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Did Ruby Know Oswald?


Tim Gratz
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Dixie wrote (or pasted):

There were other credible reports of an Oswald=Ruby link, including that of a gara=ge owner who said Oswald drove Ruby's car, and an auto repairman, who said Oswald brought Ruby's car in for repairs."

Bill Chesher, who apparently suffered a fatal heart attack shortly before he was to be deposed by the WC, had information re the car mechanic. See the WC testimony of DPD Officer Biggio:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/biggio.htm

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Guest Tom Scully
Thanks a bunch for all the Bertha Cheek info, James. I lost some of my Bertha files awhile back, (through carelessness) and am slowly working on them again. I had not heard some of what you mentioned.

I did know that she had been married three times, besides Bogle Bell, Lloyd Cheek and also Harold Clark Sims, in 1961-1962. She may have married again after the Warren Commission. Waldron Litchfiled claimed she offered him a Business Proposal that would have required them to be married and he wasn't willing to go all that far. I don't know what that was sll about. However, I also felt they were both trying to distance themsleves from each other in their testimonies. I also felt they were both lying or covering up about something.

Bertha owned Apartments, on Gaston and on Swiss.Although, the one on Gaston was torn down for a luxury apartment. So, I don't know if she also owned the new one on Gaston or not. Although, I did hear rumors she suddenly, (after the assn.) came into some money and bought a luxury apartment. Both Gaston and Swiss

seems to have been quite a popular location to live, with a lot of the related players in this case. Whhether they lived in her apartment or others on those two streets, I don't know.

I have had a suspicion that Bertha may have owned at least one of the Safe Houses. She did admit she had rented to a couple of Cubans...but claimed it was several years previous, in 1959-1960, but had no other info in that regard. When she saw LHO on TV, she thought she might have rented an apartment to him sometime previous. However, I can't work that into a timeline to believe that was true.

Bertha had managed several Bars and Lounges in the past and was looking for one to invest in. A man named Bill Martin had one that she checked on, but he wanted too much just for an interst in it. So he did tell Jack Ruby about her looking for one. Jack called her and she went to discuss buying the Carousel, with him. Although she also claimed he had another one in mind, but wouldn't tell her where it was...because she might run and grab it out from under him. Evidently though, Jack was wanting to sell the Carousel...and as I mentioned in an above post, several believes she did either buy it or had plans to do so. That hasn't been verified though. But she claimed that whe wasn't agreeable to the terms, so she declined, at lest about the other club.

Is it only a coincidence that he was trying to get rid of the Carousel, because of what might be ahead? Bertha's sister Earlene Roberts died of a heart attack in 1966. I don't recall what year Bertha died though. I was thinking it was a sudden death too.

.

Thanks again!

Dixie

Robert Howard brought up the topic of Bertha Cheek and (no relation that I can find) Denver Lee Cheek, on the Jack W. Martin thread. Here are some things I've found:

FBI Justification for and results of Bertha Cheek background check:

....In view of the rolati.rrship of LIrs . E3..:RTHA CMD%,

3914 Swiss,Dallas, Tc=xas, to EAPU,IYE ROBERTS, a 'sister uho

,had rented the room at 16k26 Norton Boc&Aey, ; Dalla.s n - and in view

of BERTHA CHEEK°s acquaintanceship with JACK RUBY from 1948

to the present time, as heretofore reported, the following

background data concerning BErT3i& CHEEK was developed.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...eek_Ex_5353.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=b...nG=Search+Books

Oswald talked: the new evidence in the JFK assassination‎ - Page 212

Ray La Fontaine, Mary La Fontaine - History - 1996 - 454 pages

Contacted by Mary in 1993, Bertha's daughter said that her mother was still

living,

The Bogle family moved from the Nashville, Tenn. area to Smith County, TX after 1915 and before Bertha was born in Feb., 1920:

Parents of Evalene Bogle Roberts and Bertha Bogle Cheek:

http://www.usgwarchives.net/tx/smith/tspho...ems/rucker.html

se30c268.jpg

se30c236.jpg

I've located the 1910 and 1930 US Census records to support the contention that the photos above are the grave markers of the parents of Evalene and Bertha Bogle.

They probably moved to Texas just before the 1920 census was taken, because I cannot find a record. In 1910, Earlene, 5 years old, spelled "Earline" and 4 years old Georgia were listed, along with a baby brother named "Davie".

