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I'll try and make it simple for everyone.

Inside WC document CE884, I have provided the Station No. ( 2+50 ) which is in direct alignment with the sniper's nest. You can check it on the partial plat to the right.

The SS plotted JFK's position in the limo every 25ft, hence the "+" marks on the plat.

The WC used two different locations for measuring to the same spot.

They used Station No. 2+50 and Station C.

Straight line distance from Station 2+50 to frame 161 is 79.2 ft.

Straight line distance from Station C to frame 161 is 94.7ft

The difference between these locations is approx 15.5ft.

That is the approx distance between the front of the limo and JFK in the limo.

I will assume that would have somewhat of an effect on the rifle angles too.

Cheers,

chris

P.S.

More to come.

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I will assume that would have somewhat of an effect on the rifle angles too.

Chris,

I would like to follow this, but you make it very difficult.

You suggest that there were two reference bases that the WC used. O.k. I can follow that but you do not identify them.

I assume that 2+50 is the first cross. However it is not clear at all what is base Station C. I do not see that on you map.

Hence I can make no sense of the point you make that there is a 15.5ft difference between them.

I also note that the distance is calculated is referenced between JFK and the rifle in the Oswald window.

If the Oswald window is not Station C then what is the relationship between Station C and the Oswald window.

I had understood that these references like the one for Z 161 were taken by Robert West who took a measurement from the JFK position back to the rifle in the Oswald window.

And if I am not mistaken is the Z 161 reference wrong and should it not actually be Z 166? I had understood these positions had been changed by the WC

It is clear that you understand the point you want to make but on this, the first post in what I assume is a series, it is already as clear as mud to me.

If I am to follow this I need a lot more explanation.

James.

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James,

There is no Station C plotted on the SS plat of Dec 5th, 1963.

It was left off intensionally, otherwise the problem would be obvious.

Instead, the WC has Shaneyfelt describe it through testimony.

Look at the Station No. for frame 161. It is 3+29.2.

That is 79.2 ft from Station No. 2+50. Which is in direct alignment with the snipers nest.

CE888, the bottom portion of the gif I supplied should read "DISTANCE TO STATION 2+50" = 79.2ft

That would be in alignment with the snipers nest.

It should not be "DISTANCE TO STATION C" = 94.7ft which is 15.5 ft east of the snipers nest.

We don't need a Station C and measurements from it, when we know what the Station No. is for the snipers nest.

This is the beginning of the WC's attempt to hide a 30ft distance, thereby eliminating the shot/ballistics down by Altgen's.

chris

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Chris

So the distance from the SN to Altgens could be measured accurately

Exposing Altgens fluffing of his lines?.

Ian

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James,

1 inch=10ft

Margin of error is up to 1ft.

Does this help?

chris

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Do you have a map which shows station 2, 3 and 4? The horizontal lines show the lane markers?

How do you determine JFK's location relative to the front of the limo?

Ok, I see the horizontal lines are the lane markers.

Edited by Mike Rago
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The straight line distance from the TSBD corner to frame 161 is approx 85ft. Refer to previous partial plat.

I am now providing the straight line distances from the SS/FBI plat created on Dec 5th, 1963 for the SS and later used by the FBI for their Feb-1964 recreation.

Notice the distance to Shot 1 at 171ft. Or 85ft +85ft + (1ft margin of error)

The 313 headshot at elevation 418.35 or 257ft. Distance between Shot 1 and headshot=85ft + (1ft margin of error)

And, Shot 3 at 285ft. Distance between headshot and Shot 3(Altgens) = 28ft.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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It is not clear where those straight line distance are measured from. 171 feet from where to where?

If I measured the angles correctly. That would be about 20° for the first shot, about 15° for the second shot and about 13° for the third shot, measured relative to the slope of Elm street,(not the horizontal)

Well, if their goal is to measure the angle from the SN the 171' might represent the straight line distance from the corner of the TSBD at the sidewalk.

Edited by Mike Rago
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Mike,

That's exactly the point.

Are they from the snipers nest or the corner of the TSBD or Station C.?

