Ron Ege

Ben, interesting. Just wondering, and I do understand that it is just your speculation, what your estimated probability of Oswald assuming that role and actually carrying it out on 11/22/63? 'Tis been a long time, but didn't Oswald ask one of his fellow workers that day, something to the effect of, "What is all the commotion (people gathering) about?" - obviously, before the motorcade passed before the TSBD. And whoever it was, told him that the president was coming, and Oswald allegedly said something like, "I see"? I agree - it sort of beggars believe that he didn't know; it that conversation did happen, then maybe if it, indeed did, he was just "polishing" his alibi? I guess I'm "hung up" on how Oswald could've done any shooting with the MC, since I've yet to read any incontrovertible proof that he brought it to work that day or any day previous. And that's not even getting into the question of whether or not ever actually ordered/had possession of it. I'm pretty sure someone here - can "straighten me out".

David, thank you. Given everything we come to discover over the past almost six decades, much attributable to your prodigious efforts, I am not understanding the hesitance of some to accept that the windshield was switched. Indeed, as you point out, "best evidence" must be ignored/disregarded to stay with the government's alternative. If the official story were to be factual, would not those in charge have taken extreme close-up, multiple, multiple photographs of the original windshield still installed on the vehicle, from every conceivable angle, from inside and outside, along with reams and reams of scientific analysis that LHO's MC, almost to the exclusion of all other rifles/ammunition caused the damage, thereby proving, incontrovertibly, to the public that ALL the shots could only have been fired by Oswald, from behind the limo? Certainly, many here are acutely aware of many much more complicated "shenanigans" that were conducted by various entities, as part of the coverup. "Windshield switching" would seem quite low on the "difficulty scale".

Tony, exactly. On Aug. 8, 2022, in the "Evidence Oswald was on the on the first floor before and after the shooting" thread, Gil Jesus aptly describes how Oswald could not have been on the second floor, let alone the sixth floor. There, Gil presented the fact that Truly told Fritz that almost immediately after the shooting, that he, Truly, entered the TSBD with Baker, seeing Oswald "near the first-floor storage room." Next, Campbell, when asked about his actions immediately after the shots, reported that when he entered, confirming Truly, that was where he, Campbell, saw Oswald. Then, you adroitly point out that the reporter uses the term "storage room" - when he described his actions, looking for the availability of a phone on the TSBD first floor. After that, did not Oswald say that he directed someone to a phone, mistakenly, if memory serves, believing it was someone in authority? Even if, as you suspect, Baker took a quick look at the fire escape before entering the TSBD with Truly, Oswald does not have enough time to rush down from the sixth floor - sight unseen/unheard by anyone. And one has to completely discount Truly's first day account, in order to believe his later "story'. As Gil laid out, NO second-floor encounter. Lastly: Chief Curry, on Nov. 23, 1963: "I don't know whether it would be enough to convict him or not. If we can put his prints on the rifle, that would certainly connect him with the rifle." The FBI evidently put his prints on the rifle the next day, after his death, in the Miller Funeral Home in Fort Worth" Chief Curry - Nov. '69: "No one has ever been able to put him [Oswald] in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle in his hand." "Wd don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, AND NEVER DID." "Case Closed"? Don't think so.

I also, and I'll wager others do, also. I don't believe Fritz would make the statement, not having thought through the entirety of his interrogation. Up close and personal, he noted Oswald's "cool". And based on video evidence of Oswald' demeanor and answers to the questions during the press "barrage" - interested observers would, I believe, agree with Fritz. Even without all the pretty obvious evidence which we are now aware of - that LHO had quite a few more "intelligence connections" - than the "average bear" - including most ex-military.

Pat, Your last thought ". . . Perhaps Oswald had been warned that something was gonna happen . . . " Does that take us back to perhaps, as has been theorized, Oswald being set up as a part of a false flag operation - and what you have hypothesized was perhaps his perplexed behavior when he began to realize that there was more going on, whatever he had been told (that "need to know" thing), than he was led to believe? LHO's behavior upon leaving the TSBD and what has been pieced together between then and his arrest at the Texas Theatre bespeaks of him purposely driven by the then extant circumstances, as he viewed them to be, to adopt a prearranged contingency plan - only to eventually determine (his arrest) that he'd "been had". Hence, "I'm just a patsy." IMHO, at the tender age of 24, demonstrably, especially considering being charged with the shooting of a police officer and the POTUS, his overall behavior, from the arrest until he was gunned down, rivaled that of "007's" calm, cool, and collectiveness - when Bond found himself suddenly caught up in yet another of his not necessarily expected jams".

