Benjamin Cole

OK, I will construct a scenario I do not agree with...but here goes: The CIA is running LHO, and has him in play. But LHO wants some real assignments, and some money. He is moving boxes around at the TBSD, hardly any better than radio-factory work in Russia. OK, so the hit squad from Miami approaches LHO. They give him the respect he does not get from HQ, but they also tell him HQ is behind the JFKA, due to Cuba and other JFK weakness. The Miami guys need LHO as a decoy, and a patsy, and they promise him a new life in South America, as a bleached blond with a nose job. LHO's job is to fire a rifle from the Sixth Floor, and leave behind evidence to throw off the investigation, and then leave the TSBD to get a plane ride to Buenos Aires. The real assassins are on the Dal-Tex roof. The Grassy Knoll smoke-and-bang is another diversion But LHO's ride from the TBSD goes bad. Maybe something so trivial as a car breaks down. LHO looks for his ride...concludes he has been hung out to dry. LHO goes home gets his gun, sadly runs into Tippit, then hides in the Texas Theater...then LHO gets gunned down to keep him quiet. Well, it is a scenario outside the box....

Kilroy (was here): I like to say there isn't single straight line in the entire JFKA. I am working on a story regarding Connally's clothing from that day. A pulp fiction novel is more believable. By far.

I largely concur with you. You cannot make LHO the patsy (at least immediately) if he is on the sidewalk waving at the President. True, the rifle alone might lead to him being considered a suspect and a co-conspirator. But then the government is left with finding the other conspirators. LHO's mysterious wallets and mail order guns add to the clues. Larry Hancock, based upon real and circumspect research, posits the real shooters did not care if it became known there were multiple shooters or not. They just wanted to kill JFK and escape. Which they did. Which leaves LHO as something of a fifth wheel. Unfortunately, the CIA guy in charge of assassinations, Bill Harvey, conducted paperless meetings with oblique language, and even created fake paper trails. So reading through documents is likely a dead end. At his late date, we end up in a cul-de-sac , with only speculation as to the actual perps....

I think I agree. So...if LHO was just doing his job and was totally uninvolved with the JFKA...then why go home and get his pistol? And if LHO knew nothing about the JFKA...why did Ruby gun him down? It sure looks like LHO was involved...probably as a patsy, but perhaps as part of multiple shooters at JFK. Somebody was shooting at JFK from the TSBD.

"So...what if all those elements were true and not fictional, made up after the fact. Step into that box and revisit the Walker shooting, the photos, the letter and ask yourself, is this Oswald really becoming a radical, or is it all a process for building his value for intelligence purposes, either collections or propaganda? And if you pick one, think about what was supposed to happen next if it wasn't just Oswald becoming a radical - and why the WC didn't go full bore with painting the above picture for the public?"--LH Can you re-phrase the question? My take is there was a biography build on LHO. He himself was conflicted or just cynical, or even just youthful and academically uneducated (though certainly smart enough). Maybe willing to change views for a new paymaster. In a troubled marriage.

Sandy L- Thanks for your comments. 1. The wallet. Oh, I agree, that wallet was planted at the Tippit murder scene. There is the video, and the FBI agent commentary. The evidence inside the wallet is too pat for a comic book, let alone a pulp detective novel. And then to be left at the scene? So who planted the wallet? If a small CIA-assassin-squad came from Miami to Dallas and LHO was not in the loop...the assassination squad came to Dallas prepared with a fake wallet? Maybe so....seems like a stretch. 2. https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27058-general-edwin-walker-lee-harvey-oswald-the-bad-shot-and-the-dog-that-didn’t-bark / The above is my take on the Walker shooting. I contend the Walker shot was obviously an intentional miss, and a biography builder. Most likely LHO had a ride. I have no proof, but hear me out. 3. OK, if LHO knew nothing at all about the JFKA on Nov. 22, totally clueless and just working his day job packing boxes (although LHO was likely a military-COA intel aset in Russia, New Orleans and elsewhere)...why did he leave the TBSD and take a taxi, go home and get his gun? Why did LHO not assume some punks or right-wing kooks, mobsters, etc., had taken a potshot at JFK, and it did not concern him? Sheesh, he could have walked home from the TBSD if he just wanted to leave work (less than two miles, and LHO was 24, and the day was not hot). 4. If LHO knew nothing at all about the JFKA, what beans could he spill? LHO might be able to convince someone somewhere he had in the past been a military-intel asset, or informant, although no records of that. Then what? LHO, with able counsel, might have been able to avoid a guilty verdict. But so what? He had no beans to spill (if totally uninvolved), except that he had been a government informant, but can't prove it? No, the reason LHO had to be killed and quickly...logically...was that he knew a lot about what happened on Nov. 22. That implies participation. I posit unwitting participation, but enough participation he had to be eliminated. Larry Hancock may soon flesh out this troubling question, of LHO's role in the JFKA. This is my take: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/27073-towards-a-simple-plausible-yet-explanatory-conspiracy-theory/ That's my story and I am sticking with it.