Name: J M Bogle

Age in 1910: 35

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875

Birthplace: Tennessee

Relation to Head of House: Head

Father's Birth Place: Tennessee

Mother's Birth Place: Tennessee

Spouse's Name: Maggie

Home in 1910: Civil District 14, Cannon, Tennessee

Marital Status: Married

Race: White

Household Members: Name Age

J M Bogle 35

Maggie Bogle 30

Earline Bogle 5

Georgia Bogle 4

Davie Bogle 1 4/12

In 1930, Evalene is already out of the household, and Bertha, listed as age ten, and "Davie" is not listed.

Joseph M Bogle

Home in 1930: Precinct 5, Van Zandt, Texas

View Map

Age: 55

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875

Relation to Head of House: Head

Spouse's Name: Mary M

Race: White

Household Members: Name Age

Joseph M Bogle 55

Mary M Bogle 50

Georgia Bogle 23

Opal Bogle 15

Berthal Bogle 10

Edited by Tom Scully
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Thanks a bunch for all the Bertha Cheek info, James. I lost some of my Bertha files awhile back, (through carelessness) and am slowly working on them again. I had not heard some of what you mentioned.

I did know that she had been married three times, besides Bogle Bell, Lloyd Cheek and also Harold Clark Sims, in 1961-1962. She may have married again after the Warren Commission. Waldron Litchfiled claimed she offered him a Business Proposal that would have required them to be married and he wasn't willing to go all that far. I don't know what that was sll about. However, I also felt they were both trying to distance themsleves from each other in their testimonies. I also felt they were both lying or covering up about something.

Bertha owned Apartments, on Gaston and on Swiss.Although, the one on Gaston was torn down for a luxury apartment. So, I don't know if she also owned the new one on Gaston or not. Although, I did hear rumors she suddenly, (after the assn.) came into some money and bought a luxury apartment. Both Gaston and Swiss

seems to have been quite a popular location to live, with a lot of the related players in this case. Whhether they lived in her apartment or others on those two streets, I don't know.

I have had a suspicion that Bertha may have owned at least one of the Safe Houses. She did admit she had rented to a couple of Cubans...but claimed it was several years previous, in 1959-1960, but had no other info in that regard. When she saw LHO on TV, she thought she might have rented an apartment to him sometime previous. However, I can't work that into a timeline to believe that was true.

Bertha had managed several Bars and Lounges in the past and was looking for one to invest in. A man named Bill Martin had one that she checked on, but he wanted too much just for an interst in it. So he did tell Jack Ruby about her looking for one. Jack called her and she went to discuss buying the Carousel, with him. Although she also claimed he had another one in mind, but wouldn't tell her where it was...because she might run and grab it out from under him. Evidently though, Jack was wanting to sell the Carousel...and as I mentioned in an above post, several believes she did either buy it or had plans to do so. That hasn't been verified though. But she claimed that whe wasn't agreeable to the terms, so she declined, at lest about the other club.

Is it only a coincidence that he was trying to get rid of the Carousel, because of what might be ahead? Bertha's sister Earlene Roberts died of a heart attack in 1966. I don't recall what year Bertha died though. I was thinking it was a sudden death too.

.

Thanks again!

Dixie

Robert Howard brought up the topic of Bertha Cheek and (no relation that I can find) Denver Lee Cheek, on the Jack W. Martin thread. Here are some things I've found:

FBI Justification for and results of Bertha Cheek background check:

....In view of the rolati.rrship of LIrs . E3..:RTHA CMD%,

3914 Swiss,Dallas, Tc=xas, to EAPU,IYE ROBERTS, a 'sister uho

,had rented the room at 16k26 Norton Boc&Aey, ; Dalla.s n - and in view

of BERTHA CHEEK°s acquaintanceship with JACK RUBY from 1948

to the present time, as heretofore reported, the following

background data concerning BErT3i& CHEEK was developed.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...eek_Ex_5353.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=b...nG=Search+Books

Oswald talked: the new evidence in the JFK assassination‎ - Page 212

Ray La Fontaine, Mary La Fontaine - History - 1996 - 454 pages

Contacted by Mary in 1993, Bertha's daughter said that her mother was still

living,

The Bogle family moved from the Nashville, Tenn. area to Smith County, TX after 1915 and before Bertha was born in Feb., 1920:

Parents of Evalene Bogle Roberts and Bertha Bogle Cheek:

http://www.usgwarchives.net/tx/smith/tspho...ems/rucker.html

se30c268.jpg

se30c236.jpg

I've located the 1910 and 1930 US Census records to support the contention that the photos above are the grave markers of the parents of Evalene and Bertha Bogle.

