were having some of their disagreements. Cliff Carter, LBJ's aide who rode in the Vice President's follow up car in the motorcade in Dealey Plaza where President Kennedy was gunned down, was LBJ's top aide during his first administration. Carter died of mysterious circumstances. Carter died of pneumonia when no penicillin could be located in Washington, D.C. in September 1971. This was supposedly the cause of death. Buddy Walthers, Deputy Sheriff, was at the kill sight of President Kennedy He picked up a bullet in a hunk of brain matter blown from the President's head. Walthers never produced the bullet for evidence. Walthers was also at the Texas Theater when Oswald was arrested. In a January 10th, 1969 shooting, Walthers was shot through the heart. In a shootout Walthers and his companion Deputy Alvin Maddox, were fired upon by Cherry, an escaped prisoner. Walthers and Maddox were trying to capture Cherry when Walthers was shot through the heart. Walthers's widow received $10,000.00 for her husband dying in the line of duty. Robert L. Perrin took a dose of arsenic Dr. Mary Stults Sherman was stabbed to death Clay Shaw died of unknown causes Buddy Walthers was shot through the heart by an escaped prisoner Roger Dean Craig died of a massive gunshot wound to the chest Clay Shaw, age 60, died five years after he was charged by Jim Garrison for his involvement in the Kennedy assassination. Some reports have it that he had been ill for months after surgery for removing a blood clot. Other newspaper reports of his death stated he had cancer. It was revealed that Shaw was a paid contact for the CIA. A neighbor reported that an ambulance was seen pulling up to the Shaw home. Then a body was carried in and an empty stretcher brought out. A few hours later, Shaw was reportedly found dead in his home. Then he was given a quick embalming before a Coroner could be notified. It was then impossible to determine the cause of death. On May 15, 1975, Roger Dean Craig died of a massive gun shot wound to the chest. Supposedly, it was his second try at suicide and a success. Craig was a witness to the slaughter of President Kennedy. Only Craig's story was different from the one the police told. Craig testified in the Jim Garrison trial. Before this, Craig had lost his job with the Dallas Police Dept. In 1961, he had been "Man of the Year." Because he would not change his story of the assassination, he was harassed and threatened, stabbed, shot at, and his wife left him. Craig wrote two manuscripts of what he witnessed. "When They Kill A President" and "The Patient Is Dying." Craig's father was out mowing the lawn when Craig supposedly shot himself. Considering the hardships, Craig very well could have committed suicide. But no one will ever know. John M. Crawford, 46, died in a mysterious plane crash near Huntsville, Texas on April 15, 1969. It appeared from witnesses that Crawford had left in a rush. Crawford was a homosexual and a close friend of Jack Ruby's. Ruby supposedly carried Crawford's phone number in his pocket at all times. Crawford was also a friend of Buell Wesley Frazier's, the neighbor who took Lee Harvey Oswald to work on that fatal morning of November 22, 1963. Hale Boggs was the only member of the Warren Commission who disagreed with the conclusions. Hale Boggs did not follow Earl Warren and his disciples. He totally disagreed. Hale Boggs was in a plane crash lost over frozen Alaska. Nicholas J. Chetta, M.D. age 50, Orleans Parish coroner since 1950, died at Mercy Hospital on May 25, 1968. Newspaper reports were sketchy. It was said he suffered a heart attack. Dr. Chetta was the coroner who served at the death of David Ferrie. Dr. Chetta was the key witness regarding Perry Russo against Clay Shaw. Shaw's attorney went into federal court only after Dr. Chetta was dead. Dr. Martin Luther King was murdered, then his assassin not captured until over a year later. Dr. King was the only hope this country had for bringing about equality. The death of Robert Kennedy, only shortly after Dr. King's death on June 5th, 1968, was a brazen act which gave notice to this entire nation. It became imperative, when Senator Kennedy became a threat as a Presidential candidate, that he had to be killed. There is evidence that two persons, a man, and a woman were with the accused killer, but authorities have found no trace of them. Coroner, Dr. Thomas Noguchi told the Grand Jury the powder burns indicated the murder gun was fired not more than two to three inches from Kennedy's right ear. Witnesses testified that Sirhan was never closer than four or five feet to the Senator. I have not, by any means, listed "all" of the strange deaths. I have a complete list in my books. I have listed the most significant ones that occurred after the assassination. The strange deaths after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, in my estimate, numbered over 100, but I am certain I know of only a fraction. Many strange deaths occurred after the assassinations of Dr. Martin Luther King, and Senator Robert F. Kennedy. No one knows the exact number. Penn Jones, Jr. resides in Waxahachie, Texas, publishes a monthly newsletter on the assassination of JFK, Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King and is the author of numerous books on the subject. Home

Mr. Bojczuk, "Just out of interest, which aspects of the 'Harvey and Lee and Harlee' theory does Mr Butler find the most convincing? " All of it. I don't agree at all on your use of personal attacks is reasonable. I didn't report your post since it was directed at another. I just sent a warning to you which I see you have taken the advice. Mr. James R. Gordon has put considerable effort into making the Forum a more objective place for reasonable discussion. I applaud him for this effort. I speculate there were more than two Oswalds, but have little evidence to support the contention. The recent post I made on the Alek Hidell identity keeps nagging me whenever I look at the photo of the alleged Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk. David Josephs did a great job of showing the composite nature of that photo in another post showing, IMO, there is a 3rd Oswald. I posted Josephs work on that. It is very convincing. Now, that is me speculating there is a 3rd Oswald, that might be the source of the Alek Hidell identity, not the Harvey and Lee folks or David Josephs.

