Motorcycle Officers "Martin & Chaney"

[John Dugan]

I was surprised that you didn't make any comment on the Altgens and McIntire photos. Any idea how Chaney managed to avoid appearing in those?

I know I'm showing an astounding lack of comprehension by using common words as they're commonly used and presenting clear photos. Please forgive the lawyer in me.

Jerry[/color]

because Jack thinks those photos have been altered too.

[Jerry Logan]

I was surprised that you didn't make any comment on the Altgens and McIntire photos. Any idea how Chaney managed to avoid appearing in those?

I know I'm showing an astounding lack of comprehension by using common words as they're commonly used and presenting clear photos. Please forgive the lawyer in me.

Jerry[/color]

because Jack thinks those photos have been altered too.

John,

You're right. He must. His only problem is how that happened. The Altgens photo runs the afternoon of the 22nd and McIntire never makes it to government hands.

Maybe that's why he didn't comment.

Best to you,

Jerry

Edited February 1, 2010 by Jerry Logan

[John Dugan]

exactly. It means the Z-film would have to be fixed then all photos not supporting said fix, would have to be gathered and altered and returned. No possible and not even feasible.

[Paul Rigby]

Exactly. It means the Z-film would have to be fixed then all photos not supporting said fix, would have to be gathered and altered and returned.

Not unexpectedly, you have it, as the famous Latin phrase has it, arse about tit. What actually happened was Muchmore interesting.

The publication of Altgens “5” caught Chaney in such a problematic position and motion (in the process of overtaking the presidential limo) that the second version of the Z fake – that’s the one without the turn of the presidential limo from Houston onto Elm – had to decentre the presidential limo and its occupants, dropping them to the bottom of the frame, thus apparently excluding Chaney legitimately from the seeming field of view.

And if that was true for the bogus film from the north side of Elm, it was necessarily true for the supporting filmlets from the south: The Altgens photo was so problematic to the fabricators that it compelled them to commence the two key early supporting filmlets, Nix and “Muchmore,” after “Z255,” the supposed Z frame-correlative of Altgens 4. A direct comparison of that Altgens still with the Nix and “Muchmore” fakes was rightly feared, and thus eschewed, by the fabricators.

The two key still photos of the assassination either published (Altgens & Moorman) or both published and broadcast (Moorman) in the first two days after the assassination were not “gathered and altered and returned” – a straw man of agreeably comic appearance – but instead worked around, with a view to integrating them into the new filmic narrative represented by the second version of the Z fake. This also obliged some work with the eyewitness testimony, as the shooting was moved back down Elm towards the TSBD.

Not possible and not even feasible.

Quite so. Which is why those responsible for recasting the Z fake didn’t do it that way.

[Robin Unger]

Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass.

Robin:

I think what we see here is the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs. The second "underpass" is even further west of this gantry, and is where Elm goes under the Stemmons Freeway before entering the northbound on-ramp, and it was only when they reached that on-ramp that Chaney caught up with Curry.

Chris.

Chris,

You're right. Here's a photo showing the second underpass.

In 1963 you had to pass under three lanes of freeway to get to the Stemmons on ramp from Dealey Plaza.

Best to you,

Jerry

Chris / Jerry

Thanks

FWIW i beleive the image above could be considered as an underpass.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Robin Unger

[John Dolva]

they're decentered and more so the closer the Limo is because Zapruder, a typical trait of amteur filmers, views the limo through his viewfinder expecting the telephoto lens will project the same scene onto the film siurface as is on to his retina.

[Robin Unger]

Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass.

Robin:

I think what we see here is the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs. The second "underpass" is even further west of this gantry, and is where Elm goes under the Stemmons Freeway before entering the northbound on-ramp, and it was only when they reached that on-ramp that Chaney caught up with Curry.

Chris.

Chris.

Any chance of posting a clearer image showing the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Robin Unger

[John Dugan]

Second Under Pass - see white arrow

Mystery Solved.

[Jerry Logan]

Second Under Pass - see white arrow

Mystery Solved.

John,

I'll see your second underpass and raise one Stemmons on ramp.

Best to you,

Jerry

[Paul Rigby]

they're decentered and more so the closer the Limo is because Zapruder, a typical trait of amteur filmers, views the limo through his viewfinder expecting the telephoto lens will project the same scene onto the film siurface as is on to his retina.

A curiosity - sorry, read "typical trait of amateur filmers" - which just happened to coincide with the frames in which Chaney passed the limo and rode ahead?

How very convenient.

And the inception of the Nix and "Muchmore" fakes? They just happened to start filming after Z255/Altgens?

How even more convenient.

[Jerry Logan]

Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass.

Robin:

I think what we see here is the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs. The second "underpass" is even further west of this gantry, and is where Elm goes under the Stemmons Freeway before entering the northbound on-ramp, and it was only when they reached that on-ramp that Chaney caught up with Curry.

Chris.

Chris.

Any chance of posting a clearer image showing the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs.

