Was JFK really waving?

[Robert Harris]

Robert,

What is the angle of JFK's right arm in Towner?

What is the angle of his arm in the previous frame I posted, which by the way, was the end of a waving sequence.

Here's another part of a video for you, so you can be sure I'm taking this footage from a waving motion.

chris

Chris, I have no idea what angle or frame you are talking about. Why don't you just tell us and make your point?

As for that animation, JFK is not making a fist. I took the last five frames from your animation and brightened them up a bit. I think it's quite obvious that his hand was turned inward but it was not a fist. If it was, then he had a very tiny right hand

Edited November 1, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Bill Miller]

It sure is, Robert.

Why don't you post it, an enlarged single frame which shows this famous unique balled fist?

You are wasting your time with Harris, Duncan. Geesh ... I don't even see this dramatic fall to the left that JFK was supposed to have done. Of course that would be the dramatic reaction to a shot that no witnesses had seen or at least found it necessary to report to anyone. Harris seems to be an individual who gets hung up on one little thing that he thinks he sees and ignors the evidence to the contrary. Just think about it - who in their right mind would think that the President would be reacting to any type of threat when JFK continued smiling and working the crowd as if nothing happened. Harris won't admit that he has gone down a wrong way street.

Bill

[Robert Harris]

It sure is, Robert.

Why don't you post it, an enlarged single frame which shows this famous unique balled fist?

You are wasting your time with Harris, Duncan. Geesh ... I don't even see this dramatic fall to the left that JFK was supposed to have done. Of course that would be the dramatic reaction to a shot that no witnesses had seen or at least found it necessary to report to anyone. Harris seems to be an individual who gets hung up on one little thing that he thinks he sees and ignors the evidence to the contrary. Just think about it - who in their right mind would think that the President would be reacting to any type of threat when JFK continued smiling and working the crowd as if nothing happened. Harris won't admit that he has gone down a wrong way street.

Bill

I can't believe that you and Duncan could be this stupid. Chris Davidson posted a blowup of that frame yesterday which clearly shows JFK's hand in a fist.

And your claim that JFK was happily smiling and waving afterward is just more bullxxxx. Even you must have figured out by now that he never smiled or waved again, after his reactions in the Towner film.

[Kathleen Collins]

What can I say Duncan? To respect the rules of this forum in terms of talking about deliberate lies, there is not a single statement you just made that I can talk about, including your imaginary "fist" in the Jeffries sequence or your pretense that you were being humorous when you agreed that I was a "disinfo agent".

I have no doubt whatsoever that you would also agree with anyone accusing me of anything, from shoplifting to pedophilia. What I really would like to understand, is what is driving you to do this, and please don't drive us into hysterical laughter by claiming it is your fanatical quest for the truth

I agree with Bob. I think Kennedy was stung with a bullet that whizzed by him and was really checking if he'd been hit. Of course it could be glass from the windshield that stung him. Wasn't it the undertaker who said he had minute pieces of glass on his face? I may not be correct here but it looks almost like his forehead is a little bloody. But of course the head shot took away any proof that there was a shot at the turn onto Elm.

Kathy C

[David Andrews]

By any legitimate definition of the term, JFK's hand was in the form of a fist during the Towner film.

Let's see it then.

Certainly. What you don't get is, that while you continue to tell everyone what they don't see, they are staring JFK's fist. A picture is worth a thousand lies, Duncan

How could Greer have claimed to have made an abrupt turn onto Elm to avoid turning onto the street fronting the TSBD? The motorcade route seems to be demarcated by a line of people across Houston at Elm in the beginning of Towner above.

Something has happened in the testimony. I repeat - Something has happened in the testimony...

Edited November 1, 2010 by David Andrews

[Martin Hinrichs]

2-frame GIF

quickly put together GIF approx scaling

Absolutely keen eye Robin

We know now at what marks the SS-100-X made the turn.

Here in this Towner frame you can see the Queen Mary has still it's left front tire slightly rotated,

making the turn bumber at bumper with the limo. Look at the stripe. Just over it.

Even in the re-enactemt the car made a wider turn than the SS-100-X and has no trouble with the Island on Elm.

Watching the Tina Towner film how close and fluent the presidential limo made the turn, let

me believe that Roy Truly was mistaken.

best to you

Martin

[Martin Hinrichs]

It might also be helpful to study JFK's face in a photo taken by Tina's father at the same instant that she was filming his reactions and compare that with his face in Duncan's video.

I don't know what you see in this Towner Still photo, Bob?

Are you aware that there is a serious time gap between the Jim Towner Still photo

and the Tina Towner film frames were JfK raised his right hand?

It is hard to believe that JFK's reaction (alleged) time was that slow.

