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Who was QJ/WIN


Tim Gratz
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32 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

You asked me, " Do you believe him when he says he wasn’t in the US? Or are you just adding his denial to the mix?"

 

Larry Hancock once asked me if I thought  Souetre was an assassin, and I told him no. I told Larry that I think Jean-Rene was a patriot, as he understood patriotism to be; but an assassin, no. At this stage, I believe him when he says he wasn't here in the U.S.

 

As far as Document 632-796, we don't know who wrote it, or when. This is only one paragraph of a larger document that the CIA did not see fit to provide.

Why?

 

Steve Thomas

I can see that, but it’s also true that DeGaulle’s men considered him dangerous. For me the story of QJWIN doesn’t hinge on whether Souetre was in Dallas, or meeting with Walker and Banister because he was an assassin. Others in O.A.S. surely were, and Souetre was acting apparently as an emissary. Your first paragraph seems to imply that a patriot wouldn’t lie. Am I misreading that?

You ask a good question as to why the rest of the document is unreleased. So many others too. 

Ive never asked you what you basically think about who killed JFK and why. I just assumed by the subjects of your threads that you suspected right wing elements in the US military. 

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8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

Read this document carefully. The French said that he had been expelled from either Fort Worth or Dallas within 48 hours of the assassination. They also said that they didn't know if he had been expelled to either Canada or Mexico.

Sandwiched in the middle of those two unclear statements is this definitive line, "He was in Fort Worth on the morning of 22 November and in Dallas in the afternoon."

 

This last sentence does not say that this information came from the French.

How could the French be so hazy or unclear about the information in the first two sentences, but so declarative about the last?

I think that last sentence was cleverly inserted by the CIA into the information the French had provided to the FBI.

 

cia-souetre.jpg.27eb050a8cefceca7e3296e18797a5e3.jpg

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

Steve - What purpose would it have served for the CIA to insert that sentence into what the French had provided to the FBI? 

Edited by Paul Brancato
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8 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

I can see that, but it’s also true that DeGaulle’s men considered him dangerous.

Ive never asked you what you basically think about who killed JFK and why.

Paul,

 

You're right. The French considered Souetre to be dangerous... to DeGaulle.

For weeks after the attack at Petit-Clamart, the French press speculated that Souetre had a hand in it. I read somewhere that, at one point, Jean-Rene Souetre was one of the two most wanted men in France.

 

2058553117_LAurore.thumb.jpg.62e73499188aa491e8808c85d243d3ee.jpg

 

I try not to speculate too much about why JFK was murdered. Once you start speculating about the why something happened, people immediately start questioning your agenda and your motives. The best I can do is point out anomalies and patterns, and let others decide for themselves.

 

Steve Thomas

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9 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

PS: The headline of that article I provided basically says that Souetre was the driver of the getaway vehicle at Petit-Clamart.

That's what people at the time thought his role was.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve - I went over all the Souetre material, which I I had read earlier and forgotten the details of, such as The French Deception article. When I wrote my trading cards I chose not to put Souetre in the deck because like you I thought it unlikely that he was a shooter. I’m not necessarily convinced that he was never in the US though. Fensterwald doesn’t footnote his FOIA request on the subject. But he does reference an unnamed member of SAC, part of SDECE, as saying he knew Souetre well. He is the source for the info on Souetre’s visits to right wingers in the US in 1963 prior to his supposed visit to Dallas area around Nov. 22. We bump into these undocumented sources often, and for sure it’s worth keeping in mind they may not be true, though unverified isn’t the same as false. 

My primary interest in Souetre and in O.A.S. is as a possible source for recruitment of assassins for hire, and this stems from my interest in Harvey and ZRRIFLE, and in QJWIN and WIROGUE. I’m not wedded to any particular assassin’s name. I’m more interested in the identity of those cryptonyms, and I’ve read the documents that seem to name them. I’m not convinced by those documents that we really know, mainly because of new revelations supposedly coming in books soon to be released that the real identity of QJWIN is Otto Skorzeny. We will see what the authors have dug up, and how well they can document their thesis. It is well documented that Skorzeny was hired by Mossad agents who found him in Madrid in the late 1950’s. I’ve seen interviews with Skorzeny on YouTube in which he claims he worked for US Intelligence for several years. This is why I am so curious about E Howard Hunt being stationed in Madrid in the early 1960’s, and why I wish I could find the reference I read on a thread on this forum to Harvey going to Madrid in 1962 or 1963. And it’s Madrid where so many O.A.S agents found refuge, including Souetre. I hope I’m remembering that correctly. 

Another curious connection to Nazis is the number of key CIA agents who were stationed in Berlin beginning with Shackley, who was Gehlen’s interpretor, and including Harvey, Morales, and many others whose names I can’t recall presently. I don’t dismiss the international Nazi organization that survived Hitler. I know that eyes roll when I bring up Nazis. Oh well. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - I went over all the Souetre material, which I I had read earlier and forgotten the details of, such as The French Deception article. 

