Motorcycle Officers "Martin & Chaney"

[John Dugan]

OpEdNews

Original Content at http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_ji..._of_jfk_fil.htm

February 5, 2008

New Proof of JFK Film Fakery: "Conclusive Evidence," Experts Claim

By Jim Fetzer

Madison, WI (OpEdNews) February 5, 2008 — The editor of Assassination Research, James H. Fetzer, Ph.D., has announced the discovery of new proof that the home movies of the assassination of JFK known as the Zapruder film and a second known as the Nix film are fakes. (The Nix film was taken from the opposite side looking toward “the grassy knoll.”) Both were subject to extensive alteration to fabricate evidence of the crime and keep the truth about the sequence of events in Dealey Plaza from the American people. Fetzer, McKnight Professor Emeritus at the University of Minnesota, observed that the films are authentic only if the visible events they record correspond to the actual sequence of events at the time. “This proof is based upon the convergent testimony of motorcycle patrolmen, members of the Secret Service, and the Dallas Chief of Police. That it contradicts the official account of the assassination recorded in the films qualifies as a major breakthrough.”

Part of the power of Costella’s new findings is that they can be appraised by anyone with access to the film, which is archived at the same site, and his collation of reports at Assassination Research 5/1 (2007), assassinationresearch/v5n1/v5n1costella.pdf . As illustrations of what he has uncovered, here are some of the reports from the officials who were involved:

* James Chaney (motorcycle patrolman on right rear of the Presidential limousine): “I went ahead of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital and that Parkland was standing by.”

* Bobby Hargis (motorcycle patrolman on left rear of the Presidential limousine): “The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the Chief that the President had been shot.”

* Winston Lawson (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle escort officer pulled along side our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief Curry gave a signal over the radio for police to converge on the area of the incident.”

* Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service Agent in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “A motorcycle patrolman pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled, ‘Is anybody hurt?’, to which the officer responded in the affirmative.”

* Chief Jesse Curry (in the lead car in front of the Presidential limousine): “. . . about this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney, rode up beside us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’ and I said ‘Has somebody been shot?” And he said, ‘I think so.’”

I have been watching all the you tubes from the Duluth Symposium on Zapruder Film Alteration (2003). I've watched the Costello, Lifton, and Fetzer presentation and I am in the middle of the Healey Presentation. They are all very well done. Lots of interesting facts and photos.

I just don't think the above statements from the motorcycle cops, SS agents, and Chief Curry should be used as proof that the Z-film has been altered. The statements never state proximity or location - so how can it be assumed that that these actions happened before the overpass? And there is no rhyme or reason why the alterationists would alter all the films and pictures to show the motorcycle cops in different locations. There are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them.

[Jack White]

You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and

spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry.

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came,

well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the

face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap,

and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead

of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been

hit. And then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital,

and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead

car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President]

had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with

Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right

side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced

to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car

had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A

motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody

hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief

Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building. By that time we

had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car

pulled up alongside, and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to

pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and

Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled

alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief

Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the

incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632]

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police

Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I

talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit

Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin:

“Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to

What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything

about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him

[the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service

men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony:

3H266]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened

back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him

and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood

and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that

time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’

or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t

know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer

Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to

the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President]

was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine

shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294]

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine),

April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards

at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report

came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by

two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I

saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably

something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about

this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside

us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’

and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren

Commission testimony: 12H28]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer

pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President

had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353]

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two

more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back,

all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some

confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand

side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said,

‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told

them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t

say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission

testimony: 7H345]

Edited February 1, 2010 by Jack White

[John Dugan]

You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and

spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came,

well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the

face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap,

and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead

of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been

hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital,

and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead

car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President]

had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with

Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right

side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced

to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car

had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A

motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody

hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief

Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we

had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car

pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to

pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and

Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled

alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief

Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the

incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police

Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I

talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit

Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin:

“Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to

What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything

about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him

[the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service

men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony:

3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened

back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him

and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood

and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that

time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’

or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t

know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer

Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to

the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President]

was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine

shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine),

April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards

at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report

came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by

two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I

saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably

something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about

this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside

us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’

and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren

Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer

pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President

had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two

more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back,

all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some

confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand

side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said,

‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told

them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t

say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission

testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN

So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible.

Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them.

[Jack White]

You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and

spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came,

well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the

face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap,

and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead

of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been

hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital,

and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead

car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President]

had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with

Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right

side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced

to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car

had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A

motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody

hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief

Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we

had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car

pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to

pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and

Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled

alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief

Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the

incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police

Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I

talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit

Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin:

“Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to

What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything

about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him

[the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service

men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony:

3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened

back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him

and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood

and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that

time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’

or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t

know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer

Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to

the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President]

was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine

shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine),

April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards

at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report

came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by

two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I

saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably

something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about

this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside

us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’

and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren

Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer

pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President

had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two

more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back,

all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some

confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand

side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said,

‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told

them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t

say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission

testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN

So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible.

Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them.

You have a cognitive deficiency.

Jack

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

John, Jack has nailed this one down for you. When else do you suppose this happened? The location is specified: before reaching the Triple Underpass he rode ahead of the Presidential car. What is there you don't understand? Suggesting a witness was "clearly mistaken" absent some really good reason is simply begging the question by taking for granted what has to be proven on independent ground. He rode forward. There is no other time and place this could have happened. What, precisely, is your alternative explanation that makes more sense of the data? This is the only one that can explain it.

You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and

spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came,

well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the

face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap,

and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead

of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been

hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital,

and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead

car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President]

had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with

Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right

side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced

to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car

had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A

motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody

hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief

Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we

had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car

pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to

pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and

Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled

alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief

Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the

incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police

Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I

talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit

Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin:

“Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to

What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything

about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him

[the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service

men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony:

3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened

back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him

and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood

and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that

time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’

or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t

know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer

Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to

the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President]

was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine

shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine),

April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards

at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report

came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by

two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I

saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably

something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about

this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside

us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’

and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren

Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer

pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President

had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two

more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back,

all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some

confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand

side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said,

‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told

them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t

say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission

testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN

So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible.

Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them.

Edited February 1, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jerry Logan]

Ah Jim.....see how that sneaks in there with hardly a nod or wink? The underpass in the witness statement becomes the Triple underpass in your restatement. Any thoughts on why that might be misleading?

Jerry

John, Jack has nailed this one down for you. When else do you suppose this happened? The location is specified: before reaching the Triple Underpass he rode ahead of the Presidential car. What is there you don't understand? Suggesting a witness was "clearly mistaken" absent some really good reason is simply begging the question by taking for granted what has to be proven on independent ground. He rode forward. There is no other time and place this could have happened. What, precisely, is your alternative explanation that makes more sense of the data? This is the only one that can explain it.

You are not familiar with what the witnesses said...

Motorcycle police officer Chaney rode up to the lead car and

spoke to Police Chief Jesse Curry. NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 22, 1963: “Then the, uh, second shot came,

well then I looked back just in time to see the President struck in the

face by the second bullet. He slumped forward into Mrs. Kennedy’s lap,

and uh, it was apparent to me that we’re being fired upon. I went ahead

of the President’s car to inform Chief Curry that the President had been

hit. NO LOCATION GIVENAnd then he instructed us over the air to take him to Parkland Hospital,

and he had Parkland standing by. I went on up ahead of the—[lead

car]—to notify the officer that was leading the escort that he [the President]

had been hit and we’re going to have to move out.” [interview with

Bill Lord of ABC News for WFAA-TV, as quoted in Trask, That Day in Dallas]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), November 23, 1963: “The motorcycle officer on the right

side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward, and announced

to the Chief that the President had been shot.” [Daily News report] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), November 28, 1963: “I noted that the President’s car

had axcelerated [sic] its speed and was closing fast the gap between us. A

motorcycle pulled up alongside of the car and Chief Curry yelled ‘Is anybody

hurt?’, to which the officer replied in the affirmative, and Chief

Curry immediately broadcast to surround the building.By that time we

had gotten just about under the underpass when the President’s car

pulled up alongside, CLEARLY MISTAKEN and at that time Chief Curry’s car had started to

pick up speed, and someone yelled to get to the nearest hospital, and

Chief Curry broadcast for the hospital to be ready.” [statement: 21H548]