Refer back to the first gif I supplied and the problem with measuring from two different points to frame 161.

chris

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Mike,

That's exactly the point.

Are they from the snipers nest or the corner of the TSBD or Station C.?

Refer back to the first gif I supplied and the problem with measuring from two different points to frame 161.

chris

If I measured the angles correctly. That would be about 20° for the first shot, about 15° for the second shot and about 13° for the third shot, measured relative to the slope of Elm street,(not the horizontal). When you factor in the slope of Elm street , 3°, the angle relative to the occupants would be 17°,12° and 10°, assuming the occupants were sitting up straight in the limo. If the occumpants were leaning, the angle of entry will change.

Well, if their goal is to measure the angle from the SN to the president, the 171' might represent the straight line distance from the corner of the TSBD at STATION 2+50 to the president. The second number would be the elevation of the SN above the STATION 2+50 where it intersects the TSBD. The 184' would be the straight line distance from the SN to the president or the third leg of the triangle.

It looks like to me they are measuring the legs of a triangle like this to determine the angle of the shot.

This is just an example. I am sure I do not have the locations exact according to your data.

The 171' would be the bottom leg of the triangle. (or somethng like that)

The 184' would be the hypotenuse of the triangle.(if it were a right triangle)

The end of the yellow line is about 171 feet from the corner of the TSBD directly below the SN window.

Edited by Mike Rago
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The straight line distance from the TSBD corner to frame 161 is approx 85ft. Refer to previous partial plat.

I am now providing the straight line distances from the SS/FBI plat created on Dec 5th, 1963 for the SS and later used by the FBI for their Feb-1964 recreation.

Notice the distance to Shot 1 at 171ft. Or 85ft +85ft + (1ft margin of error)

The 313 headshot at elevation 418.35 or 257ft. Distance between Shot 1 and headshot=85ft + (1ft margin of error)

And, Shot 3 at 285ft. Distance between headshot and Shot 3(Altgens) = 28ft.

chris

I believe someone is laying out a pre-determined scenario.

How does 85ft tie into this?

The distance between Shot 1 and Shot 3 (Altgens) 171ft-285ft or 114ft according to the SS plat.

114ft broken down is 85ft + 29ft.

If you look at CE 560, Eisenberg has the limo traveling between Shot1 and 313 headshot as 5.5 seconds.

5.5 seconds = 100Z frames @18.3 frames per sec. That will be discussed a little later on.

85ft @5.5 seconds = 10.51 mph

Now, add 30ft(distance between 313 headshot and Altgens shot) to the equation.

115ft@5.5 seconds = 14.22 mph

The difference in mph between these two distances is 3.71 mph.

Look at the far top right entry on the Vehicle Speed Analysis.

If you want an exact match, it would be 115.2ft instead of 115ft.

chris

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Why do you keep measuring things relative to 85 feet?

The average speed over the last 29 feet has to be greater than 14.22 mph.

If I did the math right, the average speed over the 29 feet should be 24.8 mph.

If the limo traveled the first 85 feet at a speed of 10.mph and it traveled the total distance of 115 feet at 14.22 mph then the limo must have traveled the last 29 feet at 24.8 mph.(If I did the math right and I am not guaranteeing that)

What do you mean by the "Altgens shot"?

Edited by Mike Rago
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Mike,

The straight line distance from the TSBD corner to frame 161 is approx 85ft. Refer to previous partial plat.

CE884 supplied, what frame does the WC start their measurements with?

CE 560 previously supplied, Eisenberg has the limo traveling 90ft in 5.5 seconds .

How far is it from the snipers nest to the TSBD corner? Probably somewhere close to the difference between 85ft and 90ft. (Check previous plat)

chris

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They start at frame 161.

Station 2+50 is not at the corner of the TSBD. It looks to be at the corner of the SN window.

I am trying to follow your argument. I really am.

You have my interest.

Edited by Mike Rago
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Mike,

Robert West never surveyed in frames 161 and 166.

He actually surveyed in frames 168 and 171.

If you look at the Station No and Elevation in this document and compare it against the CE 884 entries for frame 161, do you see the problem?

chris

P.S.

Thank you Tom Purvis for this one.

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