Karl, Lee Harvey Oswald was not only a man of many faces, but also a man of many heights. There has been mention of a 5'8, 5'9, 5'9 1/2, 5'10, and 5'11 for the height of Lee Harvey Oswald. There was mention of a 5'3 or 5'4 Oswald in Russia. A good question is who was the hazel eyed, 5'8 Oswald who entered the Marines. I don't think the hazel eyes are a mistake, but point to someone other than Lee and Harvey who had blue to grey eyes. I have forgotten that there are several threads on this. A good one to look at is One Question re: Two Oswalds. David Josephs, in particular, nailed this notion: David Josephs Super Member Members 4,548 posts Gender:Male Interests:History Report post Posted April 18, 2018 A number of the men who looked a bit like Oswald and were somehow involved.... the story of Vagaonov/Tippit and how much he looks like Oswald is quite interesting... At the bottom right is Thomas Arthur Vallee.... of the Chicago Plot. This takes the first image and mirrors each side to create the whole face... Quote And, David Josephs Super Member Members 4,548 posts Gender:Male Interests:History Report post Posted April 18, 2018 Look at their feet... his right and her left are on the same elevation... Using the image as a guide I estimate what a 5'11" man would look like in this image... Josephs doesn't mention Alek Hidell. He has Marina as 5'3. She could be 5'1 with 2 inch heels and therefore 5'3, or 5'2 with 2 inch heels and therefore 5'4. It does not make a significant difference. The lack of significant height difference between the two is telling. This is neither Harvey or Lee, but another person. It's my opinion that the man in the photo is the source of the Alek Hidell identity. I support the Harvey and Lee people. They have extensive factual information for their conclusions. I go a little further out on the speculation limb by saying there was more than two Oswalds. There was a larger Oswald Project. The person in the photo above is neither Lee or Harvey. IMO, he is the man who is part of the picture in the ID cards, Oswald Navy card and Alek Hidell Selective Service card, and the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk. There is little photo evidence for this person after Oswald returns to the US.

Who was Alek J. Hidell? As I have said in other posts, if you are a supporter of the Harvey and Lee theory, it is difficult to determine the differences between Harvey and Lee in photos. There is honest disagreement as people view the photos of Oswald differently. The following photo of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk can illustrate what I am talking about: This looks like a composite photo to me. The right side looks different from the left side. I see on the right-hand side, Harvey Oswald, the man who was shot at the Dallas Police Station. On the left-hand side I see an unknown who looks very much like Harvey Oswald and not at all like Lee Oswald. Could this be a third Oswald in Russia early on in the story? The picture of Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk looks very much like the Navy ID card bearing the photo of Lee Harvey Oswald issued I believe in Nov., 1959. The unknown gives rise to the question could this be a third Oswald and the source of the name Alek J. Hidell? This was the Alek Hidell ID discovered on the day of the assassination. In the 3 photos, Oswald in Minsk, Navy ID, and Selective Service Car, the two people in the composites appear to be the same. Was Alek James Hidell a real person and part of the Oswald Project? What’s your opinion?

No member is allowed to use foul language and/or disgusting expressions. Members would be ill advised to argue as to what defines foul language or disgusting expressions. Every member understands what is and what is not acceptable. Solicitation of goods and/or services is not permitted. This is a Forum for discussion. No member is allowed to make personal insults with regard to another member OR with respect to fellow members opinions. No member is allowed to accuse a fellow member of lying Jim, I think your Mr. B needs a different outlet for his rhetoric. He is clearly in violation of Forum policies on how things should be stated or in his case not stated. Following the lead of Michael Clark, I call upon the monitors to take a look at some of the offensive things he has said: "It is truly disgraceful for Jim to make use of the late Sylvia Meagher to lend his nonsense the credibility it lacks." "and all the other crazy stuff the 'Harvey and Lee' theory proposes" "There's a crazy guy out there who thinks that the Altgens 6 photograph is full of pasted-in people" "He co-opted the late Mark Lane, not to mention Gerald McKnight and David Wrone, to support his brand of brain-dead drivel." "If widely respected researchers such as Meagher, Lane, McKnight and Wrone can get tarred with the tin-foil-hat brush" "but it means that the topic gets to attract more and more lunatics while repulsing those who have better things to do than swim against an increasingly unpleasant tide of paranoid sewage. I don't suppose either Jim or the crazy Altgens 6 guy care too much about any of that, though." "In the general scheme of things, it doesn't matter at all if a handful of gullible people still think that the 'Harvey and Lee' theory has any merit and that a bus-load of fake Oswalds really was running around inside the Texas Theater and blurting out "I'm Oswald, officer!", "I'm Oswald too, officer!", "And me, officer, I'm Oswald!". But it does matter if a large part of the general public can be persuaded that it's only paranoid crazies who question the official line on the JFK assassination. " I ask the question, "Is the Forum a place for this kind of discussion attacking the hard work, mental health, and honesty of a fellow Forum member?". Mr. James R. Gordon has put effort into reforming the Ed. Forum and eliminating the type of discussion by members such as Jeremy Bojczuk. The monitors need to review his most recent post.

