Motorcycle Officers "Martin & Chaney"

[Pat Speer]

trouble is dean anything is possible...but as i have seen it correct me jack if in error, but sitzman only mentioned the black couple after the bdgmn had been found, and at first it was 1 coke bottle that then became two, also there are many differences within her stories recall...she ran down the slope spoke to two men she thought were fbi i believe, then ran back up none of this is seen within the films, zapruder got down off the pedestal and zapruder went back to his office leaving her staNDING ALONE ON THE PEDESTAL WE DO NOT SEE THAT EITHER sorry caps... we do have one photo of her speaking with one reporter after on the sidewalk.below the pergola...and a couple of them near the tsbd standing close to beatrice hester on their way back to the office...in the tape she says two men followed her back to the office and she was very frightened, but i have never found any men immediately near or watching her at the tsbd...the tape she made some years later with her doctor a psychatrist...that i believe is still for sale..in that she relates info that does not, well fit the picture...i have done as deep a study as i could on her as far as i could go...i hit a blank wall when i contacted dallas i had been informed there were two researchers there who had done studies on her information but they were not willing apparently to share release or print what info they had found it all ended there another endeavour on a sour note amongst some that perhaps did not or do not want her possible information being released as it still has not been.so it makes one wonder ...fwiw...b

Bernice, if you have a transcript of that latter-day interview, or have some exact quotes, I'd like to add it to my collection of Sitzman quotes. (Note that she, as Newman and Zapruder, claimed she saw an impact between Kennedy's eye and ear on 11-22, and did not notice an impact or defect on the back of his head.)

Marilyn Sitzman stood beside her boss Abraham Zapruder. (11-22-63 notes on an interview of Sitzman by a Dallas Times-Herald reporter, as presented in The Zapruder Film by David Wrone, 2003) "Shot hit pres. Right in the temple." (11-23-63 report of Deputy Wiseman, 19H535) “I talked to a Marilyn Sitzman… She said the shots came from…the old Sexton Building.” (11-29-66 interview with Josiah Thompson) “There was nothing unusual until the first sound, which I thought was a firecracker, mainly because of the reaction of President Kennedy. He put his hands up to guard his face and leaned to the left…And the next thing I remembered correct…clearly was the shot that hit him directly in front of us, or almost directly in front of us, that hit him on the side of his fa…” (When asked where the bullet struck) “I would say it’d be above the ear and to the front…between the eye and the ear…And we could see his brains come out, you know, his head opening…And as far as the sound of the shots go, the first one, as I said, sounded like a firecracker, and the second one that I heard sounded the same…the loudest thing I heard that afternoon was the siren…” (Life Magazine, November 1983) "They had just come down the hill. I heard shots, and I thought, firecrackers. All I could see was his hands going up. Then he was right in front of us...The last shot got him in the head. Everybody was on the ground, and Mr. Z was gone. There had been gunshots, and I was standing there all by myself." (The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) “Finally, they come around the corner, and start coming down, and they’re you know waving at everybody, and then we heard what to me sounded like two firecrackers. You know it was starting to get a little confusing because you could see things happening in the car. And you couldn’t quite get what was happening until they got right here in front of us and the third shot hit Mr. Kennedy right in his head. We knew what happened." (6-29-93 oral history for the Sixth Floor Museum) “(We) went over to where that concrete pergola was, and we decided that would be the best place... [Mr. Zapruder] said, "You'll have to stand behind me and hold onto me." So, we both got up there, and I...held on to him. I only remember when they started...turning into the street, he said, "OK, here we go." That's when I remember he started actually doing the filming. Yeah...They turned the corner, and they started coming down. And the first thing I remember hearing was what I thought was firecrackers because Kennedy threw his hands up, and I heard “bang, bang.” Now, there could have been a third “bang,” I can’t swear to that one. But I know there were two “bangs” very close together, and I thought they were firecrackers because his arms were going into the air, and it was way off to my left and above. So, you know, I’m just kind of like… what a stupid thing to throw firecrackers, and as they came down… the last shot that we heard was right in front of us and it was like the same sound—far off and to the left—but I saw his head open up and I saw the brains coming up. So, of course, by this time, I knew it wasn’t firecrackers. But those were the only sounds I heard."

