Lee Oswald’s Departure from the TSBD

[David G. Healy]

From all that I've seen that you've posted, it seems that you think that Oswald was more than "a very guilty part of that conspiracy," but rather the only guilty part of the conspiracy since you haven't suggested any role for any of the others involved.

What did those other people do?!? Could we get "a straight answer" on that?

Nope, sorry Duke I ain't playing guessing games, or to paraphrase your recent post it depends on how you define "straight answer" etc etc. Straight answer is, as I dont KNOW who Oswald's co-conspirators were or which group they belonged to, I cant possible KNOW what their role was. Oh sure, I have lots of ideas and theory, those ideas and theory PLUS 10p will buy a box of matches. In other words they are quite useless unless backed up by facts an evidence. Which I dont have. There are certain threads where I have postulated my ideas/theory. But I dont feel that would be appropriate here, this thread seems more concerned with facts or at least how people with differant opinions define those facts. I'd like to keep it that way. What was it Ray said ? Something along the lines of "inquirers differ from believers in that they dont revel their beliefs until they have finished their inquiries" or words to that effect. I thought the phrase very clever and I intend to steal it.

Hi Gary.... (he was peeking in on ya Pointing) checking the troops I guess, eh?

[Duke Lane]

... What was it Ray said ? Something along the lines of "inquirers differ from believers in that they dont revel their beliefs until they have finished their inquiries" or words to that effect. I thought the phrase very clever and I intend to steal it.

Be kinder to yourself: remember that if you only steal one idea, that's plagiarism ... but if you steal several ideas, it's research!

I recently discovered that much of the way my line of thinking has evolved over recent years was actually already considered, unbeknownst to me, by Jerry Rose in The Third Decade, which tells you how long ago he'd already thought of it. Talking to him recently, he said that he was more intent on raising the question than finding the answers, but it was interesting to see that I wasn't alone in my perceptions.

[J. William King]

With all of the talk about where LHO went and how he got there, and how much time it took, I thought I would play with my Mapsource program a bit. The attached screenshot is the result of many minutes of labor.

I don't know what route Oswald took to 10th and Patton (if he indeed went there). I let my program do the work. The settings are for "pedestrian" with time and distance for each route on the left. I also plotted out a direct route from his rooming house to the Texas Theater (highlighted in yellow).

It's interesting to note that he started out heading SSE, only to go towards the theater after the Tippit shooting. If you will notice, "Dallas Zoo Blvd" is in direction he was heading. I couldn't help but think of that childhood picture of him at the zoo and wondered if he may have been heading there before he was sidetracked?

Edited October 28, 2008 by J. William King

[Jack White]

Interesting. But when he left 1026 N.Beckley, he walked NORTH to the bus stop a half block

toward downtown, NOT DIRECTLY SOUTH and did NOT walk south again past 1026. I believe

the housekeeper Earline Roberts testified that she last saw him at the BUS STOP, which was

for buses going downtown to the north.

So if he then walked to Tenth and Patton from the bus stop, he would have walked east to

Crawford Street, and then back to the south, further adding to his time. Doing this he would

pass the city park shown on the map where Marina claimed "he took his rifle to practice

shooting"...one of Marina's most absurd lies.

Jack

Edited October 28, 2008 by Jack White

[Duke Lane]

... The attached screenshot is the result of many minutes of labor. ... The settings are for "pedestrian" with time and distance for each route on the left. I also plotted out a direct route from his rooming house to the Texas Theater (highlighted in yellow).

It's interesting to note that he started out heading SSE, only to go towards the theater after the Tippit shooting. If you will notice, "Dallas Zoo Blvd" is in direction he was heading. I couldn't help but think of that childhood picture of him at the zoo and wondered if he may have been heading there before he was sidetracked?

This map was the result of plugging in the two addresses to Google Maps' beta "walking" calculations; we come up with the same time time and distance from 1026 to 10&P. You can drag the line to any other street(s) to see the differences in each there would be to be made.