Martin

[Bill Miller]

I can't believe that you and Duncan could be this stupid. Chris Davidson posted a blowup of that frame yesterday which clearly shows JFK's hand in a fist.

And your claim that JFK was happily smiling and waving afterward is just more bullxxxx. Even you must have figured out by now that he never smiled or waved again, after his reactions in the Towner film.

Robert, Being a disgruntled blow-hard will not make one correct - common sense and good evidence will.

Often times a still image can be deceiving ... this is why film in motion can offer a better interpretation as to what someone is doing. I am sure that if seen by the right angle that someone saluting someone else could look as though they are getting ready to give them a judo chop.

Now about JFK not smiling again ... Mary Woodward who had JFK directly in front of her and the women near her said the President smiled and waved to them just as the first shot rang out. (see Woodward article below) Also seeing that Mary was not so delusional to say that it was Greer who turned and shot the President, I will bet on Mary and what I see in the Zfilm. The clip below shows JFK as he is facing Woodward. Even through a slightly out of focus view that this clip offers ... I can still see JFK smiling. Woodward had the clear view.

http://www.history-m...22-63_0001a.gif

Bill Miller

Edited November 1, 2010 by Bill Miller

[David Andrews]

Mary Woodward was waiting "on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass" when she saw that JFK and Jackie "turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed?"

So she's not at the Houston/Elm corner? And when in Zapruder do we find Jackie turning away from the right side (driver's side) of the limo? Just as her head disappears behind the Stemmons sign?

Let's not dismiss a shot during the limo turn based on some hazy history. let's start picking this apart using the film footage.

Also - is this the Mary Woodward story that she complained her editor rewrote from her original submitted version, distorting her eyewitness account?...

Edited November 2, 2010 by David Andrews

[Robert Harris]

Mary Woodward was waiting "on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass" when she saw that JFK and Jackie "turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed?"

So she's not at the Houston/Elm corner? And when in Zapruder do we find Jackie turning away from the right side (driver's side) of the limo? Just as her head disappears behind the Stemmons sign?

Let's not dismiss a shot during the limo turn based on some hazy history. let's start picking this apart using the film footage.

Also - is this the Mary Woodward story that she complained her editor rewrote from her original submitted version, distorting her eyewitness account?...

David, for over forty years, researchers have looked at frame 133 and thought JFK was cheerfully waving and smiling. They thought the same thing about frame 185, but we now know that he was grimacing and within less than half a second, would be twisted more than 90 degrees to his right and shielding his face with his right hand.

If people like us who have been able to examine these frames a thousand times could be mistaken about JFK "smiling", how could we expect a witness who was looking through the crowd to get a one-time-only brief glimpse at him, be more accurate? The simple fact is, that many witnesses made the same mistake we did, and the Zapruder film proves it.

[Bill Miller]

Mary Woodward was waiting "on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass" when she saw that JFK and Jackie "turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed?"

So she's not at the Houston/Elm corner? And when in Zapruder do we find Jackie turning away from the right side (driver's side) of the limo? Just as her head disappears behind the Stemmons sign?

Let's not dismiss a shot during the limo turn based on some hazy history. let's start picking this apart using the film footage.

Also - is this the Mary Woodward story that she complained her editor rewrote from her original submitted version, distorting her eyewitness account?...

Mary Woodward was standing at the curb with the other witnesses standing along the street. She is seen after the shooting sitting on the grass not far from the Hester's in the Dave Wiegman film. If one studies her on the ground in Wiegman's film, then finding her in Zapruder's film should be easy.

Picking apart the turn onto Elm Street we have been doing .... it was just done again by showing JFK smiling just as Woodward said was happening when the first shot sounded.

Woodward said her editor made some editing changes to her article. The President smiling and waving at Woodward was Mary's own wording ... I know this for I have heard her say the same thing in an interview.

Now unless someone wants to make something sinister out of Woodward ... it appears that JFK did not behave like a man who has been alleged to have been shot at while rounding through the intersection of Elm and Houston. The only evidence offered to support such a claim relied on faulty interpretation, lack of careful study of the photographic record, and not researching the witness statements well enough. Until someone can justify JFK continuing on by waving and smiling at the crowd after allegedly being shot at, then all that is left is to just keep making unfounded allegations based on a man closing his hand before opening it to wave some more.

Bill Miller

[Bill Miller]

If people like us who have been able to examine these frames a thousand times could be mistaken about JFK "smiling", how could we expect a witness who was looking through the crowd to get a one-time-only brief glimpse at him, be more accurate? The simple fact is, that many witnesses made the same mistake we did, and the Zapruder film proves it.