I agree.

I am eagerly awaiting Red Bird. The connection between LHO and the Miami hit squad needs the sort of reasonable, informed, circumspect, grounded explanation that a Larry Hancock can deliver. It sure seems LHO was involved in the JFKA, but at what level? We will just have to wait and see what Red Bird says. 1. But what about that wallet at the Tippit crime scene? 2. My contention is that the Walker shooting was a test of LHO, and an intentional miss, and a biography builder. Meaning someone was directing LHO with an intention to later involve LHO in....? Was it happenstance that somebody in the CIA had plans for LHO, while the CIA-Miami hit squad were doping out their plans? 3. It sure looks like either LHO was guilty, or deduced he was the patsy within moments of the shooting. Going home to get his gun, even by taxi. Does this suggest LHO was deeply involved in the JFKA? 4. LHO knew enough that somebody wanted him dead. That suggests involvement in the JFKA too. If LHO was just working his day job, knew nothing Nov. 22, then why murder him? There were no beans for LHO to spill. And to re-affirm, I do not suspect Larry Hancock is a powerful and sinister force in America.

What an entirely depressing article.

Chuck S- Yes, Jeff Morley is another dedicated, smart and serious JFKA researcher. The CIA, beyond debate, did not cooperate with the WC or HSCA investigations, and in fact engaged in obfuscation. If a CIA hit team was dispatched from Miami to Dallas, rogue or otherwise, I contend they must have worked with LHO. LHO was involved enough that somebody wanted him dead post-JFKA, and also many witnesses saw shots fired from the TBSD, in which LHO worked, and also in which nobody saw LHO at the time of the gunshots. LHO's behavior post-JFKA strikes me as someone who is running, and that means he is guilty or had deduced he was a patsy. I suspect the latter. Side note: One thing is you can't have it is both ways. "LHP was totally innocent, but was also running to the Texas Theater to meet a co-conspirator." That doesn't make sense. If LHO was in fact trying to meet a ride, getaway man or contact at the TT, then he must have been a party, unwitting even, to the JFKA. That also meant co-conspirators knew how to tip off the DPD as to LHO's location. My guess is LHO was simply trying to hide in a dark theater, and wait until dark. The best, bad option. His brains may have been fried at the point.

Ron B. Of course, you are correct. I was speaking tongue-in-cheek about Larry Hancock as a powerful, sinister figure. I concur, at least three shots were fired at JFK and JBC more rapidly that can be accounted for by a single-shot bolt action rifle. In my book, that is a conspiracy. Despite the best efforts of shrewd and tireless researchers, the outlines of the JFKA conspiracy are unclear. We have suspects....

I have just re-read Tipping Point, and think it a very worthwhile read, even if it will disappoint some readers as an incomplete picture of the JFKA. The reason the picture is uncomplete is because the real picture is incomplete. We know why the picture is incomplete, and it is not Larry Hancock's fault (unless Hancock is a far larger and more sinister figure than imagined). I have a theory that no JFKA theory can proven, but I cannot prove my theory.

Ditto. The important thing is first, and that is several days of discussion about AOC's dress. Now that that is out of the way, perhaps we can discuss transparency in democracy and disclosure as required by law.