David, thanks. Perhaps I am understanding. Are you meaning by ". . . even WITH the Single-Bullet theory intact", as you proffer it and believe to be? Apparently, I'm not "firing on all cylinders" because if the CTers believed the SBT was intact, they could not be such and therefore could not pretend there was a Badge Man - or am I missing something? Could a CTer be that much "out of it" - really?

Gil Jesus did a nice job (Evidence that Oswald was on the first floor), pinpointing LHO's whereabouts, just prior to the assassination. Was Lee Harvey Oswald Really Guilty (gil-jesus.com) And didn't LHO even say that he saw two Negroes when he was in/near Domino room, one of whose names he didn't know and whose admissions as to where they were at the time, tracked with what Oswald said? Cool assassin, that Ozzie. Waits until nearly the last minute before he skedaddles up to the sixth floor - which had to be much after witnesses would eventually report seeing someone in the "sniper's lair". Meanwhile, we have Gil's multiple witnesses placing him on the first floor.

Sean, Is this perhaps where you dug out the photograph? Warren Commission Exhibit CE-399 - The Magic Bullet (jfk-info.com) In another thread, "JFK Secret Service Agent: hole in windshield of limo!", there is a discussion about the "magic bullet's" 6.5 MM ammunition velocity dynamics, suggesting that its gradually reduced velocity, as it passed first through JFK, then through Connally's chest, striking his rib, before passing through his wrist could've accounted for the apparent minimal damage, i. e., the "pristine" appearance of the round. If that's possible, I am looking forward to the discussion of how CE 572, being shot into cotton wadding and therefore, seemingly, not incurring the exact same gradual velocity reduction scenario, managed to look almost identical to CE 399. Perhaps one of the physicists among us will be able to share a "compare and contrast" study with us?

Joe, I as well - but then, just ma-a-ybe we really not concern ourselves with further elucidation - since the assassination is all wrapped up here: LOL. See This Sniper Rifle? It Was Used To Assassinate President John F. Kennedy | The National Interest

Sean, thanks. Have seen before - just not in the exact format you've presented. Is it not amazingly explanatory how CE 399 and CE572 appear quite nearly the same? Weren't there additional examples of rounds being fired through a goat's rib, with CE 583 selected as the one least affected? If one were not convinced there was some "chicanery" afoot already, then CE 856 should remove all doubt. Anyway, there is this. Edgewood Arsenal Bullet Tests : The JFK Assassination (22november1963.org.uk) We may hear from detractors.

OK - got it! 👌

Sandy, Thank you. I concur with all. If I remember, some of LHO's fellow marines referred to him as "Oswaldskovitch" because of his intense display of support for all things Russia and Marxism/communism. By the by, good luck with that "act" - especially as a U. S. Marine with a secret security clearance and yet continuing on active duty. Someone was "winking and nodding". Otherwise, he would've been "out on his ear" from the Corp. My service, the USAF wouldn't have tolerated it - and for sure - nor would the USMC. Your apt take that he was not a violent man fits his other nickname "Ozzie Rabbit". A John Wayne stereotype marine, Oswakd was not. Maybe you've run across one, but I'm stilling looking for that first "violent" rabbit.

Marjan. I am curious to when, where, and how Oswald was able to develop the shooting skill that he was alleged to have demonstrated that day - especially since world class, expert riflemen (snipers some, with "nerves of steel") were unable to replicate it. Developing such skills, would've taken untold hours upon hours of practice and beaucoup ammunition - neither of which Oswald was ever known or been reported to have had. Two USMC rifle qualification opportunities at non-moving targets, the last being well before 11/22/63, would hardly have "done the trick". Oswald also would've needed a similar "moving target" during his "practice sessions".