What witness was looking through the crowd at the President ... certainly not Woodward for she was right at the curb and looking at JFK from 15' away verses those who only see JFK on a blurry film shot from about 90' to the limo.

Bill Miller

[David Andrews]

Invoking Mary Woodward's Louella Parsons-like journalese is like me advising you to look at moment 1:09 in this, the great unacknowledged assassination commentary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BJGR09QH7c

[Pat Speer]

If people like us who have been able to examine these frames a thousand times could be mistaken about JFK "smiling", how could we expect a witness who was looking through the crowd to get a one-time-only brief glimpse at him, be more accurate? The simple fact is, that many witnesses made the same mistake we did, and the Zapruder film proves it.

What witness was looking through the crowd at the President ... certainly not Woodward for she was right at the curb and looking at JFK from 15' away verses those who only see JFK on a blurry film shot from about 90' to the limo.

Bill Miller

Mary Woodward (11-23-63 newspaper article Witness From the News Describes Assassination written by Woodward for the Dallas Morning News) "We decided to cross Elm Street and wait there on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass…We had been waiting about half an hour when the first motorcycle escorts came by, followed shortly by the President’s car. The President was looking straight ahead and we were afraid we would not get to see his face. But we started clapping and cheering and both he and Mrs. Kennedy turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us…After acknowledging our cheers, he [JFK] faced forward again and suddenly there was a horrible, ear-splitting noise coming from behind us and a little to the right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke someone had backfired their car. Apparently, the driver and occupants of the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding up, the car came almost to a halt...I don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and looked around, as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun...Then after a moment's pause, there was another shot and I saw the President start slumping in the car. This was followed rapidly by another shot. Mrs. Kennedy stood up in the car, turned halfway around, then fell on top of her husband’s body….The cars behind stopped and several men--Secret Service men,--I suppose-- got out and started rushing forward, obstructing our view of the car…. About ten feet from where we were standing, a man and a woman had thrown their small child to the ground and covered his body with theirs. Apparently the bullets had whizzed directly over their heads.” (12-7-63 FBI report, 24H520) “She stated she was watching President and Mrs. Kennedy closely, and all of her group cheered loudly as they went by. Just as President and Mrs. Kennedy went by, they turned and waved at them. Just a second or two later, she heard a loud noise. At this point, it appeared to her that President and Mrs. Kennedy probably were about one hundred feet from her. There seemed to be a pause of a few seconds, and then there were two more loud noises which she suddenly realized were shots, and she saw President Kennedy fall over and Mrs. Kennedy jumped up and started crawling over the back of the car. She stated that her first reaction was that the shots had been fired from above her head and from possibly behind her.” (12-23-63 FBI report, recounting a 12-5-63 discussion between U.S. Attorney Barefoot Sanders and an FBi agent, CD205, p39) "a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, name unrecalled, has advised him that four of the women working in the Society Section of the Dallas Morning News were reportedly standing next to Mr. Zapruda when the assassination shots were fired. According to this reporter, these women, names unknown, stated that the shots, according to their opinion, came from a direction other than from the Texas School Book Depository Building." (3-24-64 testimony of Mark Lane before the Warren Commission, 2H32-61) “on November 23, 1963, the Dallas Morning News ran a story by Miss Woodward, and I have since that time spoken with Miss Woodward by telephone, and she has confirmed portions--the entire portion which I will quote from now--in her conversation with me. That is, that as she and her three coworkers waited for the President to pass, on the grassy slope just east of the triple overpass, she explained that the President approached and acknowledged their cheers and the cheers of others, "he faced forward again, and suddenly there was an ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the right." Here we have a statement, then, by an employee of the Dallas Morning News, evidently speaking--she indicated to me that she was speaking on behalf of all four employees, all of whom stated that the shots came from the direction of the overpass, which was to their fight, and not at all from the Book Depository Building, which was to their left."