In Crossfire, Jim Marrs lists something like over a hundred deaths of people involved somehow or another with the Kennedy Assassination. Some are considered from natural causes, but many are suspicious. For instance, lots of heart attacks and gunshot wounds ruled suicide. There were over 50 deaths by violence and about 20 by heart attack. Is this a normal population? How many people do you know who have died by violence? List of Deaths Date Name Connection with case Cause of death 11/63 Karyn Kupicinet Tv host's daughter who was overheard telling of JFK's death prior to 11/22/63 Murdered 12/63 Jack Zangretti Expressed foreknowledge of Ruby shooting Oswald Gunshot Victim 2/64 Eddy Benavides Lookalike brother to Tippit shooting witness, Domingo Benavides Gunshot to head 2/64 Betty MacDonald* Former Ruby employee who alibied Warren Reynolds shooting suspect. Suicide byhanging in Dallas Jail 3/64 Bill Chesher Thought to have information linking Oswald and Ruby Heart attack 3/64 Hank Killam* Husband of Ruby employee, knew Oswald acquaintance Throat cut 4/64 Bill Hunter* Reporter who was in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63 Accidental shooting by policeman 5/64 Gary Underhill* CIA agent who claimed Agency was involved Gunshot in head ruled suicide 5/64 Hugh Ward* Private investigator working with Guy Banister and David Ferrie Plane crash in Mexico 5/64 DeLesseps Morrison* New Orleans Mayor Passenger in Ward's plane 8/64 Teresa Norton* Ruby employee Fatally shot 6/64 Guy Banister* x-FBI agent in New Orleans connected to Ferrie, CIA, Carlos Marcello & Oswald Heart attack 9/64 Jim Koethe* Reporter who was in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63 Blow to neck 9/64 C.D. Jackson "Life" magazine senior Vicepresident who bought Zapruderfilm and locked it away Unknown 10/64 Mary Pinchot JFK "special" friend whose diary was taken by CIA chief James Angleton after her death Murdered 1/65 Paul Mandal "Life" writer who told of JFK turning to rear when shot in throat Cancer 3/65 Tom Howard* Ruby's first lawyer, was in Ruby's apartment on 11/24/63 Heart attack 5/65 Maurice Gatlin* Pilot for Guy Banister Fatal fall 8/65 Mona B. Saenz* Texas Employment clerk who interviewed Oswald Hit by Dallas bus ?/65 David Goldstein Dallasite who helped FBI trace Oswald's pistol Natural causes 9/65 Rose Cheramie* Knew of assassination in advance, told of riding to Dallas with Cubans Hit/run victim 11/65 Dorothy Kilgallen* Columnist who had private interview with Ruby, pledged to "break" JFK case Drug overdose 11/65 Mrs. Earl Smith* Close friend to Dorothy Kilgallen, died two daysafter columnist, may have kept Kilgallen's notes Cause unknown 12/65 William Whaley* Cab driver who reportedly drove Oswald to Oak Cliff (The only Dallas taxi driver to die on duty) Motor collision 1966 Judge Joe Brown Presided over Ruby's trial Heart attack 1966 Karen "Little Lynn" Carlin* Ruby employee who last talked with Ruby before Oswald shooting Gunshot victim 1/66 Earlene Roberts Oswald's landlady Heart attack 2/66 Albert Bogard* Car salesman who said Oswald test drove new car Suicide 6/66 Capt. Frank Martin Dallas policeman who witnessed Oswald slaying, told Warren Commission "there's a lot to be said but probably be better if I don't say it" Sudden cancer 8/66 Lee Bowers Jr.* Witnessed men behind picket fence on Grassy Knoll Motor accident 9/66 Marilyn "Delila Walle* Ruby dancer Shot by husband after 1 month of marriage 10/66 Lt. William Pitzer* JFK autopsy photographer who described his duty as "horrifying experience" Gunshot rule suicided 11/66 Jimmy Levens Fort Worth nightclub owner who hired Ruby employees Natural causes 11/66 James Worrell Jr.* Saw man flee rear of Texas School Book Depository Motor accident 1966 Clarence Oliver Dist. Atty. Investigator who worked Ruby case Unknown 12/66 Hank Suydam Life magazine official in charge of JFK stories Heart attack 1967 Leonard Pullin Civilian Navy employee who helped film "Last Two Days" about assassination One-car crash 1/67 Jack Ruby* Oswald's slayer Lung cancer (he told family he was injected with cancer cells) 2/67 Harold Russell* Saw escape of Tippit killer killed by cop in bar brawl 2/67 David Ferrie* Acquaintance of Oswald, Garrison suspect and employee of Guy Banister Blow to neck (ruled accidental) 2/67 Eladio Del Valle* Anti-Castro Cuban associate of David Ferrie being sought by Garrison Gunshot wound, ax wound tohead 3/67 Dr. Mary Sherman* Ferrie associate working on cancer research Died in fire (possibly shot) 1/68 A. D. Bowie Asst. Dallas District Attorney prosecuting Ruby Cancer 4/68 Hiram Ingram Dallas Deputy Sheriff, close friend to Roger Craig Sudden cancer 5/68 Dr. Nicholas Chetta New Orleans coroner who on death of Ferrie Heart attack 8/68 Philip Geraci* Friend of Perry Russo, told of Oswald/Shaw conversation Electrocution 1/69 Henry Delaune* Brother-in-law to coroner Chetta