Interesting. But when he left 1026 N.Beckley, he walked NORTH to the bus stop a half block toward downtown, NOT DIRECTLY SOUTH and did NOT walk south again past 1026. I believe the housekeeper Earline Roberts testified that she last saw him at the BUS STOP, which was for buses going downtown to the north.

So if he then walked to Tenth and Patton from the bus stop, he would have walked east to Crawford Street, and then back to the south, further adding to his time. Doing this he would pass the city park shown on the map where Marina claimed "he took his rifle to practice shooting"...one of Marina's most absurd lies.

According to the same Google Maps as above (just dragging the route line), it added 2/10 of a mile and three minutes to the route (1.0 miles total, 19 minutes). Adding the "satellite view" option (this map), the bus stop being "a half block" away isn't quite accurate: 1026 is the one with the red roof.

Actually, I also recalled Earlene testifying that she last saw him at the bus stop "in front of the house," which made me consider the possibility that "in front of the house" but across the street there was a southbound bus stop. Not so. Searching her testimony, she didn't say anything about the bus stop at that time, but rather it in an affidavit executed on December 5, 1963, to wit:

Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. I saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop

just to the right, and on the same side of the street as our house

.

Clearly the northbound bus stop (or "inbound" would be more accurate if any of the bus routes turned on Zangs and crossed the viaduct).

[Jack White]

... The attached screenshot is the result of many minutes of labor. ... The settings are for "pedestrian" with time and distance for each route on the left. I also plotted out a direct route from his rooming house to the Texas Theater (highlighted in yellow).

It's interesting to note that he started out heading SSE, only to go towards the theater after the Tippit shooting. If you will notice, "Dallas Zoo Blvd" is in direction he was heading. I couldn't help but think of that childhood picture of him at the zoo and wondered if he may have been heading there before he was sidetracked?

This map was the result of plugging in the two addresses to Google Maps' beta "walking" calculations; we come up with the same time time and distance from 1026 to 10&P. You can drag the line to any other street(s) to see the differences in each there would be to be made.

Interesting. But when he left 1026 N.Beckley, he walked NORTH to the bus stop a half block toward downtown, NOT DIRECTLY SOUTH and did NOT walk south again past 1026. I believe the housekeeper Earline Roberts testified that she last saw him at the BUS STOP, which was for buses going downtown to the north.

So if he then walked to Tenth and Patton from the bus stop, he would have walked east to Crawford Street, and then back to the south, further adding to his time. Doing this he would pass the city park shown on the map where Marina claimed "he took his rifle to practice shooting"...one of Marina's most absurd lies.

According to the same Google Maps as above (just dragging the route line), it added 2/10 of a mile and three minutes to the route (1.0 miles total, 19 minutes). Adding the "satellite view" option (this map), the bus stop being "a half block" away isn't quite accurate: 1026 is the one with the red roof.

Actually, I also recalled Earlene testifying that she last saw him at the bus stop "in front of the house," which made me consider the possibility that "in front of the house" but across the street there was a southbound bus stop. Not so. Searching her testimony, she didn't say anything about the bus stop at that time, but rather it in an affidavit executed on December 5, 1963, to wit:

Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. I saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop

just to the right, and on the same side of the street as our house

.

Clearly the northbound bus stop (or "inbound" would be more accurate if any of the bus routes turned on Zangs and crossed the viaduct).

Thanks for the research, Duke. I was going from memory. I forgot it was her statement, not her testimony, which placed him at

the inbound bus stop. Half a block was too generous...it was more like 200 feet to the corner as I recall.

Jack

[Duke Lane]

Amending an earlier post:

... Earlene wasn't exactly certain what the number on the car was - she gave at least three - and her eyesight (blind in one eye, presumably had a prescription for the other since she wore glasses) might've not let her see whatever number was there clearly, so no number can necessarily be ruled out completely. Even though she said any of 207 or 107 or 106, it might as easily have been 35 or 193 or any other number. Even where officers reported driving a particular numbered vehicle, it is not an absolute fact that they were driving the car they had said they were driving, especially if their visit to Oak Cliff was not for purposes they'd want to have on record, or even that their car was in the shop that day and it wasn't a detail that they'd thought was important or they even remembered. ...