They probably moved to Texas just before the 1920 census was taken, because I cannot find a record. In 1910, Earlene, 5 years old, spelled "Earline" and 4 years old Georgia were listed, along with a baby brother named "Davie".

Name: J M Bogle

Age in 1910: 35

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875

Birthplace: Tennessee

Relation to Head of House: Head

Father's Birth Place: Tennessee

Mother's Birth Place: Tennessee

Spouse's Name: Maggie

Home in 1910: Civil District 14, Cannon, Tennessee

Marital Status: Married

Race: White

Household Members: Name Age

J M Bogle 35

Maggie Bogle 30

Earline Bogle 5

Georgia Bogle 4

Davie Bogle 1 4/12

In 1930, Evalene is already out of the household, and Bertha, listed as age ten, and "Davie" is not listed.

Joseph M Bogle

Home in 1930: Precinct 5, Van Zandt, Texas

View Map

Age: 55

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875

Relation to Head of House: Head

Spouse's Name: Mary M

Race: White

Household Members: Name Age

Joseph M Bogle 55

Mary M Bogle 50

Georgia Bogle 23

Opal Bogle 15

Berthal Bogle 10

The identity of the two Cuban's who rented from Bertha Cheek could possibly be more than an item of passing interest. Although I cannot say with certainty, the possibility or probability that the Warren Commission and subsequent documents do not, as far as I know, reveal their identities makes one wonder if they were names that would be familiar to us all.

Regarding Ruby and Oswald "knowing" each other, I am certain they were aware of each other prior to the assassination, but some of the accounts of their being together especially in Dallas, [i believe New Orleans is a different story] were actually Larry Crafard.

I do believe the significance of the Bertha Cheek/Earlene Roberts relationship is a key part of unraveling the dynamics of the assassination, in part due to other persons Bertha had rented to, and "who they were." As time passes, I am convinced Jack Ruby was more guilty of involvement in the assassination than Oswald, although saying that is a minority opinion, to say the least.

The only thing about Ruby that could be less incriminating in that regard s that he was manipulated into certain actions

The allegation that Jack Ruby made phone calls to the rooming house prior to the assassination, has never been factually substantiated, but at the same time, knowing that Ruby called the Kloepfer's in New Orleans, as revealed by Joan Mellen

tends to give credence to that possibility.....

Another fact regarding Denver Lee Cheek is that the operator who monitored the call stated he was possibly an African-American and was further muddled by the fact the FBI did not indicate his ethnicity when they interviewed him, which is, in my opinion very unusual. So what would be the ramifications if Bertha and Denver were related. Not much, other than the fact that Bertha had a relative who apparently, [if you read between the lines] was not exactly in sackcloth and ashes at the fact that JFK was dead, and could have known a lot more than anything that is revealed in the two interviews that we know exist.

As far as Oswald and Ruby are concerned, it would be hard to argue that the producing of the documents that Pete Acker allegedly turned over to the Dallas Police that proved Ruby's phone calls to 1026 N. Beckley would be as close to a bombshell 45 years later than anything I can think of concerning the two. But it is also strange that the only time Pete Acker [1] was mentioned in the Warren Commission Hearings was when he was mentioned by Charles W Greener, as being the only person who knew how to manually load a Mannlicher-Carcano, although he referenced him as Ray Acker, Acker's full name was Ray "Pete" Acker, get to the bottom of that nook and cranny and you definitely win a prize.

Charles W Greener was connected to Dial Ryder as indicated below.

Mr. Liebeler.

I have advised you that I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission. I want to ask you about some of the background concerning the possibility that Lee Oswald or some other Oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it? Would you state your name?

Mr. Greener.

Charles W. Greener.

Mr. Liebeler.

Are you the owner and operator of the Irving Sports Shop located at 221 East Irving Boulevard in Irving?

Mr. Greener.

. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

Is Dial D. Ryder one of your employees?

Mr. Greener.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

How long have you known Ryder?

Mr. Greener.

Approximately 6 years.