Murdered 1/69 E.R. Walthers* Dallas Deputy Sheriff who was involved in Depository search, claimed to have found .45-cal. slug Shot by felon 1969 Charles Mentesana Filmed rifle other than Mannlicher-Carcano being taken from Depository Heart attack 4/69 Mary Bledsoe Neighbor to Oswald, also knew David Ferrie Natural causes 4/69 John Crawford* Close friend to both Ruby and Wesley Frazier, who gave ride to Oswald on 11/22/63 Crash of private plane 7/69 Rev. Clyde Johnson* Scheduled to testify about Clay Shaw/Oswald connection Fatally shot 1970 George McGann* Underworld figure connected to Ruby friends, wife, Beverly, took film in Dealey Plaza Murdered 1/70 Darrell W. Garner Arrested for shooting Warren Reynolds, released after alibi from Betty MacDonald Drug overdose 8/70 Bill Decker Dallas Sheriff who saw bullet hit street in front of JFK Natural causes 8/70 Abraham Zapruder Took famous film of JFK assassination Natural causes 12/70 Salvatore Granello* Mobster linked to both Hoffa,Trafficante, and Castro assassination plots Murdered 1971 James Plumeri* Mobster tied to mob-CIA assassination plots Murdered 3/71 Clayton Fowler Ruby's chief defense attorney Uknown 4/71 Gen. Charles Cabell* CIA deputy director connected to anti-Castro Cubans Collapsed and died afterphysical at Fort Myers 1972 Hale Boggs* House Majority Leader, member of Warren Commission who began to publicly express doubts about findings Disappeared on Alaskan plane flight 5/72 J. Edgar Hoover* FBI director who pushed "lone assassin" theory in JFK assassination Heart attack (no autopsy) 9/73 Thomas E. Davis* Gunrunner connected to both Ruby and CIA Electrocuted trying to steal wire 2/74 J.A. Milteer* Miami right-winger who predicted JFK's death and capture of scapegoat Heater explosion 1974 Dave Yaras* Close friend to both Hoffa and Jack Ruby Murdered 7/74 Earl Warren Chief Justice who reluctantly chaired Warren Commission Heart failure 8/74 Clay Shaw* Prime suspect in Garrison case, reportedly a CIA contact with Ferrie and E. Howard Hunt Possible cancer 1974 Earle Cabell Mayor of Dallas on 11/22/63, whose brother, Gen. Charles Cabell was fired from CIA by JFK Natural causes 6/75 Sam Giancana* Chicago Mafia boss slated to tell about CIA-mob death plots to Senate Committee Murdered 7/75 Clyde Tolson J. Edgar Hoover's assistant and roommate Natural causes 1975 Allen Sweatt Dallas Deputy Sheriff involved in investigation Natural causes 12/75 Gen. Earle Wheeler Contact between JFK and CIA Unknown 1976 Ralph Paul Ruby's business partner connected with crime figures Heart attack 4/76 James Chaney Dallas motorcycle officer riding to JFK's right rear who said JFK "struck in the face" with bullet Heart attack 4/76 Dr. Charles Gregory Governor John Connally's physician Heart attack 6/76 William Harvey* CIA coordinator for CIA-mob assassination plans against Castro Complications from heart surgery 7/76 John Roselli* Mobster who testified to Senate Committee and was to appear again Stabbed and stuffed in metal drum 1977 - A Terrible Year For Many The year 1977 produced a bumper crop of candidates for listing under convenient deaths connected to the JFK assassination - including the deaths of six top FBI officials all of whom were scheduled to testify before the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Topping this list was former number three man in the FBI William C. Sullivan, who had already had a preliminary meeting the investigators for the House Committee. Sullivan was shot with a high-powered rifle near his New Hampshire home by a man who claimed to have mistaken him for a deer. The man was charged with a misdemeanor - "shooting a human being by accident" - and released into the custody of his father, a state policeman. There was no further investigation of Sullivan's death. Louis Nichols was a special assistant to J. Edgar Hoover as well as Hoover's liaison with the Warren Commission. Alan H. Belmont also was a special assistant to Hoover. James Cadigan was a document expert with access to many classified assassination documents, while J.M. English headed the FBI laboratory where Oswald rifle and pistol were tested. Donald Kaylor was the FBI fingerprint expert who examined prints found at the assassination scene. None of these six Bureau officials lived to tell what they knew to the House Committee. Other key assassination witnesses, such as George DeMohrenschildt and former Cuban President Carlos Prio Soccaras, died within weeks of each other in 1977, just as they too were being sought by the House Committee. The ranks of both organized crime and U.S. intelligence agencies were thinned by deaths beginning in 1975, the time of the Senate Intelligence Hearings, and 1978, the closing months of the House Committee. Charles Nicoletti, a mobster connected with the CIA-Mafia assassination plots, was murdered in Chicago, while William Pawley, a former diplomat connected with