Robin,

I think you can see the back of it very clearly in the McIntire photo.

Best to you,

Jerry

[Jack White]

This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film.

Don,

You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland.

This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp.

Jerry

Jerry's sense of comprehension is lacking. He needs to reread the statements.

He is using a lawyerly technique of twisting semantics.

Plus there is only ONE UNDERPASS there; nobody would mistake a high

freeway bridge for an underpass.

Jack

Jack,

I think what you must have meant to write is that nobody would use the word underpass just like it's defined in every common dictionary.

For instance, because it's quick and easy, the only definition of underpass in the Merriam-Webster online edition....

"a crossing of a highway and another way (as a road or railroad) at different levels; also : the lower level of such a crossing"

It may be that when you go under a highway bridge through an underpass you don't think you're in an underpass. Many others do, including the people who write dictionaries.

I was surprised that you didn't make any comment on the Altgens and McIntire photos. Any idea how Chaney managed to avoid appearing in those?

And when Chief Curry and Officer Brown said Chaney met the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp they really meant under the triple underpass?

I know I'm showing an astounding lack of comprehension by using common words as they're commonly used and presenting clear photos. Please forgive the lawyer in me.

Jerry

Jerry is obviously oblivious to the difference in a bridge and an underpass. And he

obviously has never been on Elm Street in Dallas Texas. And he obviously likes to

twist the meaning of words.

Jack

[Jerry Logan]

Exactly. It means the Z-film would have to be fixed then all photos not supporting said fix, would have to be gathered and altered and returned.

Not unexpectedly, you have it, as the famous Latin phrase has it, arse about tit. What actually happened was Muchmore interesting.

The publication of Altgens “5” caught Chaney in such a problematic position and motion (in the process of overtaking the presidential limo) that the second version of the Z fake – that’s the one without the turn of the presidential limo from Houston onto Elm – had to decentre the presidential limo and its occupants, dropping them to the bottom of the frame, thus apparently excluding Chaney legitimately from the seeming field of view.

And if that was true for the bogus film from the north side of Elm, it was necessarily true for the supporting filmlets from the south: The Altgens photo was so problematic to the fabricators that it compelled them to commence the two key early supporting filmlets, Nix and “Muchmore,” after “Z255,” the supposed Z frame-correlative of Altgens 4. A direct comparison of that Altgens still with the Nix and “Muchmore” fakes was rightly feared, and thus eschewed, by the fabricators.

The two key still photos of the assassination either published (Altgens & Moorman) or both published and broadcast (Moorman) in the first two days after the assassination were not “gathered and altered and returned” – a straw man of agreeably comic appearance – but instead worked around, with a view to integrating them into the new filmic narrative represented by the second version of the Z fake. This also obliged some work with the eyewitness testimony, as the shooting was moved back down Elm towards the TSBD.

Not possible and not even feasible.

Quite so. Which is why those responsible for recasting the Z fake didn’t do it that way.

Paul,

Wrong Altgens. We're discussing photograph number 7. No Chaney. There should be if he's racing ahead of the limousine to get to the lead car.

Jerry

[Jerry Logan]

This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film.

Don,

You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland.

This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp.

Jerry

Jerry's sense of comprehension is lacking. He needs to reread the statements.

He is using a lawyerly technique of twisting semantics.

Plus there is only ONE UNDERPASS there; nobody would mistake a high

freeway bridge for an underpass.

Jack

Jack,

I think what you must have meant to write is that nobody would use the word underpass just like it's defined in every common dictionary.

For instance, because it's quick and easy, the only definition of underpass in the Merriam-Webster online edition....

"a crossing of a highway and another way (as a road or railroad) at different levels; also : the lower level of such a crossing"

It may be that when you go under a highway bridge through an underpass you don't think you're in an underpass. Many others do, including the people who write dictionaries.

I was surprised that you didn't make any comment on the Altgens and McIntire photos. Any idea how Chaney managed to avoid appearing in those?

And when Chief Curry and Officer Brown said Chaney met the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp they really meant under the triple underpass?

I know I'm showing an astounding lack of comprehension by using common words as they're commonly used and presenting clear photos. Please forgive the lawyer in me.

Jerry

Jerry is obviously oblivious to the difference in a bridge and an underpass. And he

obviously has never been on Elm Street in Dallas Texas. And he obviously likes to

twist the meaning of words.

Jack

Right Jack! Me and the dictionary guys and this poor fellow from Ohio who mislabeled his photograph in 2007.

Maybe it's just Yankees who've never been to Dallas who'd think you'd call that an underpass?

But no, that can't be. I've been to Dallas and I'm a Southerner.

Still no comments about Altgens seven and McIntire?

[Robin Unger]

Hi Jerry.

Thanks for the overhead of the on ramp and freeway Overpass / Underpass ?

Had this been refered to as an "UNDERPASS" it seems to account for Chaney catching the limo as it entered the underpass.

And also seems to verify what some have said, which is that chaney didn't catch the limo UNTIL it was on the exit ramp.