END [2]

1. Ray Acker was a high level employee of American Bell Telephone Co in Dallas

See Forgive My Grief III pg 118, by Penn Jones Jr., (1969) and

Someone Would Have Talked pg 155, by Hancock, Larry (2003)

2. For Charles W Grenner's WC testimony See

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol11/page246.php

Additional information

CHEEK, BERTHA CARDELLA (NEE VOGLE)

Sources: WC Report, p. 363; WC Vol. 13, pp. 382-402; WC Vol. 19, pp. 44, 64, 326; WC Vol. 22, p. 504; CD 4, p. 739; CD 86, pp. 132-133; CD 104, p. 283; CD 205, pp. 453-60; CD 223, p. 326; CD 355, p. 167; HSCA Report, p. 148; HSCA Vol. IV, pp. 550-51; HSCA Vol. IX, pp. 1085, 1088, 1090; HSCA Vol. XI, p. 291; Conspiracy, Summers, pp. 479, 602; Cover-Up, Shaw & Harris, p. 102; Coup d'Etat in America, Canfield & Weberman, pp. 50-1; Forgive My Grief, Vol. I, pp. 79, 85, 89, 91-3, 97-8, 114

Mary's Comments: Sister of Mrs. Earlene Roberts, housekeeper at 1026 N. Beckley where Oswald resided. Manager of apartments on Swiss Avenue. Had operated night clubs in Dallas and knew Jack Ruby and Harry Olson and had business and social contact with Ruby. She bought 509-11 N. Ewing, Dallas ("Twin Oaks" Apts.). DOB: 2/9/20. POB: Troup, TX. Divorced Lloyd Cheek in 1955 or '56. Two sons: John and Irwin - 18 and 13 yrs. in 1964.

JAMES A., JR. BOHART

CD 1121 (45) Dallas Police Department Lieutenant. Wife: Lou. Jim Garrison's office heard rumor he was related to Bertha Cheek

Lula B Davidson was a former school teacher from Tyler, TX. Was in real estate business. Accompanied Bertha Cheek to Carousel Club to meet with Jack Ruby See WC Vol. 13 (386)

BOB SANDS

Owner of Sands Electric Company. Sands "lights the Fair Grounds." He introduced W. W. "Bob" Litchfield to Mrs. Bertha Cheek (Earlene Roberts' sister) WC Vol 14, pp. 96, 98-99

JESS WILLARD LYNCH

CD 205, pp. 453-460; CD 1261; CD 1268 Managed boarding house in Dallas for Mrs. Bertha Cheek and her sister, Mrs. Earlene Roberts. Arrest record attached to CD 1268. FBI

David H. Barry

Special Agent, of FBI; Interviewed Bertha Cheek.

WC 13 (390, 392, 394, 398, 401); HSCA Vol. XII (42); Photographic Whitewash, Weisberg (50, 177)

EARLENE (MRS.) ROBERTS, pp. 10, 12, 14; Whitewash I, Weisberg, pp. 115-118, 123, 127, 199; Second Oswald, Popkin, pp. 81, 106 Housekeeper at LHO's rooming house; sister of Bertha Cheek. Died of a heart attack

Robert: On my own I discovered that Lula Davidson died in 1967 See DMN Rites Friday for Dallas Educator...Also if there was ever an under reported aspect of JFK Research it would be dissecting the "How Hollywood Makes Movies crowd" with Jack Ruby, it was also there if I am not mistaken that Jack met Crafard, and H L Hunt had a booth; there may be some smoke in there, and where is smoke there is hopefully fire.

Edited by Robert Howard
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  • 2 weeks later...
Thanks a bunch for all the Bertha Cheek info, James. I lost some of my Bertha files awhile back, (through carelessness) and am slowly working on them again. I had not heard some of what you mentioned.

I did know that she had been married three times, besides Bogle Bell, Lloyd Cheek and also Harold Clark Sims, in 1961-1962. She may have married again after the Warren Commission. Waldron Litchfiled claimed she offered him a Business Proposal that would have required them to be married and he wasn't willing to go all that far. I don't know what that was sll about. However, I also felt they were both trying to distance themsleves from each other in their testimonies. I also felt they were both lying or covering up about something.

Bertha owned Apartments, on Gaston and on Swiss.Although, the one on Gaston was torn down for a luxury apartment. So, I don't know if she also owned the new one on Gaston or not. Although, I did hear rumors she suddenly, (after the assn.) came into some money and bought a luxury apartment. Both Gaston and Swiss

seems to have been quite a popular location to live, with a lot of the related players in this case. Whhether they lived in her apartment or others on those two streets, I don't know.

I have had a suspicion that Bertha may have owned at least one of the Safe Houses. She did admit she had rented to a couple of Cubans...but claimed it was several years previous, in 1959-1960, but had no other info in that regard. When she saw LHO on TV, she thought she might have rented an apartment to him sometime previous. However, I can't work that into a timeline to believe that was true.