So here's her testimony on that matter, in two sections:

Mr. Ball

. Did a police car pass the house there and honked?

Mrs. Roberts

. Yes.

Mr. Ball

. When was that?

Mrs. Roberts

. He came in the house.

Mr. Ball

. When he came in the house ?

Mrs. Roberts

. When he came in the house and went to his room, you know how the sidewalk runs?

Mr. Ball

. Yes.

Mrs. Roberts

. Right direct in front of that door-there was a police car stopped and honked. I had worked for some policemen and sometimes they come by and tell me something that maybe their wives would want me to know, and I thought it was them, and

I just glanced out and saw the number, and I said, "Oh, that's not their car,"

for I knew their car.

Mr. Ball

. You mean, it was not the car of the policemen you knew?

Mrs. Roberts

. It wasn't the police car I knew, because

their number was 170 and it wasn't 170 and I ignored it

.

Mr. Ball

. And who was in the car?

Mrs. Roberts

. I don't know —

I didn't pay any attention to it after I noticed it wasn't them

— I didn't.

Mr. Ball

. Where was it parked ?

Mrs. Roberts

. It was parked in front of the house.

Mr. Ball

. At 1026 North Beckley?

Mrs. Roberts

. And then they just eased on — the way it is — it was the third house off of Zangs and they just went on around the corner that way.

Mr. Ball

. Went around what corner?

Mrs. Roberts

. Went around the corner off of Beckley on Zangs.

Mr. Ball

. Going which way — toward town or away from town?

Mrs. Roberts

. Toward town.

Dr. Goldberg

. Which way was the car facing?

Mrs. Roberts

. It was facing north.

Dr. Goldberg

. Towards Zangs?

Mrs. Roberts

. Towards Zangs — for I was the third house right off of Zangs on Beckley.

Mr. Ball

. Did this police car stop directly in front of your house?

Mrs. Roberts

. Yes — it stopped directly in front of my house and it just "tip-tip" and that's the way Officer Alexander and Charles Burnely would do when they stopped, and

I went to the door and looked and saw it wasn't their number

.

Mr. Ball

. It was not 170?

Mrs. Roberts

. The people I worked for was 170.

Mr. Ball

. Did you report that number to anyone, did you report this incident to anyone?

Mrs. Roberts

. Yes, I told the FBI and the Secret Service both when they was out there.

Mr. Ball

. And did you tell them the number of the car?

Mrs. Roberts

. I'm not sure--I believe I did--I'm not sure. I think I did because there was so much happened then until my brains was in a whirl.

Mr. Ball

. On the 29th of November, Special Agents Will Griffin and James Kennedy of the Federal Bureau of Investigation interviewed you and you told them that

after Oswald had entered his room about 1 p.m. on November 22, 1963, you looked out the front window and saw police car No. 207?

Mrs. Roberts

.

No. 107

.

Mr. Ball

.

Is that the number?

Mrs. Roberts

.

Yes — I remembered it. I don't know where I got that 106 — 207. Anyway, I knew it wasn't 170

.

Mr. Ball

. And you say that there were two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. Roberts

. Yes, and it was in a black car. It wasn't an accident squad car at all.

Mr. Ball

. Were there two uniformed policemen in the car?

Mrs. Roberts

. Oh, yes.

Mr. Ball

. And one of the officers sounded the born ?

Mrs. Roberts

. Just kind of a "tit-tit" — twice.

Mr. Ball

. And then drove on to Beckley toward Zangs Boulevard, is that right?