[Robin Unger]

Dean

There is one hurdle in the mother & child = BDM story

The "woman & child" can clearly be seen in Couch, and in one of the Murray photo's in front of the TSBD.

if the man was indeed her husband, than you would expext to see them together in these photo's, but we don't, the Darnell man is no where to be seen.

This bothers me, if the man ran up the steps to protect his wife and child.

In the aftermath photo's they SHOULD still be together. ?

[Robin Unger]

Dean this story actually originated on the Lancer Forum.

Duncan based his study on this thread, he did not come up with the theory !

The theory ORIGINATED with Jeff Rowland's i helped him to expand on it

(I originally posted this image )

robin unger Thu Oct-16-08 08:39 AM

Member since Dec 21st 2004

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#76340, "RE: MAN IN CORNER OF CONCRETE WALL."

In response to Reply # 1

Thu Oct-16-08 08:46 AMby robin unger

Here is a clearer copy i have been working on.

In this version you can see that the woman standing next to the black man appears to have a small child resting on her right hip.

( Jeff then replied )

Jeff Rollins Thu Oct-16-08 12:30 PM

Member since Aug 16th 2005

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#76344, "RE: MAN IN CORNER OF CONCRETE WALL."

In response to Reply # 5

I floated this idea once before with little response. Let’s try again (not trolling, I swear).

Suppose that the African American couple seen by Sitzman had moved towards the steps as the limo is coming down Elm. He stands briefly on the steps while she leans on the wall. The guy in Nix moves pretty quickly after the shots. He could be the man of the couple and she is BDM. Holding the baby could account for the odd shape of the silhouette. There could also be no baby and the woman in the photo is not with the man. Could the woman be BDM and the man be seen in Nix in Sitzman’s story of the couple?

Also, if Trask is correct and this photo is taken prior to the assassination, the people could be those walking from the parking lot towards the plaza. This would be a natural route to take.

Sorry Gary… looks like a toddler to me.

Jeff Rollins

That is what kicked of the Mother & Child theory.

After that Duncan produced his very nice study. !

Please read this thread:

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...7&mode=full

Edited January 22, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Martin Hinrichs]

Here you go:

Nice GIF Martin

However I cant stop looking at CardiganMan lifting his leg and turning to run up the steps

I agree with Duncan that he was returning to the end of the retaining wall where his wife and child are

Mom and Baby are BlackDogMan

Sorry to get off topic

Dean

Thank you very much Dean and Robin.

As we are talking now about BDM, i translated some measurements into Willis5.

Basis are the Topographic Survey map for the HSCA made in 1978 revised in 1981.

Something to ponder on.

BDM crouching behind the wall or a mother of 4' 7" now switched into black clothes, hiding a baby?

best to you

Martin

[Robin Unger]

Dean,

Robin is correct, It's not my theory. I just did an interpretation based on Geoff's theory.

Duncan

Thanks Duncan.

Martin

We have slightly differing views on this one, that's OK friends are allowed to see things differently.

Re-Creation from JFK The Movie

Edited January 22, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Groden Betzner 3 Scan.

Scanned as found ( No Enhancement )

Edited January 22, 2010 by Robin Unger

[Martin Hinrichs]

Martin

We have slightly differing views on this one, that's OK friends are allowed to see things differently.

For sure my friend. Nothing is wrong with this.

The person i argue heavy with (sometimes) is my best friend.

Here for illustrative purposes i placed Sitzman next to BDM.

She is scaled to 90% in my composition cause Sitzman is closer to Willis camera than BDM.

best to you

Martin

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Hi Ray

Here you go:

This is realtime. Frames 38-55. Give it a minute to load.

Not to interrupt the good work on BDM, but I want to thank Martin for these excellent Muchmore Gifs [two pages back]

What strikes me most is the same HEAD SNAP seen in the Zfilm, which some film alterationists NOW claim is an artifact from the alteration process.

To me, these films show that no bullet struck the back of JFK's head, and that the dramatic HEAD SNAP is the result of an exploding bullet to the right side of JFK's head. That bullet was fired from somewhere to the the right front of JFK.

It makes me wonder what the film alterationists are smoking these days.