Bertha had managed several Bars and Lounges in the past and was looking for one to invest in. A man named Bill Martin had one that she checked on, but he wanted too much just for an interst in it. So he did tell Jack Ruby about her looking for one. Jack called her and she went to discuss buying the Carousel, with him. Although she also claimed he had another one in mind, but wouldn't tell her where it was...because she might run and grab it out from under him. Evidently though, Jack was wanting to sell the Carousel...and as I mentioned in an above post, several believes she did either buy it or had plans to do so. That hasn't been verified though. But she claimed that whe wasn't agreeable to the terms, so she declined, at lest about the other club.

Is it only a coincidence that he was trying to get rid of the Carousel, because of what might be ahead? Bertha's sister Earlene Roberts died of a heart attack in 1966. I don't recall what year Bertha died though. I was thinking it was a sudden death too.

.

Thanks again!

Dixie

Robert Howard brought up the topic of Bertha Cheek and (no relation that I can find) Denver Lee Cheek, on the Jack W. Martin thread. Here are some things I've found:

FBI Justification for and results of Bertha Cheek background check:

....In view of the rolati.rrship of LIrs . E3..:RTHA CMD%,

3914 Swiss,Dallas, Tc=xas, to EAPU,IYE ROBERTS, a 'sister uho

,had rented the room at 16k26 Norton Boc&Aey, ; Dalla.s n - and in view

of BERTHA CHEEK°s acquaintanceship with JACK RUBY from 1948

to the present time, as heretofore reported, the following

background data concerning BErT3i& CHEEK was developed.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...eek_Ex_5353.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?um=1&q=b...nG=Search+Books

Oswald talked: the new evidence in the JFK assassination‎ - Page 212

Ray La Fontaine, Mary La Fontaine - History - 1996 - 454 pages

Contacted by Mary in 1993, Bertha's daughter said that her mother was still

living,

The Bogle family moved from the Nashville, Tenn. area to Smith County, TX after 1915 and before Bertha was born in Feb., 1920:

Parents of Evalene Bogle Roberts and Bertha Bogle Cheek:

http://www.usgwarchives.net/tx/smith/tspho...ems/rucker.html

se30c268.jpg

se30c236.jpg

I've located the 1910 and 1930 US Census records to support the contention that the photos above are the grave markers of the parents of Evalene and Bertha Bogle.

They probably moved to Texas just before the 1920 census was taken, because I cannot find a record. In 1910, Earlene, 5 years old, spelled "Earline" and 4 years old Georgia were listed, along with a baby brother named "Davie".

Name: J M Bogle

Age in 1910: 35

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875

Birthplace: Tennessee

Relation to Head of House: Head

Father's Birth Place: Tennessee

Mother's Birth Place: Tennessee

Spouse's Name: Maggie

Home in 1910: Civil District 14, Cannon, Tennessee

Marital Status: Married

Race: White

Household Members: Name Age

J M Bogle 35

Maggie Bogle 30

Earline Bogle 5

Georgia Bogle 4

Davie Bogle 1 4/12

In 1930, Evalene is already out of the household, and Bertha, listed as age ten, and "Davie" is not listed.

Joseph M Bogle

Home in 1930: Precinct 5, Van Zandt, Texas

View Map

Age: 55

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875

Relation to Head of House: Head

Spouse's Name: Mary M

Race: White

Household Members: Name Age

Joseph M Bogle 55

Mary M Bogle 50

Georgia Bogle 23

Opal Bogle 15

Berthal Bogle 10

The identity of the two Cuban's who rented from Bertha Cheek could possibly be more than an item of passing interest. Although I cannot say with certainty, the possibility or probability that the Warren Commission and subsequent documents do not, as far as I know, reveal their identities makes one wonder if they were names that would be familiar to us all.

Regarding Ruby and Oswald "knowing" each other, I am certain they were aware of each other prior to the assassination, but some of the accounts of their being together especially in Dallas, [i believe New Orleans is a different story] were actually Larry Crafard.

I do believe the significance of the Bertha Cheek/Earlene Roberts relationship is a key part of unraveling the dynamics of the assassination, in part due to other persons Bertha had rented to, and "who they were." As time passes, I am convinced Jack Ruby was more guilty of involvement in the assassination than Oswald, although saying that is a minority opinion, to say the least.

The only thing about Ruby that could be less incriminating in that regard s that he was manipulated into certain actions

The allegation that Jack Ruby made phone calls to the rooming house prior to the assassination, has never been factually substantiated, but at the same time, knowing that Ruby called the Kloepfer's in New Orleans, as revealed by Joan Mellen

tends to give credence to that possibility.....