Mrs. Roberts

. Yes. I thought there was a number, but I couldn't remember it but I did know the number of their car — I could tell that. I want you to understand that I have been put through the third degree and it's hard to remember. [6H443-444]

So in reality - or as close to reality as Earlene Roberts dealt with - she claims that she thought it might've been two cops she knew because of the way they honked their horn, but that looking out - apparently going to the door to do it while Oswald was in his room - she noticed the number on the door wasn't 170 and then ignored it.

The car number "207" was a result of a possible transcription error in an FBI interview, which could have occurred in any number of ways given Earlene's clear and concise manner of speaking and/or her advanced lie-telling propensity, according to her employer and landlady Gladys Johnson.

So we have the FBI report of November 29 with "207" in the picture ("reflected on page 356 of the [Gemberling report] dated November 30" - probably CD5 - according to the cover letter of what became CE2645 at 25H909), followed - as best as I can recall offhand; I don't think there was anything in between relating to this - by Earlene's testimony on April 8, culminating in an FBI investigatory report dated June 15. I've seen the original DPD officers' reports, but cannot recall where they're found or when they were turned in, before or after Earlene's April testimony. In any case, the DPD investigation centered only on Car 207, and possibly touched on the fact that Car 170 had been decommissioned.

In one respect, that doesn't matter because she said that once she saw it wasn't Car 170, she ignored it and wasn't sure of the number (the only thing she was sure of was that it was a black patrol car and not a white accident investigation unit). In another, if it was a transcription error by Gemberling or the typist, it's possible that she did remember the number of the car a week afterward, but no longer did by April. FBI's badd.

What's interesting, though, is her description of having been "put through the third degree" about this. Assuming that she wasn't suffering another bout of exaggeration, it certainly means that this particular topic was revisited on more than just November 29 with Gemberling; when, how often and by whom remains an open question (for the moment, at least). Was she being repeatedly questioned for accuracy and reliability, or was she being sweated? (I'm obliquely reminded of Acquilla Clemons' statement that cops came by - people she at least thought were cops - effectively telling her to forget what she claims to have seen, or anything at all that doesn't resemble the story as assembled.)

[Duke Lane]

Thanks for the research, Duke. I was going from memory. I forgot it was her statement, not her testimony, which placed him at the inbound bus stop. Half a block was too generous...it was more like 200 feet to the corner as I recall.

According to Google Maps, 92 feet. "No problemo" otherwise: it's pretty simple stuff and apparently pretty accurate.

[Jack White]

Thanks for the research, Duke. I was going from memory. I forgot it was her statement, not her testimony, which placed him at the inbound bus stop. Half a block was too generous...it was more like 200 feet to the corner as I recall.

According to Google Maps, 92 feet. "No problemo" otherwise: it's pretty simple stuff and apparently pretty accurate.

From the map, I see the lots were only 50 feet wide, not 100 feet as I assumed. In my neighborhood

lots are 100 feet wide. And I thought the bus stop was where the street curves. I forgot about there

being a crosswalk.

Thanks.

Jack

[J. Raymond Carroll]

the bus stop being "a half block" away isn't quite accurate: 1026 is the one with the red roof.

According to Google Maps, 92 feet. "No problemo"

Sorry, problemo here. If the bus stop was 92 feet north of 1026, surely it was not “in front of” the house. 92 feet is 30 yards and query whether it would even be possible to see the bus stop from Roberts window?

Robert’s affidavit seems to contain a contradiction: She says he was standing on the curb in front of her house, AND she says he was standing at the bus stop.

But if he was standing at the bus stop, then he could not have been standing in front of her house, unless the bus stop today is about 90 feet north of where it was in 1963.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

query whether it would even be possible to see the bus stop from Roberts window?

Thanks to Gary Mack for this email:

The bus stop is still there and I've been in the house. Yes, it's easy to see the bus stop from the living room where Roberts was adjusting the TV.

So if we rely on Roberts, he left the house and walked north, as if to head back downtown, stood at the bus stop ( where he could have got a bus to downtown) long enough for Roberts to see him standing there, and what he did next is up for grabs.