Sandy, Agree with the "no accent". Interesting, interplay of his time in TX, NY, and LA, and . . . . ? Apparently, that combination "erased" any of the usual accents we've come to know. I lived in IN, AZ, CA, TX, MS, SC, ND, MD, MI, GA, OH, and WA. Have traveled extensively and spent at least a little bit of time in the rest of the states. Teaching middle school for 17 years here in northern IN, most of the Black students said "aks" for "ask". I've never heard it anywhere else, unless it was an unintentional misspeak, and the person always corrected it right away. So, I'm thinking that it is simply an ingrained part of the regional dialect. In the kids' defense, I often hear, "I doe not" for "I do not" - and it goes uncorrected by the person - many of whom are well-educated - some are even TV and/or radio announcers. When I lived in Charleston, SC, in the early-mid '60s, my landlord spoke Geech. After knowing the man two and a half years, I still understood only half of what he said. I see Oswald as being articulate, especially considering his level of formal education. It's one thing to read extensively, therefore building a reading and listening vocabulary. Incorporating that into a speaking vocabulary takes some practice.

Agree. Absolutely aware of the compartmentalization. Just wasn't sure if Sandy ruled out any Oswald foreknowledge of the plot. So, assuming he was set up for that, isn't it also possible that the alleged Walker shooting was also contrived, again, as part of the "Oswald Myth". Yes, I know that too remains contentious. It's one thing to follow orders, masquerading as a FPCC "official" so as to gain intelligence about that organization - but to me, considering Oswald's history relative to his personality/behavior/demeanor, to leap from that to - "Sure boss. I'll go get rid of that pesky-wing ex general for ya". Well, . . . . Since Ruby was so "helpful" during the press conference, regarding the organization's correct name, maybe he talked Ozzie into it? 🤪 LHO seemed smart enough to realize that he'd be taking the chance that he himself would be shot, during or after the attempt, or in the least, be arrested and tried for attempted murder. So much then, for watching his daughters grow up. Setting him up for the JFK Assassination surely was more complicated than implicating him for the Walker attempt.

I guess it depends on one's sense of humor. Anyhow, if valid, then for me the scenario is at least, interesting. Going from memory, was it not reported by someone that Oswald sat next to two people, maybe three, one being a pregnant woman - moving from seat to seat, in a what, 600 seat theatre, with roughly 20 patrons. Can any of our more learned members provide a link?

Sandy, thanks. Yes, your false flag example. Yes, to goal, trust, and implication.

👌

Sandy, Do you see Oswald naive enough to have believed in a false flag op as presented by whomever, therefore participating in it, seeing it as his duty to do so? Whether or not he was involved, I would agree that he did not know that JFK would actually be assassinated. When he realized - oops - time for that, "made up on the fly escape plan".

Sandy, your take makes a great deal more sense than the official version - and it is not complicated. Thanks.

If the evidence showed that is what happened, beyond a reasonable doubt, I would agree. Unless someone can provide that, I am going to remain skeptical of that scenario. I believe there is enough reasonable doubt to preclude it. We'll agree to disagree.

Absolutely not. From military shooting and now pleasure shooting at the target range experience, my ears would be ringing, big time. Making the alleged shots in the time allotted, by a basically non-experienced shooter, with an antiquated difficult to operate bolt action rifle, along with a misaligned scope, at a moving target on a down grade is a nonstarter. One would have to be that well known "bridge buyer" to believe it. Anybody who would say that is well - making things up.

I do understand your point. I cannot know the exact role that Sandy has in mind for Oswald. That said, if as Sandy believes (I think he does anyway), that Oswald really did not own the rifle, then he did not order it. Now what are we left with? Heck, I don't know the plotters' plan either, but one would think that there would've been a back-up to a back-up plan, especially considering what appeared to be the plotter's foiled assassination attempts in two other cities. Was the plot so much "smoke and mirrors" that on the one hand, Ozzie had to painted as "natural born killer" or was he just originally supposed to be painted as just the "brains" behind the plot and not the trigger man - until what - by hook or by crook - something unforeseen transpired and the plot had to be "adjusted" - at the last minute? E.g., an alternative, to the alternative . . . . . IMHO, LHO was not so naive to agree to order a rifle that could be traced to him, that was to be used in an assassination of the POTUS - whatever BS story he was given. If one was indeed given, and LHO was not just blind-sided, on the surface, he'd have to see it as plausible and not one where he'd be implicated, charged, tried, convicted, and executed. Could the plotters, as Sandy has hypothesized, have originally had in mind to just implicate Oswald in a minor plot, and then "changed horses in the middle of the stream, thinking, "Hey, this new scenario will work out even better for us." Somehow, someway, no doubt, Oswald was expertly hoodwinked. Hence, his impromptu "escape plan" from the TSBD - inexplicable - as it appears to have been. When whatever person it comes to be that eventually solves the case - well, they''ll "be on Easy Street". 'Til then, "A mystery, wrapped in a riddle, inside an enigma".