Chuck S.-- Yes, it seems probable, close to certain, that the CIA was using LHO prior to the JFKA, and building a biography around him, based upon the work of Newman and others. I suspect the CIA's plan was to use LHO in a false-flag fake (intentionally unsuccessful) JFKA. However, Larry Hancock, who has spent a long time on the JFKA and also looked at a lot of primary materials, is more prone to a JFKA explanation that a group working out of Miami's giant CIA base, and Cuban exiles, organized a real JFKA. See his Tipping Point book. The connection between LHO and the Miami hit squad is muddy, even with Hancock's insights. Moreover, there is no provable connection between the Miami hit squad and CIA HQ----Bill Harvey's standard operating procedures were to keep no paper records, to speak in oblique terms, and create false paper trails to boot. In addition, many documents have been destroyed in the meantime. Dulles, Angleton, Harvey, Helms, et al, are all dead now, and cannot be cross-examined. Of course, one can have dark suspicions, but suspicions are not facts. As a result, it is opaque whether the CIA hit on JFK was sanctioned even tacitly at higher levels, or was a rogue operation. Larry Hancock, if I read Tipping Point correctly, is open to the idea the JFKA was tacitly sanctioned at higher levels. I still hold out that the JFKA could have been a CIA HQ tacitly sanctioned false-flag but fake assassination attempt that got out control. Unfortunately, I am limited to what is online for my research, as I live offshore. That's my story and I am sticking with it.

I am with Joe B. I don't understand the photo or the Ida Dox drawing at all, or the x-rays or anything. The Parkland doctors said there was a blowout in the back of the head. They have no reason to lie, and seem earnest. Then you see this photo and drawing, or the x-rays. Like everything about the JFKA, it is screwy.

Paul- Certainly, distrust of official narratives in the JFKA is warranted. I cannot prove my views. But I am cautious about JFKA counter-narratives that require multiplying numbers of complicit actors, such as (in the immediate example), the officers in the Texas Theater arrest. OK, maybe the three or four officers involved in the arrest, and possibly a few theater patrons, lied and kept quiet over the years. Then the DPD fabricated his statement he had a pistol, requiring an additional set of XXXXX. Others participated in planting a gun on him. At some point, I sense credulity is stretched. The official narrative, regarding LHO arming himself, seems likely true.

Hi Paul: Maybe the "LHO was armed" story was fabricated, but there seems to have been a lot of witnesses in the Texas Theater. LHO appears to have acknowledged he was armed in the (unrecorded) interviews with the DPD. We do have a conflict in much the rehashing of the LHO stories. 1. If LHP was totally innocent on Nov. 22, not a party to anything, just doing his job that day (although an erstwhile intel asset) then why would he rendezvous with anybody post-JFKA? There would be nobody to rendezvous with. 2. OK, if LHO was a party to the real assassination, maybe somebody would be at the Texas Theater to take him offshore or to a safehouse. But that strikes me as a weak plan. A simple car leaving Dealey Plaza would work a lot better. There were no road-blocks out of Dallas. 3. If (as I suspect) LHO believed he was part of a false-flag op to unsuccessfully assassinate the President, then likely he would not meet anyone at the Texas Theater, correctly deducing he had just been made the patsy in a real assassination by his colleagues. LHO appears to have known that he had been made the patsy almost immediately, which is why he went home, had the taxi drop him a few blocks from his room, and then got his revolver. LHO's best option at that point, but still very bad option, would be to hide in the theater until dark outside. LHO's frame of mind was fried at that point, and so he snuck into the theater, rather than just paying. My guess is that if the DPD was "in on the JFKA" they could have shot LHO dead in the theater. That's my story I am sticking with it.

If we assume that LHO was a patsy and knew it, then the last place he would go would be to a pre-arranged rendezvous with the people who just made him a patsy. He might well determine that would be a lethal meeting. My guess is LHO figured out he was the patsy rather quickly, and vamoosed by the means available, and then got his gun. He knew he could not stay at home, or on city streets. A movie theatre, darkened, might the best of bad options. IMHO, LHO's leaving the TBSD and getting a gun have always signalled either guilt or involvement in the JFKA. If we rule out guilt, that means LHO was the patsy, but figured it out quickly on the basis of a few gunshots and sirens. To me, that suggests LHO was involved in some event that was supposed to happen, such as a false-flag but unsuccessful JFKA. But I am re-reading Larry Hancock's Tipping Point for pointers. The connection between LHO and a small assassination team imported into Dallas from Miami, on a very compartmentalized basis, is difficult to ascertain.

My mind is unorganized, and I still don't understand 9/11.

David A.-- My understanding of controlled building implosions is that they require multiple charges on every floor, and associated wiring to time the charges. There were 110 floors on each of the WTC big towers, and 57 floors in #7. I have no great insights to the 9/11 disaster. But when it comes to conspiracies, the smaller the number of participants, the better.