[Jack White]

... The attached screenshot is the result of many minutes of labor. ... The settings are for "pedestrian" with time and distance for each route on the left. I also plotted out a direct route from his rooming house to the Texas Theater (highlighted in yellow).

It's interesting to note that he started out heading SSE, only to go towards the theater after the Tippit shooting. If you will notice, "Dallas Zoo Blvd" is in direction he was heading. I couldn't help but think of that childhood picture of him at the zoo and wondered if he may have been heading there before he was sidetracked?

This map was the result of plugging in the two addresses to Google Maps' beta "walking" calculations; we come up with the same time time and distance from 1026 to 10&P. You can drag the line to any other street(s) to see the differences in each there would be to be made.

Interesting. But when he left 1026 N.Beckley, he walked NORTH to the bus stop a half block toward downtown, NOT DIRECTLY SOUTH and did NOT walk south again past 1026. I believe the housekeeper Earline Roberts testified that she last saw him at the BUS STOP, which was for buses going downtown to the north.

So if he then walked to Tenth and Patton from the bus stop, he would have walked east to Crawford Street, and then back to the south, further adding to his time. Doing this he would pass the city park shown on the map where Marina claimed "he took his rifle to practice shooting"...one of Marina's most absurd lies.

According to the same Google Maps as above (just dragging the route line), it added 2/10 of a mile and three minutes to the route (1.0 miles total, 19 minutes). Adding the "satellite view" option (this map), the bus stop being "a half block" away isn't quite accurate: 1026 is the one with the red roof.

Actually, I also recalled Earlene testifying that she last saw him at the bus stop "in front of the house," which made me consider the possibility that "in front of the house" but across the street there was a southbound bus stop. Not so. Searching her testimony, she didn't say anything about the bus stop at that time, but rather it in an affidavit executed on December 5, 1963, to wit:

Oswald went out the front door. A moment later I looked out the window. I saw Lee Oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop

just to the right, and on the same side of the street as our house

.

Clearly the northbound bus stop (or "inbound" would be more accurate if any of the bus routes turned on Zangs and crossed the viaduct).

Today Zang is a divided lane boulevard. I question whether it was in 1963...which would have put the

bus stop farther north.

Jack

[J. William King]

I seem to remember that someone on here had a link to a site that had older street maps online. They were of the "pan and zoom" type if I remember correctly. I used to have it bookmarked but I've since lost it. I tried an online search, and a search of this site but I can't put it up. Anyone remember that site?

Edited October 28, 2008 by J. William King

[Duke Lane]

Today Zang is a divided lane boulevard. I question whether it was in 1963...which would have put the bus stop farther north.

It's easy enough to find out, Jack: at about Jefferson & Crawford is the city building that has all of the street engineering drawings, history, etc. Some years ago, when Dave Perry had proposed the possibility that the police car was honking its horn at a car in front of it, possibly distracted by the fact of a cop being behind him and not driving forward when the light turned green. I went to that building (Public Works Department? Traffic? Engineering?) and checked that there was a light there and also found in the course of it the complete history of when a light was first installed there and each time it had been upgraded in any way (e.g., replaced, additional signal lights added, hung from a new structure, etc.). Here's a shot of that intersection today, courtesy of Google Maps Street View; notice the bench at the bus stop at the corner:

Here's the same intersection including 1026 (with the red roof) at the far right to show how short the distance actually is:

... and here, looking from the intersection back to 1026 including the bus stop at the left:

Supporting - but not proving - the idea that Zangs was not as wide then as it is now, note that 1026 is now the second home from the corner, and that there is an empty lot to the north of the first home; Earlene Roberts said in her testimony (6H443, quoted above) that 1026 was the third home from the corner at the time. The proof of it would be in that building on Jefferson.