both organized crime and CIA figures, reportedly committed suicide. Adding official confirmation to rumors that "hit teams" may have been at work was a "Time" magazine report that federal agents had initiated a nationwide investigation into more than 20 gangland assassinations constituting what agents believed was an "open underworld challenge to governmental infiltration of Mafia activities." One FBI source was quoted as saying: Our main concern is that we may be facing a revival of the old "Murder, Inc." days. A "New York News" story concerning this official fear of roving assassination squads even mentions the death of Sam Giancana, who was killed one day before he was to testify about MOB-CIA connections and while under government protection. Just as the House Committee was gearing up its investigation into the JFK assassination, the news media reported the following deaths: Date Name Connection with case Cause of Death 1/77 William Pawley* Former Brazilian Ambassador connected to Anti-Castro Cubans, crime figures Gunshot ruled suicide 3/77 George DeMohrenschildt* Close friend to both Oswald and Bouvier family (Jackie Kennedy's parents), CIA contract agent Gunshot wound ruled suicide 3/77 Carlos Prio Soccaras* Former Cuban President, money man for anti-Castro Cubans Gunshot wound ruled suicide 3/77 Paul Raigorodsky Business friend of George DeMohrenschildt and wealthy oilmen Natural causes 5/77 Lou Staples* Dallas radio Talk Show host who told friends he would break assassination case Gunshot to head,ruled suicide 6/77 Louis Nichols Former No. 3 man in FBI, worked on JFK investigation Heart attack 8/77 Alan Belmont FBI official who testified to Warren Commission "Long illness" 8/77 James Cadigan FBI document expert who testified to Warren Commission Fall in home 8/77 Joseph C. Ayres* Chief steward on JFK's Air Force One Shooting accident 8/77 Francis G. Powers* U-2 pilot downed over Russia in 1960 Helicopter crash (He reportedly ran out of fuel) 9/77 Kenneth O'Donnell JFK's closest aide Natural causes 10/77 Donald Kaylor FBI fingerprint chemist Heart attack 10/77 J.M. English Former head of FBI Forensic Sciences Laboratory Heart attack 11/77 William Sullivan* Former No. 3 man in FBI, headed Division 5, counter- espionage and domestic intelligence Hunting accident 1978 C.L. "Lummie" Lewis Dallas Deputy Sheriff who arrested Mafia man Braden in Dealey Plaza Natural causes 9/78 Garland Slack Man who said Oswald fired at his target at rifle range Unknown 1/79 Billy Lovelady Depository employee said to be the man in the doorway in AP photograph Complications from heart attack 6/80 Jesse Curry Dallas Police Chief at time of assassination Heart attack 6/80 Dr. John Holbrook Psychiatrist who testified Ruby was not insane Heart attack but pills, notes found, 1/81 Marguerite Oswald Mother of accused assassin Cancer 10/81 Frank Watts Chief felony prosecutor for Dallas D.A. Natural causes 1/82 Peter Gregory Original translator for Marina Oswald and Secret Service Natural causes 5/82 Dr. James Weston Pathologist allowed to see JFK autopsy material for HSCA Died while jogging, ruled natural causes 8/82 Will H. Griffin FBI agent who reportedly said Oswald was "definitely" an FBI informant Cancer 10/82 W. Marvin Gheesling FBI official who helped supervise JFK investigation "Long illness" 3/84 Roy Kellerman Secret Service agent in charge of JFK limousine Unknown Following names are the recently known deaths, almost all died of natural causes: Date Name Connection with case Cause of Death 10/92 Jim Garrison Former District Attorney of New Orleans, only one who sued in the JFK assassination case Natural causes ?/94 Perry Russo witness who told he had seen Shaw, Oswald and Ferrie talking about the killing of JFK Unknown 01/95 Rose Kennedy Mother of John F. Kennedy natural causes 01/95 L.C. Graves wrested Ruby's revolver away from him after shooting Oswald natural causes 2/95 Irving L. Goldberg Judge who advised L. B. Johnson on transition of power natural causes 3/95 Philip L. Willis Dealey Plaza Witness, photographer Leukemia 5/95 Evelyn Norton Lincoln JFK's personal secretary natural causes 5/95 Phil L. Barleson Defender of Ruby Heart attack 11/95 Richard Case Nagell CIA agent who claimed he uncovered a "large operation" aimed at killing JFK heart disease 12/95 James W. Altgens Dealey Plaza Witness, press photographer natural causes 1/96 Ralph W. Yarborough Dealey Plaza witness, rode in motorcade natural causes 7/96 Melvin Belli Lawyer of Jack Ruby Suffering stroke and pneumonia 8/96 Charles Brehm Dealey Plaza Witness Unknown 9/96 McGeorge Bundy Top aide to JFK and LBJ Heart attack 10/96 Rufus Youngblood Agent who shielded LBJ during the JFK murder Cancer 10/96 Larry Ray Harris Researcher Car accident 10/96 Lawrence Brantley Sold Jack Ruby the gun used to kill Oswald Complications from surgery Text by Jim Marrs Dates by Jim Marrs and Ralph Schuster