But he does reference an unnamed member of SAC, part of SDECE, as saying he knew Souetre well. He is the source for the info on Souetre’s visits to right wingers in the US in 1963 prior to his supposed visit to Dallas area around Nov. 22.

My primary interest in Souetre and in O.A.S. is as a possible source for recruitment of assassins for hire,

Paul,

 

1. "The French Deception"... I'm not familiar with that article.

 

2. As far as SAC being the source of any information, I think I'd take that with a grain of salt. They were kind of like a militia group in service to DeGaulle. They weren't part of the French government per se. The Service d'Action Civique and the OAS hated each other.

 

3. Souetre recruiting... I know he was recruiting mercenaries in Belgium in the late 1960's in support of Moishe Tshombe under the pseudonym Eugene Constant. Tschombe had made him a major.

 

You might want to dig into Aginter Presse. A lot of what you find will be in Italian or French, but there's some stuff out there in English. Here's a good starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aginter_Press#CITEREFGanser2005

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I know that eyes roll when I bring up Nazis. Oh wel

The problem with using the "N" word is that Nazi's were socialists. The socialist aspect of Naziism did not go underground and spread to anywhere. Nazis were also Nationalists, truly; and, likewise, did not spread outside of Germany.

So, it is, truly, a term that is not useful to anyone in the context which you are trying to use it.

Edited by Michael Clark
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1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

The problem with using the "N" word is that Nazi's were socialists. The socialist aspect of Naziism did not go underground and spread to anywhere. Nazis were also Nationalists, truly; and, likewise, did not spread outside of Germany.

So, it is, truly, a term that is not useful to anyone in the context which you are trying to use it.

Michael - the financial structures that supported Hitler weren’t socialist. The term really applied to the garnering of public support during Hitlers rise. I doubt that anyone’s eyes get glassy because of the word socialist. Perhaps the word fascist is better. But I am talking about Germans like Gehlen and Skorzeny, who were prominent Nazis in Hitler’s military.

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1 hour ago, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

1. "The French Deception"... I'm not familiar with that article.

 

2. As far as SAC being the source of any information, I think I'd take that with a grain of salt. They were kind of like a militia group in service to DeGaulle. They weren't part of the French government per se. The Service d'Action Civique and the OAS hated each other.

 

3. Souetre recruiting... I know he was recruiting mercenaries in Belgium in the late 1960's in support of Moishe Tshombe under the pseudonym Eugene Constant. Tschombe had made him a major.

 

You might want to dig into Aginter Presse. A lot of what you find will be in Italian or French, but there's some stuff out there in English. Here's a good starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aginter_Press#CITEREFGanser2005

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

Thanks for filling me in on SAC. Do you think a good source has to be a neutral one? I don’t. The men charged with protecting DeGaulle had their hands full, and obviously did their jobs well.

I’ve done whatever reading I can find in English on Aginter Presse and on the fascist milieu generally. 

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2 hours ago, Rich Pope said:

You have to look to see who gained the most by the assassination of JFK and that person is LBJ.  He ordered the hit.  

I’ve read the info on LBJ and Clark. It seemed convincing at the time. 

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1 hour ago, David Boylan said:

QJ WIN is listed as Jose Marie Andre Mankel - http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10061-10115.pdf (page 17)

Also lists WI ROGUE as David Tzitzichvilli. This doc has listings of Crypts and aliases. David Philips as - Walter Bracton, Micheal Choadan, Paul Langevin, David Paddock.

Even though it’s hard for me to make sense out of these multiple pages I think I see the links between QJWIN and Mankel, and WIROGUE and Tzitzivilli or however that name is spelled. Other documents are less clear about whether the latter is the real name of WIROGUE or another alias. 

I’ve said several times on the Forum that the name Mankel is mentioned only (as far as I can tell) as the receiver of CIA payments for QJWIN ‘s services. It’s not even clear that QJWIN applies to one individual, as there were QJWIN offices in several cities. Sorry I’m fuzzy on the exact details. Bottom line is I’m not convinced we’ve gotten to the bottom of QJWIN, and it seems really important to me since it relates to Harvey and ZRRIFLE. 

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3 hours ago, David Boylan said:

QJ WIN is listed as Jose Marie Andre Mankel - http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10061-10115.pdf (page 17)

Also lists WI ROGUE as David Tzitzichvilli. This doc has listings of Crypts and aliases. David Philips as - Walter Bracton, Micheal Choadan, Paul Langevin, David Paddock.

David,

 

This is probably the wrong thread for this, but look at page 70 of the document you posted:

 

employees, agents or informants:

Laverne Crafard and James Earl Ray. my, my, my.

 

Steve Thomas

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