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), December 1, 1963: “A motorcycle escort officer pulled

alongside our Lead Car and said the President had been shot. Chief

Curry gave a signal over his radio for police to converge on the area of the

incident.” [statement: CE772: 17H632] NO LOCATION GIVEN

James Chaney (motorcycle policeman, on the right rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), from the testimony of Marrion Baker (Dallas Police

Officer, on Houston Street when the shots started), March 25, 1964: “I

talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit

Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor. (Mr. Belin:

“Where was he?”) Mr. Baker: “He was on the right rear to the car or to

What Happened on Elm Street? 86 The Eyewitnesses Speak

ASSASSINATION RESEARCH / Vol. 5 No. 1 © Copyright 2007 John P. Costella

the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn’t know anything

about this [the shooting], and he [Chaney] moved up and told him

[the chief], and then that was during the time that the Secret Service

men were trying to get in the car ….” [Warren Commission testimony:

3H266] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), April 8, 1964: “… when President Kennedy straightened

back up in the car the bullet hit him in the head, the one that killed him

and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood

and brain, and kind of a bloody water. It wasn’t really blood. And at that

time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say, ‘Get going,’

or ‘get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t

know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer

Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to

the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President]

was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine

shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Chief Jesse Curry (in lead car, in front of the Presidential limousine),

April 15, 1964: “I heard a sharp report. We were near the railroad yards

at the time, and I didn’t know—I didn’t know exactly where this report

came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by

two more reports, and at that time I looked in my rear view mirror and I

saw some commotion in the President’s caravan and realized that probably

something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about

this time a motorcycle officer, I believe it was Officer Chaney rode up beside

us and I asked if something happened back there and he said, ‘Yes,’

and I said, ‘Has somebody been shot?’ And he said, ‘I think so.’ ” [Warren

Commission testimony: 12H28] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Winston Lawson (Secret Service agent, in the lead car ahead of the Presidential

limousine), April 23, 1964: “… I recall noting a police officer

pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the President

had been hit.” [Warren Commission testimony: 4H353] NO LOCATION GIVEN

Forrest Sorrels (Secret Service agent, in the lead car in front of the Presidential

limousine), May 7, 1964: “Within about 3 seconds, there were two

more similar reports. And I said, ‘Let’s get out of here’ and looked back,

all the way back, then, to where the President’s car was, and I saw some

confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.

And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand

side and the chief yelled to him, ‘Anybody hurt?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ He said,

‘Lead us to the hospital.’ And the chief took his microphone and told

them to alert the hospital, and said, ‘Surround the building.’ He didn’t

say what building. He just said, ‘Surround the building.’ ” [Warren Commission

testimony: 7H345] NO LOCATION GIVEN

So you have 9 statements that yield no location or proximity and one that says "just about to the underpass". There wasn't enough time for them to drive up before the overpass and yell something and still be in the Z-film. Not possible.

Like I said, there are plenty of other anomalies in the Z-film that call into question its authenticity......and not seeing the cops drive up along the lead car......isn't one of them.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Jerry Logan

[Don Jeffries]

This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film.

[Jerry Logan]

This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film.

Don,

You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland.

This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp.

Jerry

[Robin Unger]

Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass.

[Jack White]

This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film.

Don,

You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland.

This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp.

Jerry

Jerry's sense of comprehension is lacking. He needs to reread the statements.

He is using a lawyerly technique of twisting semantics.

Plus there is only ONE UNDERPASS there; nobody would mistake a high

freeway bridge for an underpass.