Another fact regarding Denver Lee Cheek is that the operator who monitored the call stated he was possibly an African-American and was further muddled by the fact the FBI did not indicate his ethnicity when they interviewed him, which is, in my opinion very unusual. So what would be the ramifications if Bertha and Denver were related. Not much, other than the fact that Bertha had a relative who apparently, [if you read between the lines] was not exactly in sackcloth and ashes at the fact that JFK was dead, and could have known a lot more than anything that is revealed in the two interviews that we know exist.

As far as Oswald and Ruby are concerned, it would be hard to argue that the producing of the documents that Pete Acker allegedly turned over to the Dallas Police that proved Ruby's phone calls to 1026 N. Beckley would be as close to a bombshell 45 years later than anything I can think of concerning the two. But it is also strange that the only time Pete Acker [1] was mentioned in the Warren Commission Hearings was when he was mentioned by Charles W Greener, as being the only person who knew how to manually load a Mannlicher-Carcano, although he referenced him as Ray Acker, Acker's full name was Ray "Pete" Acker, get to the bottom of that nook and cranny and you definitely win a prize.

Charles W Greener was connected to Dial Ryder as indicated below.

Mr. Liebeler.

I have advised you that I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission. I want to ask you about some of the background concerning the possibility that Lee Oswald or some other Oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it? Would you state your name?

Mr. Greener.

Charles W. Greener.

Mr. Liebeler.

Are you the owner and operator of the Irving Sports Shop located at 221 East Irving Boulevard in Irving?

Mr. Greener.

. Yes, sir.

Mr. Liebeler.

Is Dial D. Ryder one of your employees?

Mr. Greener.

Yes.

Mr. Liebeler.

How long have you known Ryder?

Mr. Greener.

Approximately 6 years.

END [2]

1. Ray Acker was a high level employee of American Bell Telephone Co in Dallas

See Forgive My Grief III pg 118, by Penn Jones Jr., (1969) and

Someone Would Have Talked pg 155, by Hancock, Larry (2003)

2. For Charles W Grenner's WC testimony See

http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol11/page246.php

Additional information

CHEEK, BERTHA CARDELLA (NEE VOGLE)

Sources: WC Report, p. 363; WC Vol. 13, pp. 382-402; WC Vol. 19, pp. 44, 64, 326; WC Vol. 22, p. 504; CD 4, p. 739; CD 86, pp. 132-133; CD 104, p. 283; CD 205, pp. 453-60; CD 223, p. 326; CD 355, p. 167; HSCA Report, p. 148; HSCA Vol. IV, pp. 550-51; HSCA Vol. IX, pp. 1085, 1088, 1090; HSCA Vol. XI, p. 291; Conspiracy, Summers, pp. 479, 602; Cover-Up, Shaw & Harris, p. 102; Coup d'Etat in America, Canfield & Weberman, pp. 50-1; Forgive My Grief, Vol. I, pp. 79, 85, 89, 91-3, 97-8, 114

Mary's Comments: Sister of Mrs. Earlene Roberts, housekeeper at 1026 N. Beckley where Oswald resided. Manager of apartments on Swiss Avenue. Had operated night clubs in Dallas and knew Jack Ruby and Harry Olson and had business and social contact with Ruby. She bought 509-11 N. Ewing, Dallas ("Twin Oaks" Apts.). DOB: 2/9/20. POB: Troup, TX. Divorced Lloyd Cheek in 1955 or '56. Two sons: John and Irwin - 18 and 13 yrs. in 1964.

JAMES A., JR. BOHART

CD 1121 (45) Dallas Police Department Lieutenant. Wife: Lou. Jim Garrison's office heard rumor he was related to Bertha Cheek

Lula B Davidson was a former school teacher from Tyler, TX. Was in real estate business. Accompanied Bertha Cheek to Carousel Club to meet with Jack Ruby See WC Vol. 13 (386)

BOB SANDS

Owner of Sands Electric Company. Sands "lights the Fair Grounds." He introduced W. W. "Bob" Litchfield to Mrs. Bertha Cheek (Earlene Roberts' sister) WC Vol 14, pp. 96, 98-99

JESS WILLARD LYNCH

CD 205, pp. 453-460; CD 1261; CD 1268 Managed boarding house in Dallas for Mrs. Bertha Cheek and her sister, Mrs. Earlene Roberts. Arrest record attached to CD 1268. FBI

David H. Barry

Special Agent, of FBI; Interviewed Bertha Cheek.