Jonathan, I thought, reading Sandy's post, he proffered that the plotters may have been implicating specifically LHO, not as the shooter - but perhaps they had him playing another role - that of a "ringleader" or "intermediary". Either role or any other associated assassination one, even minor, would've certainly implicated him, and wasn't that all that was needed? Whether or not the MC found on the TSBD sixth floor was ordered/belonged to Oswald is, in a lot of minds, still a very questionable fact. Anyway, for discussion purposes, assuming the MC was Oswald's, even if he wasn't the shooter, and just say, maybe the "rifle procurer" - didn't the plotters still accomplish their implication of his involvement in the assassination? Also, if in fact, the TSBD' MC is actually the one that Oswald allegedly ordered, the chain of possession from between his alleged pickup - until the time it was "found" in the "sniper's lair" is more than questionable - even on a very good day. So, what if, just for discussion, Oswald did, indeed, order said MC. Could the scene not have gone like this? "Hey Lee, you've been doin' a pretty nice job for us. We need you to order this here rifle through the mail. It's just going to be used as a part of Senator Dodd's firearms mail order investigation. No worries." Subsequently, Oswald is then instructed to transfer the rifle to a person or persons unknown - ostensibly to be placed in an "evidence file", at such future time when Dodd's committee "had the goods" on the firearms dealers. Lee's little task is done, time for another assignment for the ersatz future assassin. Whether Oswald thought he was just a witting/innocent participant in what he thought was a "false flag" op (no real harm was to come to JFK) propounded to be, by his superiors - "in the best interest of U. S. national security" or he was completely oblivious and just going about his intelligence operative usual business - in the end - didn't matter. In either case - viola. Near sixty years later, for truth seekers, the "problem" remains: "Just how in the world, did Lee, that young son-of-gun, get his trusty rifle up to that "sniper's lair" that day"?

Sandy, I'm guessing that you consider LHO to not have been a defector/turncoat/traitor. In truth, IMHO, as a former marine and by the preponderance of everything we've learned about him, most likely an intelligence operative and perhaps even a FBi informant, he seemed to be a patriot, After nearly sixty years, I believe that he may be ruled out as a "crazed lone assassin." So, right - he was set up. The plotters did not have need to have him be on the sixth floor, in the "sniper's lair". Besides there being no credible evidence that he was ever that "crazed lone assassin" he was eventually pictured to be, Oswald was not unintelligent. LHO had to know that he was not capable of the shooting feat that is part of the official record - that which has never been exactly duplicated by the world's finest marksmen. And would the plotters really have chosen LHO as their "lone assassin" - he, whose record as a USMC rifleman mostly indicated that his questionable ability pretty much implied that he was a former member of "the gang who couldn't shoot straight"? As we are aware, one supposition has it, especially if we take into account, perhaps, young man naivete/over confidence (me thinks that he might have been a wee bit over his head, playing with the spy craft "big boys"), he was convinced to play a part in a "false flag operation". Of course, with assurances that he would be shielded and not be, in any manner, implicated. However, unsuspected by Oswald, the plotters had ensured that he would be connected to the assassination by virtue of all the "evidence" created by them alone and/or with LHO's innocent help over the years, that was eventually made part of his "legend" - As you so aptly put forth, what was important was that LHO be quickly determined to be part of a Russian and/or Cuban conspiracy to assassinate the POTUS with the concomitant reaction of the government and the American people - demanding immediate retribution against the "commies". Anyway, shortly subsequent to the shots, young Lee begins to understand - "Aw, crap - this "escapade" they told me about - didn't quite go as I thought. I need to high-tail it to my contact and find out my next step." For the plotters, whatever it was - something had gone wrong. For Lee and Tippit, everything, precipitously, started "going south".