(Interview in The Men Who Killed Kennedy, broadcast 1988) “One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how many shots were there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second and third shot I did see the president being hit. I literally saw his head explode. So, I felt that the shots had come, as I wrote in my article, from behind me and from my right, which would have been the direction of the grassy knoll, and the railroad overpass." (11-21-93 Reporters Remember conference, as quoted in Reporting the Kennedy Assassination). "(We) stationed ourselves just down from the School Book Depository building and waited for the parade to come by.) And we were chatting, and as we were talking, I looked up at the grassy knoll. And I said to my friends, “That's a very dangerous-looking spot to me, it must be, there must be a lot of security up there, because it looks a perfect spot, if somebody wanted to do something. And then the motorcade came along and I couldn't believe it: finally, I'm gonna see Jacqueline Kennedy, and she's looking in the other direction. So I yelled and I said “Please look this way!” And they looked right at us, waved, and at that moment, I heard a very loud noise. And I wasn't sure what it was at that point, and I turned to my friends and asked 'what was that; is some jerk shooting off firecrackers?'’ And, uh, then I heard the second one, and this time I knew what had happened, because I saw the president's motion, and then the third shot came very, very quickly, on top of the second one. And that time, I saw his head blow open, and I very well knew what had happened by that point…we waited for just a few minutes… and walked back to the Dallas Morning News…I started writing my story, and I wrote it exactly as I knew it…And to this day, I think I wrote it correctly…The only thing that I guess I got myself in a little bit of controversy about, I said that the shots appeared to have come from behind me and to my right…I didn’t say they did come from that direction…I had spoken to my friends just prior to the event, suggesting that the grassy knoll would be the perfect spot for an assassin… when it happened, I naturally expected it to have come from where I had predicted it would come from. So in reality, I do believe they did come from the School Book Depository Building. So I get a little bit upset when I get put into the other column...I never spoke to Mark Lane in my life, except to say I couldn’t speak to him.”

Aurelia Alonzo, Margaret Brown, and Ann Donaldson were Woodward’s companions on November 22, 1963. (12-7-63 FBI report, CD7 p.19) “Ann Donaldson…Margaret Brown…and Miss Aurelio Alonzo…were interviewed December 6, 1963…All furnished the same information as that previously furnished by Mary Elizabeth Woodward.” Ann Atterberry (formerly Donaldson) (11-16-03 article in the San Francisco Chronicle travel section) "Jack and Jackie both looked pleased, and relieved," Atterberry said. "As they passed by us they waved, and they both made eye contact with us." Tears moistened her eyes, and her voice cracked. "I've often wondered if the four of us were the last thing he ever saw." At almost the same instant, she heard the first crack of gunfire. "My first reaction was that it was a firecracker," she said. "I thought that was awfully rude. I was just turning to see where the sound came from when I heard the second shot. Just as I realized what it was, I heard the third shot, and then there was no doubt in my mind. We all burst into tears. It was absolute chaos. People on the knoll threw themselves on the ground. A motorcycle fell over and was left in the middle of the street. People were running everywhere." (5-29-2005 article for The Independent on Sunday, found on the BNET Business Network website) "We saw them round the corner and I heard what I thought were firecrackers and looked around to see where the noise came from. I then heard two more shots and saw the motorcade speed away and people fall to the ground. It seemed unreal and then I felt horror. We headed back to the paper crying. Later we were interviewed by the FBI and the CIA. It was only recently that I've been comfortable talking about it because of the negative impact it had on the city of Dallas and on the Dallas Morning News, where I worked until I retired in 1999. In the wake of the assassination the paper was reviled. It had run an ad that morning taken out by a group criticising Kennedy's politics. It affected me deeply, just the mental anguish of it. Most people don't know I was a witness. But I don't wish that I hadn't been there. It was a moment in history and it was one of the most momentous things in my life." (2-17-09 post by Honorfligh...@Aol.com, discussing personal contacts with eyewitnesses, found on the alt.assassination.JFK newsgroup) "I have spoken with one, Ann Atterberry, about 21 years ago. Ann described for us in still mournful detail that approximately one second or so before she heard the first very loud shot JFK then Jackie were both looking towards her and she was absolutely thrilled by that. JFK had also started waving towards her (which thrilled Ann even more) and then JFK made direct eye contact with Ann, THEN the first of 3 shots happened, and JFK immediately quickly reacted to being hit. As anyone can clearly see JFK started his wave only a second or two BEFORE he first "disappeared" behind the sign in the Zapruder film. She also described that one of the shots most definitely came from her right. (she was standing on the sidewalk street curb between the depository and the GK picket fence)."

[Robin Unger]

Mary Woodward was waiting "on the grassy slope just east of the Triple Underpass" when she saw that JFK and Jackie "turned, and smiled and waved, directly at us, it seemed?"

So she's not at the Houston/Elm corner? And when in Zapruder do we find Jackie turning away from the right side (driver's side) of the limo? Just as her head disappears behind the Stemmons sign?

Let's not dismiss a shot during the limo turn based on some hazy history. let's start picking this apart using the film footage.

Also - is this the Mary Woodward story that she complained her editor rewrote from her original submitted version, distorting her eyewitness account?...

Mary Woodward was standing at the curb with the other witnesses standing along the street. She is seen after the shooting sitting on the grass not far from the Hester's in the Dave Wiegman film. If one studies her on the ground in Wiegman's film, then finding her in Zapruder's film should be easy.

Bill Miller

Bill

Are you refering to Cheryl McKinnon ?