W- I handle most of your q's in Verily, a great deal of complicity after the fact---Sylvia Meagher's Accessories After the Fact-1967 still holds a lot of water. That's how obvious the post-JFKA cover-up was. Larry Hancock suggests the reason the post-JFKA cover-up was so obvious, mangled and crude is that there was, in fact, not much in the way of pre-JFKA planning. I defer to Hancock as a default position. That said, my take (different perhaps from Hancock's) is LHO was being run by the CIA, and they planned to use a witting LHO in a false-flag fake JFK assassination attempt. Ergo, the biography build on LHO. Cuban exiles piggybacked on the false-flag op, and made it real. Yes, the WC was a cover-up, and much that the CIA has done since in media, etc. The FBI destroyed and manufactured evidence (CE 399). This cover-up has allowed a mythology to build, that the JFKA itself must have been a very sophisticated operation. But a true and dreadnought investigation starting on Nov. 22 might have cracked the case within a few days. If LHO had lived, he might eventually have spilled the beans. As a basic premise, my take is that successful conspiracies, especially on the supremely explosive topic of assassinating a US president, require fewer, rather than many, participants. The versions of the JFKA requiring dozens of malicious and witting participants, high and low across many organization lines....well, for me, they just don't hold water. Think small!

"No one has posted any evidence here debunking Prouty's "hypothesis" that Ed Lansdale was involved on some level in the JFK assassination op."--W. Not to belabor a point, but this comes close to "guilty until proven innocent." Here is a book: Mafia Kingfish: Carlos Marcello and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy by John H. Davis, c 1989. I just read this book, very readable. Free online, Internet Archives. Many connections between LHO, Ruby and Marcello, lots of documented bad blood between the Marcellos and Kennedys, and of course Mafia in bed with the CIA. Many eyewitnesses saw someone who looked liked LHO meeting with so-and-so, thus indicating a connection. David Ferrie was spending weekends at Marcello's manse before Nov. 22. That is sort of strange. What in the heck could the oddball eccentric gay Ferrie have in common with rich mobster Marcello? No one has debunked that Marcello was the animating force behind the JFKA. Was Marcello the animating force? I doubt it. But I can't debunk it either.

OK, this is speculation, but here goes: DA Phillips concocts a false-flag but failed assassination attempt plan on the JFK, to be blamed on the leftie-loner-loser-commie LHO. Phillips cannot just do this, but needs tacit approval, unwritten etc., from above. He gets it. But then Angleton, or someone, plants a couple of very angry guys (Cubans) on Phillips false-flag team. Maybe even with no instructions, but a sense of what might happen. Ergo, LHO cooperates, expects to escape Dealey Plaza with help, but figures out JFK was shot for real and he is the de facto patsy, and goes AWOL. Even Phillips does not know what really happened. Maybe only the two guys know what really happened at the JFKA. The CIA concludes they have to eliminate LHO, but need plausible deniability, and hire the Mob. The CIA then spends decades scrubbing records and inventing false narratives, and, btw, destroying Garrison. Wrecking Richard Sprague, etc. That's my story I am sticking with it.

Best of luck, Pat. You are a top researcher, devoted to finding real facts, and letting the chips fall where they may.

W- I am on board that large parts of the M$M are CIA apparatchiks. At CNN they dispense with the charade, and just hire ex-CIA'ers directly and put them on the air. I also believe more than one gun was used to shoot at JFK and JBC that day, based upon research on primary materials. But really, you are convinced, beyond reasonable doubt, that the photo in question is Lansdale? Prouty implies the two Dallas police are fakes and in on the gag, by the "casual" way they are holding their weapons. Not much to go on, and yet that implies yet two more people who have information regarding the JFKA, and who have to be trusted to keep quiet. The "Lansdale" in the picture---he would walk around Dealey Plaza in the immediate aftermath of an presidential assassination he plotted? With cameras blinking everywhere? That is spycraft? "Lansdale" doesn't even doff a fedora (still worn back then) and sunglasses? A little brazen, no? If the three tramps were truly involved in the JFKA, and the two Dallas "cops" in on the gag, why parade the trio in public as suspects? Why not squeeze the three men into a car near the railroad cars-tracks and send them on their way? Other probable participants in the JFKA simply melted onto the crowds, such as the phoney "Secret Service agent" accosted by Dallas police officer Joe Smith and Dallas Sheriff Seymour Weitzman. Why parade tramps around in public? In ordinary civilian clothing, the "tramps" could have simply walked away from the scene, melted into the crowds. Nothing about this makes sense. If we applied such loose standards to LHO as are applied in the Lansdale Hypothesis, we would have LHO convicted and hung on the JFKA in two minutes.