Jack

[David Andrews]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential

limousine), April 8, 1964: “And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard someone say,

‘Get going,’——” (Mr. Stern: “Someone inside——”) Mr. Hargis: “I don’t

know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer

Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to

the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he [the President]

was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine

shot off ….” [Warren Commission testimony: 6H294] NO LOCATION GIVEN

+++

It makes sense that Greer's visual impetus to beat it would be not only seeing the head wounding, but seeing the motorcycle break formation faster than he did. Gotta go! Save my hide, at least.

Edited February 1, 2010 by David Andrews

[Chris Scally]

Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass.

Robin:

I think what we see here is the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs. The second "underpass" is even further west of this gantry, and is where Elm goes under the Stemmons Freeway before entering the northbound on-ramp, and it was only when they reached that on-ramp that Chaney caught up with Curry.

Chris.

[Jerry Logan]

This is semantic quibbling to an absurd degree. Any reasonable person would infer that all these witnesses were talking about something that happened only instants after the shooting. As such, Jim and Jack just as reasonably question why we don't see any evidence of this in the Zapruder film.

Don,

You are correct. Someone might infer from these statements that the ride forward happened only instants after the shooting. However, when asked directly, Chief Curry said Chaney caught up with the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp. Officer Earl Brown witnessed the lead car and Chaney meeting on the Stemmons on ramp. And the Stemmons on ramp is immediately after the second underpass on the way to Parkland.

This Altgens photo ran before the Zapruder film was developed and this McIntire photo was never in the hands of any government agency. I suggest you don't see Chaney near the lead car in either of these unaltered photos for the same same reason you don't see it in the Zapruder film - Chaney didn't reach the lead car until the Stemmons on ramp.

Jerry

Jerry's sense of comprehension is lacking. He needs to reread the statements.

He is using a lawyerly technique of twisting semantics.

Plus there is only ONE UNDERPASS there; nobody would mistake a high

freeway bridge for an underpass.

Jack

Jack,

I think what you must have meant to write is that nobody would use the word underpass just like it's defined in every common dictionary.

For instance, because it's quick and easy, the only definition of underpass in the Merriam-Webster online edition....

"a crossing of a highway and another way (as a road or railroad) at different levels; also : the lower level of such a crossing"

It may be that when you go under a highway bridge through an underpass you don't think you're in an underpass. Many others do, including the people who write dictionaries.

I was surprised that you didn't make any comment on the Altgens and McIntire photos. Any idea how Chaney managed to avoid appearing in those?

And when Chief Curry and Officer Brown said Chaney met the lead car on the Stemmons on ramp they really meant under the triple underpass?

I know I'm showing an astounding lack of comprehension by using common words as they're commonly used and presenting clear photos. Please forgive the lawyer in me.

Jerry

Edited February 1, 2010 by Jerry Logan

[Jerry Logan]

Daniel film showing the limo as it reaches the second underpass.

Robin:

I think what we see here is the overhead gantry, to the west of the Triple Underpass, on which there are/were traffic signs. The second "underpass" is even further west of this gantry, and is where Elm goes under the Stemmons Freeway before entering the northbound on-ramp, and it was only when they reached that on-ramp that Chaney caught up with Curry.

Chris.

Chris,

You're right. Here's a photo showing the second underpass.

In 1963 you had to pass under three lanes of freeway to get to the Stemmons on ramp from Dealey Plaza.

Best to you,

Jerry

Edited February 1, 2010 by Jerry Logan

[John Dolva]

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle policeman on the left rear fender of the Presidential limousine), April 8, 1964:

Hargis:

And at that time the Presidential car slowed down.(it did) I heard someone say ‘Get going,’ (if it was said, not shouted, then it seems to me more likely to be from the SS car, and Clint did)

Mr. Stern:

Someone inside...

Mr. Hargis:

I don’t know whether it was the Secret Service car.(but knew the answer was important)

And I remembered seeing Officer Chaney.(which he did)

Chaney put his motor in first gear (which he heard) and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through (which he came to know and repeated)

and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off (which it did)

_________

Wonder how a drag race between (which was running very hot by now, possibly near regular backfiring point) the Limo and a that Harley at exactly the inclination, momentum etc would go? What was the rated Limo 0-100 (as a bench line)? Ditto that Harley.