There is an older thread from 2009 that goes into great detail on this subject. It is very informative and helps recall some of the earlier discussion on this.

I wonder what insurance accountants would make of the odds of these people dying. Heart attacks, suicide, and gunshot wounds are the main causes I believe, particularly heart attacks. Wasn't the CIA rumored to have a drug that mimicked a heart attack?

So, in early 1956 Lee is at Tujaques one floor above Harvey who is working at J.R. Michaels one floor below. Tujaques and J. R. Michaels are the same company and this company is owned by people that have intelligence connections. And, these people are the same ones Jim Garrison was interested in in his probe of the Kennedy assassination. What a co-winky-dink! I would think this is not a coincidence. All to often I have speculations based on intuition and little fact. Glad to see this one has a more substantial basis. Teen age spies in training? Hard to believe in America. If it was Russia no one would blink an eye. This means the Oswald Project was a project started early on and ran for years. It makes one wonder how early this project was started? Is the Tujaques/J. R. Michaels connection the first real sign of the Oswald Project? This also indicates that the Oswald Project was not a low level affair. Perhaps, the parameters of what they wanted to do with the Oswald pair is not that clear, but penetration of the Soviet Union seems paramount. I ask these questions because Harvey and Lee must have known each other early on and kept up with each other's history in order to play a central character Lee Harvey Oswald. For instance and as an example did Harvey know Lee's Atsugi history and Lee know Harvey's Taiwan history? As far as I know Harvey was never at Atsugi, Japan and Lee was never at Iwakuni, Japan. It seems they would have to know some of the other guy's basic history in order to successfully portray the other.

These kind of suspicious things even continued after that. It seems there were other episodes of people dying at the time of the ARRB. Ike Altgens was suspicious. 65 year old Ricard Case Nagell gets a letter from the ARRB and zip the next day he is dead of a heart attack. I sure folks could name others.

One of the things I wanted to ask about is this: "Gerard Tujague (Destiny Betrayed – JFK: The Cuba Files) In early 1956, Oswald joined Gerard Tujague’s shipping company. Tujague was also vice-president of the Friends of Democratic Cuba (FDC), which is believed to be a CIA and FBI front that was largely created by Guy Banister and Sergio Arcacha Smith, and was also linked to Clay Shaw. Cuban intelligence identified this organization as a perpetrator of hostile acts against Cuba." During this period wasn't Lee working on a lower lower and Harvey working the next floor up for a period of time. If Tujaque's was an intelligent concern were the two young men in training for their double spy role of one replacing the other to see how well that part of their spy act worked? It seems that's a perfect opportunity to see if they could double each other.

Rick, I don't have much of answer to that. He did ride on the back of the seat. It seems like later he did get into the back seat. There are several pics on that. You'll have to judge for yourself. This photo is hard to judge. Is it Clint Hill on the back of the limousine or another SS agent on the SS security vehicle? I can't make up my mind. This one shows Clint Hill on the back of the seat with one leg in the limo. I am not sure of this photo. and, in this one Clint Hill appears to be getting into the back seat. As far as I know their are no photos of Jackie Kennedy's backside after the assassination. The ones I posted earlier shows her hip and flank. Still wet blood spreads and should have been more noticeable on her outfit than what is shown given the mess in the backseat at the SS service garage. In my opinion it is a set up photo to help with the weak evidence of the case as being presented by the government. Mark Knight, I have always believed that the presentation of red roses was symbolic. President Kennedy could have been assassinated many other ways. Instead the planners chose a public execution in which the President's head would be blown up for all to see. This to was symbolic saying this is what rightfully should happen to all of President Kennedy's ideas and policies. The handbill passed around in Dallas gave the assassins reasons for the killing. They considered him a traitor and tool of the Soviets.

Jim, Here's something that might add a few things to your list on Oswald being connected to intelligence agencies. The article is 55 pages and I feel too long to post here. There is a link to the article by clicking on Paul Bleau. Oswald’s Intelligence Connections: How Richard Schweiker clashes with Fake History Saturday, 29 July 2017 06:00 Written by Paul Bleau Paul Bleau offers an exhaustive review of sixty-four individuals with whom Oswald came in contact, and who had either plausible, probable, or definite intelligence links –– something that Bob Baer seems almost entirely to have missed in the “Tracking Oswald” series. "We do know Oswald had intelligence connections. Everywhere you look with him, there are fingerprints of intelligence." ~Senator Richard Schweiker, The Village Voice, 1975

Paul Bacon points out that the location of the photo is the Secret Service garage. My memory is even fuzzier and I didn't want to make another mistake, but once he mentioned Harrison Livingston that was helpful. Why would anyone stage this photo? Well, in my opinion, it is due to the weakness of the Lone Nut/Single Bullet/Sniper's Nest shooter notions. This photo would show the horror of the blood and gore in the limousine and help nullify any critical thinking. Once one looks at the photos of Jackie Kennedy on that day and notice the lack of any significant bloodstains on her hips and the rear of her skirt one can easily say this was a setup and arranged later. Mark Knight brings in Clint Hill. I didn't think of Hill and it's a good point. Hill would have to have sat in that blood and gore. Nothing is said of his attire or how blood stained his suit was. Jackie Kennedy had time to clean the blood from her hair, legs, and outfit on the way back to Washington. She could have possibly changed. I think she said she wanted to show people what happened to her husband. She wanted people to see how bad it was.