I would add at this point, having fielded Perry's proposal (I don't know how he stands on it today), that as reasonable as that possibility seems to be, the fact is that all of the patrol cars assigned to that area had either all already been called out of the area, or were still in their assigned districts elsewhere. It is likewise unlikely that it was a unit responding to the downtown shooting if Roberts' description of it having "just eased on ... around the corner" onto Zangs, not the picture of responding to an emergency, any more than it beeping lightly ("tit-tit") at a car to go through the signal is.

Too, if indeed the patrol car was there at that time as Roberts described, then it doesn't seem as if its purpose was entirely innocent since no officer on patrol that day admitted to having been near there during that timeframe: if a cop had merely been beeping to hurry up a distracted driver, why not just say so? "In responding to the downtown shooting, my route took me through the intersection of Beckley and Zangs, where a car did not go through the green light. I beeped at him to hurry him along ...."

Wow, situation explained ... if only it had happened that way.

[Antti Hynonen]

Duke Lane Posted Today, 05:06 PM

QUOTE(Jack White @ Oct 28 2008, 02:49 PM)

Today Zang is a divided lane boulevard. I question whether it was in 1963...which would have put the bus stop farther north.

It's easy enough to find out, Jack: at about Jefferson & Crawford is the city building that has all of the street engineering drawings, history, etc. Some years ago, when Dave Perry had proposed the possibility that the police car was honking its horn at a car in front of it, possibly distracted by the fact of a cop being behind him and not driving forward when the light turned green. I went to that building (Public Works Department? Traffic? Engineering?) and checked that there was a light there and also found in the course of it the complete history of when a light was first installed there and each time it had been upgraded in any way (e.g., replaced, additional signal lights added, hung from a new structure, etc.). Here's a shot of that intersection today, courtesy of Google Maps Street View; notice the bench at the bus stop at the corner:

Here's the same intersection including 1026 (with the red roof) at the far right to show how short the distance actually is:

... and here, looking from the intersection back to 1026 including the bus stop at the left:

Supporting - but not proving - the idea that Zangs was not as wide then as it is now, note that 1026 is now the second home from the corner, and that there is an empty lot to the north of the first home; Earlene Roberts said in her testimony (6H443, quoted above) that 1026 was the third home from the corner at the time. The proof of it would be in that building on Jefferson.

I would add at this point, having fielded Perry's proposal (I don't know how he stands on it today), that as reasonable as that possibility seems to be, the fact is that all of the patrol cars assigned to that area had either all already been called out of the area, or were still in their assigned districts elsewhere. It is likewise unlikely that it was a unit responding to the downtown shooting if Roberts' description of it having "just eased on ... around the corner" onto Zangs, not the picture of responding to an emergency, any more than it beeping lightly ("tit-tit") at a car to go through the signal is.

Too, if indeed the patrol car was there at that time as Roberts described, then it doesn't seem as if its purpose was entirely innocent since no officer on patrol that day admitted to having been near there during that timeframe: if a cop had merely been beeping to hurry up a distracted driver, why not just say so? "In responding to the downtown shooting, my route took me through the intersection of Beckley and Zangs, where a car did not go through the green light. I beeped at him to hurry him along ...."

Wow, situation explained ... if only it had happened that way.

Duke thanks for all the pictures. Glad to see that Gary Mack added that the bus stop was visible from the TV den too.

Just to comment on the cop car trying to speed up traffic ahead of it; wouldn't they have most likely been "code 3" (siren&lights), or if not code 3, wouldn't they have used their siren&lights to make it clear to others in traffic that they were responding to a call, that is, if in fact they were responding to a shooting call?

I do agree that if we consider Earlene's testimony reliable (I think most of it is), she did in fact hear a cop car honk in front of her house about that time, and the reasons why that police was there at that time make an excellent question/discussion.

Is it entirely impossible that it was Tippit's car?

He seemed to have that extra uniform in his car, and that may have been (worn by) the second officer at that time. I agree that she was confused about the number on the car. As far as I know he was one of the closest, if not the closest to this location at that time, yes?

Edited October 29, 2008 by Antti Hynonen