Edited January 22, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Dean

There is one hurdle in the mother & child = BDM story

The "woman & child" can clearly be seen in Couch, and in one of the Murray photo's in front of the TSBD.

if the man was indeed her husband, than you would expext to see them together in these photo's, but we don't, the Darnell man is no where to be seen.

This bothers me, if the man ran up the steps to protect his wife and child.

In the aftermath photo's they SHOULD still be together. ?

Perhaps the man was on his lunch hour and had to go back to work.

[Martin Hinrichs]

Not to interrupt the good work on BDM, but I want to thank Martin for these excellent Muchmore Gifs [two pages back]

What strikes me most is the same HEAD SNAP seen in the Zfilm, which some film alterationists NOW claim is an artifact from the alteration process.

To me, these films show that no bullet struck the back of JFK's head, and that the dramatic HEAD SNAP is the result of an exploding bullet to the right side of JFK's head. That bullet was fired from somewhere to the the right front of JFK.

It makes me wonder what the film alterationists are smoking these days.

I thank you Raymond.

And i agree whole-heartedly with your comments.

[Dean Hagerman]

Dean

There is one hurdle in the mother & child = BDM story

The "woman & child" can clearly be seen in Couch, and in one of the Murray photo's in front of the TSBD.

if the man was indeed her husband, than you would expext to see them together in these photo's, but we don't, the Darnell man is no where to be seen.

This bothers me, if the man ran up the steps to protect his wife and child.

In the aftermath photo's they SHOULD still be together. ?

Perhaps the man was on his lunch hour and had to go back to work.

I was thinking more along the lines of maybe he was running around behind the fence and the railroad yard looking for a gunman then rejoined his wife back at their position at the bench after he knew her and the baby were ok

And sorry about giving credit to Duncan about coming up with the theory

Thank you Duncan for the great study on the subject

Thank you Jeff and Robin for coming up with/advancing this subject

BDM has always bugged the hell out of me, I have been looking for an answer to BDM for decades

[Bernice Moore]

Well Duncans study is done with the image in Moorman

But when you look at Willis and see how far down the retaining wall BDM is its not a stretch to say that the woman and child moved down to the very end of the wall by the time Moorman took her picture

And it has always bothered me when it is suggested in Willis that Hudson is completly covered by CardiganMan, I have looked at Willis for years and I still think Willis only shows two people on the steps not three

Could CardiganMan have ran down the steps to join Hudson right before the head shot and in between Willis and Moorman? His shape, or his and his wifes shape making the BDM image in Willis/Betzner?

Remember Hudson said there was only one other person on the steps, even though CardiganMan stood next to Hudson the other man on the steps was right in front of Hudson and he is the one who sat down

I think CardiganMan was only standing next to Hudson for a second or two before he turned around and bolted up the steps

Hudson did not notice him because he was focused on the limo

I hope that clears up where i have taken Duncans study

Dean hudson pointed out three men...b

Edited January 22, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Dean Hagerman]

Here is a clearer copy i have been working on.

Thanks for the clear image Robin

I would have to say that I am 100% sure she is holding a child/infant on the side of her hip, you can see the infants feet hanging down on both sides of the mother

[Dean Hagerman]

Dean, when I spoke to Mike Brownlow and Robert Groden in November, I believe they told me that the black couple has been identified, and that their stories will be told in Groden's new book. Now I wish I'd taken some notes.

Thats awesome, if their story fits this scenario then I think it would nail down the BDM mystery

I have always liked Groden (After reading POAL I felt a little different about him but I still respect and like him) and own everything he has ever published/released

I am very excited about his new book and will order it as soon as he makes it avaliable

[Robin Unger]

Dean

There is one hurdle in the mother & child = BDM story

The "woman & child" can clearly be seen in Couch, and in one of the Murray photo's in front of the TSBD.

if the man was indeed her husband, than you would expext to see them together in these photo's, but we don't, the Darnell man is no where to be seen.

This bothers me, if the man ran up the steps to protect his wife and child.

In the aftermath photo's they SHOULD still be together. ?

Perhaps the man was on his lunch hour and had to go back to work.

Hi Todd.

I suppose that is possible, given his concern for his wife and child after the assassination, i think his boss would have understood if he had taken the afternoon off.

From memory i think Hudson said that he worked near Industrial Bulevard, ??