Sorry Joe B, I don't know how I missed this. I would have responded. That was in Sept. 2018 and I could have been on a vacation trip. I do two a year, one in the spring and one in the fall. This photo seems to be staged to match the lone gunman / single bullet / shooting from the Sniper's Nest theories. I don't know what that pink material is. We are supposed to think this is Kennedy's brain tissue. The way it is distributed would match the theories mentioned above and for supporters of the WC this would be conclusive. I don't believe it at all. This appears staged. Jackie could not have sat in those alleged remains and have very little stains on the back of her skirt. Or, for that matter the front of her outfit. The mess in the vehicle doesn't match the blood stains on her outfit. The spot that President Kennedy sat in seems to be cleaned. You can see where blood stains have been wiped away and where others are being wiped on, or the beginning of wiping away.

"Animals and the Afterlife was an incredibly successful book that launched the author onto a very successful career. I had been told that my little story - which occurred more than 30 years ago, with the book being published (I think) in about 2000 - hadn't made the cut, but then I received a free copy of the book and there it was. It was simply a dream involving a dead, beloved dog that could be interpreted as precognitive because it also involved a beloved cat who died shortly thereafter. I am happy for others to read it - I have had what are called After Death Communications that were a hell of a lot more startling than THAT." What? People are bored? Why is anyone talking to this fellow? I think he has run afoul of that rule about intelligent people always believing they are right.

" [the one and only historical Oswald] " There were two Oswalds. The evidence is overwhelming in more than one case. I have been reviewing the military history of the two Oswalds. As I said the black and white documentation is overwhelming and beyond doubt. There was an Oswald, Lee Oswald, at Atsugi, Japan on October 4, 1958. There was another Oswald, Harvey Oswald, at Ping Tung, Taiwan on October 4, 1958. Both were under the name Lee H. Oswald. These two men could not be one man in two different places roughly 800 miles apart on the same day. The documentation for this is at the Harvey and Lee site. It is not fictitious, but real. Harvey and Lee may not have always been working at the same place at the same time, but eventually they would be at the same place or at least close by. Why would Dallas, TX be any different?

"could have the impact of exploding gunpowder." More like the fizzle of wet gun powder. I am surprised there was not more comment on this thread. There has been countless examples of photo fakery exposed on the forum. And, as usual there are disbelievers and believers. Folks are willing to bend reality to deny that which is readily apparent. Well, are you a photogrammetrist? Is to often the cry. Or, there is some manufactured evidence presented to refute the obvious. Here is an example of what Dino Brugioni was talking about. This is an example of a montage according to Brugioni. Brugioni is using the term montage for composite imagery. This photograph showing an Oswald graduating from an aviation electronics and radar operation class at Keesler Air Force Base at Biloxi, MS June 18, 1957. This is Class 24047, Course 27330. Allegedly, this is Harvey Oswald. But, the photo has been altered to show a Harvey Oswald. Can you spot it? This is a closer look: What you usually see and are probably familiar with is the following, which exhibits several of the techniques listed by Dino Brugioni. This magnified and cropped photo avoids showing the weird aspect of the Oswald figure's left shoulder. There has been much discussion on this photo and I believe, if memory is correct, that Jack White first exposed this as an altered image. I suspect from the sloping right shoulder and thicker right neck appearance (which are a characteristics of Lee Oswald) that we are seeing both Harvey and Lee here. Actually, this crop photo exhibits 4 of the techniques name by Brugioni. These are insertion, deletion, montage, and naming.