WC 13 (390, 392, 394, 398, 401); HSCA Vol. XII (42); Photographic Whitewash, Weisberg (50, 177)

EARLENE (MRS.) ROBERTS, pp. 10, 12, 14; Whitewash I, Weisberg, pp. 115-118, 123, 127, 199; Second Oswald, Popkin, pp. 81, 106 Housekeeper at LHO's rooming house; sister of Bertha Cheek. Died of a heart attack

Robert: On my own I discovered that Lula Davidson died in 1967 See DMN Rites Friday for Dallas Educator...Also if there was ever an under reported aspect of JFK Research it would be dissecting the "How Hollywood Makes Movies crowd" with Jack Ruby, it was also there if I am not mistaken that Jack met Crafard, and H L Hunt had a booth; there may be some smoke in there, and where is smoke there is hopefully fire.

While the enlightened minority may be inclined to see increasing assimilation of data in the myriad of books, declassified documents and so-forth, there are still may questions to be answered.

One question is......If the issue of the coded P O Box laughed to scorn by critics of Jim Garrison in the rather strange saga of Lee Odom is such a topic of discussion among idiots, then explain the following.

AGENCY : DOJ

RECORD NUMBER : 179-20001-10374

RECORDS SERIES : CLASSIFIED SUBJECT FILE 129-11, ENCLOSURES, SERIAL #71

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : FBI

FROM : [No From]

TO : [No To]

TITLE : [No Title]

DATE : 07/07/1967

PAGES : 2

DOCUMENT TYPE : PAPER, TEXTUAL DOCUMENT

SUBJECTS : ODOM, LEE

CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED

RESTRICTIONS : REFERRED

CURRENT STATUS : POSTPONED IN FULL

DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 00/00/0000

COMMENTS : INCLUDES A ROUTING SLIP; BOX 64

Maybe Tel-Tek Electronics is more than just another company, and maybe the frequency of occasions one sees the last name of Martin is more than it being a common last name, why would I say that?

We already know that Jack W. Martin is, if you go by the Secret Service Report in CD 87 the first suspect in the JFK Assassination, before Lee Harvey Oswald, was ever mentioned, in Bertha Cheek's WC Testimony she says a very odd thing, if you look at the quote in the context of there being a Jack W Martin as such

Mrs. CHEEK. [Reading.] You know, you talk to people about investments like Jack Ruby, but I have talked to a number of people. You may not just have an idea that you would invest, if you would make some money. I had no idea that I would. This is nothing permanent about this at all. I was just talking to the people, just went down and talked to him Just like I talked to Bill Martin. Bill Martin could have killed President Kennedy and it would have been the same thing when I talked to him if he did it.

Mrs Cheek also references a Dr Florescent from the Philippines...Really

Edited by Robert Howard
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  • 6 years later...

I hope I'm doing his right. I'm posting from an old thread about Ruby and Oswald. There is a link here which describes three men at the Carousel club in November 1963. When this was posted no one apparently noticed the description of one of the 'Oswald' companions as Mexican with a scar over his left eye. Isn't that suggestive of David Morales?

Here is a link to Commission Exhibit 2370 referenced in Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol25_0190a.htmThis relates to a statement of a Harvey Wade that he saw LHO in the Carousel Club on November 10, 1963.

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I hope I'm doing his right. I'm posting from an old thread about Ruby and Oswald. There is a link here which describes three men at the Carousel club in November 1963. When this was posted no one apparently noticed the description of one of the 'Oswald' companions as Mexican with a scar over his left eye. Isn't that suggestive of David Morales?

Here is a link to Commission Exhibit 2370 referenced in Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol25_0190a.htmThis relates to a statement of a Harvey Wade that he saw LHO in the Carousel Club on November 10, 1963.

Yes, Paul, it is. Thanks for bringing this document to our attention. FWIW, this alleged sighting of Oswald at Ruby's joint would have been on a Sunday night.

Morales had a roundish face, a dark complexion (he was half Spanish and half Yaqui Indian), a very noticeable scar on and above his left eyebrow, and an athletic physique, having been a football star in high school (according to his friend Ruben Carbajal).

He would have been a young-looking 38 years old in November, 1963. The photograph of him, below, was taken in 1959 and published in a Cuban newspaper in 1978, according to the Spartacus website. (Note the notch on the underside of his left eyebrow, indicating where the diagonal scar is located.)

JFKmoralesF4.jpg

As you know, I believe that David Sanchez Morales was the dark-complected, athletically-built, camera-carrying, suit-wearing-in-August, "Neck Scratcher" who was apparently monitoring Oswald during the infamous leafleting incident in New Orleans on August 9, 1963, when Oswald and three anti-Castro Cubans were arrested for disturbing the peace.

Anyone interested in reading my old posts on this subject can type the words "neck scratcher" in the "this forum" search box.

-- Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Tommy - thanks for responding to my bump of this old thread. The document describing the sighting at the Carousel Club was generated two days after the assassination, so it seems unlikely to be a deliberate rabbit hole. Morales must have been very much in the shadows at that time. The witness Mr. Harvey Wade seems to have an exceptional memory for detail, but some people do have memories like that. I sure don't.

So now we have, in addition to Veciana seeing Oswald with David Atlee Phillips a few months earlier in Dallas, we have Morales, possibly, sighted with Oswald, possibly, at Ruby's club. Morales would have been a perfect choice to carry out any plans with Oswald that Phillips might have been hatching.

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Here is a link to Commission Exhibit 2370 referenced in Richard Billings' "New Orleans Journal":

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...Vol25_0190a.htm

This relates to a statement of a Harvey Wade that he saw LHO in the Carousel Club on November 10, 1963.

Can anybody explain to me who the person in this document is, the one referred to simply as "the person?"

At first I thought "the person" was a reference to Harvey Wade. But in the second-to-the-last paragraph, it is written that "the person believed Oswald and friends were in he club when Wade arrived...." So "the person" is not Wade.

Also, how can it be explained that this alleged "Oswald" is described as having long black hair? I suppose his dark brown hair could appear black in a dark night club. But long? The only photos I recall of Oswald having long hair (by pre-Beatles standards) is when he was a kid and when he was in Russia.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Sandy - 'the person' is followed by the word 'believed' on each occasion, so possibly it should read 'the person believed to be Oswald'. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Do you and others think that David Morales fits the description of the man with the scar over his left eye?

The incident with the photographer taking a Polaroid is strangely worded as well. Ruby steps in after the emcee says something about blackmail, and he is heard to say the photo didn't come out. But, seeing as according to Wade the photo would have included Oswald and his companions in the foreground, I might be tempted to think that the photo survived and is the source for the detailed descriptions.

Whatever the case, it's interesting to speculate whether the man with the scar might be David Morales, because if it is the implications are enormous. Tommy - what do you think? You've been carrying the torch on Morales for a while. Does the rest of the description fit?

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On 9/30/2016 at 8:30 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Sandy - 'the person' is followed by the word 'believed' on each occasion, so possibly it should read 'the person believed to be Oswald'. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Do you and others think that David Morales fits the description of the man with the scar over his left eye?

The incident with the photographer taking a Polaroid is strangely worded as well. Ruby steps in after the emcee says something about blackmail, and he is heard to say the photo didn't come out. But, seeing as according to Wade the photo would have included Oswald and his companions in the foreground, I might be tempted to think that the photo survived and is the source for the detailed descriptions.

Whatever the case, it's interesting to speculate whether the man with the scar might be David Morales, because if it is the implications are enormous. Tommy - what do you think? You've been carrying the torch on Morales for a while. Does the rest of the description fit?

Paul,

Yes, except perhaps for the "bumpy face" (whatever that means) and the age description of 30 to 32 inasmuch as Morales had turned 38 three months earlier.

The 5'10", 200 pounds, oval face, dark complexion, long (by 1963 standards) black hair, and scar on his left eyebrow is enough for me, though.

Thanks for asking,

-- Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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On 9/30/2016 at 0:43 PM, Thomas Graves said:
On 9/30/2016 at 8:30 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Sandy - 'the person' is followed by the word 'believed' on each occasion, so possibly it should read 'the person believed to be Oswald'. It's the only thing that makes sense.

Do you and others think that David Morales fits the description of the man with the scar over his left eye?

The incident with the photographer taking a Polaroid is strangely worded as well. Ruby steps in after the emcee says something about blackmail, and he is heard to say the photo didn't come out. But, seeing as according to Wade the photo would have included Oswald and his companions in the foreground, I might be tempted to think that the photo survived and is the source for the detailed descriptions.

Whatever the case, it's interesting to speculate whether the man with the scar might be David Morales, because if it is the implications are enormous. Tommy - what do you think? You've been carrying the torch on Morales for a while. Does the rest of the description fit?

Paul,

Yes, except perhaps for the "bumpy face" (whatever that means) and the age description of "30 to 32," inasmuch as Morales had turned 38 three months earlier.

The scar on his left eyebrow, the 5'10", 200 pounds, the oval face, the dark "Mexican or Spanish" complexion, and the long black hair is enough for me, though.

Thanks for asking,

-- Tommy :sun

What do YOU think, Paul?

-- Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Personally I think it's very likely that It was Morales, and that he was running Oswald on orders from DAP. I'm not sure how Ruby fits in with this scenario.

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