Jim, I having one or more problems working on a timeline of Oswalds in the Marines. Harvey enters the Marines in Oct.24, 1956 and is out on Sept. 11, 1959. This is nearly 3 years on an enlistment of 3 years. "After LEE Oswald was discharged (March, 1959) he stayed away from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, but was seen in several locations including Coral Gables, Key West, New Orleans, and Cuba. His tall, nice-looking mother terminated her employment at Cox's Dept. Store and moved away from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. She returned to New Orleans and from 1959 through 1961 worked in the ladies department at Goldrings and Holmes Department Stores and at Kriegers. Mrs. Logan Magruder, who knew the tall, nice-looking Marguerite Oswald for over 20 years, saw and talked with her at Kreigers (circa 1959-60). Mrs. Oris Duane saw and spoke with Marguerite at Goldrings (circa 1960). Marguerite Oswald remained in New Orleans, undoubtedly changed her name, and never returned to Ft. Worth. " Do you have a date for when Lee Oswald (the original Lee Harvey Oswald) entered the Marine Corps? The March discharge date implies he joined the Marines somewhere around March, 1956 and was out after 3 years in March, 1959. If this is so then that would make the Ransberger statement correct that Lee Oswald was a PFC in the fall of 1956. The Oswald Ransberger mentions can't be Harvey because he does not have enough time in service to be promoted to PFC. It has to be Lee. And, to be a PFC Lee must have been in the service at least 6 months. Its a mystery. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Jim, "We agree that there is no evidence either Oswald served in Korea, though Nagell did, and ostensibly with the U.S. Army (though perhaps more accurately the Agency). Probably unrelated, but who knows for sure?" True, I don't know of anything anywhere that says Oswald was in Korea. The only reference I know of is to the 512 Military Intelligence Unit (I think I got that right) that had Oswald information. The 512 MI was part of the 1st Calvary Div. stationed at the DMZ and was later changed to the 2nd Inf. Div. in about 1965. "I’ll keep an eye out for other references, but my guess is that “Oswald” was just using the term “Army” as a generic expression for armed forces, assuming, perhaps, the Soviets wouldn’t distinguish between the various branches." I can't see any Marine identifying with the US Army. Most Marines held the Army in contempt as the weaker force. But, you could be right on that and I wont argue that you are wrong. Most of the evidence points to these army photos belonging to Michael Paine. And, even the photos of military folks on a ship could be US Army with boots unbloused at sea. I can see some goofy Army Commander issuing such an nonsensical order in case the ship was sunk. Instead of Marines it could have been GIs going to Korea in early January, 1952. Except that the winter in Korea and Japan is bitterly cold in January, more so in Korea with nights in Korea dropping to way below zero and with the wind chill lowering the temperature to as much as -50 to -75 degrees. Exposed flesh will freeze within 2 minutes. The troops on board are not dressed for winter in those photos. The photos are still questionable. The absence of photos related to the Korean War and being in an artillery unit is puzzling. Perhaps, Michael Paine being a long term photographer simply developed more peaceful, unwarlike tendencies after the Korean War and simply destroyed or threw away any thing involving violence or destruction. I think I am beginning to see a set of Army photos before Korea on ship and a set of photos after Korea in Japan at the Sendai region camp of the 40th Infantry. It's is all about the uniform and caps. I'll explain in a minute. The 40th Division (Michael Paine's unit left for Korea from Japan in January, 1952 and left Korea for Japan after the Armistice on July 27, 1953. Originally, they were stationed in Sendai, Japan which is about a 100 miles, maybe less and just a guess, north of Tokyo, Japan. The area is somewhat mountainous and can be mistaken for Korea. I think I made this mistake. They returned there after the armistice. The troops on ship photos have the soldiers wearing what looks like the M151 patrol cap, which was standard at the time. New regulations for it were issued in 1952. High ranking military officers didn't like the wrinkled appearance of the hat and order that it be stiffened with supports and a cardboard insert. This came about after the armistice and GIs found this difficult to do. The Ridgeway cap was the answer to the problem. The Louisville Cap co. of Lousiville, Ky begin selling a version of the stiffened cap that became popular with the troops. This occurred after the armistice and by the fall of 1953 most were wearing the Ridgeway cap. These were generally bought at a PX for about 2.00 dollars. This photo is of concern for various reasons: These men are wearing the distinctive Ridgeway cap and this means that this photo is after the Armistice of July 1953 when the 40th Div. left for Japan. But, how much after? The appearance of these men could fit any time from 1953 to perhaps 1962. What is questionable about this photo? On the grumpy appearing 1st SGT there is a combat patch and rank insignia on his right shoulder and arm, but no unit patch on his left shoulder that can be seen. I never saw in the military any higher ranking NCO not dressed correctly. The same is true for the other GIs. They appear to be high lighted to the extent any patch, if there, is not seen. You can see where a white US Army tag has been obscured on the left breast of the 1st SGT and you do not see any on the jackets of the other GIs. The white US Army tag was a required tag order after the armistice and was part of the negotiations when the North Koreans demanded it as a means of identifying US soldiers. In almost all of the Army photos the unit patch or white tag is not present. The lack of unit patches and white Army tags? Coincidence or Not? Speculation: Oswald photos mixed in with Paine photos? Not much evidence for this. There is still doubt on these photos. But, there is enough evidence to say the Army photos of the 300 photos said to belong to the Paines are Paine photos. This casts doubt on anything I have said about Rome or Japan and an Oswald. It doesn't disprove, but simply calls in to question those statements credibility.

Jim, I have been doing some background checking. Michael Paine entered the Army in 1951 and served two years. He was assigned to the 40th Inf. Division combat artillery. In 1952 they were in Japan then Korea for 52 and 53. Nowhere in all those Army photos did I find one photo related to the Korean War or the fighting or destruction related to the Korean War. No where in those photos did I find any related to a artillery unit. Not a single artillery piece. The 40th Division was in the thick of the fighting until the war ended in July, 1953. The Ridgeway cap, a very distinctive cap, was introduced into the army in 1953 about the middle of the year I think. It is a flat crowned, rather stiff hat. The Army did not change its uniform appearance from 1953 through the late 1950s. So, it is difficult to tell whose photos these are. Paine's? No war footage or artillery photos say these are not the photos of Michael Paine. The photos of soldiers on a ship is more than likely photos of Marines on the Bexar not GIs traveling to Japan by ship. There are several things that say it is unlikely these are Paine photos. But, there is no information that an Oswald was ever in Korea. Oswald said he served with the US Army in Japan and the Philippines. Not a word about Korea. The majority of these photos appear to have Korean landscapes. The Japanese photos could be Paines or Oswalds. One would have to be able to read Japanese to determine if these photos were from Atsugi, Yokohoma, Tokyo, or other small towns around Atsugi and not towns around where the 40th Division was stationed while in Japan. Another difficulty is determining whether the Asians shown is various photos are Korean or Japanese except by the appearance of languages on signs. The written Korean language is very distinctive and is different in appearance from Chinese or Japanese. I thought the Ridgeway Cap would be the separator in these photos. But, that two is iffy. The Ridgeway came into general use for the US Army in mid to late 1953. This would be at the tail end of Michael Paine's Army career. So, I'm just going to have to ignore this because I can't make the call.